Watch on the Rhine ( ENTIRELY spoilers)

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Samuel
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Re: Watch on the Rhine ( ENTIRELY spoilers)

Post by Samuel »

Chapter 12

The big push.
In some places that flood was being controlled. Newly developed weapons had their influence, chief among them the neutron bombs that the extreme left would never have permitted had they been allowed continued influence. And, though there were never enough of them—there had not been time to build enough of them—and though they were not always in the right place to be used, even so, the enhanced radiation weapons left whole swathes of the enemy puking and dying at many of the landing sites.
Germany has the bomb AND gets it through. Kratman would go up if he didn't constantly remind us that the greens are evil.
Any refugee that was hit was left for dead; the enemy's railguns destroyed mere flesh beyond hope of recovery. An occasional pistol shot sounding from the rear announced those few occasions when a straggler, or a wounded refugee, was given a final mercy.
Effects of railguns.
What he didn't understand was this ability to kill. Alone among the known denizens of the galaxy only the humans and the Posleen shared this unfortunate ability. Didn't they see how it imperiled their souls as individuals?

Or, perhaps, did the humans see? Did they see and decide that, some things were not only worth dying for, they were worth damnation for? It had to be thought on.
How the Indowy see violence.

Then we get the commander remembering Anna telling him of her time in the camps and deciding to let him live after he assures her he left them to go to the front because he found them distasteful. They start to get closer and there is an implied sex scene.
"The thresh of this world have something they call 'religion,' my lord," commented Ro'moloristen.

"Religion? What is this 'religion'?"

"It is something like the way our normals feel about us, something like the way we once felt towards the Aldenata, and something like the Way of the Rememberers," answered the underling. "It is, admittedly, a very confused and confusing concept.

"I mention this, lord, because tomorrow is the supreme holy day of the dominant cluster of religious groups on the planet. 'Christmas,' they call it. I believe that translates as 'Solemn celebration of the birth of the anointed one.' They give gifts to each other, sing songs of praise and thanksgiving to their god, gather to worship, and decorate their dwellings and places of labor with special care."
I just found this a nice touch.
"What of the space-to-surface bombardment?" asked Athenalras.

"Less effective against the line 'Siegfried' than it was against the line 'Maginot,' lord. This second line is built differently; smaller fortifications, and nearer to the surface. On the whole it has been a waste to risk a ship to come low enough to fire on single, small bunkers.
:banghead:
There is some . . . thing out there which has been picking off the lower orbit vessels of the People; picking them off and then moving to a new firing position. The firing signature of this thing is the same as for one of our own ship-borne, kinetic energy weapons."
That is the super-tank the Indowy helped build. It is sort of hard to imagine that the Posleen cannot track a superheavy tank, although they can analyze its firing signature. Not being military, can anyone fill me in on what that is and how they do that?
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Re: Watch on the Rhine ( ENTIRELY spoilers)

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The effect of railguns is another massive fuckup on Kratman's part. In the very first book, a 3mm railgun goes through Mike's armor, through one of his limbs, and through his armor again, and he's able to fight on(he'd have been able to in an ACS suit even with an arm destroyed, but this doesn't even remotely happen). In the fourth book, Tommy Sunday describe having taken a hit which basically took out his spleen, but was going to fast to really do any other damage.
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Re: Watch on the Rhine ( ENTIRELY spoilers)

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Samuel wrote: That is the super-tank the Indowy helped build. It is sort of hard to imagine that the Posleen cannot track a superheavy tank, although they can analyze its firing signature. Not being military, can anyone fill me in on what that is and how they do that?
Range and speed? The super Tiger was able to engage accurately all the way to high LEO maybe even MEO it's implied. The standard new Tiger's and the 16inch SheVa's were unable to engage anything 40 miles I think. There are example shots with globes being engaged the instant they cross the horizon(22 miles minimum max range) and able to go a good bit further. But the super Tiger is able to swat them out to a few thousand miles rather than a hundred or so.

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Re: Watch on the Rhine ( ENTIRELY spoilers)

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Mr Bean wrote:
Samuel wrote: That is the super-tank the Indowy helped build. It is sort of hard to imagine that the Posleen cannot track a superheavy tank, although they can analyze its firing signature. Not being military, can anyone fill me in on what that is and how they do that?
Range and speed? The super Tiger was able to engage accurately all the way to high LEO maybe even MEO it's implied. The standard new Tiger's and the 16inch SheVa's were unable to engage anything 40 miles I think. There are example shots with globes being engaged the instant they cross the horizon(22 miles minimum max range) and able to go a good bit further. But the super Tiger is able to swat them out to a few thousand miles rather than a hundred or so.

