[WH40K] What should make it into the new army books?

[Ryan Thunder]

A quick look at the new Space Marine and Imperial Guard army books shows us the direction Games Workshop wants to go with 5th edition, and I think I'm liking it so far.

I collect Tau models, for the most part. I'd like to see some new options when the new codex comes around. Not that they don't really have enough already, but their list seems rather dry held next to the new Imperial Guard codex. I'd also like to see some of those options reflect their changing technology, and their attempts to adapt to the military problems they face. For example, they might supplement their ranks with cheaper drones armed with reverse-engineered lasguns, or they might develop a new battlesuit type in response to what happened in Kill Team. Whatever makes sense, so long as there's something more than lip-service paid to Aun'Shi's adaptation quote.

What new/old stuff from 40K fluff do you want to see in the new codex books?

[white_rabbit]

For example, they might supplement their ranks with cheaper drones armed with reverse-engineered lasguns,

From a tabletop perspective, why would they do that ?

or they might develop a new battlesuit type in response to what happened in Kill Team.

I'm pretty sure that wasn't the first time some Tau battlesuits had gotten fucked up by a space marine. I think Mr Deathwatchers day would have been spoilt if the Battlesuits had been geared up for anti-armour work with plasma guns etc, and he'd still decided to jump out and ambush them like that.

Following the trend of the Imperial Guard codex, I'm betting on a new Hammerhead and/or devilfish kit with options for different equipment ripped from the Forgeworld stuff, probably a new battlesuit, and probably plastic versions of the various new drones like the shield, heavy, markerlight etc etc

[loomer]

What should make it into the new army books? At the moment, absolutely nothing. We got 4th ed all of a couple of years ago and it was honestly pretty polished. Those couple of years haven't caused enough change to justify a new set of rule books or codexes.

5th ed is pretty much just an attempt to milk the fanbase. While the new lore is interesting, there are other places for that. The Black Library, sourcebooks, even White Dwarf.

[Ryan Thunder]

What should make it into the new army books? At the moment, absolutely nothing. We got 4th ed all of a couple of years ago and it was honestly pretty polished. Those couple of years haven't caused enough change to justify a new set of rule books or codexes.

Actually, the new vehicle rules pretty much neutered the Tau and necessitate a rebalancing for skimmers in general. Vehicles are too expensive for what they do, among other things. With defensive weapon rules only applying to weapons under strength 5, I have to choose between attacking with the main gun and choosing one of my piddly little burst cannons. Yeah, those ones that the far smaller and less stable "Stealth" battlesuits can run and gun with.

Besides that, the newest codices clearly have a different balance than the older ones. There's simply no comparison between the two in terms of both variety of the units avaliable and sheer power that they bring to the table.

[Raxmei]

Actually, the new vehicle rules pretty much neutered the Tau and necessitate a rebalancing for skimmers in general. Vehicles are too expensive for what they do, among other things. With defensive weapon rules only applying to weapons under strength 5, I have to choose between attacking with the main gun and choosing one of my piddly little burst cannons. Yeah, those ones that the far smaller and less stable "Stealth" battlesuits can run and gun with.

Besides that, the newest codices clearly have a different balance than the older ones. There's simply no comparison between the two in terms of both variety of the units avaliable and sheer power that they bring to the table.

Are you sure you're posting in the right forum? By my understanding OSF is only interested in 40k as a setting. In fact I think there was a thread in here a little ways back about what direction people would like the setting to advance. Rules and balance and the Table are more of a G&C thing.

FWIW, you can still stand still and shoot everything, or take that ten point upgrade that lets you shoot like a fast vehicle and shoot everything after moving 6".

[Bedlam]

I'd like an Adaptus Mechanicus codex myself. We almost got one for 3rd ed and some of the stuff seemed interesting electro priests and such. There's been a few resonable novels with the mechanicus in them recently so we can start fielding some of the stuff from them, also I think Knights would look good.

[Serafina]

Well, rumor has it that we will see a new Necron codex around the end of the year.

Necrons need two things: Some rule changes, and new units.

First, they should throw out the "living metal" special rule and replace it with a 4+ or 3+ invulnerable save. Right now, Monoliths are too strong against certain weapons, being nearly invulnerable, but not the least bit thougher than a landraider against others.
Second, ill be back needs to be clarified (a lot!)
It would be neat if gauss weapons would be rending - that would increase necron firepower a lot, and be equally strong against nearly everything.

