Autism Drug Worse Than Placebo, Caused Nightmares

SLAM: debunk creationism, pseudoscience, and superstitions. Discuss logic and morality.

Moderator: Alyrium Denryle

Post Reply
User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28822
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest

Autism Drug Worse Than Placebo, Caused Nightmares

Post by Broomstick »

I've had a theory for quite awhile that some stuff done to disabled kids is not done to help them, it's done for the comfort and/or convenience of those around them. Now, I don't doubt that most doctors who prescribed Celexa did so with good intentions, but good intentions don't always result in good results.

From the Chicago Sun-Times
Autism drug just caused nightmares: study

An antidepressant that's among the most popular kinds of medicine used for treating autism didn't work for most kids and caused nightmares and other side effects, researchers say.

The risks associated with taking Celexa outweighed any benefits in the largest published study of medication versus dummy pills for autism, said Dr. Bryan King, lead author of the study, reported Monday in the Archives of General Psychiatry.

The drug isn't approved for treating autism, but many doctors have prescribed it, thinking it might help prevent repetitive behaviors such as spinning, twirling and head-banging that are hallmark autism symptoms.

Similar antidepressants have been shown to help treat repetitive actions in people with obsessive-compulsive disorder.

But in the autism study, Celexa worked no better than dummy pills. In fact, compared with kids on placebos, those on Celexa were more than twice as likely to develop repetitive behaviors, as well as other side effects including sleep problems and hyperactivity.

Celexa is in a class of antidepressants known as selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors, which are widely used autism. The new research could "change this practice," said prominent Yale autism researcher Dr. Fred Volkmar.
I think were several flaws in the steps leading to this drug being prescribed, in no particular order:

- Parents desperate to "do something" for their autistic children. While I could see head-banging as damaging, twirling and spinning are much less likely to be harmful to to the child. While there are unhealthy extremes, I don't see repetitive behavior, in and of itself, to necessarily be so disturbing a symptom that it must be eradicated through medication. After all, many normal people find repetitive behaviors soothing when under stress (that's why we have rocking chairs, right?) and autistic people have quite a bit to be stressed about, such as communication difficulties.

- Parents desperate for the appearance of normality. Autistic people, particularly the young ones, can behave in weird ways. I don't blame the parents for wanting a magic pill to make the weird go away, but this one is not it. For now, it looks like we still have to laboriously and tediously educate autistic people in how to behave properly. Sort of like we have to do for all children, but more so in the case of autism.

- Doctors desperate to "do something" for their patients. Most doctors do care about people, that's why they go into medicine (well, that and money). It is extremely frustrating for them to be unable to help someone. There is a tendency for them to sometimes do something for the sake of doing something, nor is it limited to autism. I had to face that problem during my mother's final illness where at one point we had to tell medical people to just her alone already. Of course, the flip side is doctors giving up on patients, but that's a different topic.

- Assumption that a particular symptom always has the same cause. In this case: hey, obsessive-compulsive people engage in repetitive actions and this drug helps them, maybe it will help everyone with problem repetitive actions! It's an understandable thought, but such things need to be backed up be research. In this case, the research says nope, it won't help everyone. The symptoms may be similar, but the underlying causes are probably significantly different.

Clearly, this information needs to be disseminated so autistic children who are on this drug can be taken off it, since clearly it's not helpful. As I said, I understand the impulse to look for a magic pill to cure these people, but I don't think that will work any more than pharmaceuticals can cure a missing limb at this point. My opinion (subject to change with receipt of more information) is that what we currently have to help the autistic is educating them and training them to deal with the world as it is, a long tedious process that requires years. Note that I don't advocate hammering them into the appearance of normality but rather giving them tools with which to cope with the world and society. I also think we need to educate the families of people with autism to understand that there isn't a cure (at least not at this point) and they are going to have to cope with the fact that their relative is always going to be odd. We do not have a way to make these people normal (whatever that means anyhow) and there needs to be a certain level of acceptance for that or else we'll continue to see desperate parents pushing ineffective medication on their children.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
User avatar
Solauren
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 10338
Joined: 2003-05-11 09:41pm

Re: Autism Drug Worse Than Placebo, Caused Nightmares

Post by Solauren »

You hit the nail right on the head.

