Netanyahu lifts leg, urinates on world opinion

[Darth Wong]

http://www.cbc.ca/cp/world/090601/w060147A.html

Netanyahu rejects calls for settlement freeze as mobs attack Palestinians
Published: Monday, June 1, 2009 | 10:42 AM ET
Canadian Press Amy Teibel, THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

NABLUS, West Bank - Israel's prime minister Monday rejected U.S. calls for a settlement freeze as unreasonable, moving closer to a collision with the Obama administration, while mobs of Jewish settlers attacked Palestinian labourers and burned West Bank fields.

Six Palestinians were injured in the stone-throwing attacks, meant to protest the removal of several tiny settler squatter camps by the government of Benjamin Netanyahu.

Monday's events highlighted Netanyahu's increasingly difficult balancing act. The hardline leader is trying to keep his pro-settler ruling coalition together by rejecting President Barack Obama's call for a halt to all settlement activity, at the risk of hurting Israel's all-important relationship with the United States.

In an apparent gesture to Obama, Netanyahu has begun dismantling small settler outposts built without formal government authorization. But even that limited step risks triggering settler violence against Palestinians and further international criticism of Israel.

Settlers have vowed to respond with attacks on Palestinians and their property to any attempt to remove even the tiniest enclave - a tactic known as "price tag."

"We will do everything we can to oppose this," said Yehuda Shimon, a resident of the Havat Gilad outpost in the northern West Bank.

In Jerusalem, Netanyahu briefed the Israeli parliament's Foreign Affairs and Defence Committee about his recent meeting with Obama at the White House. The American president and his secretary of state, Hillary Clinton, have demanded that Israel halt all settlement construction, including expansion to accommodate what Israel calls "natural growth" of settler communities.

Netanyahu said Israel cannot "freeze life" in settlements, according to a participant who spoke on condition of anonymity because the meeting was closed. Netanyahu was quoted as saying that "there are reasonable requests and unreasonable requests."

Monday's settler violence started near the radical settlement of Yizhar, police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld said. About 100 settlers blocked a road to protest Israel's recent removal of a handful of tiny, uninhabited outposts. Six settlers were later arrested.

Before dawn, near the Kedumim settlement, stone-throwing settlers ambushed a minivan carrying Palestinian labourers to Israel, the workers said. Six of the 15 Palestinians on board were hurt, including Yahye Sadah, 44, who was hit in the head and said he got six stitches.

Police said settlers threw rocks and burned tires in the area. The attackers fled and no arrests were made, they said.

A few hours later, settlers torched a wooded hilltop near Nablus and set trees and Palestinian agricultural land on fire near the village of Hawara, residents said. Romel Sweiti, a Hawara resident, said about 50 teenage settler girls gathered on a main road and blocked traffic as Israeli paramilitary police stood in the background.

Nearly 300,000 Israelis live in the settlements among 2.4 million Palestinians in the West Bank. Another 180,000 live in Jewish neighbourhoods of east Jerusalem. The Palestinians claim both areas - captured by Israel in the 1967 Middle East War - as parts of a future independent state.

In recent years, settlers have set up dozens of squatter camps, or so-called outposts, that lack formal government approval, but often received funding and support from government agencies. Israel has failed to keep a promise to the U.S., first made in 2003, to dismantle about two dozen outposts.

The U.S. considers the settlements an obstacle to peace, but traditionally has done little on the issue, a policy that appears to be changing under Obama.

Netanyahu has dispatched his defence minister, Ehud Barak, to Washington this week in hopes of winning approval to allow at least limited construction to continue in the settlements, apparently in exchange for removing outposts. But the Obama administration has so far signalled it is not willing to budge.

In another possible diplomatic entanglement, United Nations investigators Monday began looking into possible war crimes during Israel's three-week offensive against Gaza's Hamas rulers, even though they failed to secure a promise of co-operation from Israel.

Israeli officials have insisted the investigation, led by veteran war crimes prosecutor Richard Goldstone, would not be objective, citing alleged anti-Israel bias by the UN agency sponsoring it.

Goldstone, who is Jewish and has close ties to Israel, has said he wants to investigate both Israel and Hamas. He said Monday, after arriving in Gaza City with a 15-member team, he would deliver his report by August.

