Obama the best adman for Sukhoi, Mikoyan, and Kamov ever.

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Obama the best adman for Sukhoi, Mikoyan, and Kamov ever.

Post by MKSheppard »

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WASHINGTON — The Obama administration has blocked Israel's request for advanced U.S.-origin attack helicopters.

Government sources said the administration has held up Israel's request for the AH-64D Apache Longbow attack helicopter. The sources said the request was undergoing an interagency review to determine whether additional Longbow helicopters would threaten Palestinian civilians in the Gaza Strip.

"During the recent war, Israel made considerable use of the Longbow, and there were high civilian casualties in the Gaza Strip," a source close to the administration said.

The sources said Israel has sought to purchase up to six new AH-64Ds in an effort to bolster conventional and counter-insurgency capabilities. They said Israel wants to replenish its fleet after the loss of two Apache helicopters in the 2006 war with Hizbullah.

The Israel Air Force has also requested U.S. permission to integrate the Spike extended-range anti-tank missile into the AH-64D. Spike ER, developed by the state-owned Rafael Advanced Defense Systems, has a range of eight kilometers and was installed on the Eurocopter Tiger and AgustaWestland A129 helicopters.

The sources said the deployment of Spike would require integration into the Longbow's millimeter-wave fire control and acquisition system. They said this would require permission from both Boeing and the U.S. government.

Israel's Defense Ministry and air force have discussed procurement of additional Longbows with the U.S. firm Boeing. But the sources said the Longbow as well as other defense requests have been shelved by the administration amid its review of the potential use of American weapons platforms by Israel.

During his visit to the United States, Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu also sought to win approval from the Defense Department for the installation of Israeli-origin electronic warfare systems in the Joint Strike Fighter.

Netanyahu was said to have met Defense Secretary Robert Gates in a review of Israeli defense programs with the United States. Defense Minister Ehud Barak was scheduled to meet Gates in Washington in early June.
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Administration sources said the White House has drafted measures that could prevent Israel and other non-NATO allies from procuring U.S. fighter-jets, including the F-35. They said the administration would require that Israel obtain special permission from the Defense Department and State Department to acquire the Joint Strike Fighter.
The administration has also been resisting Israeli requests for technical data on the new F-15SE fighter-jet.

Under the proposals, the Pentagon would order modifications of JSF to provide the aircraft with nuclear strike capabilities. The sources said such a capability would provide the Pentagon with access to government budgets to maintain and develop the U.S. nuclear arsenal.

"Once JSF obtains nuclear strike capability, there becomes a problem with exports," the source said. "NATO countries would have less of a problem; non-NATO countries would need special exemptions."

The sources said Lockheed Martin would not be instructed to develop both nuclear- and non-nuclear models of the F-35 for the first stage of production. Israel has sought to become among the first export clients of JSF.

Over the last few months, the administration has rejected a series of Israeli requests regarding modifications of the F-35. They included Israeli electronic warfare systems and acquisition of U.S. software codes that would allow Israel to repair the aircraft's central computer. The U.S. refusal meant that the Israel Air Force would be forced to send the F-35 to the United States for any repairs, a process that could take months.

The sources said the State Department has been delaying Israeli requests for pre-export licenses required for an examination of the new generation F-15.

The sources said the administration has not approved the new F-15 for the Foreign Military Sales program. They said this could prevent Israel from using U.S. military aid to purchase the aircraft from Boeing.

"This is a legal issue," a source said. "The F-15SE might not qualify for FMS."
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A refusal by the United States to allow Israel to repair computer systems in the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) is at the heart of disagreements between the Defense Ministry and the Pentagon that have been holding up an official Israeli order for the fifth-generation fighter jet.

The JSF, also known as the F-35, is a stealth fighter jet under development by Lockheed Martin. Last year, Israel received approval from the Pentagon to purchase up to 75 aircraft in a deal that could reach close to $20 billion.

Defense officials told The Jerusalem Post on Thursday that talks between the Israeli defense delegation in Washington and the Pentagon have picked up speed in recent weeks but have yet to result in agreement due to the US's refusal to grant Israel access to the plane's internal computer mainframe.

The Americans are concerned that by allowing Israel to independently repair the computers, the Israel Air Force will get its hands on the classified technology that was used to make the plane.

