Puddle jumper versus Death Star

[Asthma Phantom]

A friend of mine suggested this on another thread, and I seriously can't find anything wrong with it. Basically a puddle jumper can destroy the first Death Star ten times out of ten with complete ease.

Let's say that at the climax of episode IV, Death Star jumps out of hyperspace to the Yavin system, and rather than squadrons of X and Y wings, it is attacked by a single puddle jumper. The pilot is fairly proficient and is informed on the rebel plans on how to destroy the Death Star.

Puddle jumpers are equipped with cloaking devices which the imperials to my knowledge cannot penetrate, are small enough to enter and fly through the trench, and possess drone weapons which are superior in maneuverability to proton torpedoes (again, to my knowledge, which is admittedly sketchy in that regard).

A jumper would cloak immediately after take off, simply fly up to the death star, enter the trench, hover above the exhaust port and launch drones inside. Then it gets out of there as the Death Star blows with the empire none the wiser.

The biggest problem I have with this is I don't think we have ever seen a puddle jumper fire while cloaked, but this would probably not interfere with destroying the station too much, just impeding its own escape.
I am also not sure if the empire has any way of detecting a cloaked ship, though I have never seen them do so before.

Are there any flaws in the scenario? Your thoughts?

[Ghost Rider]

Flaws? How about putting something concrete then your assumptions.

[Samuel]

Puddle jumpers are equipped with cloaking devices which the imperials to my knowledge cannot penetrate, are small enough to enter and fly through the trench, and possess drone weapons which are superior in maneuverability to proton torpedoes (again, to my knowledge, which is admittedly sketchy in that regard).

It doesn't need to go through the trench- the rebels did that to avoid weapons fire. Also, maneuverability isn't the problem- jamming is. How are the drone weapons supposed to hit the target?

I am also not sure if the empire has any way of detecting a cloaked ship, though I have never seen them do so before.

Cloaked ships are rare- one of the reasons being that ships that are cloaked can't see the rest of the universe. They do have ways of detecting them though and I doubt they would forget to fit the Death Star with one of those.

[Starglider]

Puddle jumpers are equipped with cloaking devices which the imperials to my knowledge cannot penetrate

This is a massive assumption. SW sensor tech is substantially in advance of most sensors seen in the SG-verse, including highly sensitive 'gravitic traps' that can detect cloaked ships. Also the ZPM-boosted Wraith hive ship in 'Enemy at the Gate' managed to detect and fire on a cloaked puddle jumper using otherwise standard wraith sensors, suggesting that like real-world radar stealth it is possible to 'burn-through' the cloak just by increasing the output power of active sensors by an order of magnitude or two. Since SW power generation is substantially more advanced than SGverse power generation, and specifically the Death Star reactor output (and almost certainly active sensor output) is vastly in excess of what an individual ZPM in a Wraith hiveship can put out, I strongly suspect the DS sensors will easily detect the puddle jumper.

and possess drone weapons which are superior in maneuverability to proton torpedoes (again, to my knowledge, which is admittedly sketchy in that regard).

I doubt it. In ANH, Luke's torpedoes made a right angle turn of well over 10,000G. However this shouldn't matter if the cloaking device actually worked, since as you say the PJ could just fly slowly up to the port and fire directly in.

A jumper would cloak immediately after take off, simply fly up to the death star, enter the trench, hover above the exhaust port and launch drones inside.

First problem; drones are command-guided and apparently remotely-powered weapons, and whatever guidance technology they use might not work through the DS surface shielding and multi-km-thick armor and internal machinery. Second problem; drones don't seem to have an explosive yield, they work by drilling through the ship (including sensitive machinery) and coming out the other side. But the DS reactor is ridiculously huge, putting a single relatively tiny hole in it might not do anything, particularly if the containment is mostly field-based. If the drone can't replicate the PT's multimegaton yield, it most likely won't destroy the station even if it can get into the reactor.

If you want an instant kill of SGverse vs DS, you'll probably need to use their hyperdrive (which can jump through shields and solid matter) and/or the phasing technology (which demonstrably makes ships immune to weapons fire as well as being able to pass through solid matter). It's still not guaranteed to go through SW shields, and a phased ship might still get detected by gravitic sensors and tractored, but it seems more likely to work than a simple cloaked jumper.