I'm more inclined to go with plot-induced stupidity myself. If they'd just parked a C-dec in high orbit over the battlezone outside the range of ground weapons, fuck-off ginormous supertanks wouldn't be evading contact practically at will like they were infantry in the mountains of Afghanistan.
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Re: Watch on the Rhine ( ENTIRELY spoilers)

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Samuel wrote:
In psychic agony, for the Posleen leader did care for his people as a whole—if not so much for individuals, Athenalras' crest sagged. The tenar-mounted God Kings had suffered no less than the mass of the People attacking on foot. The loss of so many sons was like an icy blade plunged deep into Athenalras' bowels.
The Posleen God Kings are psychers. Also, sons has to be a typo- they are hermaphrodites.
I thought he was merely saddened by and/or worried over the People's losses? There is little indication that they would be psychic otherwise, as I recall it.
consequences wrote:The effect of railguns is another massive fuckup on Kratman's part. In the very first book, a 3mm railgun goes through Mike's armor, through one of his limbs, and through his armor again, and he's able to fight on(he'd have been able to in an ACS suit even with an arm destroyed, but this doesn't even remotely happen). In the fourth book, Tommy Sunday describe having taken a hit which basically took out his spleen, but was going to fast to really do any other damage.
Is there no possibility that there are multiple railgun variants? It certainly makes better sense than using AT guns that fire off projectiles at relativistic velocities against personnel on a regular basis.
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Re: Watch on the Rhine ( ENTIRELY spoilers)

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Darth Hoth wrote:
consequences wrote:The effect of railguns is another massive fuckup on Kratman's part. In the very first book, a 3mm railgun goes through Mike's armor, through one of his limbs, and through his armor again, and he's able to fight on(he'd have been able to in an ACS suit even with an arm destroyed, but this doesn't even remotely happen). In the fourth book, Tommy Sunday describe having taken a hit which basically took out his spleen, but was going to fast to really do any other damage.
Is there no possibility that there are multiple railgun variants? It certainly makes better sense than using AT guns that fire off projectiles at relativistic velocities against personnel on a regular basis.
Since there's no mention of any variation beyond the 1mm or 3mm models and Kratmann can't even be bothered to say heavy or light, I'm going to go with no. And remember that the most competent threat Posleen faced before hitting humans was actually other Posleen during their regular planetary Ragnaroks(and internecine warfare leading up to such), massive over-penetration is actually a good thing, because the threat is another Posleen horde stretching back who knows how far.

He also fucked up the fact that anything in the air that transmits immediately dies, and probably a number of other extremely basic facts that Ringo had previously established. All in favor of going 'ooh aren't I a dark and gritty writer'.
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Re: Watch on the Rhine ( ENTIRELY spoilers)

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consequences wrote:Since there's no mention of any variation beyond the 1mm or 3mm models and Kratmann can't even be bothered to say heavy or light, I'm going to go with no. And remember that the most competent threat Posleen faced before hitting humans was actually other Posleen during their regular planetary Ragnaroks(and internecine warfare leading up to such), massive over-penetration is actually a good thing, because the threat is another Posleen horde stretching back who knows how far.

He also fucked up the fact that anything in the air that transmits immediately dies, and probably a number of other extremely basic facts that Ringo had previously established. All in favor of going 'ooh aren't I a dark and gritty writer'.
One that sticks out is that they used enhanced radiation weapons against aliens established in A Hymn Before Battle to be highly resistant to radiation. The anti-sniper system that backtracks and automatically retaliates against small numbers of ballistic attacks is an easy one to miss, and I wouldn't be surprised if he forgot about it.
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Re: Watch on the Rhine ( ENTIRELY spoilers)

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Raxmei wrote:
consequences wrote:Since there's no mention of any variation beyond the 1mm or 3mm models and Kratmann can't even be bothered to say heavy or light, I'm going to go with no. And remember that the most competent threat Posleen faced before hitting humans was actually other Posleen during their regular planetary Ragnaroks(and internecine warfare leading up to such), massive over-penetration is actually a good thing, because the threat is another Posleen horde stretching back who knows how far.

He also fucked up the fact that anything in the air that transmits immediately dies, and probably a number of other extremely basic facts that Ringo had previously established. All in favor of going 'ooh aren't I a dark and gritty writer'.
One that sticks out is that they used enhanced radiation weapons against aliens established in A Hymn Before Battle to be highly resistant to radiation. The anti-sniper system that backtracks and automatically retaliates against small numbers of ballistic attacks is an easy one to miss, and I wouldn't be surprised if he forgot about it.

Hell's Faire established that enough radiation will still do the job, so I can live with enhanced radiation weaponry working just with a smaller footprint(although I'm not about to give him credit for actually having paid enough attention to come up with that explanation).
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Re: Watch on the Rhine ( ENTIRELY spoilers)

Post by Raxmei »

consequences wrote:Hell's Faire established that enough radiation will still do the job, so I can live with enhanced radiation weaponry working just with a smaller footprint(although I'm not about to give him credit for actually having paid enough attention to come up with that explanation).
I can live with enhanced radiation weapons working to some extent, yes. It's just a little odd that the humans would deliberately develop and deploy such weapons despite knowing they'd be much less effective against Posleen. Their radiation resistance would push the radius at which the radiation would kill them closer to the radius at which the heat and blast (which are still considerable) would do the job. Plus Posleen don't seem to use armor and are already charmingly vulnerable to blast effects, which calls into question why you'd want to used enhanced radiation weapons over regular nukes.
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Re: Watch on the Rhine ( ENTIRELY spoilers)

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Raxmei wrote:
consequences wrote:Hell's Faire established that enough radiation will still do the job, so I can live with enhanced radiation weaponry working just with a smaller footprint(although I'm not about to give him credit for actually having paid enough attention to come up with that explanation).
I can live with enhanced radiation weapons working to some extent, yes. It's just a little odd that the humans would deliberately develop and deploy such weapons despite knowing they'd be much less effective against Posleen. Their radiation resistance would push the radius at which the radiation would kill them closer to the radius at which the heat and blast (which are still considerable) would do the job. Plus Posleen don't seem to use armor and are already charmingly vulnerable to blast effects, which calls into question why you'd want to used enhanced radiation weapons over regular nukes.
Terrain recovery? Some day you came come back to that city or town. Blowing it up with a pure nuke makes it more trouble than it's worth.

