Doctor Assassinated In Kansas Church

[Elfdart]

The Fetus Christers give less than half a shit about fetuses or babies. For them it's a matter of making sure that women can't escape Jehovah's curse on Eve: As punishment for eating forbidden fruit, childbirth is to be extremely painful. So the Fetus Christer thinks anything that allows women to evade the curse is sacrilege. This isn't just about abortion and birth control. As Katha Pollitt pointed out, in the 19th century fundies didn't want doctors to give painkillers to women during childbirth (including cesareans) because the pain of giving birth is god's holy punishment on women for being evil and unclean.

So all this horseshit about being "pro-life" is just so much concern-trolling.

[Crossroads Inc.]

I know this should belong over in the TERRIBLE POLITICAL CARTOON thread, but it really directly relates to this whole thing... So:

Here we have it, the big tough guy "All Abortions are MURDERS" coming from the far right. The message is really quite clear, hes a murder, and got what was coming to him.

[Surlethe]

Here we have it, the big tough guy "All Abortions are MURDERS" coming from the far right. The message is really quite clear, hes a murder, and got what was coming to him.

At least the cartoonist is honest. The pro-lifers who are decrying his death ought to be praising it.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I can accept sincere Catholics who also oppose the death penalty and any war the Pope opposes, including the Iraq war, as being 100% legitimate in condemning this guy's death, mind you, since, well, their position IS completely consistent. It's the prostestants who support the death penalty who have no real excuse, since if anyone deserved the death penalty, it would be a guy who'd murdered several tens of thousands of people, and if your government legalizes mass murder, then what is the point of those guns you love so much, except to kill mass murderers? The sheer level of hypocrisy and blindness to the consequences of one's own position which are rife in the abortion debate shows what happens when stupid people are allowed to participate in policy discussions, and precious little else.

[Surlethe]

Those Catholics don't have a position beyond "Church doctrine is perfectly, infallibly correct", so the only sense in which they're consistent is that they don't deviate from perfect agreement with official doctrine. The Church's official position itself lacks consistency, although I'll grant that it is more nuanced than your typical Protestant's beliefs. Your point about Protestants, though, I think is pretty much on the mark. One thought: the imperative to praise Tiller's death is a consequence solely of utilitarian concerns and the definition of life as starting at conception. Supporting the death penalty and decrying his murder is only an additional nail in the coffin.

[Alyeska]

So the Pro-Life apologists are already out.

"It was wrong to kill him, but he was a real dick"

"It was wrong to hill him, but I hear he treated his patients horribly"

One in particular had me seething.

Murder or vigilante justice is should not be an option. However, reading on some of the articles of Dr. Tillman's practices, people of all stripes should at least be shocked at the predatory way he came after those women.

Absolute bullshit. They are vilifying the doctor purely to create a justification for his murder.

[Elfdart]

So the Pro-Life apologists are already out.

"It was wrong to kill him, but he was a real dick"

"It was wrong to hill him, but I hear he treated his patients horribly"

One in particular had me seething.

Murder or vigilante justice is should not be an option. However, reading on some of the articles of Dr. Tillman's practices, people of all stripes should at least be shocked at the predatory way he came after those women.

Absolute bullshit. They are vilifying the doctor purely to create a justification for his murder.

They were out as soon as the deed was done.

When you hear someone say "I don't condone the murder of Dr. Tiller, BUT..." then you know that in fact they DO support it. It's like a rape apologist saying "I don't think she deserved to be raped, but she was wearing a short skirt and fuck-me pumps."

I've seen several Fetus Christers likening the shooter to John Brown, which is a bad analogy. Brown's attacks were in retaliation for murders carried out by pro-slavery forces. A more fitting analogy would be if a pro-abortion fanatic were to shoot Bill O'Reilly or Randall Terry to avenge Dr. Tiller.

[Elfdart]

O'Reilly is still referring to Tiller as "Dr Killer".

[Pablo Sanchez]

O'Reilly is still referring to Tiller as "Dr Killer".

