Mormons upset when people talk about their bigotry.

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Mormons upset when people talk about their bigotry.

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LOS ANGELES -- As more states take up the debate on same-sex marriage, some advocates of legalization are taking a very specific lesson from California, where the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints dominated both fundraising and door-knocking to pass a ballot initiative that barred such unions.

With the battle moving east, some advocates are shouting that fact in the streets, calculating that on an issue that eventually comes down to comfort levels, more people harbor apprehensions about Mormons than about homosexuality.

"The Mormons are coming! The Mormons are coming!" warned ads placed on newspaper Web sites in three Eastern states last month. The ad was rejected by sites in three other states, including Maine, where the Kennebec Journal informed Californians Against Hate that the copy "borders on insulting and denigrating a whole set of people based on their religion."

"I'm not intending it to harm the religion. I think they do wonderful things. Nicest people," said Fred Karger, a former Republican campaign consultant who established Californians Against Hate. "My single goal is to get them out of the same-sex marriage business and back to helping hurricane victims."

The strategy carries risks for a movement grounded in the concept of tolerance. But the demographics tempt proponents of same-sex marriage: Mormons account for just 2 percent of the U.S. population, and they are scarce outside the West. Nearly eight in 10 Americans personally know or work with a gay person, according to a recent Newsweek survey. Only 48 percent, meanwhile, know a Mormon, according to a Pew Research Center poll.

Many Mormons also acknowledge a problematic public profile that could make it difficult for them to lead the fight against same-sex marriage. A 2008 poll by Gary C. Lawrence, author of "How Americans View Mormonism: Seven Steps to Improve Our Image," found that for every American who expresses a strong liking for Mormons, four express a strong dislike. Among the traits widely ascribed to Mormons in the poll were "narrow-minded" and "controlling."

"We're upside down on our image," said Lawrence, who organized Mormon volunteers in California, where on a typical Saturday 25,000 turned out to knock on doors. "People have misperceptions of us because of ignorance, because of the history of polygamy, and because we organize quickly, which scares some people."

Mormon officials have tried to stay out of the controversy that followed the California vote, when the church's prominent role in the marriage fight became clear. A spokeswoman in Salt Lake City declined to say whether the church is involved in debates going on in states such as New Jersey and New York, except to say that leaders remain intent on preserving the "divine institution" of marriage between man and woman. The faith holds that traditional marriage "transcends this world" and is necessary for "the fullness of joy in the next life."

The church has a top-down hierarchy that answers to the First Presidency, who also holds the status of prophet. Last June, congregations were read his letter urging that "you do all you can" to pass the California initiative, known as Proposition 8. Lawrence, who like Karger worked as a Republican political consultant, professed no concern about the effort to shift the focus away from the definition of marriage.

"He is demonizing the opposition. It's Political Consulting 101," Lawrence said of Karger. "The average guy does not know the extent to which the Mormon Church was involved on Prop. 8."

The proponents' strategy is grounded in a stubborn reality: While the number of states legalizing same-sex marriage is slowly increasing -- Maine recently became the fifth -- in every case the agent of change was either a court or a legislature. Voters have rejected the idea wherever it has appeared on a ballot.

The election results track public opinion nationwide. Polls consistently show that while a majority of Americans support some legal recognition of gay unions, more want to keep marriage reserved for a man and a woman.

The disparity is narrow and shrinking, however, and in California, Mormons may well have made the difference on Proposition 8, which nullified a decision by the state Supreme Court that legalized same-sex marriage.

A torrent of last-minute contributions from church members across the country financed well-framed TV ads in the final weekend of the campaign. Opponents' analysis of campaign-contribution reports indicated that Mormons contributed more than half of the campaign's $40 million war chest.

"The church's position on the issue of same-sex marriage is well known and well documented," church spokeswoman Kim Farah said by e-mail. She declined to comment on estimates from individual Mormons but emphasized that the church itself made no cash contribution. It reported "in-kind" contributions of $190,000, mostly in the form of staff members' time.

Rick Jacobs, director of the Courage Campaign, an advocacy group that produced a TV ad drawing attention to the Mormons' role in the campaign, said, "We have zero interest in demonizing anybody who believes in any religion."

