The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Forty One Up

[TheClueless]

The idea will be to get Uriel in shit with the boss, so to speak, rather than get him hurt in the process.

No, Michael quite explicitly wants Uriel dead.

Uriel was too loyal and too deadly to live.

Not too terribly ambiguous.

I don't doubt that that's the end goal, but it's also pretty clear that he doesn't just want him killed outright by the humans, or at least he fears for the damage he'll do in the process of getting himself killed. Otherwise, why wouldn't he simply pass along Yahweh's command: to take out their biggest city, immediately. No, he wants Uriel to get in trouble -- the fatal kind of trouble -- with the boss.

That's a good point about how Michael's going to alter Yahwek's command when he tells Uriel about this meeting. It also seems to tie into the question of just how much powerful Michael is - both at a personal level, and in regards to the forces loyal to him. More importantly this, combined with the chapters we have so far seem to answer the question of what Michael's doing to weaken Yahweh's forces and strengthen his own.

My take on Michael's thoughts about Uriel is that Michael honestly thinks that he could kill Uriel himself. But it wouldn't be easy, Michael would definately get hurt doing it, and there is *no* way Michael could keep it quiet. Which would almost certainly lead to a confrontation with Yahweh and those loyal (for one reason or another) to him.

Michael has angels that answer to him, although it's been clearly stated that at least some of them are more loyal to others (probably Yahweh for the vast majority - if not all - of the angels in question). Michael has influence over a (presumably large) group of angels that don't officialy answer to him, due to his illegal sex, illegal music and illegal substances enterprises. Including both Gabriel and Jesus. He's also practically Heaven's Secretary of Defence.

And Michael still doesn't think he'd be able to take Yahweh out. Get a draw, forge his own breakaway realm and engage in a Cold War like Satan? Yes. But kill Yahweh and all those too loyal to the current power structure for Michael to ever trust them? No.

Coincidentally sending only angels who aren't "his people" on what he feels are suicide missions against humanity is one way to tilt the scales in his favor. Getting Yahweh (eventually, if all goes according to plan) to execute Uriel (one of the most loyal, powerful and dangerous angels) would help do this in several ways. First off, Uriel dies. But, perhaps more importantly, it would almost certainly get at least some of other angels currently loyal to Yahweh to re-think their decisions.

Of course, Michael's plan is made a touch more complex due to the fact that - whether he knows it or not - Uriel already has some doubts about him...

(Edited, as recommended.)

[Edward Yee]

Of course, Michael's plan is made a touch more complex due to the fact that - whether he knows it or not - Uriel already has some doubts about him...

The Clueless

That, and he's not the only one. Wonder how many Michael can kill off before Uriel and others catch on that something's up?

[NomAnor15]

Maybe this is a stupid question, but how in the hell did Turkey of all places contribute more armor than France and Germany combined?

[Sute]

Now that was a good question. Michael rolled the question around in his mind. He doubted Uriel actually snuffed out souls, in his mind it was more probable he simply sent them somewhere else. There were, after all, enough places to send them to.

So even the angels don't know what happens to the souls of the people Uriel kills? That's a surprise. I'd suspected that whoever watched over the Heaven-side Deathgate (Azrael? He's the Grim Reaper-style angel of death, right?) just diverted them for interrogation instead of sending them through to Hell. Though I suppose that unless that was already hush-hush way-back-when Satan would have known about it...

That, and he's not the only one. Wonder how many Michael can kill off before Uriel and others catch on that something's up?

Others? Who are the others we've seen doubting Michael's loyalty?

[Beowulf]

Maybe this is a stupid question, but how in the hell did Turkey of all places contribute more armor than France and Germany combined?

Because they have more tanks than France and Germany combined? They've got a border with Iran, and have had a series of skirmishes with Greece.

[tim31]

Turkey have a long and illustrious military career that better researchers than I could expound.

What do angels/denizens of heaven eat? Has this been covered? They don't eat humans, like in hell... Do they?

Also, Clueless, don't add your name to the end of each post, it's pretentious. Fgalkin pulls it off because he has tenure.

[Darth Wong]

Of course, Michael's plan is made a touch more complex due to the fact that - whether he knows it or not - Uriel already has some doubts about him...

