Atheists raising their children to be religious; I'm screwed

[TheManWithNoName]

Ahh campfire discussions... Gotta love 'em.

An interesting topic came up at my most recent campfire discussion - I heard things I had never heard before, as well as being reminded of things that downright scare the shit out of me.

Everybody at the discussion was an atheist. We didn't really disagree on many issues. Eventually, one disagreement did arise. While on the topic of raising children, one guy stated that even though he was an atheist, he was going to raise his kids as devout Catholics, just as he was raised. Naturally, I was flabbergasted. To my surprise, however, another guy agreed with him. Is this more common than I thought?

Their (ridiculous) reasoning:
- It will give them a solid set of morals to follow.
- When they're old enough, then they can decide for themselves what to follow.
- "I'm pretty sure that's what my parents did, so I'll do that."

When their reasoning was attacked, they always were pressed to add one thing to their argument - "well, with the addition of good parenting...". I told them that you could do fine with just the "good parenting part" alone. I also pointed out how fucked-up the moral system of Catholics is. They responded that religion was needed for order in the child's life, as well as necessary to establish a good sense of right and wrong for the kid. In response, I quickly pointed to the girl sitting next to me, who, despite being raised an atheist, turned out fine. I closed by stating that raising a child to think for themselves rather than blindly follow nonsensical traditions (unquestioningly) was the better path to follow.

Have you heard of atheists raising religious children? Is it more common than I thought?

On a side note, I'm legitimately terrified of what will happen to my children. My parents, being very religious Muslims, do not know of my atheism. If they found out, I'm sure they would not hesitate to literally disown me. I'm not sure how/when I plan on telling them (if ever). Even if I never tell them, I'm sure complications will arise when it comes time for marriage and children. Disregarding the complications of marrying (they're into arranged marriages, only marrying a Muslim, etc.), my children will pose complications. Naturally, I plan on raising them as atheists. I've been told by my parents however, that it is a grave sin to leave Islam, and if any of a Muslim's relatives leave Islam, the entire family is condemned to hell. If they find out about my children being atheists (during a conversation, they find out that their grandchildren don't know any scripture, or basic Islamic history, etc), they would freak the fuck out, to say the least. Not to mention, that would set off a serious chain reaction, causing them to question my faith as well. Honestly, I'm at a complete loss for what to do. Luckily, I've got a lot of time to think - I'm still 18...

[chitoryu12]

I have never heard of ANY atheist ever trying to raise their child with religion. If you went up to them and suggested that a Catholic could raise his son specifically to be an atheist, they would likely laugh in your face.

There is literally no reason for someone to try and raise their children with a different belief system. If an atheist thought that religion gave a good set of morals, he or she would still be following that religion, wouldn't they? As opposed to doing what they think is morally right out of just wanting to be a good person, not because they think that it'll get them in good favor with their god.

The "my parents did it" arguement is also pretty funny. Since when did parents become the all-knowing gods of your life? I have two gods: Idina Menzel and Alan Cumming, and I don't plan on following my mother's way of raising me to a T because I know she screwed up on some things.

[Oskuro]

That's because they aren't truly atheists, just non-practising catholics/christians that will inevitably go back to their pre-programmed ideas for the "important" bits of their lives (getting married, baptism, raising children, funeral,etc).

[Darth Wong]

I have to seriously doubt their sincerity if they claim to be atheists but raise their kids as devout Catholics. That sounds like a load of horseshit. It's more likely that they still believe in God but they know they can't make a logical argument for it, so they don't profess it openly.

Let's put this another way: if someone said he was a devout Catholic but intended to raise his kid as an absolute atheist, wouldn't you wonder if he's lying one way or another?

[Junghalli]

Their (ridiculous) reasoning:
- It will give them a solid set of morals to follow.

And humanist ethics won't?

If anything, humanist ethics seems to me like something that would be easier to teach to a child than religious morality. "It's bad to hurt people" is a more self-evident premise than "it's bad because God doesn't want you to do it", and religious morality tends to be a lot less straightforward, with all sorts of arcane assinine rules that make no sense.

- When they're old enough, then they can decide for themselves what to follow.

