Citizen's Arrest- How far is too far?

[Cairber]

A summary of the situation:

An 11 year old year was taken by a male, who raped and beat her for quite a few hours. She was found and recovered at a local hospital. The police put out an alert that they were looking for a person of interest. That person was spotted by locals who proceeded to beat him in a citizen's arrest. Some of the arrest is on tape and you can see three or so people hitting the man with a bat or something similar. The tape cuts off before the end of the beating.

kyw story

Neighbors who beat man over rape won't be charged

By PATRICK WALTERS
Associated Press Writer
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Neighbors who beat man over rape won't be charged


PHILADELPHIA (AP) -- Philadelphia's police commissioner said Thursday he will not pursue criminal charges against a group of angry neighbors who beat a man sought for questioning in the rape of an 11-year-old girl.

Commissioner Charles Ramsey said he made the decision based on the severity of the man's head and face lacerations, his determination that the neighbors' intent was to bring the man to police and the high level of emotion in the community after the girl's brutal attack.

About a dozen residents of the city's West Kensington neighborhood pummeled 26-year-old Jose Carrasquillo for several minutes on Tuesday. Officers arrived and took him into custody on an outstanding warrant; he has been upgraded to stable condition.

"From what I've seen so far, we have one victim and that's an 11-year-old girl," Ramsey said in an interview with The Associated Press.

Before making his decision, Ramsey said, he monitored Carrasquillo's condition and reviewed surveillance video of the assault. As soon as officers arrived at the scene, he said, the group stopped the beating.

"These people saw him, he attempted to run and they caught up with him," Ramsey said. "If the injuries had been severe, maybe we'd have to rethink it."

The Philadelphia chapter of the Fraternal Order of Police had offered a $10,000 reward in the rape case.

Carrasquillo has not been charged in the rape, but Ramsey said investigators have very strong forensic evidence and witness identification placing him at the scene.

"I think you have to take into account the emotion. I think you have to take into account the severity of the injuries," Ramsey said, adding that he does not condone vigilante justice. "It's unfortunate that we didn't find him first."

The girl had just dropped off a sibling at day care and was walking to school Monday when a man approached her, investigators said. He started to walk with her, threatened her and said he had a gun. He took her to a nearby backyard and raped her repeatedly, authorities said.

A day later, after police had handed out photos identifying Carrasquillo as a "person of interest," neighbors spotted him on the street.

Surveillance video shows a man being chased by at least three people, one of whom hits him several times with what appears to be a bat or large stick. As they chase the man, a crowd gathers. The video cuts off after a police officer arrives.

Ramsey said he had to walk a fine line in deciding whether to charge the man's attackers.

"There is something called a citizen's arrest," Ramsey said. "These are people that aren't trained. They are holding people for police to arrive."

A message left at the public defender's office, which has represented Carrasquillo in prior cases, was not immediately returned Thursday.

This story says the suspect was in critical condition after the beating:

Shortly after police put out his name and picture as a person of interest on Tuesday, they were summoned to Front and Clearfield Streets, where people were putting a hurt on the guy. People at the scene told us he'd been punched and hit with a stick, and shortly after the arrest he was in critical condition. Surveillance video (above) seemed to show one man wielding a two-by-four as he chased Carrasquillo.

kyw link

Philadelphia's mayor had this to say:

"I'm glad that that part of the situation has been resolved. It will go forward through the normal criminal justice process. But it's a further demonstration that Philadelphians care passionately about the city, about our quality of life, and certainly about our children."

Nutter says that while he does not generally condone what some might consider vigilantism, he says he'll leave it up to the police to investigate the circumstances of the arrest:

"I have not seen the video. I do not have all the details of what happened out on the street, how it got started, what went down. The police department certainly knows how to conduct its business and any investigation that may be necessary."

What do you think? Justified beating? If he turns out not to be linked via DNA evidence to the rape, what happens to his attackers?

[Xenophobe3691]

What happens to his attackers?

The jury refuses to convict them

[Ryan Thunder]

Sounds unjustified, to me. I could wave it off in a "hot pursuit" sort of scenario, as in, they caught him in the act, ran him down and beat the shit out of him. But this... they just wanted the guy for questioning. What if he had nothing to do with it?