Why shouldn't he? At this point in O'Reilly's career it's been repeatedly demonstrated that he'll never suffer real, lasting consequences for anything he does. He not only survived a sexual harassment suit that made it patently obvious that he was a disgusting pervert who preyed on women he was in a position of power over, there wasn't even an interval of shame during which he wasn't allowed to claim the moral high ground on every issue. In a reasonable world, every time he tried to pretend to be a moral authority the other person would just say "Andrea Mackriss" and the argument would be over. But we live on Earth.

In a more general sense I can understand the tactically considerations that go into the "pro-Life" movement's response to Tiller's murder. On the one hand, you can't condone vigilante murder because that gets you pushed to the margins quicker than you can say "Westboro Baptist." On the other hand, the murder taints you whether you condone it or not, since it was a logical extension of the rhetoric you were using. Note that I'm not talking about any kind of slippery slope "if you extend the idea behind medicare all the way out you end up with a Khmer Rouge murder-dictatorship" bullshit sophistry, I'm talking about directly. Step One: Tiller is killing tons of babies, Step Two: the law can't or won't do anything about it, Step Three: we have to take matters into our own hands, first by protesting, and then by _____. Fill in the blank, but we know what Roeder decided on. They really said all of this, and it's in the public domain--nobody can be prosecuted because they fell short of direct incitement, but you can't say that the propaganda isn't the basic cause. Roeder was a nutbar, sure, and maybe he was headed for a last stand anyway, but he didn't get in a shootout with the Highway Patrol over his license plates or with the ATF over his guns. He chose to shoot a doctor who had been targeted by extensive propaganda.

So if you wrote and published that propaganda, you can't retreat now, because that's showing the wolf your back. You could end up seeing other states pass "Tiller Laws," reducing your ability to interfere with clinics or, even worse, loosening the late-term abortion regulations in more states so that instead of having three two doctors in Kansas to harass and tacitly incite violence against, you've got to worry about getting organizations on the ground in several other states. So you keep on the ball, and say that while you deplore murders Tiller probably deserved it. That way you keep your hand in and have some influence on the narrative.

Anyway, I've been following this story quite a bit on the internet and I just keep getting pissed off by the people who say that they support abortion rights but deplore what Tiller was doing with late term abortions. FFS, do you think any woman lets a pregnancy get into the third trimester and then decides to terminate without a really good reason? Moreover the idea that abortion isn't immoral at 23 weeks but is at 24 is ludicrous. There are just a few discrete points at which you can draw the line--conception (if you're a retard), the viability threshold (the point at which the baby can survive outside the womb, to which I subscribe with some provisos), and birth (which everybody agrees with except pro-lifers, who really want to see the increases in infanticide that would inevitably follow a total abortion ban). I also read a comment some doctor made to Andrew Sullivan's Daily Dish, where he said that he deplored what Tiller was doing because a lot of the babies he was aborting because they had crippling heart conditions could have been saved, and he cited the fact that for one specific condition the babies would have had about a 50% chance of surviving the three open-heart surgeries that would immediately follow their birth.

But of course he didn't say word one about their quality of life or long-term survival prospects, because that's not what he wanted to talk about, and because it would have undermined his argument to admit that these infants commonly suffer severe brain damage and live quite short lives mainly spent in hospital, even if they make the fucking coin-flip. Because parents can't be allowed to make the choice to let their child go peacefully and without pain, they need to be forced to let their child's life be nasty, brutish, and short. And in every state but Kansas, in every doctor's office but Tiller's and two others, that was the case.

For me that's what this is about, start to finish. George Tiller risked everything and paid the ultimate price because he was willing to help women who had no place else to go. Bill O'Reilly accused Tiller of doing this for money, but that's just ludicrous. Sit somebody down and tell them, "I have a job offer; if you take the job you'll help women who are at the end of their rope and earn enough to be solidly middle class, but millions of religious fanatics will know your name, hate you, and want you to die, and some of them will directly attempt to murder you." Who the fuck would take that job? Nobody, except somebody who had tremendous balls and really wanted to help women.

[Elfdart]

This site has a cached list from Tiller's website about the kinds of illnesses for which he was willing to do late-term abortions. Booman Tribune was also nice enough to provide links describing just what those conditions are. So the idea that Tiller was aborting healthy fetuses for bogus reasons is a steaming pile.

