The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Forty One Up

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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Seven Up

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Surlethe wrote:Is there anything about the landslide that is necessarily caused by Heaven? It may be that humans start blaming Heaven for any catastrophe, even though Yahweh's angels might've had nothing to do with it.
Landslides are the most common natural disaster humans deal with. As a result, they're also one of the best-studied and most predictable. The factors which trigger them are easily observable and verifiable. If when surveying the aftermath we find a slope that shouldn't have weakened as much as it did, or that wasn't steep enough to fail, it will be very obvious. My bet is that its more an indirect cause, perhaps Yaweh has been hitting England with three times its' normal amount of rain.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eight Up

Post by XaLEv »

How exactly is any sort of mitochondrial analysis applicable to anthrax? I'm not aware of any prokaryotes having mitochondria.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eight Up

Post by Darth Wong »

Excellent! It's nice to see that there is indeed evidence of each nation developing its own covert portal program.

As for the possibility of opening a portal to Heaven, has anyone considered the possibility of going after one of Heaven's weak spots, ie- Yahweh's enormous ego? We still don't know how to get a portal open to Heaven, but I get the impression that Yahweh can still sense human praise (he seems to live on the stuff). So what if we convinced millions of people worldwide to gather together at a specified time and all chant in unison "Yahweh is a coward. He hides in Heaven." over and over? Would he hear it? Would we be able to goad him into opening a portal?
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eight Up

Post by GrandMasterTerwynn »

XaLEv wrote:How exactly is any sort of mitochondrial analysis applicable to anthrax? I'm not aware of any prokaryotes having mitochondria.
Wow, I read past that part, and it didn't click until just now. Mitochondria are, essentially, prokaryotes that entered into a symbiotic relationship with eukaryotes hundreds of millions of years ago, and were gradually shaped into the internal cellular structures they are now by the guiding hand of evolution. This is why mitochondria have DNA that we can use to date eukaryotes.

Fortunately for our intrepid heroes, the anthrax genome was fully decoded six years ago. We know that there are just a couple of places on the anthrax genome that put it apart from its harmless soil bacteria relatives.

The upshot of this is that our intrepid heroes needed only to extract and analyze the DNA of the angelic anthrax, compare it with those of known strains, and would've come up with the result.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eight Up

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

Mang, I'd pay to see those Filipino soldiers in hell get eaten by Baldrick insurrectionists. Just for the lulz.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eight Up

Post by Pu-239 »

I thought Anthrax and other bacteria were prokaryotes which didn't have mitochondria?

[EDIT] Well, I guess already addressed by others.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Seven Up

Post by erik_t »

Stuart wrote:Arden's work area filled up as the investigators crowded around to look at the display. The green line left on it was remarkable. The baseline showed a small amount of grass, random noise that couldn’t be predicted or ever quite eliminated but the spike that was left had, quite definitely never been seen before. It was a straight line, up and down.

"There's no sidebands, no resonance, no echoes nothing." Gail's voice was awed. "It’s a completely pure note."

"That's right. Every musical note there has ever been has been mixed up with all sorts of distortions. Look at them using this equipment and it’s a ragged peak. It goes up in a jagged line, there's a plateau at the top that shows cyclic variations and it goes down in a jagged line. Then there's side-bands and resonances at different frequencies. Lots of them. All the energy transmitted in the note is spread across the area under that line, dispersed, weakened and generally dissipated. Even so, sound's got a lot of punch, we broke things with it quite regularly."

"Like theater manager's hearts?"

"Those too, although most of them deserved it. Some of them never even read the contract, hence the no-green-jellybean rule. Anyway, that's not the case here. The sound is one perfect pulse. Straight up, point, straight down. A perfectly pure note and all the energy is concentrated in that note. Talk about a slam, the energy here," he tapped the screen with a switchblade, "is incredible. This thing, its coherent sound. It's the sonic equivalent of a laser and I'd guess that its just as destructive. It's got about as much resemblance to a musical note as a high-powered laser has to a flashlight."
Um, this is painful. Please rethink your explanation, using TK if you have to. I'd prefer no physics to buttfucked physics.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eight Up

Post by Stuart »