[TheFeniX]

Private citizens are put under more scrutiny for wrongful arrests, but that's irrelevant considering he did have a previous warrant out for his arrest. From the reading I did, years ago mind you, on Texas law: you can't wrongfully arrest someone who has a warrant out, even if you arrested him for something else unrelated. Laws like these do tend to be pretty standard across the country.

Citizens arrest generally falls under the same criteria for a police officer: you can only use reasonable force to subdue a suspect. If he's not resisting, then the most you can do is restrain him to keep him from fleeing. 12 guys beating the shit out of him would be trivially easy to show as using more force than necessary. You could make the case for attempted murder. But as Xeno said, good luck finding a jury to convict.

Personally though, I believe they should at the least be admonished by authorities to show that high emotions aren't an excuse to beat someone down. Right now, everyone seems to be saying "E for effort." Basically, they got lucky and that's not a good enough excuse for their actions.

[Sea Skimmer]

This guy has 17 prior adult arrests at age 26, and was charged with a previous rape that went down in almost the exact same manner as this rape but for unknown reasons the charges ended up being dropped before trial. He was already on parole, scheduled to stand trial for another crime in June, and was wanted on yet another warrant which is all he has been arrested on so far.

Mob justice isn’t the worst thing that can happen when you catch someone in the act, but as much as this guy was a career piece of shit you can’t go around beating up someone who has only been named as a person the police want to talk too.

No one will be charged in the beating BTW, The Police Commissioner of Philadelphia has already said so today on TV. The city has way more important things to pursue at the moment.

[Cairber]

Interesting about his history, KYW has nothing on that on their site right now.

[Cairber]

Spoke too soon:

The same day that Philadelphia police released a photo of a "person of interest" in connection with the rape of an 11-year-old girl in West Kensington, an angry group of neighbors grabbed and beat the man before turning him over to police.

Officials say 26-year-old Jose Carrasquillo of North Philadelphia was taken into custody at Front and Clearfield after being grabbed and roughed up by neighborhood residents who held him until police arrived.

Carrasquillo was taken to Temple University Hospital in handcuffs for treatment.

He was also facing a DNA screening to positively establish his identity and determine whether he is linked to the case.

Although police initially stressed that Carrasquillo was not wanted for the rape, his photograph bears a striking resemblance to an artist's sketch of the perpetrator released by police on Monday afternoon.

Investigators say Carrasquillo had previously been seen in the backyard where the rape occurred.

Both Carrasquillo and the perpetrator were described as 5' 8" tall, with a thin build. Carrasquillo has tattoos on the left side of his neck -- an Asian symbol and a skull with a cross through a heart and the words "RIP" and "Mom."

Commissioner Charles Ramsey says Carrasquillo is no stranger to police:

"His past history shows a prior sexual assault, but the charges were withdrawn. He has 17 priors -- narcotics, sex, and a few other kinds of cases."

Folks in West Kensington say the fight began when one of the residents recognized a man they thought was Carrasquillo:

(Woman:) "The detectives came around [earlier in the day] and they showed a picture of him."

(Man:) "He walked by and somebody was like, 'Yo! This guy looks like the guy who raped the little girl!' "

(Woman:) "We already had knew him from the neighborhood."

(Man:) "So they confronted him, like, 'Don't go nowhere!' "

That's when residents say they decided to take matters into their own hands:

"One of the other guys hit him in the head with a stick a couple times. I punched him in his face. My friend hit him, and then he got arrested by the cops."

So do residents think they did anything wrong?

"All the people were just so excited, they were just screaming and jumping. 'We got him, we got him!' It's a good feeling! We got this guy out of the streets. So we all look out for each other here. People think we're bad. We're not."

It wasn't immediately clear if anyone will be charged in the beating. Police were looking into the incident.

The 11-year-old girl was raped on Monday morning as she made her way to school in West Kensington. The victim said the man, who called himself "Alex," had deep cuts on his neck. Police recovered his glasses (below).

The Fraternal Order of Police issued a $10,000 reward in the case.

