Is RF:G a return to 1993?

[Stark]

RF:G is a lot of things; a 'modern' game it isn't.

The game has an utterly lazy and uninteresting story that has no impact on the game world. It has jury-rigged weapons better than proper weapons, and is full of gimmick weapons. The game is built around a gimmick that you can't fully enjoy because of the ruthless (far moreso than other 'sandbox' games) cops. It has game-breakingly powerful weapons. It has a vast, bland, linear world.

What this suggests to me is that the 'sensibilities' of 'games' have perhaps gone in a circle. In the 90s games weren't really 'for serious', they generally had more 'gamey' elements than 'simulationist' elements, they had fluff-stories that you could ignore and nobody cared about, and they were often built by small teams with little interest in balance or cohesion or complex manners of progression.

That changed for a while, with story-heavy, progressively simulationist, more open, more dynamic games becoming standard. The GTA franchise is a good example of this progression within a single franchise.

RF:G - hype aside - is a very primitive game from a gameplay perspective. It's cursory plot is totally irrelevant and deeply boring. It's sold entirely on a gimmick to the point that you'd have a hard time finding an ad or review that doesn't focus on it.

In short, it's the kind of game I played in my teens; where the play is simple, the story is black&white but invisible, and your progress is linear and reveals increasingly poorly-designed jury-rigged guns with which you destroy increasingly absurd plot points and Bond villains. Is this a sign of the times?

[Darmalus]

What is "RF:G"?

[Stark]

Cripes, good call. 'Red Faction: Gorillaz'. Sorry.

[chitoryu12]

Red Faction: Guerilla.

Personally, I don't find the story overwhelmingly important compared to other aspects of the game. When I play, I expect something fun, damn the bad characters to hell, with at least adequate graphics. And I have to admit that I squee a little when I collapse a multi-story building with a hammer and watch it crush everything it falls on.

[Stark]

That's my point. Jesus people put aside 'i like it' and 'i don't like it'.

It has gimmick guns, geomod 2.. and that's it. It's in game design extremely old-fashioned, thus my comparison to games or yore, and geomod and gimmick guns are THEMSELVES old-fashioned in this sense. It's linear, it's repetitive, it's unsophisticated. This is arguably a step backwards from the recent progression towards more simulationist games.

I have to ask; do you also 'squee' when the fallen building evaporates before your eyes, and is never rebuilt ever even if it's, say, the control tower to an airfield THAT'S OPERATING? Of course not, and nobody cared in 1993 either. Hell, it even uses Havok physics, internationally renowed for sucking, and the 'amazing' building deformation can kill you with a falling drainpipe but have you survive being literally buried in SpaceConcrete. Just like in the 90s.

[Darmalus]

Hmm, what is this, the 3rd or 4th game in the series? It could be that at this point the game is being made simply to milk the brand name, with nothing beyond a quick cash grab in mind.

I doubt the games in the style of your youth ever went away, my guess is that this one managed to slip in by name recognition, rather than any wide shift in game making philosophy.

[Stark]

It's not really a 'series'. It was a game a decade ago, a terribel cash-in sequel, and now they're basically resurrected the brand. The team behind the game has even made more sophisticated and typically 'modern' (in sensibility) games like Saints Row.

Amusingly RF:G even has a worse inventory system than Saints.

[CaptHawkeye]

It has jury-rigged weapons better than proper weapons, and is full of gimmick weapons.

This shit. Right here. It's become a pet-peeve of mine in gameplay design. Especially when nerds claim that the game's jury rigged weapons are "zomg original non conventional weapon design" hint: EVERY game a nail gun, crossbow, proton pack, etc shit these days. It's not original design anymore.

Besides that, i've always hated them. People can bitch all they want about guns and rawket launchers being "typical" or "lazy design" in an action game. Well I guess real life is lazily designed too then. Their is a reason the US Army hands out M-16s and not dart launchers.

Edit: What i'm trying to get at here, is that guns exist for a reason. IE: They're better than any non-conventional slug projector or such. So when a "lololololtehfuture" game tries to pass off what's essentially a MEDIEVAL gun as futuristic, it kind of annoys me.