This assume the Neutron bombs are mostly pure short term radiation effects(IE ultra high wavelength radiation)

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Re: Watch on the Rhine ( ENTIRELY spoilers)

Post by Samuel »

Chapter 13
Behind Hans the sunless, predawn, sky flickered as if lit by a thousand strobe lights; the entire artillery—over three thousand guns—of Army Group Reserve, sending their gifts to the Posleen dug in well south of the city.
Size of their artillary batteries.
Schultz, not needed at his gunner's station for the nonce, helped bring round the morning's repast, a couple of hard-boiled eggs, some long-shelf-life milk—"nuclear milk," the men called it—a roll and some sort of unmentionable meat, a grayish, greasy, half-inch-thick slab of embalmed beef. Brasche, concentrating on the intelligence updates coming in via radio, absentmindedly took the eggs, roll and meat, but pointedly refused the milk. Schultz could not blame him; the price of extending the shelf life was milk that tasted of old gym socks. Nutritious it may have been. Good, it was not.
Nice to see that the Germans were smart enough to stockpile their food supplies instead of hoping to rely on their farms which are extremely succetible to bombardment. Unlike the US which just seems to hope the Posleen are too stupid to hit the Great Plains.
The most valuable recon assets in the Germans' hands were artillery-fired television cameras encased in time-fused shells that gave anywhere from a few to fifteen minutes of visual insight before falling too low to do any good. These were rare items, however. Like the precious neutron bombs, there had not been time to build many of them. They were also used, generally speaking, in conjunction with the artillery-fired neutron bombs, the cameras spotting useful targets and the atomic weapons then "servicing" those targets.
And he did pay attention to continuity! Dammit it Kratman, why do you have to be batshit insane politically? It would have been a great if you had for "any resource" had the European European Union employing a large number of Arabs fleeing from the Middle East. It would be great if he actually showed he wasn't a psychotic far right winger. But that would require him being a good writer...
The problem was, though—as Hans knew, that the enemy had had a chance to spread out and dig in. There were few concentrations, few that the cameras had found anyway, that justified the use of the deadly little enhanced radiation packages. Moreover, one of the genuinely effective defenses against the brief burst of high-intensity neutrons the bombs emitted upon detonation was simple earth; and the Posleen had dug in deep in the few days granted them.
The Posleen use fortifications.
Under the lash of the guns, terrified Posleen, normals and God Kings both, huddled and trembled. Never in all their previous history had the People experienced anything against which they were so completely helpless as they were against this threshkreen "artillery."
God, I hope the Galactics are the first species the Posleen ran into. Otherwise that is pathetic.
God, this is worse than Kursk, Hans thought as he watched on the main screen as infantry and tanks, locked in a close-quarters death struggle with the alien enemy, rolled back the shoulders of the eleven narrow lanes the artillery had torn in the Posleen line. For the Germans, this was a combined arms fight with a literal vengeance. Their lighter panzers, Leopard IIA7's, blasted apart bunkers, lent their machine guns to the fray, and ran over individual aliens to squeeze out their lives like overripe grapes. In close support, carrying the detailed fight to the foe, the German infantry, heedless of loss, cut, slashed, blasted and burnt their way through the trenches. Meanwhile, the artillery concentrated on sealing the areas of penetration off and pureeing any large groups of the enemy that attempted to mass for a counterattack.

But the affair was hardly a massacre. Stunned, demoralized and weakened though they were, the Posleen still fought back with more ferocity than any human enemy, even the mindlessly brave Russians, would have shown after the pummeling they had received.
Sending in infantry seems like an incredibly bad idea. Or any men in a frontal assult. I'm surprised this doesn't get them all killed.
The God King knew the drill. All Posleen Kessentai knew the drill for taking over abandoned property without incurring edas, the often crushing debt that was the common lot of all but the most senior and richest of the People.

"I am Oolt'ondai Chaleeniskeeren, son of Ni'imiturna, of the line of Faltrinskera, of the clan Turnisteran. Is there anyone aboard?"

"My internal sensors show no life aboard this vessel, Chaleeniskeeren of the Turnisteran. I am called 'Feast-deliverer.'"

"What is your radiation count, Feast-deliverer?" he asked.

"In the range of certain death in less than one twenty-fifth of this planet's revolution about its axis," the ship answered.

"I claim this ship for myself and my clan, in the name of the Net and of the Knowers; in the name of the People, and of survival."

"This is the way of the Path," the ship answered, as it lowered the ramp.
...
Standing in the command position, Chaleeniskeeren heard the ship intone, "Oolt'ondai Chaleeniskeeren, son of Ni'imiturna, of the line of Faltrinskera, of the clan Turnisteran, I recognize you under the Law of the Net, and the Ways of the Path and of the Knowers, as rightful lord of this vessel. What is your command?"