Capt. John Darby of the police department's Special Victims Unit says the girl had just dropped off a younger sibling at daycare about 8:20am when she was approached by a white male in his 20s (depicted in sketch at right) with black hair and facial hair, wearing a white t-shirt and black shorts with red and white stripes.

Darby says the man started walking beside the girl, then told her he had a gun and threatened her if she did not cooperate.

Darby says the attacker forced his young victim to walk with him from the 3000 block of Kensington Avenue and through an alley off the 2000 block of E. Westmoreland Street to a back yard, where he raped her repeatedly.

Officials say the girl was so severely injured that she had to undergo surgery at St. Christopher's Hospital for Children.

[Count Chocula]

Skimmer summed it up nicely. Did this bipedal waste of oxygen and CO2 polluter deserve every hit of his smackdown? Ohhh yes. Was it beyond the pale for a citizens' arrest? Yep. From what I recall of my CCW permit training, a private citizen is empowered to detain, using the minimum force necessary, until a peace officer arrives to take the suspect into custody. Smacking a suspect repeatedly with a stick if he's not resisting would get you in hot water, if you were one person taking one perp into custody. Given the nature of the alleged crime and the presence of multiple citizens, I doubt any of them will be charged with a crime.

[Dark Flame]

I think this is the point in the movies where the cops say "Thanks, but don't ever fucking do it again. And get out of here before I change my mind."

I think they did the right thing. The SOB deserved every bit of it, but it's not something we want people to get into the habit of.

[PeZook]

I think it's one of these cases where theoretically, people involved should be prosecuted, but authorities are willing to let it slide due to circumstances. If such occurences became commonplace, you can bet your ass the police and courts would start prosecuting like crazy.

[Stuart]

I think it's one of these cases where theoretically, people involved should be prosecuted, but authorities are willing to let it slide due to circumstances. If such occurences became commonplace, you can bet your ass the police and courts would start prosecuting like crazy.

Also, the people involved in the beat-down are still open to civil charges even if the law enforcement community gives them the traditional "well done - and don't ever do it again" speech. Even if they win the civil case, it could end up costing them a lot of money.

[Lonestar]

I think this is the point in the movies where the cops say "Thanks, but don't ever fucking do it again. And get out of here before I change my mind."

I think they did the right thing. The SOB deserved every bit of it, but it's not something we want people to get into the habit of.

Yeah? Would you still say "They did the right thing" if the DNA screening comes back negative and reduces the likelihood of him being the suspect immensely?

I mean, yeah he was a scumbag even if he wasn't involved in this particular case, but we live in a society of laws people.

[Dark Flame]

If he was guilty of that prior sexual assault, then yes. He did it and wasn't punished for it, for whatever reason. They may have been beating him for the wrong reason in this case, assuming DNA clears him, but he's still a sexual predator and shouldn't be out on the streets without doing time first.

[FSTargetDrone]

What the story doesn't mention is that earlier in the week, another individual was also attacked by a mob out for justice, only that time the mob had the wrong guy:

Posted on Fri, Jun. 5, 2009

Beaten man leaves hospital

By DAFNEY TALES
Philadelphia Daily News

talesd@phillynews.com

215-854-5084

The man who was pummeled by Kensington vigilantes for his alleged connection to the rape of an 11-year-old girl was released from the hospital yesterday as new allegations arose that he groped another woman the day he allegedly attacked the girl.

Jose Carrasquillo, 26, was released from Temple University Hospital about noon and taken into police custody at the Special Victims Unit where he was questioned about Monday's assault on the girl and other possible assaults.

Video footage released by police yesterday shows Carrasquillo on Monday walking on Kensington Avenue near Orleans Street alongside the girl and her sister, who was dropped off at a day-care center before the attack.

Police said the 11-year-old was on her way to Russell Conwell Middle School when Carrasquillo threatened to shoot her and then raped her in a nearby back yard.

Just an hour earlier, police say, Carrasquillo entered the cafeteria of Kensington High School for the Creative and Performing Arts - at Cumberland and Coral streets, about a mile from where the 11-year-old was approached - and groped a teenage girl, who later identified him as her attacker.

