Terminator Salvation

[Shroom Man 777]

The only bit of the Future War we saw in T1 and T2 were just a few minutes of fighting, mostly from Kyle Reese's own limited perspective as a foot soldier. It gave us no impression at all about the bigger picture.

And what's wrong with using technicals instead of combat vehicles? That technical happened to be armed with a phased plasma cannon! Show me a modern-day military Humvee or Fast Attack Vehicle, Willis Jeep or Land Rover that's better armed, eh?

[TheMuffinKing]

I loved the technicals! But seriously, the resistance was probably using technicals and regular civilian vehicles since J.D. due to their prevalence and ease of parts scavenging.

[MKSheppard]

The Terminator is on TV and I just realized that the T-800 killed Sarah's roommate's boyfriend by basically just throwing him around until he died. Skynet must've not bothered programming complicated close quarters combat techniques into its cyborgs since they really don't need jew-jitsu to kill squishy humans, just their hard metal fists.

Pretty much yeah. Why spend all that time to program in complicated HTH when you can just punch/toss someone until they die?

[MKSheppard]

Look Stark, the mindfuck paradox shit started with Terminator 2. If they did stop Judgment Day for realsies, there'd be no war, there'd be no resistance, and John Connor wouldn't have sent back Kyle Reese to fuck his mom, and there would certainly be no terminators to send back.

shhhhh

Don't interrupt stark when he's on a roll, mkay?

I always thought it was Connor trying to fuck with the timeline for humanity's advantage -- if Skynet is trying to alter the timelien for it's own advantage via time travelling assassins, why can't humanity fuck skynet over by significantly delaying development, via explosions at cyberdyne, so that it's weaker than in the original timeline?

[Shroom Man 777]

Besides, it seemed as though the T-800 in Salvation was the first operational one. There could've been all sorts of software glitches or incompleteness in its programming. Skynet's previous "infiltration unit" was the frickin T-600, and all that thing did was stand around and stride menacingly while killing the fuck out of things with gatling guns.

Obviously Skynet will have to spend some time programming the T-800 with all sorts of effective infiltration techniques.

Maybe that was what Marcus was for too. Skynet downloaded all his collected experience, so that it could use it in programming the T-800s to be effective infiltrators.

[Drooling Iguana]

Do we know if the T-800s in the first two movies were fresh off the line? In the original version of T2, Uncle Bob states that the more contact he has with humans the more he learns. If he and the T1 Terminator had already seen some action before being sent back in time that could explain why they were better fighters than the obviously brand new TS T-800.

[Starglider]

An all-liquid metal robot both makes no sense in terms of realism

There was no indication that it was completely 'liquid metal'. It was in fact called 'mimetic polyalloy', which contain all manner of molecular scale components.

(where's its CPU?

Distributed in lots of microscale processing elements. They don't even have to be nanomechanical; lots of small hardened semiconductor elements would work.

Its power source?

In an earlier analysis, my favoured explanation was metastable molecular fuel; this is sufficient for a few months to years of independent operation and can be distributed around the body. However a capacitor based system will work if you assume some kind of off-screen recharging.

How was the thing programmed to begin with?

Either via ROM programming by the assembly process, or via electrical connection or even wireless networking (which it obviously had, being able to reassemble) once constructed.

and is less effective dramatically by being more or less unkillable, causing the audience to simply wait for whatever deus ex machina the writers will pull out of their ass in the last ten minutes to do away with it

That was a deliberate dramatic choice, not one I agree with, but it is fixed in the director's cut.

Well it basically consisted of your average nanowank grey goo, just without the "self-replicating" aspects of it.

The self-replication is by far the hardest part of grey goo. There is nothing especially 'wanky' about the T1000; it is in fact far more realistic than the 'plasma guns' seen in the first movie, which really have no scientific basis at all.

[Shroom Man 777]

Do we know if the T-800s in the first two movies were fresh off the line? In the original version of T2, Uncle Bob states that the more contact he has with humans the more he learns. If he and the T1 Terminator had already seen some action before being sent back in time that could explain why they were better fighters than the obviously brand new TS T-800.

