Tax height?

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aerius
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Re: Tax height?

Post by aerius »

Surlethe wrote:There's something a little bit subtler than simply measuring proven ability to pay here: this is, in some sense, a measure of how hard has someone worked to gain what he earns. It seems to me that if a six-foot man and a five-foot man, otherwise identical, both make $180000 per year, the six-foot man has not had to work as hard to attain his job because there are social advantages attached to being of above-average height. So if we wish to move the situation closer to a meritocracy, it makes sense to tax the six-foot man and subsidize the five-foot man so that their incomes reflect the effort they have to put into earning money. (Note that this would augment an already-progressive system; the tax code would already target those who have ability to pay.)
Mankiw is being stupid again if this is what he's trying to prove. There are literally a million variables which influence potential earnings and how hard someone has to work to achieve a given income. Did you know that stock market traders with longer ring fingers have higher earnings? Or maybe something obvious like porn stars with bigger dicks getting paid more, I guess I should be getting a large subsidy if I ever decide to enter that industry. And maybe Susan Boyle will get a million dollar subsidy for doing porn while my wife gets taxed at 95% for modeling swimsuits. Oh, and since my wife was raised by a richer family than mine and had more opportunities to learn & do stuff, does that mean she gets whacked with an extra 20% tax compared to myself? And does this mean some guy who grew up in a ghetto gets a $50k gift every year even if he works part time at a Mickey D's?

2 big problems here, you're taxing potential instead of actual earnings, and the metric used to measure potential and "work required" is heavily flawed. On top that the system can be easily gamed like a motherfucker, and the more measures they want to add to make it "fair" the easier it gets for people to game the system to their advantage.

At best it's a flawed thought experiment, like that dumbass plan he proposed where he'd declare every FRN ending with a certain digit in its serial number to be invalid at the end of the year as a workable monetary policy to allow negative interest rates. Which would of course fix the economy and make everything good again. :roll: More like the shotguns would come out and he'd get strung from a tree.
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Re: Tax height?

Post by Dooey Jo »

Darth Wong wrote:What about family connections, which have an enormous impact on wealth? How about physical attractiveness, which is also correlated to success? Should we tax beauty? How about race? Should we have a special "white person" tax?
Or maybe a special tax for being male. Which, incidentally, is exactly what some hard-line feminists in this country argued a while back; that men have it much easier than women and should therefore be taxed. Can't say that taxing tall people would be much better (hell, it would be worse, since the difference between men and women is greater than between tall and short people, I'm sure). I don't see why taxes should reflect how deserving people are of their money, as opposed to simply how much money they have.
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Re: Tax height?

Post by Steel »

Surlethe wrote:So if we wish to move the situation closer to a meritocracy ...
Woah there! A meritocracy should reward output not input. If the tall person is earning more then it is because they are percieved to offer a superior service in some form in the eyes of people who are responsible for judging merit: those who award salaries. The pretty models are paid more because they are better at the job because of their attributes, you shouldnt provide an "ugly model bonus" to those who provide an inferior service.

Tall people are paid more for a reason, whether its due to advantages in social situations making them better in presentations or business negotiations or whatever it is in the job, someone thought that paying them more was justified by their performance.

Also, guess what? Tall people are taxed more on average already!
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Re: Tax height?

Post by Darth Wong »

Steel wrote:
Surlethe wrote:So if we wish to move the situation closer to a meritocracy ...
Woah there! A meritocracy should reward output not input. If the tall person is earning more then it is because they are percieved to offer a superior service in some form in the eyes of people who are responsible for judging merit: those who award salaries. The pretty models are paid more because they are better at the job because of their attributes, you shouldnt provide an "ugly model bonus" to those who provide an inferior service.

Tall people are paid more for a reason, whether its due to advantages in social situations making them better in presentations or business negotiations or whatever it is in the job, someone thought that paying them more was justified by their performance.

Also, guess what? Tall people are taxed more on average already!
That's going too far the other way. You're assuming that the reason for the extra pay of tall people is necessary a good one. It doesn't have to be. In fact, our economy has never been a social meritocracy, in the sense that it rewards social merit in any way, shape, or form. Quite the opposite, in fact: our economic system tends to reward the most ruthless assholes the most. Take a look at bank executives for example. Man for man, these are the most destructive individuals in our entire society, yet they get rewarded the most.
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Re: Tax height?

Post by Uraniun235 »

dumbass wrote:All currency with a serial number ending in that digit would no longer be legal tender. Suddenly, the expected return to holding currency would become negative 10 percent.
What the fuck? How... how would that even work? Nobody keeps huge amounts of cash! And the Times published this shit?!


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Re: Tax height?

Post by Rahvin »

If a physically attractive person is disfigured in an accident, does his/her tax bracket change?