The Clueless

That, and he's not the only one. Wonder how many Michael can kill off before Uriel and others catch on that something's up?

Michael's obviously very smart, and he's killing Uriel in a manner that no one can really track it back to him. He didn't lie to Yahweh about Uriel's limited success or timidity: that was entirely accurate. If Uriel gets killed attacking an American strongpoint, that can hardly be blamed on Michael either, since that was Yahweh's direct command.

Michael isn't openly doing anything that can be pinned on him. He's simply manipulating circumstances so that misfortune will befall those who are inconvenient to his schemes, but his hands are still clean.

Personally, I think he's awesome, and not just because I share his name.

[Mr Bean]

Turkey have a long and illustrious military career that better researchers than I could expound.

What do angels/denizens of heaven eat? Has this been covered? They don't eat humans, like in hell... Do they?

Also, Clueless, don't add your name to the end of each post, it's pretentious. Fgalkin pulls it off because he has tenure.

Don't listen to him, Fgalkin does this because Fgalkin really does wishes everyone to have a nice day.

Michael isn't openly doing anything that can be pinned on him. He's simply manipulating circumstances so that misfortune will befall those who are inconvenient to his schemes.

The next question is how long has this been going on, how long has he been "interpreting" Yahweh's orders and if he has also been guiding him. Like to say kick off a certain war?

We are all getting the warm and fuzzes for Michael right now because he's seems likable, but if he's the reason for the Salvation War in the first place, that lovely feeling might be somewhat lost. Even if on the balance it's been a good thing.

[D.Turtle]

Maybe this is a stupid question, but how in the hell did Turkey of all places contribute more armor than France and Germany combined?

Currently Germany has 3 Armored Divisions incorporating a grand total of 6 Tank Battalions, 8 Mechanized Infantry Battalions, 2 Artillery Battalions, and various other forces (Sure on the tanks, hope I didn't miss any on the other stuff). Adding the tanks we have for training and the like, we have a total of about 300 MBT. Germany has massively downsized its army following the reunification and the downfall of the Soviet Union, the thinking being that we currently have no direct threat to our security, as we are surrounded by allies. The current expectation is that there will be a strategic lead time of at least 20 years before there can be a serious threat to our security requiring a rearming/reforming of the armed forces. So, the armed forces are being or have been downsized as much as possible, only retaining a small force in order to save some of the experience gathered over the decade (and the infrastructure and knowledge of building the vehicles and the like).

Well, in this situation, that thinking has been slightly wrong.

Turkey is in a very different situation, as they have the Kurds, Greece, and Iraq right on their doorstep (and in their country).

[MarshalPurnell]

It's pretty clear Yahweh decided on the Salvation War given our access to Michael's thoughts.

The real "trap," so to speak, is that Michael clearly wasn't always the humanophile that he is now. He would have done some very ugly things in the past and undoubtedly has enough blood on his hands to be a first-class genocidal criminal. I am of course reminded by this of the reaction to Hermann Goering from The Big One, and Stuart's thoughts on the character. Michael is not a Nice Guy and his facade of bonhomie covers up a ruthlessly pragmatic personality that has few qualms about killing anyone inconvenient to his plans.

That's not to say that Michael is exactly like Hermann Goering. Just that there seems to be a resemblance there in the way the character has come off. Michael is exceedingly likable in his present incarnation, and easily my favorite character of the story thus far, but he isn't all sweetness and light (or sex, drugs, and rock & roll). The touches of levity are certainly welcome and highly amusing, but there is something darker about his character that could make him a formidable enemy of humanity. Though that's probably also true about all worthwhile allies, and as Michael has observed, humans can be exceedingly pragmatic about keeping promises (and exacting revenge) if it is in their interests.

[TheClueless]

Now that was a good question. Michael rolled the question around in his mind. He doubted Uriel actually snuffed out souls, in his mind it was more probable he simply sent them somewhere else. There were, after all, enough places to send them to.

So even the angels don't know what happens to the souls of the people Uriel kills? That's a surprise. I'd suspected that whoever watched over the Heaven-side Deathgate (Azrael? He's the Grim Reaper-style angel of death, right?) just diverted them for interrogation instead of sending them through to Hell. Though I suppose that unless that was already hush-hush way-back-when Satan would have known about it...