It's nice that Obama recognizes the volatile effect of these settlements on stability in the region, but I doubt he can actually apply real pressure to Netanyahu. Israel's "amen chorus" in the US still has overwhelming power, regardless of which party is in the White House.

[Mr Bean]

While Israel itself has overwhelming power the Netanyahu goverment does not. Should Obama speak the words "Netanyahu is not interested in peace" or words to that effect his government will bet tossed out of power so fast it's not even funny.

Some of Israeli residents can speak more on the local political situation, but the common wisdom is that while the average Israeli voter knows full well America does what Israel wants, they are also terrified that should America withdraw its support or even lessen it somewhat we will see an instant June 5th 1967 with the entire Middle East again making a play to destroy the Jewish state in mass.

Thus any Prime Minster who has the appearance of falling of the US Presidents friends list, is rapidly replaced with someone else, even if they spout the exact same positions and points, they will always(To date) drop the current PM and replace him with someone else as soon as the next election is called.

[Uraniun235]

We should cut all military aid entirely. It is completely preposterous that we should be sending billions of dollars in military aid grants to a developed nation with an arsenal of nuclear weapons.

[Samuel]

We should cut all military aid entirely. It is completely preposterous that we should be sending billions of dollars in military aid grants to a developed nation with an arsenal of nuclear weapons.

Most countries aren't surrounded by enemies... several of whom are supplied with aid to buy weapons to counter Israel

[Ace Pace]

Some of Israeli residents can speak more on the local political situation,

I'll try to keep the comments just on the local politics.

Netanyahu is in a complete bind. He is hog tied. His broad coalition is made up of "left" Labour, "right" Likud, Nationalistic-Right Israel Beyetyanu and a bunch of religious parties. He can't make any actual move without pissing off a power base.
Further more, his expected economic plans are a complete hogwash, the economic crises fucked him over and he had no plan B until the last moment. His entire international stand is centered around Iran (for good reason according to right wing Israeli politics) and he's not built to handle pressure on the settlements.

My not-anything-approaching-expert opinion is that Netanyahu will fold. He's doing this for show. He's also right now demolishing 20 some settlements.* Some of them large, some of them small. The illegal ones are being wiped out rather efficiently. He is also very much interested in reforming his past terms of office and getting a major peace deal done. Probably the Saudi peace plan, which allows for enough settlements.


* The fucking right wing idiots burned tires on the entrance to Jerusalem today, screwed my coming home by abit. They know the goverment will drop them for realistic purposes.

[Faqa]

He also has the issue that he has a, ah, certain deserved reputation for lying from his previous term in office. Yes, he managed to get a reputation for dishonesty unusual EVEN FOR A POLITICIAN.

This, combined with the fact that he's a free-market blowhard as I recall, leave him with a distinct lack of popularity these days.

And, as Ace said, his power base is composed of mutually opposed parties. No matter what he does, he's pissing someone off. This means schizophrenic behavior is pretty much mandated, which does not help his reputation.

If it weren't for the fact that I despise the man, I'd be feeling sorry for him.

[cosmicalstorm]

What are the long term prospects for Israel?

I've heard a lot of people making arguments such as "the smart people are leaving, the dumb ones are breeding like rats, they'll perish like other crusader fortresses in the desert have in the past" etc. but I don't know what to believe. It seems almost nobody is in a position to give a fairly non biased answer, everyone seems to be rooting for this or that side.

[Ace Pace]

What are the long term prospects for Israel?

I've heard a lot of people making arguments such as "the smart people are leaving, the dumb ones are breeding like rats, they'll perish like other crusader fortresses in the desert have in the past" etc. but I don't know what to believe. It seems almost nobody is in a position to give a fairly non biased answer, everyone seems to be rooting for this or that side.

Brain drain is definetly a problem, but it's a minor one compared to the bigger stuff.
In no particular order, these are "hot" items here:
Water - We're over consuming, no way around it. Desalination is not an option. Theres no support for nuclear power and we're not capable of that, not being signatories of the NPT, and not enough cash for other power generation means.

Arab-Jew divide is growing sharper and sharper and due to demographics is a serious problem. The worry is less "rah rah the arabs will overthrow us. this will not be a jewish state any longer! " and more labour problems. Arabs for various reasons work at around the percentage of the ultra-orthodox population. They are by far less educated than the Jewish population. This is partially by institutional racism and partially due to culture.