[Solauren]

So, basically, you're saying a cloak starfighter in rebel hands would have had a better chance at destroying the Death Star then a non-cloaked fighter?

Bravo! You figured out the obvious!

Now, here's a monkey wrench for you to consider.

Darth Vader.

Cloaked or not, he's going to sense something is up via the Force. (After all, the Force has plans for him yet). Vader has shown some incredible detection abilities. He may very well sense the Puddle Jumper coming, and do something about it.


Further consideration: Puddle Jumper Weapons

We have never seen them pull anything near to the maneuverability of a Proton Torpedo.

We have no idea what the firepower of a Puddle Jumper Weapon is either. We've seen them take out a Gou'ald Ha'tok, but we don't know if the Ha'tok's shields were up or not. You can handwave all you want, but we've never seen them (to my knowledge) hit something that wasn't manufactured. A Puddle Jumper's guns may not be able to even get by the Ray Shields over the Exhaust port, let along crack the armor on the biggest reactor the Empire has ever built.

Sorry, you don't have a leg to stand on. It's a nice theory, but in practice.


Now, re-arm a Puddle Jumper with a few Proton Torpedoes to remove the unknowns as it regards the Jumpers default weapons, and we can talk.

[Asthma Phantom]

Hm.., Okay, thanks for your help and for blowing a hole in the theory.

Flaws? How about putting something concrete then your assumptions.

I thought I provided enough information on this scenario. I'm still getting to grips with how this site works. I'll give some concrete info next time since other people have already provided it on this thread.

[Beowulf]

There are, apparently, two types of cloaking devices. You've got the double blind type featured in the Zahn novels, and you've got the single blind ones like the Sith infiltrator from Ep1. Regardless, the Puddle Jumper isn't based off of either of those, being from an entirely different series.

It's possible that they have a CGT array on the Deathstar, but it's equally possible that there's no way to turn that into targetting information of sufficient accuracy to hit the Puddle Jumper.

[Ghost Rider]

Flaws? How about putting something concrete then your assumptions.

I thought I provided enough information on this scenario. I'm still getting to grips with how this site works. I'll give some concrete info next time since other people have already provided it on this thread.

Laying out a scenario that is basically "Ship X will destroy Object Y...I'm not going to give any objective information why." is not the way to handle things. You laid out your information as subjective want that you believe it will work disregarding the differences between the tech.

[PREDATOR490]

There was a thread that had people debating over what tech from SG would be of use to SW and it died rather horribly when one of the people claimed bullshit about the drones. A.K.A A single drone was capable of duplicating the feat of Jango Fett's charges in AOTC.
Regardless, the scene has Jumpers destroying asteroids via. Drones to clear a path for the city to pass through and the destructive power was nowhere near that level.

The 'superior agility' of drones angle I distinctly call into question. ANH torpedoes do a high speed right angle turn which no drone has managed to do while guided. The closest example would be Rodney using one to burrow a hole to the surface in Atlantis but no Puddle Jumper drone has achieved this feat from memory. Even if by some means they can achieve this then I cant imagine a piliot being able to remotely guide the drone while dodging the hail of weapons fire. Most importantly though, drones have been witnessed to have a limited flight time.
Atlantis first episode has a drone be evaded by a modern helicopter until it eventually goes dead and later in 'The Return Pt 2' where Sheppard evades drones being fired by Asurans, who would logically be amoungst the best capable of using the drones to their maximum potential, which eventually seem to give out after a period of time. Either the Drones get their power remotely, their range is limited or they need remote guidance from a pilot. Reliance on remote control makes them vulnerable to jamming which the Death Star certainly had and is prevelant in the SW verse and a limited flight time makes it possible they wont be able to reach the reactor before giving out.

[Batman]

When was it established that drones are remotely guided OR powered? They obviously have limited endurance but I can't recall it ever being stated to be due to them being remotely controlled/powered. I don't see why they have to be anything other than a REALLY high tech fire-and-forget projectile. (If they actually explained it somewhere and I just missed it/forgot about it, feel free to correct me).
Their maneuverability is nowhere near that of a proton torpedo and also completely irrelevant IF the simulation they ran on Yavin was accurate-the tricky part was getting the torpedo to make the turn at the right instant, after that it was straight ahead all the way to the reactor and IF the cloak works the Jumper can hover nose-down over the shaft and fire directly into it. If the cloak DOESN'T it's dead anyway and the question is moot.
Now IF the drone can do to the reactor what the protorp did, AND the Jumper lives long enough to launch it, AND it ISN'T a remotely-guided projectile, then that one Jumper likely COULD kill the Death Star...assuming it gets there in time. Unless we assume out-of-universe knowledge OR the Jumper just HAPPENING to be in the right spot at the right time, it has to travel to the DS' location from Yavin IV same way the Rebels did. What's the best acceleration we've ever seen a Jumper pull?