I believe it was implied a part or two ago that Heaven, Hell and Earth's universe were just three of a very large number of universes. It could be that Uriel's ability sends the the souls he kills with it to one - or more - of these other universes.

For that matter, it's already been stated that America - at the very least - isn't going to automatically assume that humanity's inter-universal wars are going to end once Heaven's been dealt with.

I can't help but wonder at the reaction of Joe Public from this version of Earth, if one of the future exploration parties comes across the Forgotten Realms setting. Especially if they learn what happens to people who die without having a patron god(dess), or aren't sufficiently devout in regards to said patron god(dess).

That, and he's not the only one. Wonder how many Michael can kill off before Uriel and others catch on that something's up?

Others? Who are the others we've seen doubting Michael's loyalty?

Remember the member of Michael's own angelic army that we see during the bio-attack? He found it curious that he was given the honor of smiting Yahweh's enemies by Michael, when he felt he wasn't close to his (direct) superior.

While not as suspicious of Michael as Uriel, the seeds seemed to have been there. Which might have been one of the reasons why Michael did give him the "honor" in question.

[Darth Wong]

I can't help but wonder at the reaction of Joe Public from this version of Earth, if one of the future exploration parties comes across the Forgotten Realms setting. Especially if they learn what happens to people who die without having a patron god(dess), or aren't sufficiently devout in regards to said patron god(dess).

Richard Dawkins showed up in Hell, so it would appear that people without a patron deity simply go to Hell along with everyone else.

While not as suspicious of Michael as Uriel, the seeds seemed to have been there. Which might have been one of the reasons why Michael did give him the "honor" in question.

He did not seem to doubt Michael's loyalty; he was only curious at the fact that Michael chose him for such a high honour despite not apparently being particularly close to him. I didn't get the impression that there were any seeds of doubt. The problem with that individual was not doubt, but rather, the fact that Michael had perceived him to be too loyal to the Cause.

Imagine being a member of the Taliban who develops doubts. Maybe you know some others who also have doubts. Maybe you can create an enclave because you are powerful and well-connected, and maybe you can break some of the rules, and maybe you can even entertain treasonous thoughts. But you would have to be very, very careful about vetting potential recruits to your inner circle, and you would be watchful for certain red-flag behaviours.

[NomAnor15]

Because they have more tanks than France and Germany combined? They've got a border with Iran, and have had a series of skirmishes with Greece.

Currently Germany has 3 Armored Divisions incorporating a grand total of 6 Tank Battalions, 8 Mechanized Infantry Battalions, 2 Artillery Battalions, and various other forces (Sure on the tanks, hope I didn't miss any on the other stuff). Adding the tanks we have for training and the like, we have a total of about 300 MBT. Germany has massively downsized its army following the reunification and the downfall of the Soviet Union, the thinking being that we currently have no direct threat to our security, as we are surrounded by allies. The current expectation is that there will be a strategic lead time of at least 20 years before there can be a serious threat to our security requiring a rearming/reforming of the armed forces. So, the armed forces are being or have been downsized as much as possible, only retaining a small force in order to save some of the experience gathered over the decade (and the infrastructure and knowledge of building the vehicles and the like).

Well, in this situation, that thinking has been slightly wrong.

Turkey is in a very different situation, as they have the Kurds, Greece, and Iraq right on their doorstep (and in their country).

Interesting explanation, thank you. I guess I had a mental image of Turkey as a somewhat isolated, unobtrusive place.

[Stuart Mackey]

Oi, Slade, you forgot the New Zealand Division (4th of 3 NZEF) attached along with the Brits and Aussies.
Of course equipment will be an issue...but we do field units far better in fighting effectiveness than their US equivalents.

[K. A. Pital]

Did you know one of their divisions is getting a mix of T-34s and KV-1s?

The T-34, I can believe - but the KV-1? There's barely 10-20 of them surviving in the whole world. Servicing them would probably be more trouble than the machines are worth...

[Darth Wong]

Frankly, at this point I think the tanks and airplanes are an almost trivial concern. They have absolutely no way to strike back against the enemy, or to even insert so much as a big toe into their territory. Until that situation is rectified, they could have all the tanks and planes imaginable, and it wouldn't do a damned bit of good.