Jew-Jew divide. Seculer VS orthodox-jews/traditional-jews VS ultra-orthodox Jews. This is a pretty complicated subject to get into, and touches on the heart of the Settlement debate, but the short of it is that every single group wants a different Israel.

These are the pressing issues. Short term ones include Iran, Egypt's President (Mubarak isn't it?) dying, and other random "this might cause Israel to risk another 73' " events that are less interesting.

[cosmicalstorm]

Very interesting, thanks.

[Guardsman Bass]

What are the long term prospects for Israel?

I've heard a lot of people making arguments such as "the smart people are leaving, the dumb ones are breeding like rats, they'll perish like other crusader fortresses in the desert have in the past" etc. but I don't know what to believe. It seems almost nobody is in a position to give a fairly non biased answer, everyone seems to be rooting for this or that side.

Brain drain is definetly a problem, but it's a minor one compared to the bigger stuff.
In no particular order, these are "hot" items here:
Water - We're over consuming, no way around it. Desalination is not an option. Theres no support for nuclear power and we're not capable of that, not being signatories of the NPT, and not enough cash for other power generation means.

And a significant chunk of what fresh water there is happens to be located in two acquifers under the West Bank, if I remember right. Geography sure is a bitch.

Arab-Jew divide is growing sharper and sharper and due to demographics is a serious problem. The worry is less "rah rah the arabs will overthrow us. this will not be a jewish state any longer! " and more labour problems. Arabs for various reasons work at around the percentage of the ultra-orthodox population. They are by far less educated than the Jewish population. This is partially by institutional racism and partially due to culture.

I thought the "demographic" issue had eased off a bit within Israel proper and to some extent the West Bank, due to declining birth rates in those areas (Gaza is a whole other issue - they're breeding like rabbits).

Jew-Jew divide. Seculer VS orthodox-jews/traditional-jews VS ultra-orthodox Jews. This is a pretty complicated subject to get into, and touches on the heart of the Settlement debate, but the short of it is that every single group wants a different Israel.

Do the orthodox still have the stranglehold on official marriages and synagogue-building?

These are the pressing issues. Short term ones include Iran, Egypt's President (Mubarak isn't it?) dying, and other random "this might cause Israel to risk another 73' " events that are less interesting.

Didn't you mention once that funding for everything aside from defense was generally pretty short? I seem to remember you bitching about how the public education in your country suffered from the chronic under-funding that everything not defense-related suffered from.

[Uraniun235]

We should cut all military aid entirely. It is completely preposterous that we should be sending billions of dollars in military aid grants to a developed nation with an arsenal of nuclear weapons.

Most countries aren't surrounded by enemies... several of whom are supplied with aid to buy weapons to counter Israel

How much more fucking firepower do you think Israel needs?

[Surlethe]

Why are those countries supplied with military aid, anyway? It couldn't be because Israel is a regional US proxy because the US supplies aid to Israel, could it?

[Sea Skimmer]

Why are those countries supplied with military aid, anyway? It couldn't be because Israel is a regional US proxy because the US supplies aid to Israel, could it?

No actually it’s because Egypt controls the Suez Canal; by far the most strategic waterway on earth, while Jordan controls the second biggest US supply route into Iraq. Everything else is far secondary at this point.

[Pelranius]

Haven't we been giving the Jordanians military aid long before the current Iraq War?

[MKSheppard]

How much more fucking firepower do you think Israel needs?

Enough to fight off 9,000 semi-modern tanks (of which 800 are M1A1 Abrams sold to Egypt) in the Armies of Egypt, Jordan and Syria.

I have to point out that the middle east is a very dangerous flashpoint region -- none of Israel's peace treaties with it's neighbors have been really definitive; in the sense of what we would understand a peace treaty as -- El Al is prohibited from flying over most A-rab countries; though there are a few corridors laid out for them over Egypt; and in all the countries that signed peace treaties, there's an unending calvalcade of anti Jewish propaganda in virtually every medium of communication.

Add to that the fact that two of Israel's neighbors (Egypt and Jordan) are basically one bullet away from becoming regimes hostile to Israel -- Egypt has it's Islamic Brotherhood, and Muburak ain't looking too healthy; while Jordan's population is mostly "Palestinians" who have no loyalty to the Hashemite monarchy. Lebanon is at this point essentially Islamic Jihad Country Lite, since Hizbollah effectively controls the southern half of it.