GrandMasterTerwynn wrote: Mitochondria are, essentially, prokaryotes that entered into a symbiotic relationship with eukaryotes hundreds of millions of years ago, and were gradually shaped into the internal cellular structures they are now by the guiding hand of evolution. This is why mitochondria have DNA that we can use to date eukaryotes. Fortunately for our intrepid heroes, the anthrax genome was fully decoded six years ago. We know that there are just a couple of places on the anthrax genome that put it apart from its harmless soil bacteria relatives. The upshot of this is that our intrepid heroes needed only to extract and analyze the DNA of the angelic anthrax, compare it with those of known strains, and would've come up with the result.
Well. if you'd like to rewrite the paragraph (I'm not a molecular biologist), that would be fine.
Erik_t wrote:Um, this is painful. Please rethink your explanation, using TK if you have to. I'd prefer no physics to buttfucked physics.
Actually, its what we've been doing with sonar equipment for the last forty years. Using signal processing to compress the transmission pulse to as brief and intense a level as possible, tightening it up so that it is spread over the smallest possible range of frequences and eliminating sidelobes and harmonics. All of that with teh specific intent of concentrating as much energy as possible into the smallest possible pulse in terms of frequency coverage. I've just pushed it to the ultimate level where the energy in the pulse is concentrated into a single frequency spike with no spread or harmonics.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eight Up

Post by Vehrec »

Stuart wrote:
GrandMasterTerwynn wrote: Mitochondria are, essentially, prokaryotes that entered into a symbiotic relationship with eukaryotes hundreds of millions of years ago, and were gradually shaped into the internal cellular structures they are now by the guiding hand of evolution. This is why mitochondria have DNA that we can use to date eukaryotes. Fortunately for our intrepid heroes, the anthrax genome was fully decoded six years ago. We know that there are just a couple of places on the anthrax genome that put it apart from its harmless soil bacteria relatives. The upshot of this is that our intrepid heroes needed only to extract and analyze the DNA of the angelic anthrax, compare it with those of known strains, and would've come up with the result.
Well. if you'd like to rewrite the paragraph (I'm not a molecular biologist), that would be fine.
One of the other problems with this is that by the time you run a Polymerase Chain Reaction and sequencing of the strain's genome, several days or a week may have passed, putting many of the sensitives out of commission before anything is known. On the other hand, without any antibiotic resistance at all, the anthrax would have gone down very quickly in the face of treatment. So given the nature of the disease and the research that needs to be done on it, it's very likely that this is after the majority of cases have run their course.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Seven Up

Post by Stuart »

Force Lord wrote:Why I'm seeing SDN people in that story?
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eight Up

Post by Stuart »

Vehrec wrote: One of the other problems with this is that by the time you run a Polymerase Chain Reaction and sequencing of the strain's genome, several days or a week may have passed, putting many of the sensitives out of commission before anything is known. On the other hand, without any antibiotic resistance at all, the anthrax would have gone down very quickly in the face of treatment. So given the nature of the disease and the research that needs to be done on it, it's very likely that this is after the majority of cases have run their course.
Given the dating, this is about two to three weeks after the attacks (a week incubation then the disease presenting itself. So, the "several days to a week" is within the timespan allowed.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eight Up

Post by JN1 »

The British Isles (UK and Republic of Ireland) are suffering unseasonably heavy rain, think a year's worth over a week. It's causing flooding in many places and landslides in places like Baccup. It may also seriously effect British and Irish agriculture if it lasts much longer.
The Met Office is not convinced that the heavy rain is a natural event. The tornado that damaged BAE Preston and Warton aerodrome has made people very suspicious about any unusual weather.