[Mr Bean]

Did you know one of their divisions is getting a mix of T-34s and KV-1s?

The T-34, I can believe - but the KV-1? There's barely 10-20 of them surviving in the whole world. Servicing them would probably be more trouble than the machines are worth...

On re-read that struck me as well. If you want to mix two Russian tanks together why not the T-34 and the IS-3? There lacking in tank bodies for them but as I understand the turrets are still intact acting as turrents along the Russia/Chinese border. In fact they are a little bit famous as a the standard example of the then Soviets never throwing anything away. The turrets are still there as far as I know, they only need chassis's to mount on, the have to be able to kludge together some old T-54 chassis. According to my book the turret rings are roughly the same size on the two tanks.

Frankly, at this point I think the tanks and airplanes are an almost trivial concern. They have absolutely no way to strike back against the enemy, or to even insert so much as a big toe into their territory. Until that situation is rectified, they could have all the tanks and planes imaginable, and it wouldn't do a damned bit of good.

Freed Mongolian hordes and Hell. Just because the planes are tanks are useless in attacking Heavan at the moment does not mean they can't be shifted into Hell to move the Abrams and other more modern equipment out so it can be repaired and readied for any attack on Heaven.

[Darth Wong]

Frankly, at this point I think the tanks and airplanes are an almost trivial concern. They have absolutely no way to strike back against the enemy, or to even insert so much as a big toe into their territory. Until that situation is rectified, they could have all the tanks and planes imaginable, and it wouldn't do a damned bit of good.

Freed Mongolian hordes and Hell. Just because the planes are tanks are useless in attacking Heavan at the moment does not mean they can't be shifted into Hell to move the Abrams and other more modern equipment out so it can be repaired and readied for any attack on Heaven.

I think I communicated my point poorly. I wasn't saying that they should actually halt production or stop what they're doing. It's just that the politicians and military strategists seem to be a bit too focused on such matters and not sufficiently alarmed about their complete inability to strike back at the enemy. For example, the Brits are annoyed about not having independent command of military forces, but they don't seem concerned at all about the fact that they appear to have no independent research effort ongoing about portals, locating Heaven, and countermeasures against angel attacks. The entire world seems to have happily ceded that initiative to the Americans, and after a year, I would have thought that each nation would be attempting to develop its own portal research program. This is an enormously important technology, after all. I would tend to think that progress on this front would be item #1 in any briefing, before proceeding to other matters such as procurement of tanks and planes, and I just can't see other nations not attempting to develop their own portal research groups by now.

[Stuart Mackey]

Frankly, at this point I think the tanks and airplanes are an almost trivial concern. They have absolutely no way to strike back against the enemy, or to even insert so much as a big toe into their territory. Until that situation is rectified, they could have all the tanks and planes imaginable, and it wouldn't do a damned bit of good.

Well actually one does need them, to train on: It takes some time to work up divisions etc to an acceptable standard and its not just a few months either and this is especially tue when you enemy could strike anywhere.

[Darth Wong]

If I were a Chinese military strategist, I would be looking at some hard numbers: with a population of 1.3 billion, the statistical likelihood suggests that I should have huge untapped portal specialist resources at my command, if I can only identify them. This gives me not only an important weapon against Heaven, but an important strategic asset for the balance of power on Earth after the conclusion of any such campaign against Heaven.

Just saying ...

[TheClueless]

The real "trap," so to speak, is that Michael clearly wasn't always the humanophile that he is now. He would have done some very ugly things in the past and undoubtedly has enough blood on his hands to be a first-class genocidal criminal. I am of course reminded by this of the reaction to Hermann Goering from The Big One, and Stuart's thoughts on the character. Michael is not a Nice Guy and his facade of bonhomie covers up a ruthlessly pragmatic personality that has few qualms about killing anyone inconvenient to his plans.

Agreed. On several levels.

Michael isn't responsible for Yahweh telling Satan that humanity was his for the taking. Michael isn't entirely responsible for Yahweh underestimating humanity either; Uriel - at the very least - either never told Yahweh why he stopped visiting the "first world" nations on Earth a few decades ago, or didn't make it obvious enough to get through Yahweh's ego.

But it seems pretty clear to me that he could have said more to Yahweh.