I was significantly shorter when I began working than I am now as an adult. Would my tax bracket increase?

What about the other costs associated with above or below-average height? At 6'6", I'm statistically far more likely to experience back and joint trouble than the average person. I already pay more for my clothes than the average person, I pay more for food because of my larger size, etc. Are any of these things addressed in how hard I may or may not have to "work" to achieve my level of income?
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Re: Tax height?

Post by Starglider »

Rahvin wrote:If a physically attractive person is disfigured in an accident, does his/her tax bracket change?
I don't see how this is even useful to debate. The costs of implementing such ludicrous tax policies, both direct (as if the US tax code isn't already bloated enough) and indirect (the amount of resentment, massive tax dodging/gaming and social consequences) make them blatantly not worthwhile even if they do manage to correct some minor ethical issue (e.g. ~1% pay differentials). The expected utility of the discussion is thus approaching zero. ;)
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Re: Tax height?

Post by Rahvin »

Starglider wrote:
Rahvin wrote:If a physically attractive person is disfigured in an accident, does his/her tax bracket change?
I don't see how this is even useful to debate. The costs of implementing such ludicrous tax policies, both direct (as if the US tax code isn't already bloated enough) and indirect (the amount of resentment, massive tax dodging/gaming and social consequences) make them blatantly not worthwhile even if they do manage to correct some minor ethical issue (e.g. ~1% pay differentials). The expected utility of the discussion is thus approaching zero. ;)

I completely agree. The notion of taxation based on physical characteristics that may have a statistical correlation to increased income would needlessly add untold complexity and bloat to any tax system - a massive detriment to society to correct for a relatively small disparity.
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Post by Patrick Degan »

aerius wrote:
Surlethe wrote:There's something a little bit subtler than simply measuring proven ability to pay here: this is, in some sense, a measure of how hard has someone worked to gain what he earns. It seems to me that if a six-foot man and a five-foot man, otherwise identical, both make $180000 per year, the six-foot man has not had to work as hard to attain his job because there are social advantages attached to being of above-average height. So if we wish to move the situation closer to a meritocracy, it makes sense to tax the six-foot man and subsidize the five-foot man so that their incomes reflect the effort they have to put into earning money. (Note that this would augment an already-progressive system; the tax code would already target those who have ability to pay.)
Mankiw is being stupid again if this is what he's trying to prove.
No, Mankiw thinks he's channeling Jonathan Swift ala A Modest Proposal. His approach is to show progressive taxation as being unjust and unfair as a concept: taxing people by height is simply the absurd "example" spun forth to illustrate his moral. The game is given away in the last paragraph as he summarises his thesis:
THE OPTIMAL TAXATION OF HEIGHT: A CASE STUDY OF UTILITARIAN INCOME REDISTRIBUTION pp 15-16 wrote:III Conclusion

The problem addressed in this paper is a classic one: the optimal redistribution of income. A Utilitarian social planner would like to transfer resources from high-ability individuals to low-ability individuals, but he is constrained by the fact that he cannot directly observe ability. In conventional analysis, the planner observes only income, which depends on ability and effort, and is deterred from the fully egalitarian outcome because taxing income discourages effort. If the planner's problem is made more realistic by allowing him to observe other variables correlated with ability, such as height, he should use those other variables in addition to income for setting optimal policy. Our calculations show that a Utilitarian social planner should levy a sizeable tax on height. A tall person making $50,000 should pay about $4,500 more in taxes than a short person making the same income.

Height is, of course, only one of many possible personal characteristics that are correlated with a person's opportunities to produce income. In this paper, we have avoided these other variables, such as race and gender, because they are intertwined with a long history of discrimination. In light of this history, any discussion of using these variables in tax policy would raise various political and philosophical issues that go beyond the scope of this paper. But if a height tax is deemed acceptable, tax analysts should entertain the possibility of using other such tags as well. As scientific knowledge advances, having the right genes could potentially become the ideal tag.

Many readers, however, will not so quickly embrace the idea of levying higher taxes on tall taxpayers. Indeed, when first hearing the proposal, most people either recoil from it or are amused by it. And that reaction is precisely what makes the policy so intriguing. A tax on height follows inexorably from a well-established empirical regularity and the standard approach to the optimal design of tax policy. If the conclusion is rejected, the assumptions must be reconsidered. One possibility is that the canonical Utilitarian model omits some constraints from political economy that are crucial for guiding tax policy. For example, some might fear that a height tax would potentially become a gateway tax for the government, making taxes based on demographic characteristics more natural and
dangerously expanding the scope for government information collection and policy personalization. Yet modern tax systems already condition on much personal information, such as number of children, marital status, and personal disabilities. A height tax is qualitatively similar, so it is hard to see why it would trigger a sudden descent down a slippery slope.