Authorities have not charged Carrasquillo in either case but say that they linked him through physical evidence to the yard off Westmoreland Street near Emerald, where the rape occurred.

Carrasquillo, being held on a parole violation for a drug conviction, is expected to be placed in protective custody when he is taken to a city prison, a police source said.

Charges will not be filed against those who beat Carrasquillo at Front and Clearfield streets until police intervened, police said.

But Jorge Zenquis, whose son, Michael, was misidentified as the rapist Tuesday and attacked by a mob, said that justice should be served by law enforcement only.

"Street justice, in my opinion, is not a good thing," said Zenquis, a disabled Vietnam veteran.

"They beat and kicked my son, while other people stood over him and said, 'That's what you get for raping little kids!' "

Police confirmed this week that Michael Zenquis was beaten by a group of people who then called 9-1-1. The officials said Zenquis was taken in for questioning and cleared of any connection to the rape case.

"I'm still traumatized," said Michael Zenquis, who plans to press charges against his assailants.

"I was accused of doing something I didn't do. I was embarrassed. They didn't need to take the law into their hands." *

Staff writer David Gambacorta contributed to this report.

Oh yes, they were sure they had the right guy before that. Except they didn't.

[Ryan Thunder]

Oh yes, they were sure they had the right guy before that. Except they didn't.

And that is precisely why we have a courts system that requires evidence of your crimes before you can be punished for them.

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

I think they did the right thing. The SOB deserved every bit of it, but it's not something we want people to get into the habit of.

If they did the right thing, then why don't we want more people getting into the habit of it? I mean, after all, if one 'SOB' deserved every bit of his beating at the hands of uninformed and overzealous bystanders, then shouldn't we be encouraging people to perform more vigilante acts, so we don't miss any bad guys?

Or would you like to do some thinking with your noggin instead of your head? As has already been posted, another mob of would-be vigilantes assaulted the wrong man. One man's rights end where the other guy's nose begins. Sure, someone may be an irredeemable asshole with no potential to contribute to society, but that doesn't give people carte blanche to act towards them like the ape-men from 2001: A Space Odyssey

[Themightytom]

Oh yes, they were sure they had the right guy before that. Except they didn't.

And that is precisely why we have a courts system that requires evidence of your crimes before you can be punished for them.

Well now we know how far is too far if you're WRONG... apparently the area of kennsington street...

[FSTargetDrone]

Or would you like to do some thinking with your noggin instead of your head? As has already been posted, another mob of would-be vigilantes assaulted the wrong man. One man's rights end where the other guy's nose begins. Sure, someone may be an irredeemable asshole with no potential to contribute to society, but that doesn't give people carte blanche to act towards them like the ape-men from 2001: A Space Odyssey

I'm very much interested to know if any of the people who attacked the wrong guy were some of the same people who attacked the right guy. They were, of course, all after the same rapist. I also wonder if any of that FOP reward money finds its way into the hands of such people.

I forgot, as to the OP:

What do you think? Justified beating?

Unjustified, precisely because of the wrong beating, among other reasons.

[SAMAS]

A crime can be both unjustified and understandable at the same time?

[FSTargetDrone]

A crime can be both unjustified and understandable at the same time?

I have no doubt at all that if my partner or a family member or friend was raped, I'd want to gut the rapist with a rusty crowbar. But it's not up to me to mete out judgment. If we leave it to the passions of the public, we will have chaos. Those people who went after Zenquis (the man police later confirmed was not involved) were sure they had the right guy. Except they were wrong. It's damn lucky that Zenquis wasn't beaten so badly that he was crippled. Or worse. I hope he gets a nice fat judgment in his favor.

As far as I'm concerned, the suspected rapist (Carrasquillo), once put on trial, can spend the rest of his life in prison if he's found guilty. But those who beat him (and especially those who beat Zenquis) need to suffer a penalty as well. It is not up to the general public to dispense street justice. If the reports are to be believed, they could have easily held the suspect until the police arrived. Instead, they decided to knock him around before the cops showed up.