Likewise, anyone who thinks that Michael - even if you ignore his past - is a friend to humanity should remember that one of the key reasons why he hasn't already staged a revolt against against Yahweh is because he wouldn't be satisfied for a partial victory like Satan ended up with. Michael wants all of Heaven. His thoughts make me seriously doubt, however, that he'll be satisfied with "just" Heaven. And, at least as stands right now, he's (apparently) smart enough to know his limits.

Combined with his greater knowledge of modern humanity, Michael is probably a greater threat to humanity's freedom than Yahweh, at least in the long term. Even with the losses to Heaven's population that would surely occur with a successful revolution.

Even in the short-term, Michael holds the potential to be very dangerous to humanity. Remember that one of Satan's chief worries once he finally started to understand how dangerous modern human armies were was that even if he defeated humanity, that he wouldn't have enough forces left to hold off Yahweh's angels. Which would allow Yahweh's angels to take both Hell and Earth.

I can see Michael planning things so that - if enough of the battle plans succeed - the angels loyal to Yahweh do significant damage to humanity before dying. It would keep Yahweh from turning his wrath on Michael before the revolt occurs, and would keep humanity from being in a position to invade Heaven during - or after - the revolt. And if Yahweh's loyalists do enough damage that Michael's forces can safely conquer Earth and Hell in the aftermath of a successful revolt against Yahweh? Bonus.

[Stuart Mackey]

snip The entire world seems to have happily ceded that initiative to the Americans, and after a year, I would have thought that each nation would be attempting to develop its own portal research program. This is an enormously important technology, after all. I would tend to think that progress on this front would be item #1 in any briefing, before proceeding to other matters such as procurement of tanks and planes, and I just can't see other nations not attempting to develop their own portal research groups by now.

I think that Stuart addressed this in the previous book, nations would be contributing what they have to the American efforts on the basis that they have a comparative advantage on the R&D side of things in a certain area. Having said that I have no doubt that other nations would have learnt a few lessons from WW2, esp the Brits, and put the hard word in the US about free access to that technology. I have no doubt that the US would be putting their resources to other nations who had comparative advantages in other area's in return for the tech that is developed of their programmes.

[Ilya Muromets]

Ah, Mikey, you magnificently sneaky bastard. And it's ironic that he's using addiction to get angels over to his side against what's basically another addict--it's just that said addict is addicted to endless, mindless adulation.

Also, now we have an in-story implication that Uriel might not be a soul-killer after all but may just be sending them to another dimension aside from the known three of Heaven, Hell, and our own. I sense that this will be an intriguing plot point in future installments. Not to mention how Uriel's gonna take essentially being ordered to go on a suicide run.

Oh, and the Philippines actually decides to send a division to the Eastern forces. Oh, man, if they ever end up in the front lines against angelic heavies they're well and truly fucked. The Philippines has NO air-cover other than OV-10 Broncos, Huey gunships, and MG-520 attack choppers. All of its F-5s had to be retired years ago because they just couldn't keep the things flying anymore (hell, they were way older than the pilots). The only jets the PAF even have are a handful of S-11 trainers.

It was also mentioned that armor is important in the front lines. The Philippine Army is fucked there as well. Most of the Philippine Army's armored vehicles are only APCs and IFVs. We only have 42 old British FV101 Scorpion light tanks as our heavier armor, and a chink of those are rusting and inoperable after being cannibalized for parts.

[TheClueless]

I can't help but wonder at the reaction of Joe Public from this version of Earth, if one of the future exploration parties comes across the Forgotten Realms setting. Especially if they learn what happens to people who die without having a patron god(dess), or aren't sufficiently devout in regards to said patron god(dess).

Richard Dawkins showed up in Hell, so it would appear that people without a patron deity simply go to Hell along with everyone else.

I should have been more clear. If you're on Toril (AKA Abeir-Toril, the main habitable planet in the Forgotten Realm's setting) and you die without being sufficiently devoted to a patron god(dess) your afterlife options pretty much suck. Unless you manage to make a deal with a devil before you get judged, or get kidnapped by demons, you'll be declared one of the False (if your faith wasn't strong enough) or one of the Faithless (if you didn't have a patron god(dess) ).