[NecronLord]

I'll give this a more detailed treatment tomorrow some time. But a few things in starglider's post stood out here.

This is a massive assumption. SW sensor tech is substantially in advance of most sensors seen in the SG-verse, including highly sensitive 'gravitic traps' that can detect cloaked ships.

Which were, as far as we know, not present on either death star.

I doubt it. In ANH, Luke's torpedoes made a right angle turn of well over 10,000G.

The characteristics of drones are unknown, but in terms of linear accelleration, that's pathetic by SG standards. A goa'uld mothership was able to sustain something on the order of 32,000 Gs for twenty minutes or so in Enemies. With death gliders being faster.

Of course, your figure is angular acceleration - and the drones' turning circle isn't nearly as small.

First problem; drones are command-guided and apparently remotely-powered weapons, and whatever guidance technology they use might not work through the DS surface shielding and multi-km-thick armor and internal machinery. Second problem; drones don't seem to have an explosive yield, they work by drilling through the ship (including sensitive machinery) and coming out the other side.

They definately have an explosive yeild. They've been used to explode asteroids. Nothing on a nuclear level, though.

[NecronLord]

When was it established that drones are remotely guided OR powered?

They have independant targeting ability, but are remotely powered.

In The Tower, as the Lord Protector is using his drones to attack a village, McKay burns out the ZPM powering them, and they fall from the sky, inert.

In Rising, the weapon is called a 'Rogue Drone that can seek a target on its own' which is quite explicit - while the user can obviously designate targets for them, and they steer to avoid friendly ships, when simply activated, they can select their own targets. The mini-drones in Harmony certainly sought out their own targets - attacking anyone who came into a specified area without certain characteristics. They did not require a remote user to guide them - though perhaps the computer system that housed them was controlling them.

[Batman]

They OBVIOUSLY need to be targetable by the firer to be useful. My point was that they never seem to actually need any remote guidance after launch.
Is them being remotely powered consistent? For example, have there ever been examples of drones hitting their targets despite their launch platforms being down? Conversely, do drones ALWAYS die when their launch platform does?

[NecronLord]

They OBVIOUSLY need to be targetable by the firer to be useful. My point was that they never seem to actually need any remote guidance after launch.

Unknown how much is determined on firing and how much is continuous. Certainly the capacity to shut them down after firing exists, though that's hardly remote guidance.

Is them being remotely powered consistent? For example, have there ever been examples of drones hitting their targets despite their launch platforms being down? Conversely, do drones ALWAYS die when their launch platform does?

This has only happened on one occasion, so, yes.

[Batman]

Much obliged.

[Bilbo]

Nevermind Necronlord beat me to answering Batman's question.

[Lord of the Abyss]

There are, apparently, two types of cloaking devices. You've got the double blind type featured in the Zahn novels, and you've got the single blind ones like the Sith infiltrator from Ep1. Regardless, the Puddle Jumper isn't based off of either of those, being from an entirely different series.

It's possible that they have a CGT array on the Deathstar, but it's equally possible that there's no way to turn that into targetting information of sufficient accuracy to hit the Puddle Jumper.

Given that CGTs are rare ( that's why the New Republic had to steal one ) it doesn't seem likely that the Death Star would have one. For that matter, it had trouble hitting fighters that weren't even cloaked; the DS was built to blow up planets and to shrug off attacks by capital ships. Anything smaller being a threat apparently wasn't a design consideration.

[Havok]

Cloaked or not, he's going to sense something is up via the Force. (After all, the Force has plans for him yet). Vader has shown some incredible detection abilities. He may very well sense the Puddle Jumper coming, and do something about it.