A second possibility is that the Utilitarian model fails to incorporate any role for horizontal equity. As Alan J. Auerbach and Kevin A. Hassett (1999) note, "...there is virtual unanimity that horizontal equity -the extent to which equals are treated equally- is a worthy goal of any tax system." It may, for instance, be hard to explain to a tall person that he has to pay more in taxes than a short person with the same earnings capacity because, as a tall person, he had a better chance of earning more. Yet horizontal equity has no independent role in Utilitarian theory. When ability is unobservable, as in the Vickrey-Mirrlees model, respecting horizontal equity means neglecting information about exogenous personal characteristics related to ability. This information can make redistribution more efficient, as we have seen. In other words, as Kaplow (2001) emphasizes, horizontal equity gives priority to a dimension of heterogeneity across individuals' ability and focuses on equal treatment within the groups defined by that characteristic. He argues that it is difficult to think of a reason why that approach, rather than one which aims to maximize the well-being of individuals across all groups, is an appealing one. Why would society sacrifice potentially large gains for its average member to preserve equal treatment of individuals within an arbitrarily-defined group?

A third possibility is that the Utilitarian model needs to be supplanted with another normative framework. Libertarians, for example, emphasize individual liberty and rights as the sole determinants of whether a policy is justifed (see, e.g., David M. Hasen, 2007). From their perspective, any transfer of resources by policies that infringe upon individualsí rights is deemed unjust. Daniel M. Hausman and Michael S. McPherson (1996) discuss the views of Robert Nozick, a prominent Libertarian philosopher, by writing: "According to Nozick's entitlement theory of justice, an outcome is just if it arises from just acquisition of what was unowned or by voluntary transfer of what was justly owned... Only remedying or preventing injustices justifies redistribution..." Similarly, the prominent Libertarian economist Milton Friedman (1962) writes: "I find it hard, as a liberal, to see any justification for graduated taxation solely to redistribute income. This seems a clear case of using coercion to take from some in order to give to others..." How to reconstitute the theory of optimal taxation from a strictly Libertarian perspective is, however, far from clear.

Our results, therefore, leave readers with a menu of conclusions. You must either advocate a tax on height, or you must reject, or at least signifcantly amend, the conventional Utilitarian approach to optimal taxation. The choice is yours, but the choice cannot be avoided.


© 2009 by N. Gregory Mankiw and Matthew Weinzierl. All rights reserved.
The various footnotes are also a dead giveaway as to what this argument is really all about. As [11] illustrates:
In principle, individuals would have an incentive to grow less in the presence of a height tax. For example, to the extent that parents would intentionally provide a less healthy environment for their children in response to a height tax, that could influence the optimal design of a height tax. We ignore this possibility below.
A little word-substitution and we get something worthy of the Chicago School:
In principle, individuals in the top earning brackets would have an incentive to grow their incomes less in the presence of a high top-level income tax. For example, to the extent that government would intentionally provide a less healthy environment for their citizens in response to a high top-bracket income tax, that could influence the optimal design of a high top-bracket income tax. We ignore this possibility below.
I spotted the thrust of this paper in about two seconds.

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Re: Tax height?

Post by Samuel »

We were aware of that Patrick. We were just pointing out the obsene stupidity due to apples and oranges and got sidetracked over morality.

Simply put, the rich do have an incentive- to report less earning and capital. They still want the money.
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Re: Tax height?

Post by J »

Mankiw's blog is at best a source of the day's economic news & opinions. It is in no way a source of valid information nor understanding of today's economics and capital markets. For me it's a means of laughing at the stupid people and getting to know how the short bus riders think without rotting my brain with CNBC.

Just a few of his "greatest hits".

http://gregmankiw.blogspot.com/2008/10/ ... ising.html
It's called a risk premium and lack of trust, everyone's piling into the shorter term (2 year or less) treasuries since they no longer believe the US is "money good" for the longer term notes. It's the same reason a person with a bad credit rating will be charged more interest on a loan than someone with spotless credit.

http://gregmankiw.blogspot.com/2008/10/ ... ystem.html
Sounds a bit like the PPiP doesn't it? Stupid, and guaranteed to fail at the expense of the taxpayer.

http://gregmankiw.blogspot.com/2008/09/ ... gress.html
In Bernanke we trust!

http://gregmankiw.blogspot.com/2009/05/ ... steep.html
Clearly doesn't understand the bond market and the effects of quantitative easing printing. When Treasury says they'll buy their own long term T-note issues, everyone else tenders into the bid and leaves them holding the bag, which ramps the yield of the T-notes. The Treasury then has to up the size of its buys to keep the yield down which causes even more holders to unload everything they have into the Treasury's bid. This continues until Treasury owns the entire float, at which point we have the Zimbabwe model. Currently, the yield curve is steep since everyone's getting out of the long end and piling into the short term bonds, this reflects a lack of confidence in the ability of the US to honor its long term obligations. This is a BAD thing.