Israel, on the other hand, has argued that due to its operational requirements it needs to have the ability to repair damaged or broken computer systems in "real time" and cannot wait for a computer system to be sent to the US for repairs in the middle of a war.

The Americans have told Israel it will receive a number of spare computer systems that it could install in place of a damaged system but would still have to send the damaged system to the US for repairs.

"This is the core of the disagreements right now," explained one senior defense official. "We have major operational constraints and need to have the ability to repair the systems on our own."

Due to the disagreements regarding the computer, as well as American opposition to the integration of Israeli systems into the plane and its overall soaring cost - now reaching $100 million - the Defense Ministry has recently asked Boeing for details on the new and advanced model of the F-15 Eagle, which is claimed to have enhanced stealth capabilities.

There is also an option to upgrade existing F-15s to the Silent Eagle model at a much lower cost.

In March, Boeing unveiled the F-15 Silent Eagle (F-15SE), a new configuration of the F-15 which has undergone improvements and modifications that, according to media reports, give the plane a stealth capability that is effective in evading radars on enemy aircraft but not against ground-based radar systems.

Improvements in stealth include coatings and treatments to the aircraft, as well as a new design for the conformal fuel tanks that includes the possibility of carrying weapons inside them instead of fuel.

Israel operates several squadrons of F-15s, including one of 25 F-15Is, the aircraft with the longest-range in the IAF.
Part of the reason F-35 was supposed to be so great (and why F-22 was killed), was that it was gonna be so super cheap, since it was gonna be sold to EVERYONE with a pulse; as opposed to F-22 being restricted by US Law from export.
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Re: Obama the best adman for Sukhoi, Mikoyan, and Kamov ever.

Post by ray245 »

So in other words, it would be better if the US retain the F-22s and sell it to all their allies?
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Re: Obama the best adman for Sukhoi, Mikoyan, and Kamov ever.

Post by TimothyC »

ray245 wrote:So in other words, it would be better if the US retain the F-22s and sell it to all their allies?
More like it would be better if Obama's team were not massive fools, intent of gutting American defense programs.
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Re: Obama the best adman for Sukhoi, Mikoyan, and Kamov ever.

Post by Vympel »

Bah, screw Israel if they don't like the terms of the sale. It's still going to get sold to a bunch of countries. Given their shenanigans with China in the past, I certainly wouldn't be too keen on it.
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Re: Obama the best adman for Sukhoi, Mikoyan, and Kamov ever.

Post by ray245 »

MariusRoi wrote:
ray245 wrote:So in other words, it would be better if the US retain the F-22s and sell it to all their allies?
More like it would be better if Obama's team were not massive fools, intent of gutting American defense programs.
Does the US requires F-22 to fights the wars that it needs to fight? I mean a major conflict with a power than can rival the United States has a high chance to turning into a Nuclear war (and the cost benefits of fighting a nuclear war is low), so I doubt that the US has a need to build so many F-22s. :?

When you are fighting rouge states or groups like the Taliban, I highly doubt that F-22 is more useful than a F-35. Given the fact that F-22 is supposed to be an air-superiority fighter.

Although my view might be wrong due to a lack of full understanding in regards to military affairs.
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Re: Obama the best adman for Sukhoi, Mikoyan, and Kamov ever.

Post by Thanas »

MariusRoi wrote:
ray245 wrote:So in other words, it would be better if the US retain the F-22s and sell it to all their allies?
More like it would be better if Obama's team were not massive fools, intent of gutting American defense programs.

Oh hey, becaue Obama does not want to sell to Israel he must be a massive fool. Lovely thought process there - did you graduate seventh grade?
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Re: Obama the best adman for Sukhoi, Mikoyan, and Kamov ever.

Post by Master of Cards »

ray245 wrote:
MariusRoi wrote:
ray245 wrote:So in other words, it would be better if the US retain the F-22s and sell it to all their allies?
More like it would be better if Obama's team were not massive fools, intent of gutting American defense programs.
Does the US requires F-22 to fights the wars that it needs to fight? I mean a major conflict with a power than can rival the United States has a high chance to turning into a Nuclear war (and the cost benefits of fighting a nuclear war is low), so I doubt that the US has a need to build so many F-22s. :?

When you are fighting rouge states or groups like the Taliban, I highly doubt that F-22 is more useful than a F-35. Given the fact that F-22 is supposed to be an air-superiority fighter.