How were they better fighters than the T-800 in Salvation? In T-1 all Arnold did was throw Sarah's roommate's boyfriend around. I think at one point, the guy even managed to tackle Arnold to the ground (or get him to trip). In the end, when Arnold was reduced to a skeleton, all he did was also walk towards the target to kill it with his bare hands.

Hell, the only difference we see is that in Salvation, the T-800 had the sense to aim for the "weak spot" when confronted by an enemy cyborg. Obviously that tactic couldn't be applied to the T-1000.

The Terminator in T2 was fresh off the line. John Connor found him in a rack full of inactive stored Terminators, in the time machine place.

Also, it doesn't matter if the Terminator is or isn't fresh off the line. Obviously Skynet can download the data from the Terminators it has in the field and use it to make its next batch of Terminators smarter. The longer Skynet has Terminators active, the more data it can get. The collective experiences of all Skynet's Terminators can be collected and assessed and then used to program the next batch. With the T-800 in Salvation being Skynet's first active T-800, Skynet has no previous data with which to "teach" the T-800.

Hell, for all we know the T-800 in Salvation mimicking the voice of Kyle Reese could've been based on T-600 tactics. T-600s could listen in on humans before killing them and use faked voices to fool humans from afar, where their shitty rubber skin disguises couldn't work. The T-800 in Salvation also didn't display any intelligence beyond that of the T-600, all it did was walk towards the enemy to try and kill him.

But that's not a problem, because even though the T-800 has a far superior processor than the T-600, Skynet still lacks data gathered from actual infiltration missions. Meaning Skynet doesn't know shit, so it can't teach its new T-800s shit.

Until it has sent its T-800s out into the field, and not on obvious termination missions but on reconnaissance and observation missions (primarily to observe people and learn their behaviors and shit), Skynet won't have anything to teach its Terminators aside from files its got from pre-Judgment Day archives and from its prisoners.

Which might not be too bad. The initial T-800 infiltrators could pretend to be shell shocked refugees and escapees, explaining why they're so quiet and act so damn weird. All the while they are in the company of other humans (Resistance or not), they can then start learning how to act human just by watching people and stuff.

Which is pretty cool, thinking about it.

[TheMuffinKing]

Words

This is an interesting plot point brought up in several terminator comics (of Dark Horse fame) where several terminators begin to see how humans value the lives of others. I can't recall the issue, or if the terminators went rogue or not, but there was an interesting case of a t-800 taking a hostage, now with more contact I suppose Skynet could form some sort of tactic related to hostage taking as more information is received from its infiltrators.

What I find more interesting is how Skynet would contend with the wealth of info on its human enemies and how much more dangerous this makes it.

I also wonder if terminators have gone rogue in other instances of Terminator fiction and also if they have a sense of self.

[Gil Hamilton]

Pretty much yeah. Why spend all that time to program in complicated HTH when you can just punch/toss someone until they die?

I don't buy that. Aside from the fact that the Terminator's clearly do have some complicated combat experience programmed into them (like the riding a motorcycle while using a shotgun one handed programming), it wouldn't require very complicated programming to make them get to the damn point and bash their victims skull with a fist or break their neck. In T:S, the Ahnoldbot T-800 could have just grabbed John Connor and ripped his head off/crushed his throat half a dozen times, but instead he flung him about without settling anything.

Then again, Skynet could have just had John Connor shot after fooling Marcus into thinking he had turned off the bases defenses, but Skynet isn't exactly the brightest killer AI.

[Stark]

shhhhh

Don't interrupt stark when he's on a roll, mkay?

I always thought it was Connor trying to fuck with the timeline for humanity's advantage -- if Skynet is trying to alter the timelien for it's own advantage via time travelling assassins, why can't humanity fuck skynet over by significantly delaying development, via explosions at cyberdyne, so that it's weaker than in the original timeline?