And they can't do this if you raise them without religion?

If anything, raising them without religion seems to leave more flexibility in this regard. When the issue comes up just tell them that you don't think God exists, and here's the evidence you base that conclusion on. They can look at it and make their own conclusions. Missionary religions like Catholicism tend to put heavy emphasis on their doctrines being unquestionable truth and telling you you're a bad person if you doubt them.

- "I'm pretty sure that's what my parents did, so I'll do that."

Yay for mindlessly following tradition for no better reason than because it's there!

They responded that religion was needed for order in the child's life, as well as necessary to establish a good sense of right and wrong for the kid.

And humanist ethics can't provide a sense of order and a good sense of right and wrong.

It sounds to me like these people are still hung up on the idea that morality flows from religion. A lot of people seem to have trouble wrapping their minds around the idea that you can build a strong, solid moral system without making it appeal to some kind of higher power (God, karma etc.).

[chitoryu12]

- "I'm pretty sure that's what my parents did, so I'll do that."

Yay for mindlessly following tradition for no better reason than because it's there!
[/quote]

Hence why it's doubtful that they're true atheists. What does religious dogma teach you other than mindlessly following tradition?

[aimless]

It sounds to me like these people are still hung up on the idea that morality flows from religion. A lot of people seem to have trouble wrapping their minds around the idea that you can build a strong, solid moral system without making it appeal to some kind of higher power (God, karma etc.).

I've actually seen this situation come up also, and I'm pretty sure it's due to this. A lot of people don't know enough about a moral system that didn't come from religion. I'm not sure if you can call these people 'true' athiests or not if their desire to teach their children is born of ignorance of anything better.

Also people tend to fall aback on "it worked for me". For at least some people religion ends up doing a pretty good job of teaching morality. I'm an atheist, but my entire experience with religion from childhood was extremely positive and most of the stuff I learned dovetailed nicely with humanist ethics.

[Darth Wong]

Honestly, I have to believe that these people must be rather stupid if they say they're atheists but they honestly can't figure out how someone can possibly teach ethics without some kind of religious aspect. Hell, you can easily buy books on the subject; it seems to me that these people must be either lying or intellectually lazy as hell.

[Lagmonster]

Honestly, I have to believe that these people must be rather stupid if they say they're atheists but they honestly can't figure out how someone can possibly teach ethics without some kind of religious aspect. Hell, you can easily buy books on the subject; it seems to me that these people must be either lying or intellectually lazy as hell.

Hmm; I wonder if these people just couldn't care less about superstition, but are looking to the community itself as an ethical role model, rather than the religion. I've been introduced to a moderate Catholic congregation which is on the surface polite, cheery, charitable and compassionate to their own kind. If someone grew up with fond memories or good experiences with a congregation, they might think that kind of community is good for their own kids, and figures that they'll outgrow the god portion of it the way kids outgrow Santa.

[Darth Wong]

Honestly, I have to believe that these people must be rather stupid if they say they're atheists but they honestly can't figure out how someone can possibly teach ethics without some kind of religious aspect. Hell, you can easily buy books on the subject; it seems to me that these people must be either lying or intellectually lazy as hell.

Hmm; I wonder if these people just couldn't care less about superstition, but are looking to the community itself as an ethical role model, rather than the religion. I've been introduced to a moderate Catholic congregation which is on the surface polite, cheery, charitable and compassionate to their own kind. If someone grew up with fond memories or good experiences with a congregation, they might think that kind of community is good for their own kids, and figures that they'll outgrow the god portion of it the way kids outgrow Santa.

Perhaps it helps to be a somewhat weak-willed person. Such a person actually relishes the comfort factor of being in a large like-minded group which gives grounding and confidence to their moral views. Strong-willed people like me chafe badly in such an environment, because if we have any disagreement with the group, we want to air it out and discuss it, and they don't like that. People like me become a "disruptive element" in their harmony, and conversely, we view the group as a stifling, oppressive environment. But someone who actually enjoys being led around will feel much differently; for such a person the group provides a safe, reassuring environment.