I've known/know (currently casually, but previously actively) autistic people, including younger children. In some cases, the autism seemed pretty 'extreme'.

I can understand why some peopel are so freaked out by it. Especially with the general lack of knowledge about it, and progress towards treating it (if it's even treatable).

Right now, the key to handling autism is patience, understanding, and kindness on the part of those around the autistic, and more patience, detailed, through research on the part of the medical community.
I've been asked why I still follow a few of the people I know on Facebook with 'interesting political habits and view points'.

It's so when they comment on or approve of something, I know what pages to block/what not to vote for.
User avatar
Morilore
Jedi Master
Posts: 1202
Joined: 2004-07-03 01:02am
Location: On a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.

Re: Autism Drug Worse Than Placebo, Caused Nightmares

Post by Morilore »

SSRIs are "widely used autism"? When did this happen?

I take citalopram (= Celexa) for its primary purpose, and given how screwed up withdrawal from it can make me, it seems pretty obvious that it's not fucking Tylenol and you don't toss it at anything.

People should adopt an attitude of "medicate only when absolutely necessary." Not just the desire to "do something" but the assumption that that "something" has to be drugs is an issue here.
"Guys, don't do that"
User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28822
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest

Re: Autism Drug Worse Than Placebo, Caused Nightmares

Post by Broomstick »

[Hysterical parent]

But - but - it IS necessary to treat autism! It's a disorder! My beautiful baby boy/girl needs to be fixed!

[/Hysterical parent]
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
User avatar
SirNitram
Rest in Peace, Black Mage
Posts: 28367
Joined: 2002-07-03 04:48pm
Location: Somewhere between nowhere and everywhere

Re: Autism Drug Worse Than Placebo, Caused Nightmares

Post by SirNitram »

They're too much EFFORT!

I've experienced no nightmares on it, but if there's a statistical correlation, yea. Also, the off-label use of pills to 'treat autism' needs to stop, NOW. Because of shit like this. And because it's a ridiculous farce of medicine, almost as bad as mixing hyperbaric chambers and O2 therapy in the home.. In direct violation of FDA warnings and fire codes.
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.

Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.

Shadowy Overlord - BMs/Black Mage Monkey - BOTM/Jetfire - Cybertron's Finest/General Miscreant/ASVS/Supermoderator Emeritus

Debator Classification: Trollhunter
User avatar
SirNitram
Rest in Peace, Black Mage
Posts: 28367
Joined: 2002-07-03 04:48pm
Location: Somewhere between nowhere and everywhere

Re: Autism Drug Worse Than Placebo, Caused Nightmares

Post by SirNitram »

Morilore wrote:SSRIs are "widely used autism"? When did this happen?
When the snake-oil salesmen and the Pharmacuticals realized that, together, there was an unlimited amount of money to be made by recommending off-label use.
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.

Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.

Shadowy Overlord - BMs/Black Mage Monkey - BOTM/Jetfire - Cybertron's Finest/General Miscreant/ASVS/Supermoderator Emeritus

Debator Classification: Trollhunter
User avatar
Superman
Pink Foamin' at the Mouth
Posts: 9690
Joined: 2002-12-16 12:29am
Location: Metropolis

Re: Autism Drug Worse Than Placebo, Caused Nightmares

Post by Superman »

Actually, nightmares and vivid dreams are a possible side effect of almost any psychiatric medication.
Image
User avatar
The Duchess of Zeon
Gözde
Posts: 14566
Joined: 2002-09-18 01:06am
Location: Exiled in the Pale of Settlement.

Re: Autism Drug Worse Than Placebo, Caused Nightmares

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

SirNitram wrote:
Morilore wrote:SSRIs are "widely used autism"? When did this happen?
When the snake-oil salesmen and the Pharmacuticals realized that, together, there was an unlimited amount of money to be made by recommending off-label use.
I've also been the victim of off-label prescriptions when I was growing up, which just contributed to god knows what kind of neurological damage, considering it was an off-label prescription of a an anti-seizure medication. Got to make the children better at any cost, you know.
The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. -- Wikipedia's No Original Research policy page.