They also need new units. Additional HQ-choices would be a good idea: Weaker Necronlords with various specialisations (those are already mentioned in the rulebook). Instead of having a shitload of equipment options for a single necronlord, specialised ones would be a more elegant solution.
Necron warriors should remain the only standard choice. However, i would like to see an option to give them "slow and steady" as an upgrade - it just fits my image of slowly advancing necrons.

Necrons need SOMETHING with a long range - currently, their longest range is 36 inches - shorter than a lascannon!
For this, i have two ideas: Either an new necron vehicle with a single, multi-setting weapon, or simply a new breed of necrons with a similar image as terminators (extremly tough etc.)

Oh, and C'tan need to be thrown out of the army list. Seriously, they are the most powerfull beings in the 40K universe, way above normal warriors. Just give them an apocalypse profile, or possibly declare the currently existing models to be "shadows" or "aspects" of them.

Btw, i do not play Necros - i just love their background.

[open_sketchbook]

Personally, I think the Necrons should be kept short ranged, just fucking beef them up. Range 18" S6 AP4 Rending Assault2 gauss guns, Feel No Pain, high stats whatever, then make them absolutely awful in close combat, like, tau awful. Now you've got an army that has to carefully set up it's advance and maximize the effectiveness of 1 or 2 shooting phases so the young races don't get to them and rip them to pieces, yet they must balance this with a rather short range. I think it'd be interesting but as a disclaimer I don't play 'crons myself.

[Raxmei]

Agreed with most of what Oberst Thanow said about Necrons. The Gauss rule has not aged well and Living Metal and We'll Be Back are confusing heaps of crap. GW has hinted at reducing the influence of the C'tan in the main army in favor of more personable Lords. I don't like the idea of putting Rending on most every gun in the army, but it fits. I figure Living Metal can be replaced with a 4+ invulnerable now that we have precedent for vehicles getting saving throws, and WBB can more or less be replaced with Feel No Pain. I figured all the short ranged weapons were part of the army's theme. Another Troops unit would be nice too.

Agreed that I'd like to see a Mechanicus codex. They're a huge part of the setting and are known to field their own armies. I'd also like to see Lost and the Damned given a full codex. It'd be nice if they could consolidate some of the Space Marine codexes, but that apparently is not realistic.

A lot of Tau players are complaining that their codex isn't powerful enough anymore. Damned if I know how to fix it. Heaps of shiny new shit is starting to feel so trite.

Dark Eldar are rumored to be getting an update soon. They sure could use one. Preferably with a fluff revision to incorporate them more solidly into the setting and establish that they are in fact a serious faction.

Tyranids can now easily be outnumbered by Imperial Guard. The gaunt genus seems to need a boost. Tyranids are pretty well fleshed out already, it's mostly a matter of rebalancing existing units. Maybe include a few new things for fun, like that new Lictor from the Medusa V campaign.

[Ford Prefect]

I want Rogue Trader Thunder Hammers back.

EDIT:

Preferably with a fluff revision to incorporate them more solidly into the setting and establish that they are in fact a serious faction.

Absolutely not. The fact that the Dark Eldar are explicitly not a threat is unique to the setting.

[Peptuck]

We need official rules for Ciaphas Cain, HERO OF THE IMPERIUM!.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

The 5th Edition codices must die for their heretical impurities.

The lore and rule updates are great for those who really needed it (Orks, Guard), but there is this huge change to both the fundamental basics of putting together an army and their upgrades, as well as the layout of the rule sections that is absolutely godawful. It's a classic case of fixing what ain't broke: the 4th editions were damn near perfect in terms of layout and the familiar army construction.

Now, there is no armory or wargear... you just buy everything as little specific upgrades, which are a huge pain in the ass to puzzle out and figure out what's where and how it all gets put together. It also has the severe problem of not only invalidating a lot of old models which used to be perfectly legal (*cough SPACE MARINES cough*), but also causes a lot of inconsistencies. Veteran Sergeant Bob may be legal as a squad leader of Squad A, but not as a leader of Squad B because of the overly-restrictive upgrade options and no armory access. This is particularly a problem with Ork Nobs, I've noticed.

In short: 5th Edition codices must die in a fire.