I'm not arguing against you on the overall point, but... he has?
He didn't sense Obi Wan until he was a few meters away from him when he was on the Death Star in ANH. He only sensed Luke in ROTJ when he was making a relatively close pass of the Executor's bridge. He didn't sense Obi Wan on Mustafar until... well never... Obi Wan had to walk out on the ramp of Padme's ship before he even knew he was there. He didn't know Luke wasn't on the Falcon in TESB.

Where are these incredible detection skills he has shown?

[Connor MacLeod]

Some points:

1.) Crystal Gravfield trap sensors are actually rather common on starships, as they're a common means of detecting gravity via their mass (though their ranges are short, no more than a few light seconds IIRC since they're rahter imprecise.) This is mentioned in the SWSB 1st and 2nd edition, and the Far Orbit project mentions Nebulon-B frigates carrying CGTs specifically, so its unlikely other ships would somehow fail to have them, including the DS. However, you need indepednent, specialized 9and preusmably large CGT arrays to detect cloaked ships at any practical distances (stated in the EGW&T to be "thousands of kilometers") - presumably that is because you need very precise, powerful and sensitive CGT arrays to do so. Warship ones would be smaller and less precise, and probably can't detect at any practical distance (in terms of interstellar distance anyhow.) Whether or not the DS's are big enough is another big unknown (but possible, since the DS is fuckoff huge.)

Of course, this assumes cloaking works similar to how SW cloaking works. Alot of the "how do they detect the Puddle jumper" depends on alot of things, like how the cloak works.

I would also like to point out that its idiotic to assume cloaks are going to be 100% efficienct under all circumstances. Starships still have to radiate waste heat at some point, and propulsion is a consideration (what sorts of emissions do the drive systems emit?) The puddle jumper is going to have to accelerate/decelerate and manuver to get into position to launch any weapons, so that's going to be a big "what if" in this scenario.

SW sensors do encompass other forms as well that may or may not be susceptible to cloak - subspace and Tachyonic sensors are FTL sensors (we know they interfere with physical masses, but again this depends on how the cloak works - it may not act as a physical barrier.) They have mass sensors (Planet of twilight) and other forms of gravitic sensors (NJO - they had to deal with the Vong which used a ton of gravwank remember.)

2.) Manuverability for starfighters was hampered by some sorts of field effects (jamming of some kind) as per the ANH novelization. There's no reason to assume the Puddle Jumper would be immune, so again propulsion method and stats are relevant (acceleration isn't relevant here either, thrust is since we're talking about a brute force effect likely.)

As for the proton torpedo, IIRC Mike estimated at least a 72,000 G turn, but that could be conservative on the basis of the torpedo's speed (could be estimated at several km/s by argument) and the aforementioned manuverability hampering. This doesnt neccesarily mean the drones couldn't pull it off either, but this requires further analysis. Also, we dont know how much was expended in making that acceleration, its not neccesarily "sustained" acceleration....

3.) Its explicitly mentioned in the Radio Drama that SW fighters needed "countermeasures" to bypass the magnetic fields and/or Outer shielding of the Death Star. This could be a problem for the pudlde jumpers if the countermeasures are important.

Lastly. How big is the drone? Is it big enough to manuver into the trench? Those protorps were very small compact munitions, there's a faint possibility the ymay or may not be able to get to the reactor (if there are protrusions inside the port, that could be a problem, for example.)

[Oskuro]

A minor nitpick regarding the gravity sensors on the DS. Are they really precise enough to differentiate the gravity generated by a tiny fighter from its own gravity well?
I might buy a regular ship, even a capital ship, doing so. But the DS is a massive planetoid whose own gravitational pull should be enough to obscure small objects, specially so close to its surface.

Also, regarding the cloak, SG-verse cloaking fields are capable of completely hiding an entire city from enemy vessels in orbit actively scanning for them. I'd say considerations about irradiated heat and other sensible means of detecting objects that have simply become invisible are moot, the SG cloak seems to account for all of that, as it has been consistently shown to be indetectable, even when the cloaked ship was making radio transmissions.

As for the size of the drones, they are as big as a basketball. Oh, and McKay managed to program a flight route into the one he activated manually. Still, I'd say they are more of a penetration weapon than an explosive yield weapon.


So, who would win? I'm partial to the notion that even if fired into the reactor, a drone would not be able to cause enough damage. Drones were one of my favourite SG weapons, but they were impressive when used en-masse, specially in their first appearance, before they suffered the inevitable super-weapon decay.