In the spot, a pair of Mormon missionaries knock on the door of a lesbian couple, rifle their drawers and shred their marriage certificate in front of them.

Mormons "exist and flourish in this country because of the concept of equal protection," Jacob said, noting the persecution that drove members of the church to Utah in the 19th century. "I find it just an irreconcilable hypocrisy that a group that rightly thrives within the essence of the American system would seek to repress and deny rights to another. And it's even a little worse, because I certainly didn't choose to be gay. People make choices to be Mormons, or any other religion."

Mormon officials issued statements calling for "civility" in the wake of Proposition 8. "The Church has refused to be goaded into a Mormons versus gays battle and has simply stated its position in tones that are reasonable and respectful," one statement said.

Suspicions that the church may be working behind the scenes in other states are encouraged by documents showing efforts by the church to cloak its participation in a late-1990s campaign that led to a ban on same-sex marriage in Hawaii.

"We have organized things so the Church contribution was used in an area of coalition activity that does not have to be reported," a senior Mormon official wrote in one document Karger posted on his Web site, and the church has not disputed.

Mormon headquarters contributed $400,000 in an effort to persuade Hawaiians against same-sex marriage but urged the Roman Catholics to take the lead in a group dubbed Hawaii's Future Today after polls showed that the other church had better public acceptance. A decade after the 1998 Hawaii vote against gay marriage, Lawrence wrote that the image problem remained: "The collection of negatives they are willing to apply to us suggests that they view us as a growing threat."

That works for Karger, whose specialty at his consulting group was opposition research. "People will vote for someone because they like so and so, or because they don't like the other guy," said Karger, who entered gay activism to preserve the Boom Boom Room, a gay bar in Newport Beach, Calif.

And favorability ratings declined for Mormons over the last year, Lawrence said, from 42 percent to 37.

"Is it fruitful to use the Mormon bogey?" said Mark Silk, a professor of religion and public life at Trinity College in Connecticut. "My sense is that there aren't great risks to it. Once a religious institution is going to inject itself into a public fight, which the LDS did in a straight-up way, then I think people are prepared to say, 'Well, okay, you're on that side and we're against you.' "
I find it hilarious how two-faced and dishonest this is. Call for civilty, complain about bigotry, all of which found it's way to your door because you had to actively go out and flex your muscles to remove another minorities rights.

Suck it, bigots. You made that bed when you decided your church was a good mechanism for opposing others. Now lie in it and shut up.
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Re: Mormons upset when people talk about their bigotry.

Post by Superman »

I think the proper response to the complaining Mormons is a big collective "waaahh." Throwing in a joke or two about their magic underwear may also be appropriate.
A 2008 poll by Gary C. Lawrence, author of "How Americans View Mormonism: Seven Steps to Improve Our Image," found that for every American who expresses a strong liking for Mormons, four express a strong dislike. Among the traits widely ascribed to Mormons in the poll were "narrow-minded" and "controlling."
Huh. I'm kind of surprised to see that the average person actually might have a pretty accurate view of the LDS church. Why them and not so Catholics and/or evangelicals I dunno, but that's something anyway.

And I like how they're trying to get the Catholics to be the public faces of this. So they're trying to manipulate the situation and play a big role in keeping gays out of marriage, but do it from "behind the curtain?" Wow. You know, instead of having titles like "Elder" and "Bishop," they should really just start using the title of "Darth." It would be more appropriate. Of course, they'd keep that a secret too. :P
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Re: Mormons upset when people talk about their bigotry.

Post by Samuel »

My irony meter broke. Honestly, what can I say- people getting hit by the backlash of their actions always generates a large amount of joy at their misfortune :D
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Re: Mormons upset when people talk about their bigotry.

Post by Crossroads Inc. »

Mormon officials issued statements calling for "civility" in the wake of Proposition 8. "The Church has refused to be goaded into a Mormons versus gays battle and has simply stated its position in tones that are reasonable and respectful," one statement said.
Suck on it you pigs! this IS a "Mormon vs Gays" battle, you know it, we know it, and its your own damn fault for it. The fact that after shoveling out massive support for the Prop-8 initiative they are shocked SHOCKED that somehow gay supporters thing, Mormons MIGHT not like them, well boo-fcking-HOO. I say keep up the negative adds on them and continue to Boycott the crap out of every Mormon owned business in California.
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Re: Mormons upset when people talk about their bigotry.