[Stark]

That's a big part of what led me to this idea; late-game 'gimmick' 'jury rigged' guns is VERY early 90s, even late 90s (look at Half Life ffs). In the early 21st century it moved to more 'edgy' simulationist 'eight thousand sub machine guns', but it seems to be moving back the other way again.

Just like linear -open - and back, rigid story - sandbox and back, etc. If it happens more (and frankly the story focus and no coop of Prototype suggests it will) it's quite interesting to spot the Alien Swarm and Quake level decisions being made.

[CaptHawkeye]

What's really funny is just that you don't even need "teh leet spear guns lol" for your game to have "good weapon design". If you have lots of variety in your weapon classes and lots of interaction WITH the guns beyond "press right trigger" that counts as good gunplay design. ONE type of SMG is disappointing, but suppose you have 4 types of SMG? Each with their own unique characteristics? What about modding them? Fire modes? THAT makes the gunplay way more interesting. Just look at how popular Call of Duty 4 is for this kind of design.

But no, someone on the design team was just unable to believe their were games out there other than Quake.

[Stark]

That can never work, because guns only have attributes of ROF, conefire and damage.

Right?

[CaptHawkeye]

As long as developers keep thinking "walk forwards = +15 degrees of dispersion" is realistic I think we're in for the long haul with these so called "innovations".

[General Zod]

I just tried out the demo for this and I can't help but feel. . .I dunno, underwhelmed. The destructible environments were mildly amusing (even though TFU was superior for this), but trying to use a gun at all was an exercise in frustration and the HUD was a bit dodgy for me. Why is this game supposed to be fun again?

[Stark]

That's something I thought after playing too; Force Unleashed had deformable stuff (not much, but it worked in principle) whereas everything in RF:G just 'shatters' like it's made of bonded tissue paper. The cars 'deform', but in the same way GTA cars do. Nothing bends, just snaps; it makes the physics easier but it's really pretty lame.

[Executor32]

Now, now, Strak, it's not nice to lump GTA in with the likes of RF. In GTAIV the cars actually do deform based on where and how hard they're hit, rather than just 'lol you hit fence now bumper is fall off' like every other 3D game in the series. I remember playing the first RF and making tunnels like I was a goddamn mole rat, then playing the second one and wondering why all of a sudden every wall was made of unobtanium like every other generic FPS. Now this one is the same way, but they added destructible construction-paper buildings to give the illusion of progression.

[Oskuro]

Cripes, good call. 'Red Faction: Gorillaz'. Sorry.

Aw, I thought it was Rampage Fandom: Godzilla

[Stark]

Well I generally refer to the game as 'bed fashions', but that's because I swapped cattlestations for it.

[Ford Prefect]

Force Unleashed had deformable stuff (not much, but it worked in principle)

It's actually interesting to fiddle around with telekinesis and the doors. While basically every time you blow open a door or shatter the Wookie gate, it generally looks the same. However, you can still further bend stuff, and it will bend in different ways (though not many other ways, because there aren't all that many different permutations of telekinesis available). They didn't really follow through on Digital Molecular Matter, so it doesn't hugely influence the game, but can you imagine if it had RF:G's Geomod in it? The game would feel really primitive in comparison.

[Oskuro]

Why don't they invest all this destructible-buildings technology into, I don't know, a superhero game? You know, like City of Heroes, but with actual fun gameplay. Or Godzilla Online, I wouldn't mind. GTA:Metropolis? GTA:Gotham City? GTA:GTFO?

[Chardok]

This is shocking to me as well - It's clearly not insanely hard to do, or to model - look at Mercenaries. How much fun was it to just walk around levelling things just because you could, and the cops didn't magically know it was you who did it, and they certainly didn't sic the entire North Korean Army on you with their magical guns of "If I pull the trigger I do not miss-ness"

That said - I think STRAK may be on to something - (RE games being gimmicky) RF:G was sold by ZOMG GEOMODROFLWIN, CoD is sold by ZOMGTEHUPGRADEZZZZZ IN MULTIPLAYER, inFAMOUS was sold by ZOMG IT ARE SUPERHERO GTA Spore was sold by ZOMG U = GOD.

You know what sold me on Saint's Row 2 (To stick with the Volition example)? Accident. I never once thought to pick up this game. I didn't care about it. "Oh look," I thought. "Another zoh my god gangsta game. pass." I rented EVERYTHING BUT Saint's Row.