Fuck off you stupid cunt. Explain why they had to keep making the 'timeline zomg' shit stupidier and more central to the plot instead of simply making more action movies? HINT - it's because their writing sucks. T2 still had themes and quality, which was my point.

Frankly, T2 had the silly circular nonsense for the same reasons as the others - to make another movie. However, they didn't make absolutely absurd statements like 'judgement day is unstoppable, but moveable, and yet the same people are involved in the same area of America'. Turns out quality can offset stupid, but the more they did it the more it became about the 'setting' and the 'timeline' and the 'canon' and less about robots destroying things and wierd themes of urban decay and inhumanity. Remember, it's okay to 'change' the timeline a bit because OMG MUST KEEP THE PRECIOUS ROBOTS and SHEPS SAD NUKE NONSENSE, but you can't have it ACTUALLY change because then you break your brand!

But NOOOOOOOO, brandslave fuckwits like you will just suck down any piece of shit writing without a blink. It's because of tasteless retards like you that so many film 'franchises' continue to churn out worthless content long after their premise was completed. Let's make another Fifth Element movie, with a stupid explanation about why the Devil is back early! After all, stupid nerds will love any explanation I generate.

[Havok]

Saw it tonight. I like it. At least as entertaining as 1 and 2.

Some thoughts...

- I want Termi-bike. Those things are sweet.
- I like the homages to the older movies. (GnR, "I'll be back", Connor using both molten metal and freezing to stop the T-800, he was just missing a hydraulic press )
- LOL at all the people that think that Skynet doesn't have access to old newspapers, video footage, internet etc. (OMG how do they know about Resse!! )
- Double LOL at people that are "OMG Why not just kill Connor and Reese immediately!" Duh. If they did that, Skynet doesn't exist because you have no T1.
- Per above, obviously Skynet is just toying with the humans until it can get passed the chain of events that it knows must happen.
- Why does Skynet build up in towers and not down?
- Skynet may not be controlled by "Evil AI!!!", there is a scene in the camps where Resse looks up and there are some shadowy human shaped figures that look to be overseeing what is happening.
- Big mecha are stupid.
- I wonder if there is any fan fiction that combines the Terminator franchise with the Matrix trilogy. They could fit together seamlessly.
- Marcus was a far more compelling character than Connor in this flick.
- Heart transplant... yeah, maybe the Terminator heart is compatible with all blood types or something. I dunno.
- I could totally go for another Fifth Element movie Stark.
- There was more than one Marcus. The one that was all damaged and shit was on a table that the new one got the clothes off of, so he will indeed, be back.
- Digital Arnie looked great. I think we are getting closer to what George Lucas was talking about.
- John Connor should stay away from helicopters.
- More to come...

[Shroom Man 777]

Those shadowy overlooking shapes are T-600s.

[Stark]

- I could totally go for another Fifth Element movie Stark.

As could we all.

[Terralthra]

- I want Termi-bike. Those things are sweet.

They're built on Ducati Monster chassis.

[Havok]

- I want Termi-bike. Those things are sweet.

They're built on Ducati Monster chassis.

Yeah, well, I've ridden a Monster, they don't do that.

[Havok]

Those shadowy overlooking shapes are T-600s.

I don't think so. They are up behind a white glass window and they didn't appear to have the bulk to be 600s. Possibly collaborators.

[Erik von Nein]

When they were being herded into the facility on the outside? Or are you referring to when he was taken out of the box he was in?

[Anguirus]

- Double LOL at people that are "OMG Why not just kill Connor and Reese immediately!" Duh. If they did that, Skynet doesn't exist because you have no T1.

FAIL. That makes the decision to send a T-1000 to kill Connor before he could send back Reese suicidal. It is also drama FAIL because if Skynet is actually avoiding killing Connor and Reese then there is no drama. It is also consistency FAIL because Skynet dispatched that 600 and 800 to assault, however incompetently, Connor and Reese.

The only way to make the rest of the movies work is if you accept that T1 is not a stable time loop and a non-Reese-descended Connor is kicking Skynet's ass in the OTL.