Post by Mr. Coffee »

So why haven't they had they tax exempt status yanked for directly getting into political issues?
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Re: Mormons upset when people talk about their bigotry.

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Mr. Coffee wrote:So why haven't they had they tax exempt status yanked for directly getting into political issues?
Because the church never got involved directly with its own funds, nor did they use their facilities for any of the campaigning- they simply asked all the church members to do it on their own time. IIRC, churches are allowed to mobilize politically for social issues, but not for specific candidates or parties. It's a very fine line they're walking.
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Re: Mormons upset when people talk about their bigotry.

Post by CmdrWilkens »

Mr. Coffee wrote:So why haven't they had they tax exempt status yanked for directly getting into political issues?
Because the organization itself didn't contribute or organize contributions. The only direct organizational contribution was the missive to do all you can. Everythign else was done off working hours and in volunteer groups outside of direct church authority. So yes it was a well organized campaign it was not organized by the church itself but rather by members thereof.

Its splitting hairs and I'm doing a bad job of pointing out exactly how so BUT they did stay just on the right side of the law. Now that said its certainly hypocritical of them to find fault with the backlash.
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Re: Mormons upset when people talk about their bigotry.

Post by Uraniun235 »

Not like it really matters anyway. Didn't a bunch of churches openly tell their members to vote for McCain? Did any of them get their tax exemption revoked?
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Re: Mormons upset when people talk about their bigotry.

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Uraniun235 wrote:Not like it really matters anyway. Didn't a bunch of churches openly tell their members to vote for McCain? Did any of them get their tax exemption revoked?
yeah the pastor of a church I go to did that actually, but he was immediately booed by the nuns in the front row.

The same nuns, incidently, are spearheading the clandestined distribution of condoms in catholic schools, theres a little dissention going on I guess. one of them is also openly gay, but apparently its ok for a nun to be gay as long as she never acts on those feelings with lust.

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Re: Mormons upset when people talk about their bigotry.

Post by DPDarkPrimus »

"He is demonizing the opposition. It's Political Consulting 101," Lawrence said of Karger. "The average guy does not know the extent to which the Mormon Church was involved on Prop. 8."
That's correct, I think the average person would be quite surprised to find out just how much the Mormon Church was involved in pushing Prop. 8, but not the way you're suggesting it, buddy.
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Re: Mormons upset when people talk about their bigotry.

Post by Crossroads Inc. »

The only time I've ever heard of a Church actually threatened with Tax removal, was when a Local parish here in Phoenix came out public Against McCain in the last election and organized it's parish to raise money for Obama.
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Re: Mormons upset when people talk about their bigotry.

Post by Guardsman Bass »

Kodiak wrote:
Mr. Coffee wrote:So why haven't they had they tax exempt status yanked for directly getting into political issues?
Because the church never got involved directly with its own funds, nor did they use their facilities for any of the campaigning- they simply asked all the church members to do it on their own time. IIRC, churches are allowed to mobilize politically for social issues, but not for specific candidates or parties. It's a very fine line they're walking.
That's what I've heard directly from a former state-level politician here in Utah - basically, they go full-press on a number of "social issues" (gay marriage is a big one - they've been fighting it elsewhere - but there are other issues), and they get away with it because they usually aren't the only church doing it (if I recall correctly, they partnered with the Catholic Church when fighting the possibility of gay marriage in Hawaii), and because they just ask for volunteers and private donations.
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Re: Mormons upset when people talk about their bigotry.

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CmdrWilkens wrote:Because the organization itself didn't contribute or organize contributions. The only direct organizational contribution was the missive to do all you can. Everythign else was done off working hours and in volunteer groups outside of direct church authority. So yes it was a well organized campaign it was not organized by the church itself but rather by members thereof.