I'm also calling bullshit on the claim that Tiller aborted 60,000 fetuses, as Fox News and the Moonies claim. Sixty thousand divided by thirty-five years, divided by three hundred sixty-five days (60000 /35 /365 = just under 4.7). So Tiller supposedly did almost five abortions a day, every day, for thirty-five years?

[Adrian Laguna]

Moreover the idea that abortion isn't immoral at 23 weeks but is at 24 is ludicrous. There are just a few discrete points at which you can draw the line--conception (if you're a retard), the viability threshold (the point at which the baby can survive outside the womb, to which I subscribe with some provisos), and birth (which everybody agrees with except pro-lifers, who really want to see the increases in infanticide that would inevitably follow a total abortion ban).

You forgot one: the appearance of higher brain functions, which happens at 21 or 22 weeks. I think that's the the best and most consistent threshold. Viability is really only a function of medical technology, at some point even the zygote will be viable. I think viability only comes into play once the higher brain function threshold has been passed. Babies that will have short unpleasant lives, like with the heart condition you described, are abortable, but healthy one are not.

[JCady]

The anti-abortion movement doesn't want to reduce the practical need for abortions because its real goal is to make sure that single mothers desperately need an abortion that they can't get. The idea is that if they deserve to suffer for their sexual immorality, and it's really for their own good anyway because if they are made to suffer horribly enough, they will eventually be forced to turn to religion for relief.

[Patrick Degan]

I've seen several Fetus Christers likening the shooter to John Brown, which is a bad analogy. Brown's attacks were in retaliation for murders carried out by pro-slavery forces. A more fitting analogy would be if a pro-abortion fanatic were to shoot Bill O'Reilly or Randall Terry to avenge Dr. Tiller.

They are probably drawing their parallels to Brown's more infamous Harpers Ferry coup attempt rather than the lesser-known Pottawattamie Creek massacre.

[Elfdart]

I've seen several Fetus Christers likening the shooter to John Brown, which is a bad analogy. Brown's attacks were in retaliation for murders carried out by pro-slavery forces. A more fitting analogy would be if a pro-abortion fanatic were to shoot Bill O'Reilly or Randall Terry to avenge Dr. Tiller.

They are probably drawing their parallels to Brown's more infamous Harpers Ferry coup attempt rather than the lesser-known Pottawattamie Creek massacre.

Maybe so, but armed insurrection is well beyond what this group of retards is capable of doing. Their best ploy is shooting unarmed doctors, though it would be hilarious if they tried to seize a National Guard armory and set up an independent country called Fetustan.

[Samuel]

I've seen several Fetus Christers likening the shooter to John Brown, which is a bad analogy. Brown's attacks were in retaliation for murders carried out by pro-slavery forces. A more fitting analogy would be if a pro-abortion fanatic were to shoot Bill O'Reilly or Randall Terry to avenge Dr. Tiller.

They are probably drawing their parallels to Brown's more infamous Harpers Ferry coup attempt rather than the lesser-known Pottawattamie Creek massacre.

Maybe so, but armed insurrection is well beyond what this group of retards is capable of doing. Their best ploy is shooting unarmed doctors, though it would be hilarious if they tried to seize a National Guard armory and set up an independent country called Fetustan.

This isn't 1859 though- the guard would just shell them until they all die. Of course, the actual attempt both failed and managed to kill a free black man, so it is a really shitty example. Brown was the equivalent of the militia guys now- there was no conceivable way he could have pulled his plan off.

[SirNitram]

The man arrested and charged, is apparently shocked that when you have a history of bomb components, violating the FACE act, making threats, and are then arrested for premeditated murder, you get treated like a CRIMINAL! Link

WICHITA, Kan. - The man accused of shooting a Kansas abortion provider to death as he handed out programs at a Sunday church service said he appreciates the prayers said for him and his family in the wake of his arrest.

"I haven't been convicted of anything, and I am being treated as a criminal," Scott Roeder said Thursday. He called The Associated Press from the Sedgwick County Jail in response to a written request for an interview.