Although my view might be wrong due to a lack of full understanding in regards to military affairs.
Wars like Iraq and Afghanistan aren't the wars, the F-22 is meant to fight, its a plane to fight in heavily defended areas and win control of those areas. Any plane can be a mudthrower but the F-22 isn't designed for that role.
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Re: Obama the best adman for Sukhoi, Mikoyan, and Kamov ever.

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

What if those rogue states have lots and lots of radar sites and surface-to-air missiles, ray? That's when it becomes pretty handy to have the world's stealthiest fighter in your air force.
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Re: Obama the best adman for Sukhoi, Mikoyan, and Kamov ever.

Post by Kar Kar »

MariusRoi wrote:
ray245 wrote:So in other words, it would be better if the US retain the F-22s and sell it to all their allies?
More like it would be better if Obama's team were not massive fools, intent of gutting American defense programs.
The US provides 3 billion in military aid per year in Israel. It's unlikely we'll get much back from that investment.

Also I doubt I'd have to explain that more ethically conscious and peaceful solutions to problems are always bad for war profiteers like defence contractors.
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Re: Obama the best adman for Sukhoi, Mikoyan, and Kamov ever.

Post by Pelranius »

Vympel wrote:Bah, screw Israel if they don't like the terms of the sale. It's still going to get sold to a bunch of countries. Given their shenanigans with China in the past, I certainly wouldn't be too keen on it.
If the radar on the WZ-10 changes from the spherical shaped one to something like the Longbow's flattened one, I hope that Obama has the guts to really start asking hard questions around Tel Aviv.

Anyways, Israel already has a bunch of Apaches. If they want to shoot up Palestinians, I'm sure their UAVs would be suitable for the job.
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Re: Obama the best adman for Sukhoi, Mikoyan, and Kamov ever.

Post by TimothyC »

Thanas wrote:Oh hey, becaue Obama does not want to sell to Israel he must be a massive fool. Lovely thought process there - did you graduate seventh grade?
No, it's just another example in the list so far of killing/cutting programs like GBI, KIE, and ABL.
Kar Kar wrote:Also I doubt I'd have to explain that more ethically conscious and peaceful solutions to problems are always bad for war profiteers like defense contractors.
You mean like programs that lack offensive capabilities (see above)? Or programs that are needed to prevent a degradation of current abilities (like stoping funding for the Reliable Replacement Weapon and cutting funding for testing our current nuclear stockpile)?
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Re: Obama the best adman for Sukhoi, Mikoyan, and Kamov ever.

Post by Kar Kar »

MariusRoi wrote:No, it's just another example in the list so far of killing/cutting programs like GBI, KIE, and ABL.
You'll have to excuse me if I'm not familiar with current acronym projects. Not everyone gets a stiffy for the military. A brief explanation of the projects and how they'd be useful would be a big help.
You mean like programs that lack offensive capabilities (see above)? Or programs that are needed to prevent a degradation of current abilities (like stoping funding for the Reliable Replacement Weapon and cutting funding for testing our current nuclear stockpile)?
You're already moving away from your initial point. How does a stingier and more conscious policy of what we're selling to our non-NATO allies gut the defense industry? I hope you don't think weapons are a free market commodity.
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Re: Obama the best adman for Sukhoi, Mikoyan, and Kamov ever.

Post by Ace Pace »

Kar Kar wrote:
MariusRoi wrote:No, it's just another example in the list so far of killing/cutting programs like GBI, KIE, and ABL.
You'll have to excuse me if I'm not familiar with current acronym projects. Not everyone gets a stiffy for the military. A brief explanation of the projects and how they'd be useful would be a big help.

The projects he listed all relate to ABM, Anti Ballistic Missiles programs.
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Re: Obama the best adman for Sukhoi, Mikoyan, and Kamov ever.

Post by erik_t »

MariusRoi wrote:
Thanas wrote:Oh hey, becaue Obama does not want to sell to Israel he must be a massive fool. Lovely thought process there - did you graduate seventh grade?
No, it's just another example in the list so far of killing/cutting programs like GBI, KIE [sic], and ABL.
What similarity does "not selling X to Israel" have to anti-ballistic-missile programs?
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Re: Obama the best adman for Sukhoi, Mikoyan, and Kamov ever.

Post by Kar Kar »

Ace Pace wrote:The projects he listed all relate to ABM, Anti Ballistic Missiles programs.
Ah thanks. That ineffective waste of money. I'd hardly champion it as an important military project that the defense industry needs in order to survive.