Its splitting hairs and I'm doing a bad job of pointing out exactly how so BUT they did stay just on the right side of the law. Now that said its certainly hypocritical of them to find fault with the backlash.
I don't understand where exactly the hair was split. Any organization is the total sum of its members. If a large well organized campaign is executed by the members of the organization, at the specific urging of the organization, and funded by donations at the request of the organization, then I fail to see how its not done BY the organization. Individual members of the LDS didn't spontaneously start doing the same thing at the same time on their own. It very clearly WAS organized by the Mormon Church.
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Re: Mormons upset when people talk about their bigotry.

Post by Simplicius »

Tangentially, Maine's Catholic Diocese has been challenged for helping to collect signatures for the referendum to overturn our marriage-equality vote:
San Fran Chronicle wrote:Gay rights group: Maine diocese violating tax law

Thursday, May 21, 2009

(05-21) 15:32 PDT Augusta, Maine (AP) --

A gay rights advocacy group claims that the Roman Catholic Diocese of Maine is violating tax rules by helping a referendum campaign that would repeal the state's new same-sex marriage law.

The Empowering Spirits Foundation said its challenge was filed Wednesday at an Internal Revenue Service office in Dallas. The San Diego-based group said the diocese is engaging in political activity by collecting signatures for the referendum, violating IRS rules applying to nonprofits.

The ballot question would overturn Maine's gay marriage law. Gay marriage foes need the signatures of at least 55,087 registered voters to get the question on the ballot. The petitioners have until three months after the Legislature adjourns, which is expected to happen in mid-June, to collect the signatures.

IRS policy allows the diocese to participate in the campaign and help collect signatures, said Marc Mutty, public affairs director for the diocese. He rejected the IRS challenge as a "bogus attempt to sidetrack the campaign."

Leonard Cole, a Portland attorney who specializes in tax and nonprofit issues, suggested that the church's involvement could put it at odds with IRS rules that restrict lobbying by tax-exempt nonprofits.

"It's hard for me to imagine how you seek someone's signature on a petition without it arguably at least being an attempt to influence their vote once the measure was on the ballot," Cole said.

Meanwhile, about a dozen gay-marriage supporters gathered in a park across the street from Maine's Capitol to thank the Legislature for enacting the bill and Gov. John Baldacci for signing it earlier this month. The gathering also marked the start of the supporters' campaign to defeat the referendum.

One of the participants, Carla Hopkins of Mount Vernon, said she was not discouraged that a same-sex marriage bill in New Hampshire has been set back by a House vote. Efforts are under way to negotiate a compromise acceptable to Gov. John Lynch.

"We're riding high on what's happening here in Maine," said Hopkins, adding that she hopes to see similar laws passed throughout New England.

Four other states, Connecticut, Iowa, Massachusetts and Vermont, allow gay marriage.
So far, the IRS hasn't weighed in that I know of.
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Re: Mormons upset when people talk about their bigotry.

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Gil Hamilton wrote: I don't understand where exactly the hair was split. Any organization is the total sum of its members. If a large well organized campaign is executed by the members of the organization, at the specific urging of the organization, and funded by donations at the request of the organization, then I fail to see how its not done BY the organization. Individual members of the LDS didn't spontaneously start doing the same thing at the same time on their own. It very clearly WAS organized by the Mormon Church.
Do not get me wrong, because I would love to see someone go after them for the hair split. However I beleive what they are saying is the full time paid employees of the church (Prophets and councils of uber, etc...) did not organize anything nor schedule time or funds, rather volunteers from the church (members who are not employed by the church but go to church six times a week for all the koolaide) organized on their own time for all this bullfuckery.

However, I'm quite sure you could go after them even with those hair splits, you know church resources were used even if it was just call sheets and name lists.
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But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
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Re: Mormons upset when people talk about their bigotry.

Post by CmdrWilkens »

Gil Hamilton wrote:
CmdrWilkens wrote:Because the organization itself didn't contribute or organize contributions. The only direct organizational contribution was the missive to do all you can. Everythign else was done off working hours and in volunteer groups outside of direct church authority. So yes it was a well organized campaign it was not organized by the church itself but rather by members thereof.