Whoops.

Saint's Row 2 was awesome, who knew? it had all the things I like about games, a main character I was invested in and cared about, a story that was easy to follow, and awesome in it's ridiculousness, and gameplay that was just stupid amounts of fun. It did not pawn itself off as "lol emo balkan dude just trying to get by in amerikkka ITS ABOUT THE STORY AND KILLING HOOKERS, LOL" and it wasn't trying to be ZOMG MUST GET HALO FANGIRLS! It was just, like, Volition got together in a room and said "Okay, let's make a game that's just fun. No pretentious garbage, no uppity elitism, no fanservice, and no gimmicks. What do you got?"

We got a ridiculous open-world sandbox game that had you as the main character, going around taking over drug cartels, extorting businesses, beheading people with a katana, annnnd....

Stealing Cobra Gunships to fly CAS for a drug delivery van
Spraying poo from a pootruck all over the city
posing as a cop and beating the crap out of people/chainsawing them/blowing them up - FOR A TV SHOW

and picking up "Kill this guy" Missions from a bulletin board that ANYONE CAN READ. This in particular would normally make me roll my eyes, but in the context of the rest of the game, which is just a bunch of silly awesomeness, it makes perfect sense. It doesn't take itself seriously, and it's a better game for it.

Yeah...too much gimmick, not enough...what is the word? Oh yeah, Gameplay.

[SAMAS]

The game has an utterly lazy and uninteresting story that has no impact on the game world. It has jury-rigged weapons better than proper weapons, and is full of gimmick weapons.

Didn't you just contradict yourself there? IIRC, the story is about a Miner's revolt. So it stands to reason that their weapons are going to be improvised. You don't give guns to mine workers. Especially ones you oppress to the point that they rise up in armed revolt.

Now I haven't played the game, but if the game doesn't let you use the weapons of fallen enemies, that's a valid complaint.

[Chardok]

He's saying that the fact that the ULTRA MELT-RIFLE OF DOOMWIN is a collection of off-the-shelf electronics and a piece of wank-tach glued on it that is better than every single weapon in the game, and a hip-fired RPG-7 made out of a length of pipe and a sewing needle is better than every single weapon the military dudes run around with is frickin' stupid.

[SAMAS]

Why don't they invest all this destructible-buildings technology into, I don't know, a superhero game? You know, like City of Heroes, but with actual fun gameplay. Or Godzilla Online, I wouldn't mind. GTA:Metropolis? GTA:Gotham City? GTA:GTFO?

Because sadly, nobody has approached them to buy the engine.

[SAMAS]

He's saying that the fact that the ULTRA MELT-RIFLE OF DOOMWIN is a collection of off-the-shelf electronics and a piece of wank-tach glued on it that is better than every single weapon in the game, and a hip-fired RPG-7 made out of a length of pipe and a sewing needle is better than every single weapon the military dudes run around with is frickin' stupid.

Not necessarily. It all depends (in-universe) on contracts and technology. After all their stuff was made, as the saying goes, by the lowest bidder. On the other hand, we're talking about industrial grade equipment made to do very different things. Watching a few episodes of Modern Marvels will tell you that heavy equipment has a lot of power behind it.

Although there could have been more balance. Maybe in accuracy or reliability. But I don't think they were going for realism there.

[Chardok]

Not necessarily. It all depends (in-universe) on contracts and technology. After all their stuff was made, as the saying goes, by the lowest bidder. On the other hand, we're talking about industrial grade equipment made to do very different things. Watching a few episodes of Modern Marvels will tell you that heavy equipment has a lot of power behind it.

Although there could have been more balance. Maybe in accuracy or reliability. But I don't think they were going for realism there.

Umm....yeah, construction equipment isn't built by the lowest bidder at all. Also the very fact that they ARE made to do very different things is why making a rocket launcher out of a jackhammer is stupid. Frankly, it would've been a more interesting dynamic if you were forced to collect weapons and ammo off of fallen EDF soldiers to add to the base stockpile, which you could draw on at a later time - then you could prioritize what weapons/ammo you take (Like Fallout 3, except you cannot carry your ammo around with you) instead of a bunch of IWIN weapons you get by using infinite money cheats.