The False are eternally punished in the realm of the god of death by his faitful and by contracted devils. The Faithless are attached to the wall encircling said realm; the mortar of the Wall of the Faithless is not only very sticky, but it's acidic qualities will slowly and painfully turn you into more mortar in a couple of centuries.

And these negative reinforcements were put in place long before the local Overgod decided that the power levels of the local gods would be tied into the number of worshipers they have and their strength.

To be fair, the devout worshippers seem to have it better in Toril's universe than they do if they ended up in Yahweh's Heaven. Eventually they either become divine servants (the equivelent of angels) or "become one with their chosen god(dess)".

While not as suspicious of Michael as Uriel, the seeds seemed to have been there. Which might have been one of the reasons why Michael did give him the "honor" in question.

He did not seem to doubt Michael's loyalty; he was only curious at the fact that Michael chose him for such a high honour despite not apparently being particularly close to him. I didn't get the impression that there were any seeds of doubt. The problem with that individual was not doubt, but rather, the fact that Michael had perceived him to be too loyal to the Cause.

Point taken. The angel in question thought it was somewhat strange to be given this honor, but didn't seem to have any doubts about Michael.

It'll be interesting, however, to see how successful Michael is at keeping his own forces intact without raising suspicions as the war drags on and the casualties among the angels mount.

[Junghalli]

Story is going well so far. The Angels so far are making much cooler and more intimidating opponents than the Demons IMO. Some thoughts I had on the situation from their end:


1) Somebody mentioned whether the plagues would do much damage now that we have antibiotics and vaccines. I would not put it past the Angels to be able to create resistant plagues. They and the Demons have shown some skill with biotechnology, creating the Krakens, Heralds, Cherubs, giant hydra etc. The Angels seem much more clued into what's going on with Earth than the Demons, so it's rather likely they know about modern medicine. And in principle antibiotic resistant bacteria could be created even with crude selective breeding techniques. Take a bunch of humans, expose them to the disease, treat them with antibiotics almost but not quite enough to cure them, let the disease bounce back, then start the treatment again. Continue this long enough and you're bound to get resistant strains. Ideally you'd want to start off with weak antibiotics and then work your way up until you've got one hell of a nasty disease that's resistant to everything. Getting test subjects shouldn't have been hard prior to the discovery of the tin foil effect: possess a human (the Demons can do it, no reason to think the Angels couldn't), command him to walk or drive to some desolate spot, and whisk him off to Heaven via a small portal. And if Michael can get significant amounts of illegal drugs from Earth then getting their hands on large volumes of antibiotics should also be possible.

Man, now I'm remembering that flashback scene in Razor and imagining human troops busting into Heaven and finding some Angelic lab of horror where thousands of abducted humans were hideously killed in gruesome medical experiments. Awesome (in an out-universe sense, of course).

At the very least I can see Michael doing something like this.


2) Uriel attacking a major US city. He could do it a lot less dangerously if he was more subtle than the fly over the city and do the "my peace be unto you" thing from the air. My impression is that he needs line of sight for an attack, but he wouldn't necessarily have to be in the air to get this. Just thinking about my own home, there are several spots I've been to up in the Berkeley hills where you can get a great commanding view of the Bay Area, and from which he could probably kill thousands or millions of people depending on the range of that attack (not counting whatever resistance factor tinfoil or modern technology or whatever seems to create). I imagine there are quite a few private homes he could do this from, for extra privacy while going about his dirty work (after quietly disposing of the inhabitants, of course). For a target like New York he could try doing it from the top of a tall skyscraper. Of course, he might have to blend in somewhat with the human population to do this, but from the description in Armageddon he seemed to be around human size, so he could probably conceal himself with a long hooded coat or poncho. If he could find some place to do this with privacy this might overcome the limitation he seemed to suffer earlier - the implication I got from it was he could have killed everyone, but it would have needed time and concentration that he didn't have. It would be cool if he unexpectedly survived Michael's suicide mission and managed to cause some damage to Earth in the process by doing something like this.


3) If Michael is getting trade goods from Earth, what else is he getting? He seems smart enough, I could see him being interested in acquiring modern military technology. I doubt he could build a modern army (he doesn't have the logistical base), but he might be able to whip up a few unpleasant suprises of his own for Earth.