Its splitting hairs and I'm doing a bad job of pointing out exactly how so BUT they did stay just on the right side of the law. Now that said its certainly hypocritical of them to find fault with the backlash.
I don't understand where exactly the hair was split. Any organization is the total sum of its members. If a large well organized campaign is executed by the members of the organization, at the specific urging of the organization, and funded by donations at the request of the organization, then I fail to see how its not done BY the organization. Individual members of the LDS didn't spontaneously start doing the same thing at the same time on their own. It very clearly WAS organized by the Mormon Church.
Yes and no, it was not organized by any of the paid staff during staff hours or using staff facilities. Let me take a coutner example to better explain. Lets say that a school principal mentions to the students during an assembly that the local governing body is about to enact legislation that will take away all after school activities and they should do something about it. The students, after school and with the help of some teachers who might volunteer their time away from the school get together to lobby and fundraise against the legislation. Because the school itself, in the form of authorized persons acting in their capacity as agents for the school, did not contribute time, money, or use of facilities then the school did not participate in the campaign.

Likewise here the LDS church did not authorize its memebers to use facilities for below market rates, to the use of time and materials of staff or otherwise involve its paid staff and facilities in the action. Legally an organization cannot, and should not, be held legally responsible for the actions of its employees when it occurs off the time clock and off organization property.

Its the same reason why political personel in the Capitol and White House have two seperate electronic devices, one is for campaign and political activity and the other is for legislative or governmental activity. You will see congressional aids often times answering phones and then indicating they cannot take this call because its a government phone...then they clock out step outside and use the campaign phone to speak with the caller. Its a hair split but the point is the seperation between actions which have the stamp of official capacity and those which are of a personal capacity.
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Re: Mormons upset when people talk about their bigotry.

Post by Gil Hamilton »

And if you believe the Church of Latter Day Saints actually behaved in the manner of your analogy and the actions were spontaneous and not organized by the Church, I've got some beach front property in Tucson to sell you. It wasn't a mention at a school assembly, the OP even has a memo from their head muckity muck that they are going to mobilize their congregation and solicit donations from members all over the country to the tune of millions of dollars for this campaign as a concerted effort. It was still run by staff members of the church, they just weren't getting paid. Those were actual church members going door to door, at the specific urging of the Church. To say that it wasn't an LDS effort isn't splitting hairs, that's breaking peptide bonds in the keratin that make up the hairs.

Or are you honestly saying the Latter Day Saints weren't the primary movers in this thing and the Church totally wasn't as an organization working on Prop 8?
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Re: Mormons upset when people talk about their bigotry.

Post by Knife »

Gil Hamilton wrote:And if you believe the Church of Latter Day Saints actually behaved in the manner of your analogy and the actions were spontaneous and not organized by the Church, I've got some beach front property in Tucson to sell you. It wasn't a mention at a school assembly, the OP even has a memo from their head muckity muck that they are going to mobilize their congregation and solicit donations from members all over the country to the tune of millions of dollars for this campaign as a concerted effort. It was still run by staff members of the church, they just weren't getting paid. Those were actual church members going door to door, at the specific urging of the Church. To say that it wasn't an LDS effort isn't splitting hairs, that's breaking peptide bonds in the keratin that make up the hairs.

Or are you honestly saying the Latter Day Saints weren't the primary movers in this thing and the Church totally wasn't as an organization working on Prop 8?
No, he is saying they were dirty little bastards and gave themselves a shitty little alliby for legal problems.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
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Re: Mormons upset when people talk about their bigotry.

Post by Justforfun000 »

It pisses me off in the extreme that these asshole religious organizations can't mind their own business. It's a secular, social issue that doesn't concern them one bit unless they were forced to wed people and that's NEVER been on the table and I'd be 100% against that myself.

They aren't out there pushing for amendments and revisions against divorce or any other "church" issue besides abortion. They just have to favour their bigoted choices I guess. Pricks!
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Re: Mormons upset when people talk about their bigotry.

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

The best part is that if these fucks thought that they had a snowball's chance in hell of passing it, they'd be out there lobbying for laws legalizing polygyny so that they could develop the massive harems their forebearers had.
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Mr Bean
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Re: Mormons upset when people talk about their bigotry.