[Juubi Karakuchi]

Did anyone spot what found its way into the new Imperial Guard Codex? It begins with D, and seems a little out of scale.

[Falkenhayn]

The Deathstrike Missile? Yeah it's out of scale, and compared to the rest of the IG codex, as worthless as Stormtroopers, Ogryns, or Vasili Baggins/Bilbo Berringer/whatever. Yeah I hate Ratlings.

[Lord Relvenous]

Ogryns are actually much better than they were. T6 with 3 wounds is nothing to scoff at.

The Deathstrike is a complete and total waste of points, OTOH.

[Falkenhayn]

Ogryns are actually much better than they were. T6 with 3 wounds is nothing to scoff at.

The Deathstrike is a complete and total waste of points, OTOH.

Call me jaded, then. The staples of the new Guard Codex around here are tanks, vets, Vendys/Vultures, Chimeras and Psyker Battle Squads. Or scads of infantry on Bring It Down! orders. With no way for CC squads to move from combat to combat without having to endure a round of shooting, most Guard I run into don't bother with a counter-charge.

The "Everything gets an awesome cover save" bussiness that is 5th Ed needs to die as well. I started off playing Fantasy, and I still don't know what's keeping 40k from adopting To-Hit modifiers. It's also one of the structural forces behind the creation of "Hard Guard" lists, but that's another story.

[Ryan Thunder]

Yeah, the ruleset is pretty stupid. They know full well that there's naught but a single weapon in the entire Tau armoury that is under Strength 5, and they still went ahead and lowered the bar for defensive weapons down to 4. Then they went and changed the rules for moving and shooting such that they actually render one of my most notorious upgrades (vehicle Multi-tracker) next to useless and another ubiquitous upgrade (vehicle Target Lock) totally useless. Then they added ramming rules that don't seem to take into account the fact that a skimmer can, you know, fly to avoid an oncoming vehicle (they ignore terrain altogether, remember, regardless of its height) and again failed to make it possible for a Falcon grav tank buzzing in at 300 km/h to simply splatter any infantry that happen to get in its way.

But then again, this is the game where a close range firefight involving 3+ megawatt shoulder-fired lasers is only as deadly as a bayonet charge. XD

[...] Now, there is no armory or wargear... you just buy everything as little specific upgrades, which are a huge pain in the ass to puzzle out and figure out what's where and how it all gets put together. [...]

What? It's right there in front of you, spelled out in plain English. What more could you want? The only thing I don't like is how they put the descriptions for everything all over the book instead of putting them all together in one place.

[Raxmei]

Point about the clamped down wargear. Quite a few people are pissed about the new IG codex removing the option of lasgun armed sergeants. That particular change didn't affect me, but the change of the Rough Riders options did. I also had to do a little rebasing to account for heavy weapons teams becoming single models, and I know I'm not the only one.

We also got a bunch of brand new ancient tank designs. Just pretend they've been around all along.

Then they added ramming rules that don't seem to take into account the fact that a skimmer can, you know, fly to avoid an oncoming vehicle (they ignore terrain altogether, remember, regardless of its height)

The rules for ramming do take into account that skimmers can get out of the way. Don't forget that skimmers don't actually fly and do spend much of their time close to the ground as indicated in the rules for skimmers taking dangerous terrain tests.

Then they went and changed the rules for moving and shooting such that they actually render one of my most notorious upgrades (vehicle Multi-tracker) next to useless and another ubiquitous upgrade (vehicle Target Lock) totally useless.

Do you compulsively move everything 12" a turn?

[Lord Relvenous]

Ogryns are actually much better than they were. T6 with 3 wounds is nothing to scoff at.

The Deathstrike is a complete and total waste of points, OTOH.

Call me jaded, then. The staples of the new Guard Codex around here are tanks, vets, Vendys/Vultures, Chimeras and Psyker Battle Squads. Or scads of infantry on Bring It Down! orders. With no way for CC squads to move from combat to combat without having to endure a round of shooting, most Guard I run into don't bother with a counter-charge.

Ogryns will actually kill shooty terminator squads. I'll have to look for the mathhammer, but 5 Ogryns will kill 5 PF+SB terminators. That's good enough for me.

Oh, and Ogryns are T5, not 6. Here's the Mathhammer for the Terminators (this is actually TH+SB terminators, but the effects of the weapon is the same.)