The 51-year-old Kansas City, Mo., man was charged Tuesday with first-degree murder for allegedly killing Tiller with a single gunshot while the doctor served as usher at the Lutheran church he attended in Wichita. Roeder also is accused of assaulting two witnesses before leaving the church and driving away. He was arrested a few hours later.

When asked by the AP to discuss the Tiller shooting, Roeder refused to comment, saying he would talk about that later.

In the three-minute telephone conversation, he also disputed what he called "broad brush" characterizations of him as being anti-government.

"I want people to stop and think: It is not anti-government; it is anti-corrupt government," Roeder said.

He said he was concerned about how the media attention was affecting his family, particularly his elderly mother.

"I appreciate your prayers," said Roeder, who has a preliminary court hearing scheduled for June 16. District Judge Warren Wilbert set Roeder's bond on Thursday at $5 million, reversing an earlier ruling to deny bond.

Dan Monnat, the Tiller family attorney, declined to comment on Roeder's statements.

If convicted on the murder charge, Roeder would face a mandatory life sentence and would not be eligible for parole for at least 25 years.

Yea, sure. Anti-government corruption. That explains your illegal liscense plate, bomb bits, and shooting a doctor in a church. Suuuuure.

[The Yosemite Bear]

I have just heard that they are planning a "The Pill Kills" protest for the Dr.'s Funeral. Can't these people understand what a late term potentially fatal complication means?

My mom nearly died twice from miscarriages.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I have just heard that they are planning a "The Pill Kills" protest for the Dr.'s Funeral. Can't these people understand what a late term potentially fatal complication means?

My mom nearly died twice from miscarriages.

It is the Punishment handed down by GOD upon the daughters of Eve, the first sinner, that since she hath defied the LORD her GOD that all her daughters should suffer the PAIN OF CHILDBIRTH. And if that pain be unto death, then let it be said: DEUS VULT! DEUS VULT! DEUS VULT!

That pretty sums up the opinion of these people regarding any kind of attempt at even the most basic of women's reproductive health which is accepted without complaint in such comparatively advanced countries as, oh, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, and Afghanistan, seeing as the Quran permits first-trimester abortion.

[Plekhanov]

Roeder has boasted that that more acts of 'pro-life' terrorism are planned, I eagerly await all the demands from conservatives that he be tortured into telling by whom, when and where. After all if it's ok to waterboard suspected Islamist terrorists then it must be ok in this case as well right?

Suspect in Kan. doctor's death warns of violence

By ROXANA HEGEMAN, Associated Press Writer Roxana Hegeman, Associated Press Writer – Sun Jun 7, 3:18 pm ET

WICHITA, Kan. – The man charged with killing abortion provider Dr. George Tiller claimed Sunday that more violence is possible while the medical procedure is allowed to continue, giving his warning in calls that also focused on complaints about his treatment in jail.

Scott Roeder, being held on charges of first-degree murder and aggravated assault in Tiller's killing one week ago, called The Associated Press from the Sedgwick County jail.

Tiller, whose Wichita clinic was among only a few in the U.S. performing third-trimester abortions, was shot while serving as an usher at the Lutheran church he attended.

"I know there are many other similar events planned around the country as long as abortion remains legal," Roeder said.

He would not elaborate.

Tiller's clinic in Wichita had been a target of regular demonstrations by abortion opponents. Most were peaceful, but his clinic was bombed in 1986 and he was shot in both arms in 1993. In 1991, a 45-day "Summer of Mercy" campaign organized by Operation Rescue drew thousands of abortion opponents to Wichita, and there were more than 2,700 arrests.

Jim Cross, a spokesman for the U.S. attorney's office, did not have an immediate comment Sunday on Roeder's statement.

The Justice Department opened an investigation Friday to see if the gunman who killed Tiller had accomplices. The DOJ said its Civil Rights Division and the U.S. attorney's office in Kansas will seek to determine if the killing violated a 1994 law creating criminal penalties for violent or damaging conduct toward abortion providers and their patients.

An attorney for the Tiller family, Dan Monnat, said he wasn't sure they should be dignifying Roeder's actions and threats with a response "every time he makes a hare-brained phone call."

"I am hopeful that state and federal authorities, including homeland security, will give Mr. Roeder and his information a deserving response," Monnat said, declining to elaborate.