"Lift off," answered the new commander, unsteadily. Already the edges of his vision were darkening. "Lift off and head generally for the human forces. Control to me."
The Posleen have decent AI technology used in their warships.
"I know, lord," said Ro'moloristen. "I know. But I have been thinking . . ."

"A dangerous pastime."

"Yes, lord, I know that, too. Nonetheless I have been thinking. We . . . the People as a whole . . . make war as we hunt. These threshkreen do not. Or, at least, they do not do so as we do. They have what they call 'Principles of War.' The lists of these principles vary among them but I have discovered twelve that seem to cover everything."

"Twelve?"

"Yes, Lord: they are Mass, Objective, Security, Surprise, Maneuver, Offensive, Unity of Command, Simplicity, Economy of Force, Attrition, Annihilation and Shape. Using these principles I have determined upon a plan that may grant us the victory. Instead of attacking all along the front, we will concentrate our efforts towards the sector nearest to the bridge held by the host of Arlingas. We have no clue how even to use any of the thresh artillery we have captured, let alone build or resupply our own. But we do have ships. From space we will pound—"
The Posleen aren't idiots. Of course, the fact they can't understand how to use artillary goes against them, but they do understand that if they don't destory humanity, it will destroy them. Why they do not adapt to counter it...

Chapter 14
Not that he was useless, far from it. Unlike Indowy machines this one had awesome defects to it; awesome at least for one born into a civilization where perfection was the minimum standard for tools and machines. The little bat-faced sentient spent full and busy days helping to fix one crisis fault after another. He had a genuine knack for it, even with, to him, alien machinery.
The Galactics are like the Imperium (40K or Foundation) in their tech.

We go back to Hans remembering how his wife died of cancer before he decided to go back to Germany. He feels guilty because:
"The last group were the worst and I was in that group. We were the ones who knew, knew that it was wrong, evil, and even knowing this, turned our faces from it, instead of fighting it; turned our faces and ran.
She was soon close enough to hear the captain's words. "We need more men," he said, as loudly as able. "Division Charlemagne started this fight with over twenty-eight thousand men before we covered your retreat. One in twenty combat soldiers crossed to safety. We are the last French formation in this war and, if we are to have any bargaining power with the Boche, we must grow again." The captain then said something too softly to be heard, but Isabelle thought she could make out the words on his lips, "We need to grow again if any of our people are to deserve to live."

An adolescent voice rang out from just behind her, and Isabelle cringed. "How old must a man be to volunteer?" asked her son, Thomas, in a clear, ringing voice.

"Fifteen," answered Hennessey, perhaps slightly less wearily than he had spoken before.
They are running out of warm bodies for the ranks.
They had all been overjoyed except for Krueger, the unrepentant Nazi, that is. He made a polite showing of face, but retired immediately to his driving station, thinking all the while dark thoughts about pseudo-Nazis and Jew lovers.
Kruegar- choatic evil punching bag.
But the precious time gained by alien ignorance had been put to good use. Other liquids besides water could choke off oxygen from alien lungs.
:twisted:
Borominskar's olfactory organs barely sensed the new smell over the river's, thresh-made, pollution. In a few minutes, though, as the flowing waters spread some new fluid out across the stream's surface, the odor became too strong to ignore. The artificial intelligence on the oolt'ondai's tenar beeped once, twice, then issued a warning.

"That fluid is highly volatile, highly flammable, Kessentai. I believe it to be a trick of the threshkreen."
They have really God and portable AIs.
The God Kings' tenar fluttered above the conflagration, seemingly helpless to stop or end the suffering of their "wives" and children below.
God-King mate with the normals :wtf:
In time, shots rang down too, as Kessentai did what they could to end the agony of their roasting and suffocating people.

So you are capable of pity, too, are you? How very interesting
The Posleen show pity.

Chapter 15
Soon enough, the Posleen harvesting machine would erase even those.
They DO have machines! Hah!
Though the night was cold, Borominskar, standing by and facing a fire, and with a patchwork blanket made of carefully chewed and sewn thresh-pelt, was warm enough. A cosslain had summoned forth the needed skills to make the blanket from his internal store. Going from feed lot to feed lot he had selected the best of the thresh, those with the longest, finest, brightest hair to make this offering to his God. Carefully trimming and cleaning the freshly gathered pelts, the cosslain had chewed them gently for days to make them change from putrescible flesh to soft, long haired, impervious suede.
Posleen arts and crafts. If you view your enemy as prey, making clothing from their skin makes sense. I wonder if they try to use every part.
He had managed to cobble together a food synthesizer in an unused space between Brünnhilde's fighting compartment and the exterior hull.
The Indowy can build food machines.

Chapter 16
Rinteel took a sip of intoxicant from a metal, army-issue cup, before answering. Thus fortified, he continued, "Your programming does not allow you to fight on your own, is that correct?"

"It is correct, Indowy Rinteel."

"It does allow you to use your own abilities to escape, however, does it not?"

"If my entire crew is dead or unconscious, I am required to bring them and myself to safety, yes. But I am still not allowed to fight the main gun without a colloidal sentience to order me to. I can use the close-defense weapons on my own, however, at targets within their range; that is within my self-defense programming. And I may not retreat while I carry more than two rounds of ammunition for the main gun."

"Can't you direct your main gun without human interface?"