So yeah, bad neighborhood.

[Ace Pace]

Brain drain is definetly a problem, but it's a minor one compared to the bigger stuff.
In no particular order, these are "hot" items here:
Water - We're over consuming, no way around it. Desalination is not an option. Theres no support for nuclear power and we're not capable of that, not being signatories of the NPT, and not enough cash for other power generation means.

And a significant chunk of what fresh water there is happens to be located in two acquifers under the West Bank, if I remember right. Geography sure is a bitch.

Not sure about that, but as far as I recall, the central water tranportation artery also crosses over into the West bank a few times.

I thought the "demographic" issue had eased off a bit within Israel proper and to some extent the West Bank, due to declining birth rates in those areas (Gaza is a whole other issue - they're breeding like rabbits).

The difference in birth rate has declined, in absolute terms the Arabs are still over breeding.

Jew-Jew divide. Seculer VS orthodox-jews/traditional-jews VS ultra-orthodox Jews. This is a pretty complicated subject to get into, and touches on the heart of the Settlement debate, but the short of it is that every single group wants a different Israel.

Do the orthodox still have the stranglehold on official marriages and synagogue-building? [/quote]

Yes. This is one of the few things that might change in the current goverment, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

Didn't you mention once that funding for everything aside from defense was generally pretty short? I seem to remember you bitching about how the public education in your country suffered from the chronic under-funding that everything not defense-related suffered from.

That's still true, education is funded like crap, our former great healthcare system is in shambles. Oddly enough, infrastructure has been getting alot of money since 2005. That's part of an odder problem in Israel, the armed camp mentality. Older Israeli members can comment better, but theres a strong feeling that Israel is constantly one step away from destruction and therfore must constantly focus on survival. You can imagine how that shift budget priorities, and peoples decisions.

[Coyote]

Well, as long as more and more schools were being run by low-budget/no-budget religious volunteers, the government didn't have to worry so much about education costs-- then wonder why there's generations of kids graduating that know all about temple law and how long a girl's skirt should be, but don't know jack-fuck how to run a business.

So what's the chance that Bibi will try to pull a "deGaulle" and crack down on the Settlements-- even if it means splitting his coalition but allowing to go out in a blaze of glory and vindication? He might be able to get away with it for awhile if he's able to blame Obama for it-- "the US put pressure on me; I have no choice, yadda yadda...."

[Ekiqa]

Regarding water, I read that Israel controls and owns 75% of the water in Palestine, and the main water company there is the Israeli government one.

[Surlethe]

Why are those countries supplied with military aid, anyway? It couldn't be because Israel is a regional US proxy because the US supplies aid to Israel, could it?

No actually it’s because Egypt controls the Suez Canal; by far the most strategic waterway on earth, while Jordan controls the second biggest US supply route into Iraq. Everything else is far secondary at this point.

So other countries supplying Arab nations with equipment has nothing to do with US sponsoring of Israel at all, but rather because Egypt has the Suez Canal and Jordan controls a big US supply route? It seems like those two reasons would induce arms sales, but that US sales to Israel would also be a major factor, to try to limit US influence in the region.

Besides, wouldn't the fact that Egypt controls the Suez Canal and Jordan controls a major US supply route be good reasons for the US to stop antagonizing them by backing Israel?

[Ace Pace]

Why are those countries supplied with military aid, anyway? It couldn't be because Israel is a regional US proxy because the US supplies aid to Israel, could it?

No actually it’s because Egypt controls the Suez Canal; by far the most strategic waterway on earth, while Jordan controls the second biggest US supply route into Iraq. Everything else is far secondary at this point.

So other countries supplying Arab nations with equipment has nothing to do with US sponsoring of Israel at all, but rather because Egypt has the Suez Canal and Jordan controls a big US supply route? It seems like those two reasons would induce arms sales, but that US sales to Israel would also be a major factor, to try to limit US influence in the region.

Besides, wouldn't the fact that Egypt controls the Suez Canal and Jordan controls a major US supply route be good reasons for the US to stop antagonizing them by backing Israel?