[Havok]

When they were being herded into the facility on the outside? Or are you referring to when he was taken out of the box he was in?

When he was being herded. I believe in the same scene when he grabs the metal shank and right before Skynet recognizes him.

[Havok]

- Double LOL at people that are "OMG Why not just kill Connor and Reese immediately!" Duh. If they did that, Skynet doesn't exist because you have no T1.

FAIL. That makes the decision to send a T-1000 to kill Connor before he could send back Reese suicidal. It is also drama FAIL because if Skynet is actually avoiding killing Connor and Reese then there is no drama. It is also consistency FAIL because Skynet dispatched that 600 and 800 to assault, however incompetently, Connor and Reese.

The only way to make the rest of the movies work is if you accept that T1 is not a stable time loop and a non-Reese-descended Connor is kicking Skynet's ass in the OTL.

Uh, negative. In universe it makes perfect sense, and it explains why Skynet continually makes dumb decisions. Especially now, we know that Skynet is capable of sacrifice, bidding it's time and subterfuge to achieve it's goals and not just Point Terminator at Humans: Set To KILL!!!

When you look at the chain of events it almost has to be this way...

Skynet sends the T-800 back in time to kill Shara Connor. Kyle Reese goes back in time to save her. They destroy the T-800 which then becomes the basis for everything that Skynet is.
Dyson straight up says that the T-800 processor enabled leaps and bounds and took them in a direction they never would have thought of before they got their hands on it.
Now we know that Cyberdyne was purchased by the USAF, but if they hadn't gotten the T-800 processor, that would not have happened because they wouldn't have had the advanced tech the USAF wanted for Skynet.
Skynet knows all of this. This explains the incompetence of the Terminators and Skynet. (Boy it sure is handy having those USB ports that the humans can plug into and reprogram Terminators and all the keyboards that humans use to access Skynet secret files )
It is clear that Skynet is just toying with the humans and bidding it's time in the future until it gets past the events that are in the time loop, all the while taking acceptable loses and making successful key hits on targets that have no involvement in the time travel.

[Terralthra]

- I want Termi-bike. Those things are sweet.

They're built on Ducati Monster chassis.

Yeah, well, I've ridden a Monster, they don't do that.

So have I (I worked for Ducati for a year). It's totally possible to do a planar axial spin in one because of the minimal body over the fork, but you have to swing your down leg up over to the other side as you're leaning it over. Once you figure out how to lean one way while pulling your leg the other, it's cake.

....yeah.

[Galvatron]

- LOL at all the people that think that Skynet doesn't have access to old newspapers, video footage, internet etc. (OMG how do they know about Resse!! )

You can add my voice to that chorus. If the LAPD didn't know the identity of John's father in 1995...



...why would Skynet?

[Havok]

Why are you assuming Reese is only important because he is Connor's dad? He is the one that told Shara of the future, which then enabled her to teach her son (doesn't matter if Reese was the dad or not really) about it and to prepare him for it. He is also the one that helped her avoid the 1st T-800. The fact that Reese was in the past and knew all about Skynet and Terminators and Judgment Day IS on record with the Police and as Stark pointed out, probably well documented because of the shrink that dealt with Reese and Shara.

But here's the thing, everything Skynet did in TS seemed dumb, (not just killing Reese, having the T-800 just slap Connor around instead of crushing his skull, not just turning off the 1st Marcus, then not even trying to restrain the 2nd Marcus) UNLESS you look at it from the POV that they are simply moving pieces around so that they ensure their own survival/creation by keeping Connor and Reese dancing to the correct tune until they need them to do the time travel which sets everything in motion.

[Drooling Iguana]

Since when are there two Marcuses?

But yes, if Skynet had any brains it would have left Marcus unconscious until John was safely dead instead of waking him up to tell him the whole plan so that he could stop it. Considering that this movie was released during the same summer as Watchmen you'd think they'd try to avoid that particular cliché.