Another good chapter, Stu, and thanks again.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eight Up

Post by erik_t »

Stuart wrote:
Erik_t wrote:Um, this is painful. Please rethink your explanation, using TK if you have to. I'd prefer no physics to buttfucked physics.
Actually, its what we've been doing with sonar equipment for the last forty years. Using signal processing to compress the transmission pulse to as brief and intense a level as possible, tightening it up so that it is spread over the smallest possible range of frequences and eliminating sidelobes and harmonics. All of that with teh specific intent of concentrating as much energy as possible into the smallest possible pulse in terms of frequency coverage. I've just pushed it to the ultimate level where the energy in the pulse is concentrated into a single frequency spike with no spread or harmonics.
The generation of such a beam is possible in principle, but such a concentrated beam will not propagate as you seem to think it will. Any three-body molecular collision will dissipate the beam's energy, and any collision in which the line of centers is not collinear with the pre-collision velocity vectors of both molecules will result in the beam spreading. You're also going to lose energy to internal modes (primarily vibration and rotation).

A laser has the properties we're familiar with because we are usually interested in light's motion through vacuum or air, both essentially non-interactive "materials". Sound is intrinsically linked to material interaction. Over any distance relevant to air combat, I do not believe a beam of sound with laser-like propagation is possible. Maybe in a perfect crystal at implausibly low temperatures, but I'm not even sure of that.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eight Up

Post by Baughn »

Stuart wrote: Actually, its what we've been doing with sonar equipment for the last forty years. Using signal processing to compress the transmission pulse to as brief and intense a level as possible, tightening it up so that it is spread over the smallest possible range of frequences and eliminating sidelobes and harmonics. All of that with teh specific intent of concentrating as much energy as possible into the smallest possible pulse in terms of frequency coverage. I've just pushed it to the ultimate level where the energy in the pulse is concentrated into a single frequency spike with no spread or harmonics.
But you can't do that. Physics does not work that way.

First off, it's literally impossible to make a pure note; unless it happens to have infinite duration, you'll get harmonics at the start and end, decreasing (but never hitting zero) as you near the middle. That's with perfect speakers, too.

Second, these are sound waves, not light. They travel through the medium of air, which is a heck of a lot more grainy than the quantum vacuum - it'd mess up the frequency spectrum too.

Third, and most problematic, the degree to which a wave spreads out is an (inverse) function of its frequency, not its purity. If you want a sound "laser", the simplest way to do this is to give it a frequency that is more commonly associated with light. In fact, one way we're "beaming" sound today is to use multiple speakers, each of which produces a high-ultrasound beam; due to its frequency it won't spread out. We then have them interfering at the target site to produce sound we can actually hear. Kind of inefficient, but it works.

For your story, all you need to do is specify that it's a bloody loud noise at an enormous frequency. Oh, and you can make it unusually pure too, if you want, but that doesn't really matter; you're smashing stuff up with pure force here, not trying to hit a resonant frequency.

Unless you are. That would be nifty.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eight Up

Post by Baughn »

I might add - I've only heard about such sound beams being used at a range of a few meters - a dozen, tops.

erik_t may well be right that it can't be done at longer ranges due to the nature of air, period; I don't know enough to say.

Now. If, given that this is confirmed, you still want angels to bust stuff up with sound - stop trying to explain the physics. My willing suspension of disbelief works only so long as I don't see something I can point at as "wrong".
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eight Up

Post by Stan »

Keep it up, Stuart. I'm really liking it so far.

Would you like some semi-professional editing?
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eight Up

Post by CaptainChewbacca »

Stan wrote:Keep it up, Stuart. I'm really liking it so far.

Would you like some semi-professional editing?
That job is already taken by two or three of us :P

Baughn, glad you could join in on the discussion. I love how Salvation War seems to attract the attention of experts, it must be something to do with Stuart's writing that brings y'all in.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eight Up

Post by Baughn »

Thanks for the compliment, but my professional field is informatics, not physics. That's just a hobby. :)

That actually makes my comments stronger, though. If a non-physicist can see this, you can be a lot of other readers will too.

The "you can't have a pure finite note, period" thing is well-known in information science, however; it affects all sorts of data transmission rather directly. Though it's not quite true when it comes to light.. anyway.

EDIT: There are issues on several levels.

First, if you could start/stop a note instantly (you can't), that start/stop would itself register as a harmonic. At an infinite frequency, which means infinite power (over infinitesimal time).. right, you can't do that.

What you have to do is increase the loudness gradually. You still get harmonics, however; the increase/decrease itself can alternately be viewed as higher frequency tones turning on/off, and anything that might react to those will do just that.