"I have that technical ability, Indowy Rinteel, but may still not fire it without a colloidal sentience to order me to."

"How very strange," the Indowy commented, sotto voce.

"I am not programmed to comment upon the vagaries of my creators, Indowy Rinteel."
:evil: You could have built bolos! Why didn't you? Why?
"The philosopher Meeringon is asking you in the name of the Path and the Way to end his suffering."

"Philosopher?" Benjamin queried. "Ah, never mind." He thought for a minute or two before continuing, "Tell this one we will grant his request . . . for a price."

The Israeli waited while the machine translated. "'The demand of price for boon is within the Way,' Meeringon says."

"Good. Ask Meeringon, 'Why?'"
The commader sends out patrols, along with other leaders in his sector to find out what the Posleen are up to. The Jewish commandos are the only successful group and discover that the leader is stockpiling captive civilians for human shielding.
Only three bridges remained undestroyed over the great river. To the north stood one, guarded by the fortress Ro'moloristen called, after the human practice, "Eben Emael." To the south, at the newly German again city of Strasburg, old fortresses held the People at bay. In the center, at Mainz where human and Posleen remained locked in a death grip, the bridges also stood.
:banghead: Blow them up!

Chapter 17 next.
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Re: Watch on the Rhine ( ENTIRELY spoilers)

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Samuel wrote:
God, this is worse than Kursk, Hans thought as he watched on the main screen as infantry and tanks, locked in a close-quarters death struggle with the alien enemy, rolled back the shoulders of the eleven narrow lanes the artillery had torn in the Posleen line. For the Germans, this was a combined arms fight with a literal vengeance. Their lighter panzers, Leopard IIA7's, blasted apart bunkers, lent their machine guns to the fray, and ran over individual aliens to squeeze out their lives like overripe grapes. In close support, carrying the detailed fight to the foe, the German infantry, heedless of loss, cut, slashed, blasted and burnt their way through the trenches. Meanwhile, the artillery concentrated on sealing the areas of penetration off and pureeing any large groups of the enemy that attempted to mass for a counterattack.

But the affair was hardly a massacre. Stunned, demoralized and weakened though they were, the Posleen still fought back with more ferocity than any human enemy, even the mindlessly brave Russians, would have shown after the pummeling they had received.
Sending in infantry seems like an incredibly bad idea. Or any men in a frontal assult. I'm surprised this doesn't get them all killed.
If they can't destroy the Posleen positions by bombardment - which appears to be the case - and need those positions cleared away from their front - which, again, seems to be the case, although I can't find my copy of WotR to check - then sending in the infantry to clear them out with rifle and grenade is the only workable option I can see.

And, yes, it's bad to be an infantryman in a frontal attack - but battles tend to kill people anyway, even when everything's done right and with all the time & resources needed to prepare as best as possible. As summed up by Maj. Gen. Eric Sixsmith (he was writing about the British Army's experiences on the Western Front in WW1, but it applies);
British Generalship in the Twentieth Century, pg. 176 wrote:There can be no greater fallacy than to suppose that battles can be won painlessly. However brilliant the plan, in the end the soldier must advance, cost what it may, and destroy the enemy. When the enemy is prepared to fight, as the Germans always were, this means bloody battle and heavy casualties.
Emphasis is mine.
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Re: Watch on the Rhine ( ENTIRELY spoilers)

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Samuel wrote:
The most valuable recon assets in the Germans' hands were artillery-fired television cameras encased in time-fused shells that gave anywhere from a few to fifteen minutes of visual insight before falling too low to do any good. These were rare items, however. Like the precious neutron bombs, there had not been time to build many of them. They were also used, generally speaking, in conjunction with the artillery-fired neutron bombs, the cameras spotting useful targets and the atomic weapons then "servicing" those targets.
And he did pay attention to continuity! Dammit it Kratman, why do you have to be batshit insane politically? It would have been a great if you had for "any resource" had the European European Union employing a large number of Arabs fleeing from the Middle East. It would be great if he actually showed he wasn't a psychotic far right winger. But that would require him being a good writer...
No he didn't. If he did he'd mention how the moment they transmit, they die. And he'd have remembered that shit in Yellow Eyes, and come up with some other arbitrary way of killing off someone in a relationship to try to establish how dark and edgy he is as an author.
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Re: Watch on the Rhine ( ENTIRELY spoilers)

Post by Orm »

consequences wrote:No he didn't. If he did he'd mention how the moment they transmit, they die. And he'd have remembered that shit in Yellow Eyes, and come up with some other arbitrary way of killing off someone in a relationship to try to establish how dark and edgy he is as an author.
If they're detected to transmit. A directional signal won't be. The camera shells were also used in the books set in America, although they did get shot down (but not as fast as maneuvering objects).
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Re: Watch on the Rhine ( ENTIRELY spoilers)

Post by Darth Hoth »

consequences wrote:Since there's no mention of any variation beyond the 1mm or 3mm models and Kratmann can't even be bothered to say heavy or light, I'm going to go with no. And remember that the most competent threat Posleen faced before hitting humans was actually other Posleen during their regular planetary Ragnaroks(and internecine warfare leading up to such), massive over-penetration is actually a good thing, because the threat is another Posleen horde stretching back who knows how far.
Did they design their weapons themselves, though? I might be misremembering it, but I thought that they had essentially pirated Aldenat' designs and had no real understanding of how they work themselves.
He also fucked up the fact that anything in the air that transmits immediately dies, and probably a number of other extremely basic facts that Ringo had previously established. All in favor of going 'ooh aren't I a dark and gritty writer'.
Or perhaps, he applied a little science and logic to Ringo's no-limits, no-numbers wankfest technowank uberweapons . . .
"But there's no story past Episode VI, there's just no story. It's a certain story about Anakin Skywalker and once Anakin Skywalker dies, that's kind of the end of the story. There is no story about Luke Skywalker, I mean apart from the books."