5 Terminators, SS/TH @200
5 Ogryns @210

If the Ogryns get the charge, they get a kill from their shooting, and get another kill and a half from their combat attacks. The 2.5 Terminators remaining (Not rounding here, for simplicities sake) get 5 attacks back, hitting with 2.5, scoring 2 wounds.

That's not even an Ogryn down.

Next round, another Terminator dies, and they take down their first Ogryn. 1 and a half Terminators left, killed over the next couple of turns, without any more losses for the Ogryns, just wounds.

If they've got lightning claws, it goes slightly differently. They strike first, for one thing, and have more attacks per model for another.

TH/SS Termie has 2 attacks, causing about 1 wound per turn. LC termies cause the same number of wounds, but at a higher Init.

Later, he does the same thing with 30 Boyz+Nob.

30 Orks, Nob with Power Klaw @215
5 Ogryns, Bone'ead @210

If the Ogryns get the charge they get 4 shooting kills, and then hit for 7 kills. The Orks attacking back get 3 wounds (1 Ogryn dead) and the KlawNob gets another wound. That's another 3 Orks dead from No Retreat!, leaving it as 16 Orks left, versus 4 Ogryns. I've not got time to run more at the moment. Will be back soon

(And remember, if they're in a Trukk, the Ogryns can be in a Chimera, so it balances. Particularly since the Chimera can happily gun down a Trukk )

While he does not finish it, I think it's obvious that the Ogryns would get the best of that fight, too.

While the units you stated are the staples, I like to see lists that try to do something new and different from the norm.

[Raxmei]

I really do think that Tau have fallen behind in terms of power. They were last updated shortly before everyone started getting their prices slashed and with the notable exception of disruption pods they have mostly gotten worse with the edition change. That and some really horribly written rules makes a new codex desireable. A bit like the Necrons in a way. I was only responding harshly to Ryan because I found his commentary excessively shrill and whiny.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

What? It's right there in front of you, spelled out in plain English. What more could you want? The only thing I don't like is how they put the descriptions for everything all over the book instead of putting them all together in one place.

...a 4th Edition-style codex? The kind of ones we've had and have worked perfectly well for 2 and a half editions?

You have to constantly flip back and forth between the description entries and the army list entries to figure out special rules and what goes where, but not all the special rules (those are elsewhere in the codex!). And like I said, there is no armory access, which was pretty logical and straightforward. By your own admission, the layout is stupid. QED.

I wasn't going to mention the sergeant/lasgun thing because I was hoping no one would notice it and I'd just merrily keep fielding my many lasgunning sergeants with none the wiser. But since it's out in the open... it fucking enrages me. I vastly prefer a more "practical" styled IG force - no Ratlings, RRs, Ogryns, etc - and that means sergeants with lasguns.

[Ryan Thunder]

Point about the clamped down wargear. Quite a few people are pissed about the new IG codex removing the option of lasgun armed sergeants.

I hadn't noticed that until you pointed it out. That is pretty dumb...

That particular change didn't affect me, but the change of the Rough Riders options did. I also had to do a little rebasing to account for heavy weapons teams becoming single models, and I know I'm not the only one.

I thought they were always modeled like that.

We also got a bunch of brand new ancient tank designs. Just pretend they've been around all along.

I was under the impression that you technically weren't allowed to use them before.

Then they added ramming rules that don't seem to take into account the fact that a skimmer can, you know, fly to avoid an oncoming vehicle (they ignore terrain altogether, remember, regardless of its height)

The rules for ramming do take into account that skimmers can get out of the way. Don't forget that skimmers don't actually fly and do spend much of their time close to the ground as indicated in the rules for skimmers taking dangerous terrain tests.

Then they went and changed the rules for moving and shooting such that they actually render one of my most notorious upgrades (vehicle Multi-tracker) next to useless and another ubiquitous upgrade (vehicle Target Lock) totally useless.

Do you compulsively move everything 12" a turn?

7-12, unless it made sense to move them more slowly. That was because doing so reduced any penetrating hits scored against my tank to glancing hits. The new rules did away with that, and now I have to be moving at cruising speed for the "moving fast" rule to kick in, and even then I just get a lousy cover save. That's not to say that this is a bad system, but its a far cry from what I had.