[NecronLord]

As for CGTs, it's worth noting that Jumpers appear to have an adjustable mass.

ATLANTIS MAINLAND. The storm lashes the Puddle Jumper. Inside, Aiden Ford, Carson Beckett, Teyla Emmagan and the three young Athosian hunters look out through the windshield nervously. Just in front of the Jumper, a tree topples over and crashes down just in front of the ship.
FORD: Holy ...!
BECKETT: Right, that's it!
(He reaches to a dial on the control panel and begins to turn it slowly.)
FORD: What are you doing, man?
BECKETT: Adding weight to the Puddle Jumper by resetting its inertial dampeners.
FORD: You shouldn't screw with those controls. We're heavy enough.
BECKETT (still turning the dial): Can't be too careful.
FORD: Yes, you can. You can be way too careful.
(Carson continues turning the dial.)
FORD: There's no chance we're gonna blow away here. Let it go.
BECKETT (releasing the dial and sitting back): That should be enough.

It's not known if they can be used in reverse, but it's worth considering. In any case, under normal circumstances, as far as we know, the Death Star doesn't seem to have carried a CGT capable of detecting cloaked ships.

Of course, it does carry Darth Vader.


As for the size of a jumper's drones, this one came from the Earth outpost, This one is from The Tower (city ship). It's strongly implied that there is only one size in use, in Harmony (where they discover a research area with prototype 12 guage drones for use on ground targets). This is one of the jumper's drone racks, and they definately seem to be the same size.

They're certainly small enough to get into the thermal exhaust port.

[Stark]

Is this a thread really discussing if a totally invisible ship could approach the Death Star and shoot it in the butt? Honestly? I'd think it was pretty goddamn obvious that -any- totally invisible ship would be able to do it with ease. The real question is if the cloak will work, and that's it.

[Darth Hoth]

Cloaked or not, he's going to sense something is up via the Force. (After all, the Force has plans for him yet). Vader has shown some incredible detection abilities. He may very well sense the Puddle Jumper coming, and do something about it.

I'm not arguing against you on the overall point, but... he has?
He didn't sense Obi Wan until he was a few meters away from him when he was on the Death Star in ANH. He only sensed Luke in ROTJ when he was making a relatively close pass of the Executor's bridge. He didn't sense Obi Wan on Mustafar until... well never... Obi Wan had to walk out on the ramp of Padme's ship before he even knew he was there. He didn't know Luke wasn't on the Falcon in TESB.

Where are these incredible detection skills he has shown?

All the instances you list concern powerful Force-users, who may have been throwing out "static" to escape detection (it is not like there are not many examples of Jedi making themselves hard to detect). When Luke was not evading detection, Vader could sense him over interstellar distances (numerous examples, TESB is the highest-canon one).

Of course, this assumes cloaking works similar to how SW cloaking works. Alot of the "how do they detect the Puddle jumper" depends on alot of things, like how the cloak works.

On a related note, although not necessarily relevant here, if I recall correctly Star Wars has cloaking devices that are effective against gravitic/mass detection also (they are mentioned in the bit on Palpatine's shuttle in RotS ICS).

[NecronLord]

Is this a thread really discussing if a totally invisible ship could approach the Death Star and shoot it in the butt? Honestly? I'd think it was pretty goddamn obvious that -any- totally invisible ship would be able to do it with ease. The real question is if the cloak will work, and that's it.

Actually, I'm pretty sure it doesn't have the firepower. They'd probably have to bring a nuclear weapon strapped to the bottom (though that's been done on occasion) and try and drop it down the shaft.

[Starglider]

All this CGT discussion is probably irrelevant - I regret mentioning them, they're normally brought up in the context of Trek cloaks (phase and otherwise). We have an example from 'Enemy at the Gate' of a wraith ship burning through PJ cloak and being able to fire weapons at it using nothing more than a huge power boost. The DS has vastly more power generation than a ZPM, and active sensor arrays likely built to radidate at massive powers. There is a convenient analogy in real life, in that radar stealth technology can be overcome (ignoring filtering issues) by greatly increasing radar power. Thus the PJ cloak most likely won't work against the DS, assuming competent operators who investigate (or fire a few shots at) all anomolous inbound sensor signatures.