Post by Mr Bean »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:The best part is that if these fucks thought that they had a snowball's chance in hell of passing it, they'd be out there lobbying for laws legalizing polygyny so that they could develop the massive harems their forebearers had.
The church has officially abandon polygamy for now and those polygamist sects do not represent main line modern Mormon tradition. And by that I mean look to my sig line, these sects are cults, they bear the Mormon stamp because they came from Mormonism, but they are cults first Mormon's second.

That does not justify the practices or political efforts of the official Mormon church. They may be crazy but to be fair, that's an old crazy of theirs. Bigoted homophobic hypocrites they may be, but not on this situation.

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Re: Mormons upset when people talk about their bigotry.

Post by Pint0 Xtreme »

I wonder what the LDS church's involvement dealing with the next major marriage equality campaign will be like. My gut feeling tells me that their full fledged endorsement of Prop 8 was partially motivated by a desire to become more accepted amongst the religious conservatives who have a history of shunning the mormons. Obviously, it has also generated a public backlash so I wonder if they're going to tone down their contributions next year.
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Re: Mormons upset when people talk about their bigotry.

Post by Gil Hamilton »

Mr Bean wrote:The church has officially abandon polygamy for now and those polygamist sects do not represent main line modern Mormon tradition. And by that I mean look to my sig line, these sects are cults, they bear the Mormon stamp because they came from Mormonism, but they are cults first Mormon's second.

That does not justify the practices or political efforts of the official Mormon church. They may be crazy but to be fair, that's an old crazy of theirs. Bigoted homophobic hypocrites they may be, but not on this situation.
The Mormon Church only officially abandoned polygamy because they wanted Utah to have statehood. It was a concession they had to make because the Union was refusing to deal with them until they officially poo-pooed the weirder aspects of their religion. However, polygamy is still entirely in line with Mormon faith, after all, it was an official Revelation to Joe Smith that the polygamy stuff was A-OK by God after he kept getting caught in bed with younger members of his congregation. I would bet that the Mormons would go back to the weirder stuff if they were politically left alone long enough and didn't have to worry about their image (which is a big deal). Right now, they just shifted it to the hereafter.
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Re: Mormons upset when people talk about their bigotry.

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Hmm if joe Smith had been caught with a gentleman friend, this might have all gone a different way...

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Re: Mormons upset when people talk about their bigotry.

Post by Darth Lucifer »

CmdrWilkens wrote:
Mr. Coffee wrote:So why haven't they had they tax exempt status yanked for directly getting into political issues?
Because the organization itself didn't contribute or organize contributions. The only direct organizational contribution was the missive to do all you can. Everythign else was done off working hours and in volunteer groups outside of direct church authority. So yes it was a well organized campaign it was not organized by the church itself but rather by members thereof.

Its splitting hairs and I'm doing a bad job of pointing out exactly how so BUT they did stay just on the right side of the law. Now that said its certainly hypocritical of them to find fault with the backlash.
Here is the text of that letter from the First Presidency:
SALT LAKE CITY 30 June 2008 The following letter was sent from the First Presidency of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to Church leaders in California to be read to all congregations on 29 June 2008:

Preserving Traditional Marriage and Strengthening Families

In March 2000 California voters overwhelmingly approved a state law providing that “Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California.” The California Supreme Court recently reversed this vote of the people. On November 4, 2 008, Californians will vote on a proposed amendment to the California state constitution that will now restore the March 2000 definition of marriage approved by the voters.

The Church’s teachings and position on this moral issue are unequivocal. Marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God, and the formation of families is central to the Creator’s plan for His children. Children are entitled to be born within this bond of marriage.

A broad-based coalition of churches and other organizations placed the proposed amendment on the ballot. The Church will participate with this coalition in seeking its passage. Local Church leaders will provide information about how you may become involved in this important cause.

We ask that you do all you can to support the proposed constitutional amendment by donating of your means and time to assure that marriage in California is legally defined as being between a man and a woman. Our best efforts are required to preserve the sacred institution of marriage.
http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng ... x-marriage
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