Has it changed at all since 2005, or is it still like trying to hit a bullet with a bullet?
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Re: Obama the best adman for Sukhoi, Mikoyan, and Kamov ever.

Post by MKSheppard »

Kar Kar wrote:Ah thanks. That ineffective waste of money.
:lol:
Has it changed at all since 2005, or is it still like trying to hit a bullet with a bullet?
:lol:

An unspecified number of NIKE-ZEUS intercepts were skin to skin hits.......in the 1960s. Go back to square one you subhuman retarded fuck; or even better yet; put a gun in your mouth and pull the trigger, so you don't pollute this board with your stupid anymore.
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Re: Obama the best adman for Sukhoi, Mikoyan, and Kamov ever.

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

The US Government actually put out a rule a year or so ago, that fighters sold by the US to foreign countries, have to either use US EW equipment, or use indigenous equipment. The intention was to actually screw Israel which was doing rather profitable business with selling its EW equipment, and typically top of the line ones, and not the substandard crap the US was peddling.

So I won't put it past some industrial lobbying that is working against Israel in some of the arms deals.
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Re: Obama the best adman for Sukhoi, Mikoyan, and Kamov ever.

Post by Ace Pace »

erik_t wrote:
MariusRoi wrote:
Thanas wrote:Oh hey, becaue Obama does not want to sell to Israel he must be a massive fool. Lovely thought process there - did you graduate seventh grade?
No, it's just another example in the list so far of killing/cutting programs like GBI, KIE [sic], and ABL.
What similarity does "not selling X to Israel" have to anti-ballistic-missile programs?
Oddly enough, as far as I am aware, the U.S. has expanded it's support for the Arrow theater ABM which is mainly developed by Israel.
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Re: Obama the best adman for Sukhoi, Mikoyan, and Kamov ever.

Post by Ace Pace »

Kar Kar wrote:
Ace Pace wrote:The projects he listed all relate to ABM, Anti Ballistic Missiles programs.
Ah thanks. That ineffective waste of money. I'd hardly champion it as an important military project that the defense industry needs in order to survive.

Has it changed at all since 2005, or is it still like trying to hit a bullet with a bullet?
I'll leave it to people like Stuart/Phongn, Shep, Skimmer or the other people who understand the details to explain the technical stuff, but to quickly cover stuff.

1) Hitting a bullet with a bullet is proven tech. Works. GBI. Patriot. Arrow. They all work.

2) ABM is not some "ludicrous money waste" but one of the sanest defense programs possible. It's a cost efficient alternatives to having to attack nations who want to hurt the U.S. It's also a pure sanity defense. ABM cuts the losses from a nuclear war down.
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Re: Obama the best adman for Sukhoi, Mikoyan, and Kamov ever.

Post by MKSheppard »

Kar Kar wrote:The US provides 3 billion in military aid per year in Israel. It's unlikely we'll get much back from that investment.
The US provides $1.3 billion in military aid each year to Egypt, as well as $600 million of non military aid, for about $2~ billion each year.

Israel gets $1.8 billion in military aid each year and $1.2 billion of non-military aid, for about $3~ billion each year.

Why? Because it's part of the Camp David Accords; we've essentially been bribing them both to not go to war with each other.
Also I doubt I'd have to explain that more ethically conscious and peaceful solutions to problems are always bad for war profiteers like defence contractors.
Yeah, because the A-12 program was such a huuuuuuge cash cow for Grumman and McDonnell Douglass, it's why they're still independent, and not part of huge conglomerates. :roll:

Please; commit suicide like I suggested earlier, for the board's sanity.
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Re: Obama the best adman for Sukhoi, Mikoyan, and Kamov ever.