Or, to take the information-theoretical point of view, a pure note has zero bandwidth and can't transfer any information; however, if you can turn it on and off, you can obviously transfer information. Therefore the note isn't pure.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eight Up

Post by CaptainChewbacca »

Baughn wrote:Thanks for the compliment, but my professional field is informatics, not physics. That's just a hobby. :)

That actually makes my comments stronger, though. If a non-physicist can see this, you can be a lot of other readers will too.
I tend to be more forgiving of science when its fun, and there's something about the notion of a beam of pure sound that I found too cool to dislike. Any audiophiles got a better idea for a sonic weapon?
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eight Up

Post by Baughn »

Sonic weapons? Hmm..

A really clever weapon would be something to trigger resonant frequencies in the airplane.

There's no time for careful probing on part of the angel; automatic or not, the sound simply can't go back and forth fast enough. So what you could do, which some experts would probably call bullshit on (well, they couldn't really know for sure), yet be entertained by the sheer novelty..

Sound can interact with itself. In theory, you could create a sort of computer made out of pure sound - something capable of doing information processing, at least.

You could literally send a self-tuning beam of sound towards the aircraft, which will interact with the aircraft to find the best resonance points and dump its energy in there.

As a bonus, this could be why it's staying as a beam at all. It's a living creature.. well, as much as our missiles are.


I know I'd do a double-take on seeing something like that. I might not believe it's possible in real life, but hell, I wouldn't care. :P

EDIT: And as an extra bonus, you could armor aircraft against this by removing resonance possibilities. It's entirely doable, if fiddly.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eight Up

Post by erik_t »

A long-range Brown Note would be highly disruptive.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eight Up

Post by Pelranius »

Darth Wong wrote:Excellent! It's nice to see that there is indeed evidence of each nation developing its own covert portal program.

As for the possibility of opening a portal to Heaven, has anyone considered the possibility of going after one of Heaven's weak spots, ie- Yahweh's enormous ego? We still don't know how to get a portal open to Heaven, but I get the impression that Yahweh can still sense human praise (he seems to live on the stuff). So what if we convinced millions of people worldwide to gather together at a specified time and all chant in unison "Yahweh is a coward. He hides in Heaven." over and over? Would he hear it? Would we be able to goad him into opening a portal?
Do you mean actually gathering all the people in one physical location? That sounds rather hazardous, but the idea will probably work (assuming that Michael doesn't find a way to plug up Yahweh's "psychic hearing")
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Seven Up

Post by tim31 »

Sidewinder wrote:As Mr. Slade noted, the A-10 is a single-role aircraft, i.e., near useless against a Su-27 or MiG-29, which will get the first shot, as they can fly higher & use air-to-air radar, & the A-10 cannot. As much as you & I love the bird, the only thing it can do against Starscream, Thundercracker, & Skywarp, is run & hide.
Near, but not completely useless. The best thing a ground-pouder can do- hell, any pilot can do, is to force the opponent to fight on their terms. This means making them get down in the dirt and party.
erik_t wrote:A long-range Brown Note would be highly disruptive.
I actually thought brown note when I first read the angel attack!, but I'm a pretty big Van Halen fan.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eight Up

Post by K. A. Pital »

Baughn wrote:You could literally send a self-tuning beam of sound towards the aircraft, which will interact with the aircraft to find the best resonance points and dump its energy in there.

As a bonus, this could be why it's staying as a beam at all. It's a living creature.. well, as much as our missiles are.

I know I'd do a double-take on seeing something like that. I might not believe it's possible in real life, but hell, I wouldn't care.
Awesome idea!

Just a note - despite any (not yet sorted out) technical disrepancies, I really, really like Stuart's portrayal of Heaven's capabilities. "Old" does not mean "pussified" as it was in case of Hell.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eight Up

Post by Xess »

In regards to the sound issue wouldn't the easiest way to resolve it be to say that it's not perfect just so close that the imperfections aren't noticeable within the margin of error for the flight recorder data? Of course as I don't know anything about the subject that's probably just as bad and you'd only wind up getting into the "The audience will believe the impossible but not the very implausible" area.
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