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Samuel
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Re: Watch on the Rhine ( ENTIRELY spoilers)

Post by Samuel »

Chapter 17
But you will live out your days in Spandau Prison, Herr Stössel, you and the other four hundred and forty-seven seriously implicated traitors."
Number of people who worked for the Darhel.
"Yes, sir," answered Krueger, will ill-concealed contempt. "They're just fucking Slavs, after all. It isn't like they're real people. I thought the boys should know that."

"Shut up, Sergeant Major," said Hans, eyes flashing and one hand resting on his pistol. "Just shut the fuck up."
Kruegar continues to be himself.
They marched in knots of twenty to fifty, each knot carrying by main strength a crudely lashed together wooden raft. Half the forests of France and Belgium had gone into those rafts.
...
But after that, Ro'moloristen expected things to be easier for them . . . once the threshkreen on the far bank saw that lashed to each raft, upright on posts, were anywhere from a half a dozen to a dozen thresh nestlings.
The Posleen's plan.

Chapter 18
And, too, Rinteel was discovering that he could kill, had killed, vicariously and without any moral dilemma. After all, though it was the crew that fired the gun, it was he, Rinteel, who made sure that gun was in full operating order. And he thought, And though it is the humans who actually fight the Posleen; it is we, the Indowy, who build them the weapons to fight with. How pure we think ourselves, how above the blood and slaughter. Yet that slaughter would be impossible without us. A foolish people mine, to think that distance from murder turns it into something besides murder.
The Indowy has second thoughts about killing.

Anyway, the Posleen, using human shields over run their lines. I'm not sure how realistic this is- after all, the troopers have experienced hell, seen their comrades die in droves and now are stopped by the idea of killing children.
Then again, Jugend has an average age of under seventeen, excluding old SS leadership.
The are staffing the line with kids. Given the demographics of Germany I find this hard to believe.

At this point the Posleen have completely overwhelmed them and they are evacuating to Scandanavia via Denmark. We have the Indowy go nuts and use slight of hand to continue firing, the prisoners eaten by the Posleen and
"All is lost," muttered the chancellor hopelessly.

Mühlenkampf shrugged in his hospital bed. "We have lost a battle, Herr Kanzler. But we have not lost the war."

What universe does this soldier live in? wondered the chancellor.

Mühlenkampf as much as read the chancellor's thoughts. He answered them with, "A battle is not a war, nor is even a series of battles a war, Herr Kanzler. This war will not be over until the last of us is dragged, biting and kicking from the last trench or the last hole after we have expended the last round of ammunition."

"We have saved nearly twenty million of our own people here; a like number have found safety in the Alps. Add to that several million more French and Poles and Czechs and Italians.

"The people we saved, too, are the most precious: women to breed more soldiers in abundance, wise farmers, skilled workers. And enough soldiers have been saved to make a seed from which mighty armies will grow. North and south we shall grow again; we shall marshal and build our strength. And the enemy has no chance of digging us out from either Scandinavian snows or Alpine fortresses; they'll starve first.
She thought about an old American science fiction series, Journey to the Stars or some such title. She had once enjoyed it greatly, though she found few of the plots believable two minutes after a show had ended. Nor had much of the philosophy of the show really moved her.

Yet two things had. The lesser of these was "having is not, after all, so pleasing a thing as wanting." Much more important, especially in her current circumstances, was the simple line, "Survival cancels out programming."
:?: Anyone know what she is talking about?

Anywaqy, Hans kills Kreuger, Dieter goes North while taking some momentos and the story is almost over...

Epilogue
Shudders ran through this ship as it sent cargo after cargo of kinetic death down onto the Darhel world. In the viewing screen Mühlenkampf and his mixed corps of SS and samurai officers watched with satisfaction as bright lines of dozens of descending KE projectiles ended in actinic flashes before giving birth to clouds of angry black.
:wtf: Why would the Japanese call their officer samuri? They already have multiple ranking systems that aren't feudal.
He looked forward to testing his brigade of E-model Tigers against the Darhel's half-baked pseudo-robots.
Uh, you are bombing them from space. Why send in troopers?
"We, on the other hand, are going to change you and we will succeed. This is because our sights are set lower. We only wish to change you from living to extinct.

"I hope you are pleased with what you have created. . . ."
It isn't an SS tale without genocide. I'd like to note that so far all we have seen is the Darhel's government... so essentially we are killing them all because their government was bastards. This isn't even conquest- this is extermination.
Initially a few ships seemed to try to make an escape. Shrieking useless admonitions that they were full of noncombatants, the ships attempted to run the human-imposed blockade.
We decided on doing a companion novella, "Back to Bataan," that would appear with Die Wacht am Rhein and would concern the Japanese defense of the Philippine Islands against the Posleen. (Which, by the way, we may still do. Time will tell.)
Kratmans wish list. Just... no.