[Rye]

They'll be intellectually lazy with a good dash of overhanging catholic guilt and conditioned responses. I think it's entirely likely the whole process is hollow and atheistic for them. You don't need intelligence or logic to arrive at an atheistic conclusion, apathy and being unconvinced due to the enormous amounts of bullshit in catholicism is enough for some people. They could indeed be atheists, but they're lapsed catholics first.

[Patrick Degan]

Honestly, I have to believe that these people must be rather stupid if they say they're atheists but they honestly can't figure out how someone can possibly teach ethics without some kind of religious aspect. Hell, you can easily buy books on the subject; it seems to me that these people must be either lying or intellectually lazy as hell.

When it comes to my little five year old, I always phrase moral dilemmas and situations in terms of "is that the way you would want to be treated?" or "do you think that's fair to everybody?". Pretty basic, I know, but I've been quite able to avoid dragging the Invisible Cloud-Being into the issue.

[jcow79]

Assuming these atheists aren't just sheep in wolfs clothing, perhaps they feel that 'becoming' atheist was a rite of passage in of itself. The fact that they were exposed to the dogmatic teachings of their religions but were still able to outgrow it gives them pride? There is some satisfaction in giving your child a difficult task and watching them achieve it on their own.

And there is always the "I was raised this way and I turned out ok" mentality. To raise their child drastically dissimilar from their own upbringing might appear to pose a risk they just aren't willing to take.

However I think I lean a bit more towards them not being as reformed as they claim.

[Kar Kar]

They could also be getting a lot of pressure from family members as well to raise them in a religious institution.

Take TheManWithNoName's side note about his parents. We all know where that's going to go. In that situation most people would give in and appease their relatives. I'm not sure if that's something they'd readily admit either.

[Glom]

On a side note, I'm legitimately terrified of what will happen to my children. My parents, being very religious Muslims, do not know of my atheism. If they found out, I'm sure they would not hesitate to literally disown me. I'm not sure how/when I plan on telling them (if ever).

They're not into scifi web forums are they? Because if they are, you may be screwed.

[Stark]

Is this just the 'I'll beat my kids at suppertime, my dad did that and I turned out fine' thing? It could also be simple cowardice - that these people are atheists themselves, but are totally broken by their religious upbringing that they either can't concieve or doubt the success of doing it any other way.

[Teebs]

I got a bit of (very mild) religious upbringing in my life (my mum's an agnostic and my dad's an atheist) but that was mostly to placate the grandparents and a bit at one point to get me into a local Catholic school which was better than the other state schools. Any impact was mitigated by my parents' tendency to teach me logical thinking and to take the piss out of the church and religion at any opportunity.

[speaker-to-trolls]

Maybe their thinking is that children need to be told that things are right/wrong because of absolute rules set down by a higher power because abstract reasoning is too, well, abstract for them. I don't know if this is what they're thinking and I think it's pretty bad logic if it is, because arguing that something is wrong because God says so is basically no difference than saying 'because I say so'.

There is literally no reason for someone to try and raise their children with a different belief system. If an atheist thought that religion gave a good set of morals, he or she would still be following that religion, wouldn't they? As opposed to doing what they think is morally right out of just wanting to be a good person, not because they think that it'll get them in good favor with their god.

This I've got to take issue with, it's entirely possible to think that the list of Ten Special Things that the invisible man wants you to do are good rules to live by without believing in the invisible man himself (to some extent this even applies to the rules that only relate to the invisible man, a lot of atheists will still say that religion and religious traditions/ideas deserve your respect).

[Lagmonster]

Perhaps it helps to be a somewhat weak-willed person. Such a person actually relishes the comfort factor of being in a large like-minded group which gives grounding and confidence to their moral views. Strong-willed people like me chafe badly in such an environment, because if we have any disagreement with the group, we want to air it out and discuss it, and they don't like that. People like me become a "disruptive element" in their harmony, and conversely, we view the group as a stifling, oppressive environment. But someone who actually enjoys being led around will feel much differently; for such a person the group provides a safe, reassuring environment.

It certainly seems plausible; I remember my tenure as a mod over at Internet Infidels several years ago where there were a slew of new deconverts who lacked support among family and friends and who were absolutely desperate for the atheist equivalent of a congregation, seeking out Unitarian Universalist churches for the most part because they needed a replacement for the feeling of tribal belonging.