In 1966 the Soviets find something on the dark side of the Moon. In 2104 they come back. -- Red Banner / White Star, a nBSG continuation story. Updated to Chapter 4.0 -- 14 January 2013.
User avatar
Dave
Jedi Knight
Posts: 901
Joined: 2004-02-06 11:55pm
Location: Kansas City, MO

Re: Autism Drug Worse Than Placebo, Caused Nightmares

Post by Dave »

SirNitram wrote:[...] mixing hyperbaric chambers and O2 therapy in the home[...]
:banghead: What kind of moron would do that? Who are the morons who recommend that?
User avatar
TheMuffinKing
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2368
Joined: 2005-07-04 03:34am
Location: Ultima ratio regum
Contact:

Re: Autism Drug Worse Than Placebo, Caused Nightmares

Post by TheMuffinKing »

Perhaps another method of treating autism needs to be explored. Throwing pharmaceuticals at autism in all its spectrums seems kind of myopic at best and represents an unwillingness to explore the causes of autism itself or to take the time to properly care and manage those afflicted with the worst aspects of this malady. Perhaps in the future, gene therapy may help.
Image
User avatar
SirNitram
Rest in Peace, Black Mage
Posts: 28367
Joined: 2002-07-03 04:48pm
Location: Somewhere between nowhere and everywhere

Re: Autism Drug Worse Than Placebo, Caused Nightmares

Post by SirNitram »

TheMuffinKing wrote:Perhaps another method of treating autism needs to be explored. Throwing pharmaceuticals at autism in all its spectrums seems kind of myopic at best and represents an unwillingness to explore the causes of autism itself or to take the time to properly care and manage those afflicted with the worst aspects of this malady. Perhaps in the future, gene therapy may help.
Many methods are studied seriously by people who actually hold relevent degrees, as opposed to the rest of the charlatans leeching off of parents. A variety of methods exist, and more are being developed, often from the strangest sources, see a recent set of studies to see if the use of characters from Thomas The Tank Engine can help teach children with ASD's how to interact normally.
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.

Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.

Shadowy Overlord - BMs/Black Mage Monkey - BOTM/Jetfire - Cybertron's Finest/General Miscreant/ASVS/Supermoderator Emeritus

Debator Classification: Trollhunter
User avatar
TheMuffinKing
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2368
Joined: 2005-07-04 03:34am
Location: Ultima ratio regum
Contact:

Re: Autism Drug Worse Than Placebo, Caused Nightmares

Post by TheMuffinKing »

SirNitram wrote:
TheMuffinKing wrote:Perhaps another method of treating autism needs to be explored. Throwing pharmaceuticals at autism in all its spectrums seems kind of myopic at best and represents an unwillingness to explore the causes of autism itself or to take the time to properly care and manage those afflicted with the worst aspects of this malady. Perhaps in the future, gene therapy may help.
Many methods are studied seriously by people who actually hold relevent degrees, as opposed to the rest of the charlatans leeching off of parents. A variety of methods exist, and more are being developed, often from the strangest sources, see a recent set of studies to see if the use of characters from Thomas The Tank Engine can help teach children with ASD's how to interact normally.
I had no idea, this is something I'll have to look into further. Thomas The Tank Engine seems like quite a novel approach, I wonder how they came across that. Thanks for bringing this up!
Image
User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28822
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest

Re: Autism Drug Worse Than Placebo, Caused Nightmares

Post by Broomstick »

TheMuffinKing wrote:I had no idea, this is something I'll have to look into further. Thomas The Tank Engine seems like quite a novel approach, I wonder how they came across that. Thanks for bringing this up!
Animated characters frequently use highly exaggerated and/or very consistent expressions, which helps remove the ambiguity from facial expressions. By learning to better recognize expressions in characters using exaggerated and consistent faces it trains the brain and thus enables it to resolve more ambiguous imput. As for why Thomas - it's a popular show.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 30165
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: Autism Drug Worse Than Placebo, Caused Nightmares

Post by Simon_Jester »

I would point out that sometimes, people who do controlled experiments looking at off-label uses of a drug actually manage to strike gold. The catch is that you have to do the experiments, and it sounds like in this case people were prescribing the drug before anyone did a study to measure its effects.

Which is never a good idea, even if sometimes it works or at least does no harm.
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
Post Reply