Now, that would be fine, except that with the new defensive weapons rules I can only fire a single weapon while moving, regardless of how I kit out my Hammerhead. This would also be fine, except that a single burst cannon is simply not worth spending an entire turn of shooting on. Hell, the only reason I used them at all was because I could use them to let off six shots a turn at anything that got too close, while still raising hell with the railgun.

I was only responding harshly to Ryan because I found his commentary excessively shrill and whiny.

Really?

Well, fair enough, I guess.

[loomer]

There's no 'here is what you may use. Here is what you may not use.' rule in 40K, Ryan, unless you're doing tournament play. It's based around having fun, and if that means letting players work out a stat conversion so they can use their Fantasy Elves, then they don't care about that.

The rules provided are honestly just there to streamline the process of playing and setting up by providing a solid framework. They only become binding for, again, tournament use.

[Raxmei]

7-12, unless it made sense to move them more slowly. That was because doing so reduced any penetrating hits scored against my tank to glancing hits. The new rules did away with that, and now I have to be moving at cruising speed for the "moving fast" rule to kick in, and even then I just get a lousy cover save. That's not to say that this is a bad system, but its a far cry from what I had.

You actually have to be moving flat out (more than 12", only possible with fast vehicles) to invoke skimmers moving fast in this edition. Tau skimmers can't benefit at all because they can't move flat out. Anyone trying to use the skimmers moving fast save has to forsake all shooting because nobody can shoot while moving flat out. The Eldar got nerfbatted with this too, though arguably their codex was designed with 5th ed rules in mind - that's why mech Eldar were so overpowered before, they were written with the knowledge that their skimmers were about to get nerfed.

[Serafina]

Personally, I think the Necrons should be kept short ranged, just fucking beef them up. Range 18" S6 AP4 Rending Assault2 gauss guns, Feel No Pain, high stats whatever, then make them absolutely awful in close combat, like, tau awful. Now you've got an army that has to carefully set up it's advance and maximize the effectiveness of 1 or 2 shooting phases so the young races don't get to them and rip them to pieces, yet they must balance this with a rather short range. I think it'd be interesting but as a disclaimer I don't play 'crons myself.

You want THAT for standard troops? And how do you want to make Necrons that bad in close combat if they are supposed to be though? Besides, Tau are not that bad in close combat - they are equal to Imperial Guard against most enemies, AND have better armor.
Just keep Necron warriors as they are, and give them (optional) "slow and steady" - then they can advance and shoot, but will be a bit slower. It even makes sense fluff-wise, some necrons have better reactions than others and vice-versa.

Besides, Feel no pain, while looking SIMILAR to well be back (an additional 4+ ward save), it works quite differently.
You take an "Feel no pain" save before you die, which is quite important for moral reasons both in ranged and close combat, "well be back" works AFTER you died, which wont prevent you squad from running.
"Well be back" should work like this: Against everything that is not an energy weapon, DS 1 or 2 or Strenght=2xT (same as feel no pain), you can come back at the end of the turn (whether its your or the enemies turn) on a 4+. No joining other squads, no need to be within 6'' of an equak unit. Et voila, a nice, simple, but still slightly different rule.

The 5th Edition codices must die for their heretical impurities.

The lore and rule updates are great for those who really needed it (Orks, Guard), but there is this huge change to both the fundamental basics of putting together an army and their upgrades, as well as the layout of the rule sections that is absolutely godawful. It's a classic case of fixing what ain't broke: the 4th editions were damn near perfect in terms of layout and the familiar army construction.

Now, there is no armory or wargear... you just buy everything as little specific upgrades, which are a huge pain in the ass to puzzle out and figure out what's where and how it all gets put together. It also has the severe problem of not only invalidating a lot of old models which used to be perfectly legal (*cough SPACE MARINES cough*), but also causes a lot of inconsistencies. Veteran Sergeant Bob may be legal as a squad leader of Squad A, but not as a leader of Squad B because of the overly-restrictive upgrade options and no armory access. This is particularly a problem with Ork Nobs, I've noticed.

In short: 5th Edition codices must die in a fire.

5th Edition codices are fine. Its not that hard to memorise special rules, most of them are quite simple. And its WAY better than looking into the armory all the time. Besides, its easier to have different point costs for the same equipment for different models now (which is not unimportant).
And EVERY new Codex EVER invalidated some things. And its not really that inconsistient if two models in two different squads can not have the same equipment - they fullfill different roles, after all.