And for Thanas, the glossery.
1 Let others speak of their shame,
I speak of my own . . .
O Germany, pale mother!
How have your sons ill-served you
That you sit beneath all nations
A mockery or a fright!



2 Federal Chancellor, the chief executive of the Federal Republic of Germany.



3 Germany's World War II armed forces: Army, Navy and Air Force.



4 Guest workers. Think Mexican fruit pickers but in a more regularized system. Many of them are Turks and Kurds. And yes, in 1997 the German legislature voted to ban soldiers from wearing their uniforms in public.



5 Two exemplary former regular officers who entered into, and commanded large formations of the Waffen SS. Steiner is also notable for remaining a staunch and devout Roman Catholic.



6 Hooked Crosses, swastikas.



7 The silver dual lightning bolts of the SS.



8 A contemptuous name for Heinrich Himmler, head of all the branches of the SS, to include the Waffen, or Armed, SS.



9 A Tir is a mid-level Darhel corporate executive.



10 To a large degree German boys get a choice of Army or some form of alternative service.



11 "Killers of elves." The Darhel are the elves.



12 "Highest." Colonel.



13 Economic Miracle; the recovery of Germany after World War II



14 Officer Candidate School for the Waffen, or armed, SS.



15 March with us in spirit, with the same step and tread. This is from the strictly forbidden "Horst Wessel Lied."



16 Raise the banner, hold the ranks steady.



17 Our flag flutters ahead of us

Our flag brings a new time

And our flag leads us forward to eternity

Yes our flag means more than our lives

This is from Baldur von Schirach's "Fahnenlied."



18 Center, face



19 Lieutenant General Mühlenkampf speaks.



20 A Kessentai who has forsaken, or for cowardice been driven from, The Path of Fury.



21 Forward, forward, Blow the bright trumpets



22 Attention, Attention, anti-tank guns in the direction of . . .



23 As you command, Dieter.



24 Dear God in Heaven!



25 Boys.



26 Though it storms or snows or the sun laughs on us

The day glowing hot or icy cold the night . . .



27 Our faces are dirty but our hearts are happy

Our tanks roar into the storm wind. . . .



28 The wife of a German Army friend of one of the authors, who was once Ribbentrop's secretary, describes him as a "weenie."



29 War economy.



30 Execution place.



31 Little dear.



32 I must then go.

To the little town

And you, my sweetheart, wait here.



33 Attention, Tank. Roll.



34 Armored Recon Brigade, Florian Geyer.



35 Hunters. Think, U.S. Army Ranger.



36 Shit, shit, shit!



37 Don't shoot.



38 Private Genjiro Shirakami was a bugler with the Imperial Japanese Army during the Russo-Japanese War. Mortally wounded during an assault on Port Arthur's defenses, Private Shirakami continued blowing the charge until he succumbed to his wounds. When his body was later found, the bugle—pointing heavenward—was still pressed to his lips.



39 Certainly not.



40 Hamburg's red-light district.



41 Comradeship.



42 Mine, alone, she'll be,

Not for anyone but me

And we'll live together through joy and pain

Until God cuts us apart again

Farewell, my love, farewell.



43 "The Watch on the Rhine." A German patriotic song, almost a second national anthem, as "Stonewall Jackson's Way" was throughout the American South, until quite recently, both.



44 Hard to translate. Gemütlichkeit is a sort of smarmy, comradely, soft and tender good feeling that perhaps only Germans are truly subject to.



45 In English, perhaps only the word "grunts" carries quite the same connotations.



46 Rye meal. For many decades, in war and peace, the Germans made a sort of ersatz, or replacement, coffee out of roasted rye meal. Less popular now than formerly, one could still expect them to fall back upon it in hard times.



47 Private.



48 Battle groups.



49 Combat engineers.

50 Leave it suffice that these were the formations that did most of the really ugly work behind lines on the Eastern Front. The Totenkopfverbaende, Death's Head Bands, ran the camps.
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Re: Watch on the Rhine ( ENTIRELY spoilers)

Post by Beowulf »

Samuel wrote:
She thought about an old American science fiction series, Journey to the Stars or some such title. She had once enjoyed it greatly, though she found few of the plots believable two minutes after a show had ended. Nor had much of the philosophy of the show really moved her.

Yet two things had. The lesser of these was "having is not, after all, so pleasing a thing as wanting." Much more important, especially in her current circumstances, was the simple line, "Survival cancels out programming."
:?: Anyone know what she is talking about?
It seemed obvious to me that it's a reference to Star Trek.
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Re: Watch on the Rhine ( ENTIRELY spoilers)

Post by Thanas »

Samuel wrote: 1 Let others speak of their shame,
I speak of my own . . .
O Germany, pale mother!
How have your sons ill-served you
That you sit beneath all nations
A mockery or a fright!
Bad lyrics as well?
4 Guest workers. Think Mexican fruit pickers but in a more regularized system. Many of them are Turks and Kurds. And yes, in 1997 the German legislature voted to ban soldiers from wearing their uniforms in public.
Wrong. Soldiers are not banned from wearing their uniforms, they are banned from wearing them while attending political rallies.