A funeral was held Saturday for Tiller. Most anti-abortion groups avoided the service, having denounced Tiller's shooting.

Roeder, a 51-year-old abortion opponent, was arrested a few hours after the shooting just outside Kansas City.

He told the AP he refused to talk to investigators when he was arrested, and has made no statements to police since then.

"I just told them I needed to talk to my lawyer," Roeder said.

Asked if he shot Tiller, Roeder replied that he could not comment about that and said he needed to clear everything with his lawyer.

In two separate calls to AP on Sunday morning, Roeder was far more talkative about his treatment at the Sedgwick County jail, complaining about "deplorable conditions in solitary" where he was kept during his first three days there.

Roeder said it was freezing in his cell. "I started having a bad cough. I thought I was going to have pneumonia," he said.

He said he called AP because he wanted to emphasize the conditions in the jail so that in the future suspects would not have to endure the same conditions.

Roeder also said also wanted the public to know he has been denied phone privileges for the past two days, and needed his sleep apnea machine

[SirNitram]

I have just heard that they are planning a "The Pill Kills" protest for the Dr.'s Funeral. Can't these people understand what a late term potentially fatal complication means?

My mom nearly died twice from miscarriages.

No, they can't. They think things which prevent a sperm from uniting with an egg is murder, hence, the pill kills.

[The Yosemite Bear]

I also still remember when those Operation Rescue assholes used to harrass an Oncologist, for doing Pap smears, and mamograms.

[Paradox_Fanatic]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8093066.stm

The clinic where an American doctor carried out late-term abortions before he was murdered will close permanently, his relatives say.

Dr George Tiller's clinic, in Wichita, Kansas, was one of only a few to offer such late abortions in the US.

His family said they were proud of the "service and courage" shown by Dr Tiller, who was shot dead on 31 May while serving as a church usher.

Scott Roeder, 51, has been charged with shooting dead Dr Tiller.

He had attended services at Dr Tiller's church two months before the attack.

The physician had been a regular target of anti-abortion activists and he had survived an attempt on his life in 1993.

Action pending

The motive for his killing is not clear. Hundreds of mourners attended his funeral.

"We are proud of the service and courage shown by our husband and father and know that women's health care needs have been met because of his dedication and service," the Tiller family said in a statement.

The statement added that relatives were "ceasing operation of the clinic and any involvement by family members in any other similar clinic".

Dr Tiller's Women's Health Care Services clinic, which offered abortions to women in the third trimester of their pregnancies, had often been the site of anti-abortion demonstrations.

Kansas state law allows abortions after the 21st week only if continuing the pregnancy would endanger the mother's life or health.

Anti-abortionists groups, who have condemned the killing, said a petition to the state's medical board, if successful, would have revoked Dr Tiller's medical licence within the next two months.

They alleged he had violated a state law that required him to obtain a second opinion from an independent physician.

Following Dr Tiller's murder, US Attorney General Eric Holder pledged protection for "appropriate people and facilities".

And there it goes. I'm betting the petition wouldn't have gone anywhere either.

[Samuel]

Violence does work

Too bad. I can just imagine what they are thinking "just two left to go".

[Lord of the Abyss]

Violence does work

Too bad. I can just imagine what they are thinking "just two left to go".

A Nebraska doctor says he'll provide third trimester abortions in Kansas.

[Elfdart]

Wanna see Falafel Boy come unglued? But first, a little background. Joan Walsh called O'Reilly "vile" on MSNBC for smearing George Tiller over and over before and after he was murdered, but she said that the real responsibility for the murder was on the wacko who did it.

Falafel Boy, being thin-skinned and stupid (and not realizing that Walsh was actually sticking up for him when other liberals such as Keith Olbermann have said that O'Reilly is in fact culpable) invited her on the show to what he always does: lie and either shout down the other person so they can't respond, or cut the mike. Clearly, Joan Walsh was the ideal kind of liberal for this kind of carnival act, since she's far too well-mannered and dignified to be anything other than a punching bag for this asshole. That is, until the last 90 seconds when Walsh had heard enough of O'Reilly's bullshit and...



Just watch for yourself!