Post by Ma Deuce »

ray245 wrote:Does the US requires F-22 to fights the wars that it needs to fight? I mean a major conflict with a power than can rival the United States has a high chance to turning into a Nuclear war (and the cost benefits of fighting a nuclear war is low), so I doubt that the US has a need to build so many F-22s.
No, the USAF doesn't need the F-22 right now, but look at it this way: the F-22 took 15 years to develop, and could wind up being in service for 40 (judging by the F-15). This is frankly not unusual for a modern fighter plane, and fighters elsewhere are certainly not getting any less sophisticated (the Eurofighter endured a similarly long gestation, for example). Given that kind of lead time, simply waiting until when or if you do require it to begin development isn't really an option. Furthermore, given how long the F-22 will likely be in service, can any of us say with any certainty what the geopolitical situation will look like 20, 30 or 40 years from now? You might say that they could start building more F-22s later if needed, but once the production gets shut down it'll be very difficult, if not impossible to restart it in the future, more so the longer you wait. Besides, those F-15s aren't getting any younger: old equipment inevitably has to be replaced sometime, and F-22s are still more cost-effective than modernized F-15s.

Additionally, the F-22 is not a "one trick pony" as it's critics often claim, and can do more than just air superiority. It can carry two 1,000lb JDAMs (or eight Small Diameter Bombs) internally, allowing it to take over the deep-strike role form the now-retired F-117. Hell, it can even act as a SIGINT platform, though that function still has some bugs to be worked out (some critics have dishonestly tried to spin that to paint the whole plane as useless).

Of course there's no denying that fighter aircraft still cost a lot of money, and the US has a soaring budget deficit that can't be sustained forever, but I'll point out that the same budget proposal which terminates F-22 production also allocates enough money for the truly useless Littorial Combat Ship to buy more F-22s than the Air Force even wants.
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Re: Obama the best adman for Sukhoi, Mikoyan, and Kamov ever.

Post by weemadando »

Obama's review of overseas weapons sales is killing Australia's defence plans in the short term - the JSF and Wedgetail projects which are both already overdue and many of our co-operatively developed weapons programs are all being shelved while the new administration is conducting all of their investigations into these sales and programs.
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Re: Obama the best adman for Sukhoi, Mikoyan, and Kamov ever.

Post by Elfdart »

MKSheppard wrote:The US provides $1.3 billion in military aid each year to Egypt, as well as $600 million of non military aid, for about $2~ billion each year.

Israel gets $1.8 billion in military aid each year and $1.2 billion of non-military aid, for about $3~ billion each year.

Why? Because it's part of the Camp David Accords; we've essentially been bribing them both to not go to war with each other.
How many times are you going to repeat this lie on this board after being called on it before? Vympel and I have already debunked this horseshit in separate incidents. There is nothing in the Camp David Accords about the US having to give Egypt or Israel so much as one thin dime.
Please; commit suicide like I suggested earlier, for the board's sanity.
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Re: Obama the best adman for Sukhoi, Mikoyan, and Kamov ever.

Post by Mr. Coffee »

So when's the wedding date, Elf, Shep?
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Re: Obama the best adman for Sukhoi, Mikoyan, and Kamov ever.

Post by Kar Kar »

MKSheppard wrote:An unspecified number of NIKE-ZEUS intercepts were skin to skin hits.......in the 1960s. Go back to square one you subhuman retarded fuck; or even better yet; put a gun in your mouth and pull the trigger, so you don't pollute this board with your stupid anymore.
Unspecified, real helpful bit of information there.

A success rate would have been far more useful. But of course I can't expect much use out of a socially inept moron who moistens his panties over death.

Guess if I want to learn something I have to research it myself.

Here's a Returns article from December 2008.
U.S. officials had billed the test as a particularly realistic simulation of a possible missile attack but critics of the system disputed that description.

Before the latest test, the Pentagon said 12 tests of the ground-based system had been conducted since 1999 and seven of them had been successful.
The military always blows sunshine up everyone's ass within earshot about their pricey pet projects but I'm willing to give them the benefit of a 50% success rate. It's far from great but it's better than I expected. The article also states the Bush admin was spending about 10 billion a year on all missile defence.
The US provides $1.3 billion in military aid each year to Egypt, as well as $600 million of non military aid, for about $2~ billion each year.

Israel gets $1.8 billion in military aid each year and $1.2 billion of non-military aid, for about $3~ billion each year.

Why? Because it's part of the Camp David Accords; we've essentially been bribing them both to not go to war with each other.
Oops looks like you were caught in a lie. How surprising.
Yeah, because the A-12 program was such a huuuuuuge cash cow for Grumman and McDonnell Douglass, it's why they're still independent, and not part of huge conglomerates.
I'm sure you could find lots of little examples of defence contractors supplying equipment that isn't inherently used to kill people. However that doesn't dispute my claim that a peacetime environment results in less profits for military contractors.
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