Kratman is an asshole and can't read.
10 To a large degree German boys get a choice of Army or some form of alternative service.
misrepresentation.
15 March with us in spirit, with the same step and tread. This is from the strictly forbidden "Horst Wessel Lied."

16 Raise the banner, hold the ranks steady.
Quoting the Horst weseel marsch. Lovely.

17 Our flag flutters ahead of us

Our flag brings a new time

And our flag leads us forward to eternity

Yes our flag means more than our lives

This is from Baldur von Schirach's "Fahnenlied."
Another Nazi song.


26 Though it storms or snows or the sun laughs on us

The day glowing hot or icy cold the night . . .



27 Our faces are dirty but our hearts are happy

Our tanks roar into the storm wind. . . .
A very bad tranlation of the Panzerlied.
32 I must then go.

To the little town

And you, my sweetheart, wait here.
Another bad tranlation of Muss i denn.
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
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A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
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Re: Watch on the Rhine ( ENTIRELY spoilers)

Post by Samuel »

It seemed obvious to me that it's a reference to Star Trek.
When did they have the moral that survival over-rides programming?

Also Thanas? Do Kratman wrote instead of Samuel wrote. It would be unfair to claim credit from such a... distinct writer.
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Re: Watch on the Rhine ( ENTIRELY spoilers)

Post by Thanas »

Edit time has run out, sadly.
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
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Re: Watch on the Rhine ( ENTIRELY spoilers)

Post by consequences »

Darth Hoth wrote:
consequences wrote:Since there's no mention of any variation beyond the 1mm or 3mm models and Kratmann can't even be bothered to say heavy or light, I'm going to go with no. And remember that the most competent threat Posleen faced before hitting humans was actually other Posleen during their regular planetary Ragnaroks(and internecine warfare leading up to such), massive over-penetration is actually a good thing, because the threat is another Posleen horde stretching back who knows how far.
Did they design their weapons themselves, though? I might be misremembering it, but I thought that they had essentially pirated Aldenat' designs and had no real understanding of how they work themselves.
By the Tuloriad, they did an unknown amount of their design work themselves. Apparently some Posleen genius came up with the Tunnel Drive, we don't know what else they may have designed themselves.
He also fucked up the fact that anything in the air that transmits immediately dies, and probably a number of other extremely basic facts that Ringo had previously established. All in favor of going 'ooh aren't I a dark and gritty writer'.
Or perhaps, he applied a little science and logic to Ringo's no-limits, no-numbers wankfest technowank uberweapons . . .
OMG it's so difficult to hit airbreathing targets limited to 20th Century tech with an AI guided lightspeed energy weapon! Especially one that's on a ballistic path with no capacity for changing its vector under its own power, or limited to the maneuvering capacity of a fucking glider:roll:


Orm wrote:
consequences wrote:No he didn't. If he did he'd mention how the moment they transmit, they die. And he'd have remembered that shit in Yellow Eyes, and come up with some other arbitrary way of killing off someone in a relationship to try to establish how dark and edgy he is as an author.
If they're detected to transmit. A directional signal won't be. The camera shells were also used in the books set in America, although they did get shot down (but not as fast as maneuvering objects).
Find me any reference to directional transmitters. Plus, of course, if it was that easy, The U.S. wouldn't have had to move to a laser communications sensor grid to avoid immediate detection, and directional transmitters for their own observation shells. And when a camera shell transmitted in WtDD, it was engaged within seconds.
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Re: Watch on the Rhine ( ENTIRELY spoilers)

Post by K. A. Pital »

These song fragments were god-awful.
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Re: Watch on the Rhine ( ENTIRELY spoilers)

Post by Orm »

consequences wrote:Find me any reference to directional transmitters. Plus, of course, if it was that easy, The U.S. wouldn't have had to move to a laser communications sensor grid to avoid immediate detection, and directional transmitters for their own observation shells. And when a camera shell transmitted in WtDD, it was engaged within seconds.
It's one possibility. A laser is a directional transmitter.
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Re: Watch on the Rhine ( ENTIRELY spoilers)

Post by consequences »

Orm wrote:
consequences wrote:Find me any reference to directional transmitters. Plus, of course, if it was that easy, The U.S. wouldn't have had to move to a laser communications sensor grid to avoid immediate detection, and directional transmitters for their own observation shells. And when a camera shell transmitted in WtDD, it was engaged within seconds.
It's one possibility. A laser is a directional transmitter.
Except glider boy was explicitly using a radio. It's also problematic for use in camera shells, because getting an exact bead on the receiver would be incredibly difficult.
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Re: Watch on the Rhine ( ENTIRELY spoilers)

Post by Darth Hoth »

consequences wrote:OMG it's so difficult to hit airbreathing targets limited to 20th Century tech with an AI guided lightspeed energy weapon! Especially one that's on a ballistic path with no capacity for changing its vector under its own power, or limited to the maneuvering capacity of a fucking glider:roll:
No, the retarded bit is that they cannot hit dumb shells, but can instantly triangulate the position of a shell with a radio inside it with minute exactness and no possible margin for error.
"But there's no story past Episode VI, there's just no story. It's a certain story about Anakin Skywalker and once Anakin Skywalker dies, that's kind of the end of the story. There is no story about Luke Skywalker, I mean apart from the books."

-George "Evil" Lucas
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