And yet, the local FOP decides it's a good idea to reward vigilantism... They might as well make a public statement endorsing it. As long as the public grabs up the right guy, of course. If it's the wrong guy, well, surely they will refrain from supporting that.

[Alyeska]

Thats why you don't freaking beat a suspect. You don't bloody know if they are guilty or not. That entire mob should be charged with assault.

[Dark Flame]

When they beat the wrong guy, which I didn't know when I posted, they were wrong. They were wrong for the simple fact that he was innocent.

In the other case, I've changed my mind a little. It may not have been right, but it was justified and understandable.

The reason other people shouldn't be doing this more often is because of the very good chance they will get the wrong person.

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

In the other case, I've changed my mind a little. It may not have been right, but it was justified and understandable.

It's understandable in the same way we understand why people like to go "HURR HURR HURR I R INTERWEB TOUGH MAN!!!111" i.e. they're idiots. But because an action is understandable does not make it justifiable. It would've been justifiable, maybe, if they'd caught him in the act and he fought to get away and they had to kick the shit out of him to keep him from fleeing. In which case, we can understand a bit of . . . ahem . . . roughness was required to subdue a man who was unquestionably guilty.

What if it turns out that Carrasquillo, while apparently defining the word 'scum', isn't the rapist after all? Would it be justifiable then? Yes, he's scum, but that doesn't give interested laypersons the right to assault him. Even if he's convicted, it still doesn't justify it because the mob did not know he was guilty at the time!

The notion of justice by mob, and the notion of justice by the legal organs of society are mutually exclusive. The only society where the two are one in the same are ones where the suspect is considered guilty until proven otherwise. Those places typically aren't very nice places to live.

[Cairber]

We still don't know if he is going to be charged, but two men involved in the capture/beating have been rewarded:

Two men who captured and beat a suspect in the rape of an 11-year-old girl have received a reward from the Philadelphia Fraternal Order of Police.

FOP president John McNesby awarded $11,500 dollars to Fernando Genaval and David Vargas (pictured above, with McNesby and victim's father).

The men spotted 26-year-old Jose Carrasquillo on a Kensington street, shortly after he was identified as a person of interest in connection with the brutal rape, and used sticks and fists to subdue him while they waited for police.

Carrasquillo had to be hospitalized after the incident. He still has not been charged but remains in police custody.

McNesby says this is the first time the FOP has offered a reward of this kind.

"You look at this and we see crime and sometimes you say to yourself that you get numb to it but I think the numbness disappears when you see the age of this little girl," he said. "The physical injuries will heal but the emotional scars will be with her the rest of her life."

McNesby says Genaval and Vargas donated some of the reward back to the Police Survivors Fund and some to the family of the victim.

The victim's father was on hand when the reward was presented.

http://www.kyw1060.com/FOP-Gives-Reward ... us/4544203

[Dark Flame]

In the other case, I've changed my mind a little. It may not have been right, but it was justified and understandable.

It's understandable in the same way we understand why people like to go "HURR HURR HURR I R INTERWEB TOUGH MAN!!!111" i.e. they're idiots. But because an action is understandable does not make it justifiable. It would've been justifiable, maybe, if they'd caught him in the act and he fought to get away and they had to kick the shit out of him to keep him from fleeing. In which case, we can understand a bit of . . . ahem . . . roughness was required to subdue a man who was unquestionably guilty.

I hope you're not accusing me of being an INTERWEBZ TUFF GUY!!11! Anyways, that's a good point about the differences between being justified and being understandable. It's understandable that emotions ran high, the guy's scum, and the situation got a little out of control. However, since the article says the beating wasn't very severe and that it stopped when the police arrived it shows that the crowd wasn't too out of line.

What if it turns out that Carrasquillo, while apparently defining the word 'scum', isn't the rapist after all? Would it be justifiable then? Yes, he's scum, but that doesn't give interested laypersons the right to assault him. Even if he's convicted, it still doesn't justify it because the mob did not know he was guilty at the time!

Like you said, it would be justifiable if they had caught him in the act or if he had skipped out on bail or ran while on parole or something like that. Since that didn't happen, and since his other charges were dropped, he's legally a free man.