Jordan is a very strong ally of Israel, so I'll ignore that one.
Egypt is a very odd case. The top leadership knows they need Israel and would like to keep the peace, despite disliking Israel. This leads them to use the state media to keep the population on a very strong anti-Israel state of mind.

[Surlethe]

Jordan is a very strong ally of Israel, so I'll ignore that one.

My bad.

Egypt is a very odd case. The top leadership knows they need Israel and would like to keep the peace, despite disliking Israel. This leads them to use the state media to keep the population on a very strong anti-Israel state of mind.

How does that work? It would make more sense for them to try to shift public sentiment toward a pro-Israeli position; are they just doing it to support their own inclinations?

[Ma Deuce]

So other countries supplying Arab nations with equipment has nothing to do with US sponsoring of Israel at all, but rather because Egypt has the Suez Canal and Jordan controls a big US supply route? It seems like those two reasons would induce arms sales, but that US sales to Israel would also be a major factor, to try to limit US influence in the region.

Who said anything about other countries supplying them? He's talking about the direct military aid the US supplies to Egypt and Jordan. Egypt gets $1.8 billion a year in US aid of which $1.3 billion is military, Jordan gets $150 million a year, of which about half is military. Take a good look at the roster of equipment the Egyptian military now uses, and you'll note the high ratio of modern US made kit (F-16s, AH-64s, UH-60s M1A1 tanks etc.), all of which was paid for by your tax dollars.

[Surlethe]

Oh. I misinterpreted what he said. I'll end my trainwreck of direct participation in this thread now.

[The Grim Squeaker]

Just to nitpick on what Ace said .

Brain drain is definetly a problem, but it's a minor one compared to the bigger stuff.
In no particular order, these are "hot" items here:
Water - We're over consuming, no way around it. Desalination is not an option. Theres no support for nuclear power and we're not capable of that, not being signatories of the NPT, and not enough cash for other power generation means.

And a significant chunk of what fresh water there is happens to be located in two acquifers under the West Bank, if I remember right. Geography sure is a bitch.

Not sure about that, but as far as I recall, the central water tranportation artery also crosses over into the West bank a few times.

Most of ISrael's water (some 65-80% as I recall) comes from 2 aquifers, the coastal aquifier and a second aquifier, parts of which are indeed accessible from wells and reservoirs in the west bank.
I've never heard of the national water line going through the West bank, it sounds odd, since it was set up waaay before 67. (The lake it draws from Galillee/Kinneret provides only about 20% of the overall water supply though, as I recall)

I thought the "demographic" issue had eased off a bit within Israel proper and to some extent the West Bank, due to declining birth rates in those areas (Gaza is a whole other issue - they're breeding like rabbits).

The difference in birth rate has declined, in absolute terms the Arabs are still over breeding.

Both inside Israel and out of it. The highest is actually the Bedouin citizens of Israel. (multiple wives + massive families + welfare = profit), but it's a close match, with normal Jewish citizens running waaay behind.

Jew-Jew divide. Seculer VS orthodox-jews/traditional-jews VS ultra-orthodox Jews. This is a pretty complicated subject to get into, and touches on the heart of the Settlement debate, but the short of it is that every single group wants a different Israel.

Do the orthodox still have the stranglehold on official marriages and synagogue-building?

Yes. This is one of the few things that might change in the current goverment, but I wouldn't hold my breath.[/quote]
To clarify, the second largest member of Netanyahu's coalition, the nationalist-right wing party (Liberman - the minister of foreign affairs) is a secular one which isn't friendly to the religious parties, and this is one point they're pushing (vaguely).
As Pace said, possible, but who knows .

Didn't you mention once that funding for everything aside from defense was generally pretty short? I seem to remember you bitching about how the public education in your country suffered from the chronic under-funding that everything not defense-related suffered from.

That's still true, education is funded like crap, our former great healthcare system is in shambles.

That's the first i've heard about healthcare (apart from very low wages for some medical professions, such as anasthecians or nurses).
Ace, got anything for me about that? (I don't mind Hebrew ).

That's part of an odder problem in Israel, the armed camp mentality. Older Israeli members can comment better, but theres a strong feeling that Israel is constantly one step away from destruction and therfore must constantly focus on survival. You can imagine how that shift budget priorities, and peoples decisions.

Yup Yup.