Mankiw doesn't get it. I doubt he ever will since he's still using the old broken models which have no relation to reality. Prof. Steve Keen on the other hand has a model which does work, and which delivers accurate forecasts & analysis of our economic mess.
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Re: Tax height?

Post by Teebs »

How odd, I always thought Mankiw wasn't a particularly right wing economist, after all most of his work is on New Keynesian stuff.
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Re: Tax height?

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J wrote:http://gregmankiw.blogspot.com/2009/05/ ... steep.html
Clearly doesn't understand the bond market and the effects of quantitative easing printing. When Treasury says they'll buy their own long term T-note issues, everyone else tenders into the bid and leaves them holding the bag, which ramps the yield of the T-notes. The Treasury then has to up the size of its buys to keep the yield down which causes even more holders to unload everything they have into the Treasury's bid. This continues until Treasury owns the entire float, at which point we have the Zimbabwe model. Currently, the yield curve is steep since everyone's getting out of the long end and piling into the short term bonds, this reflects a lack of confidence in the ability of the US to honor its long term obligations. This is a BAD thing.
I blame jet lag and waking up too early in the morning, replace every occurrence of "Treasury" with "The Fed". Now I feel silly. :(
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Re: Tax height?

Post by Surlethe »

Darth Wong wrote:
Surlethe wrote:There's something a little bit subtler than simply measuring proven ability to pay here: this is, in some sense, a measure of how hard has someone worked to gain what he earns.
In short, it is an attempt to create a tax system based on some moral precept of how deserving an individual is, rather than a straightforward attempt to tax based on ability to pay. That is going to be the mother of all quagmires. Why don't we also adjust taxes by profession, since certain professions have a work:reward ratio that is totally different from others?
...
What about family connections, which have an enormous impact on wealth? How about physical attractiveness, which is also correlated to success? Should we tax beauty? How about race? Should we have a special "white person" tax?

To steal the language of the Iowa court decision on gay marriage, this idea suffers from being under-inclusive. It uses a general logic which casts an incredibly wide net (ie- "those who have unfair advantages should be penalized through taxes for the sake of fairness") and then targets only a tiny subset of that group (those whose special advantage is height, as opposed to myriad other possibilities).
I was trying to illustrate the general logic with the height example, rather than saying society should only target tall people. I suppose in principle such taxes would be good - if I were an omniscient philosopher-king, I'd consider them - but I have to bow to the point on pragmatism.

Edit: And the point others raised re. some professions where natural inclination is important is also well-taken.
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Re: Tax height?

Post by Singular Intellect »

If someone wanted to be really smart about it, they would propose a "dick size" tax. The bigger your dick is, the more taxes you pay.

That way, you get the male population lining up to pay more taxes, and fulfill the whole "dumbass tax ideas" catagory. :D
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Re: Tax height?

Post by Darth Wong »

Singular Intellect wrote:If someone wanted to be really smart about it, they would propose a "dick size" tax. The bigger your dick is, the more taxes you pay.

That way, you get the male population lining up to pay more taxes, and fulfill the whole "dumbass tax ideas" catagory. :D
I don't think males would line up to pay more taxes even in this situation. However, you would see even more males claiming they're overtaxed, which would only exacerbate the current problem (remember that tax records are not public knowledge unless you choose to voluntarily release them).

It would actually make more sense to have an extra tax on short penises. Then you could have a "Town Hall" meeting where a candidate asks the audience "how many of you feel you pay too much tax?" and not one man raises his hand.
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Re: Tax height?

Post by Surlethe »

Patrick Degan wrote:...

I spotted the thrust of this paper in about two seconds.

You've been taken for a ride.
Of course it's largely satire, and I don't think anybody would disagree that Mankiw has a libertarian bent. But it doesn't follow that his conclusion is wrong; as I read the paper, he's taking certain established economic guidelines for optimal taxation and applying their logic to height. That's how he arrives at the logical fork in the conclusion; it's not like he's just out-and-out stating it as fact without any justification.
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Re: Tax height?

Post by Samuel »

Surlethe wrote:
Patrick Degan wrote:...

I spotted the thrust of this paper in about two seconds.

You've been taken for a ride.
Of course it's largely satire, and I don't think anybody would disagree that Mankiw has a libertarian bent. But it doesn't follow that his conclusion is wrong; as I read the paper, he's taking certain established economic guidelines for optimal taxation and applying their logic to height. That's how he arrives at the logical fork in the conclusion; it's not like he's just out-and-out stating it as fact without any justification.
Except that he is wrong about why we have taxes. Taxes are to raise revenue for the government, not to encourage people to meet their potential.
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