[Oskuro]

Strong-willed people like me chafe badly in such an environment, because if we have any disagreement with the group, we want to air it out and discuss it, and they don't like that. People like me become a "disruptive element" in their harmony, and conversely, we view the group as a stifling, oppressive environment.

Strong-willed certainly sounds better than disruptive and asocial. I'll be sure to use this argument next time I try to explain why I don't last long with stagnant social groups.

Now, if I may, bowing to social pressure is hardcoded in our brains, and breaking off from that is tough. But, is being socially acceptable better? No, not better. Faster, easier, more tempting, but not better. Once you start down the path, forever will it dominate your destiny

[Styphon]

Personal anecdote: I just got off the phone with my sister. She's supposed to be the only other atheist in the family, but she just told me that she's sending my niece to vacation bible school. Her reasoning? "Well it's free, and we had fun when we were kids, right?" At this point, I was so disgusted with her that words literally failed me and I just grumbled and growled into the phone until she hung up.

[Civil War Man]

Maybe their thinking is that children need to be told that things are right/wrong because of absolute rules set down by a higher power because abstract reasoning is too, well, abstract for them.

I don't know about other people, but "would you like it if someone did that to you?" and "you shouldn't do that because it's mean" were not too abstract for me when I was young. If anything, I found the concept of an omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent being to be a much harder concept to grasp.

Being from a state with a very high Catholic population, I can say that the people in the OP sound like textbook examples of lapsed Catholics. People who think they are atheist because they stopped going to church, or are upset that something bad happened to them, or became disillusioned by things like holy wars or (since we're talking Catholic) the whole molesting priests debacle.

[DrMckay]

It's an interesting question. I was raised in a household that practices Reform Judaism. Both my parents were college-educated, and believe in the rationality of science. I do not consider myself religious, or a believer in a higher power, but I do consider myself Jewish-a member of a select group of people formed largely from persecution that does not exist to the same degree in this country today.


Ultimately, my parents are responsible for the morals I developed, but being part of a minority group from birth has led me to be more aware of the struggles lead by other minority groups from a very early age.

This understandably leads to a crisis of identity.

Much of the religious schooling I had was debating practical morality, and questions of the world, not "God wants x, y, or z..."

I am glad of the upbringing I had, but am unsure whether or not I would want to pass it on to my children.

Again, an excellent question.

[Soldier of Entropy]

DrMcKay, I am in a similar situation, except that I was raised as a Conservative (but not Conservadox, and also not conservative politically) Jew, but joined a Zionist-Socialist-Jewish youth movement around age 13 (I might have been 12; I don't remember). As a result, my younger education was fairly liberalized and non-God-centric, though due to the wide variation in Conservative viewpoints allowed by the movement, some of my teachers were more God-heavy in the morality than others. However, my post-Bar-Mitzvah Jewish education from the youth group barely mentioned God, putting an emphasis on what was best for the most. In addition, I currently consider myself an Atheist by religion and a Jew by culture.

As a result, I now cannot decide whether I will want to raise any future children I may have as Atheists sans Jewish influence or as Reconstructionist or Humanist Jews, or something of that nature.

[Nephtys]

I never understood how people can say (aside from speaking from irrationality), how religious-based ethics are in any way superior to humanist ethics. Christian religious-based ethics are a form of carrot and stick. You do 'good' things, even if they may be actually evil (Burn the witch!) and get rewarded in the sky, or you do 'bad' things and get punished in the sky.

How is that at all any 'better' than just doing a good thing because it's good for people, society, etc... and restraining yourself from doing bad things, because it's... bad?

It sounds like plain laziness. "It's too hard to teach kids how to be good because that benefits everyone, so we'll make sure they think they have a holy gun aimed at their heads at all times."

---

These types also seem to fail to understand what 'not believing in a god or gods' mean. They seem to think it means 'Oh, god screwed me over, so I don't trust him', rather than 'There really is no rational reason at all to put any weight in the theory of an invisible entity with magic powers controlling everything'.