Tiananmen 20th anniversary brings new repression

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Tiananmen 20th anniversary brings new repression

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Here.
BEIJING – China aggressively deterred dissent in the capital on Thursday's 20th anniversary of the crackdown on democracy activists in Tiananmen Square. But tens of thousands turned out for a candlelight vigil in Hong Kong to mourn the hundreds, possibly thousands, of demonstrators killed.

The central government ignored calls from U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton and even Taiwan's China-friendly president for Beijing to face up to the 1989 violence.

In Beijing, foreign journalists were barred from the vast square as uniformed and plainclothes police stood guard across the area, which was the epicenter of the student-led movement that was crushed by the military on the night of June 3-4, 1989.

Security officials checking passports blocked foreign TV camera operators and photographers from entering the square to cover the raising of China's national flag, which happens at dawn every day. Plainclothes officers confronted journalists on the streets surrounding the square, cursing and threatening violence against them.

Tourists were allowed in Tiananmen as usual, though security officials — paramilitary, police and plainclothes officers — appeared to outnumber the visitors.

The repression on the mainland contrasted starkly with Hong Kong, where tens of thousands of people bearing white candles chanted slogans calling for China to own up to the crackdown and release political dissidents. It was the largest commemoration on Chinese soil.

Organizers estimated the crowd at 150,000 — the largest rally since the first anniversary vigil in 1990 — while police put the number at 62,800.

"It is the dream of all Chinese people to have democracy!" the crowd gathered in Hong Kong's famous Victoria Park sang in unison.

A former British colony, the territory has retained its own legal system and open society since reverting to Chinese rule in 1997. Those killed in the violence were eulogized as heroes of the push for democracy in China, their names read aloud before the crowd observed a minute of silence in their memory.

"It's time for China to take responsibility for the killings," said Kin Cheung, a 17-year-old Hong Kong student. "They need to tell the truth."

On the mainland, government censors shut down social networking and image-sharing Web sites such as Twitter and Flickr and blacked out CNN and other foreign news channels each time they aired stories about Tiananmen.

Dissidents and families of crackdown victims were confined to their homes or forced to leave Beijing, part of sweeping efforts to prevent online debate or organized commemorations of the anniversary.

"We've been under 24-hour surveillance for a week and aren't able to leave home to mourn. It's totally inhuman," said Xu Jue, whose son was 22 when he was shot in the chest by soldiers and bled to death on June 4, 1989.

Officers and police cars were also stationed outside the home of Wang Yannan, the daughter of Zhao Ziyang, the Communist Party leader deposed for sympathizing with the pro-democracy protesters, according to the Hong Kong-based Information Center for Human Rights and Democracy. Wang heads an auction firm and has never been politically active.

In Hong Kong, tape recordings of Zhao recalling the violence of Tiananmen, used for his recently released posthumous memoir, were played during the rally.

In a further sign of the government's intransigence, the second most-wanted student leader from 1989 was forced to return to Taiwan on Thursday after flying to the Chinese territory of Macau the day before in an attempt to return home.

Wu'er Kaixi, in exile since fleeing China after the crackdown, told The Associated Press by phone he was held overnight at the Macau airport's detention center and that being denied entry on the Tiananmen anniversary was a "tragedy."

The student leader who topped the most-wanted list, Wang Dan, was jailed for seven years before being expelled to the United States in 1998.

In Washington, U.S. Secretary of State Clinton said in a statement Wednesday that China, as an emerging global power, "should examine openly the darker events of its past and provide a public accounting of those killed, detained or missing, both to learn and to heal."

Taiwanese President Ma Ying-jeou urged China to lift the taboo on discussing the crackdown.

"This painful chapter in history must be faced. Pretending it never happened is not an option," Ma said in a statement issued Thursday.

Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Qin Gang attacked Clinton's comments as a "gross interference in China's internal affairs."

"We urge the U.S. to put aside its political prejudice and correct its wrongdoing and refrain from disrupting or undermining bilateral relations," Qin said in response to a question at a regularly scheduled news briefing. Qin refused to comment on the security measures — or even acknowledge they were in place.

"Today is like any other day, stable," he said.

Beijing has never allowed an independent investigation into the military's crushing of the protests, in which possibly thousands of students, activists and ordinary citizens were killed. Young Chinese know little about the events, having grown up in a generation that has largely eschewed politics in favor of raw nationalism, wealth acquisition and individual pursuits.

Authorities tightened surveillance of China's dissident community ahead of the anniversary, with some leading writers under close watch or house arrest for months.
Absolute disgrace.
"We urge the U.S. to put aside its political prejudice and correct its wrongdoing and refrain from disrupting or undermining bilateral relations," Qin said in response to a question at a regularly scheduled news briefing. Qin refused to comment on the security measures — or even acknowledge they were in place.
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Re: Tiananmen 20th anniversary brings new repression

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Trying to pretend it never happen is dumb, given the fact that anyone in the younger generation of Chinese who are interested in politics will be aware of what has happened. Sure, they don't know the exact details, but they have a rough idea that the government tries to suppress a student movement back in 1989.

Of course, it will be more useful if the CCP tries to paint the Tiananment incident as a necessarily thing to do as the government than covering it up. Moreover, given the fact that how patriotic the current generation of students are, and how they are willingly to defend the CCP, I bet most of them would even defend the government's actions in 1989.

If anything, the CCP has more to benefit by allowing people to talk about the incident now than denying the fact that it has never happened. It's not like we will see something on the scale of the Tiananmen incident again, given the fact that the urban students standard of living is not even comparable to the students in 1989, where a peasant earned more than a person holding a degree.

Hell, the CCP don't even need to resort to tanks in order to disperse a crowd, when they have decent amount of riot gear this time around. Although most western media would still judge things by a different standard, where they can view the dispersal and arrest of a student protest in France as acceptable, but unacceptable just because the Chinese are doing it.
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Re: Tiananmen 20th anniversary brings new repression

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Honestly, how long is it going to take? Will the fifty year anniversary still be a locked-down date? Do they honestly fear societal upheaval if the concede that they were wrong about this one thing?
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Re: Tiananmen 20th anniversary brings new repression

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ray245 wrote:Moreover, given the fact that how patriotic the current generation of students are, and how they are willingly to defend the CCP, I bet most of them would even defend the government's actions in 1989.
According to "Zhongguo Bu Gaoxing", many nationalistic people in China are dissatisfied with the Government not because it opressed someone (they offer the example of USSR collapsing because no one wanted to use force to keep it in order), but dissatisfied because the Government is not standing up to the First World more agressively.
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Re: Tiananmen 20th anniversary brings new repression

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The continued denial of all of this and the ongoing repression of any dissent is one of the reasons why I'm fucking happy that the ChinAlco deal in Australia fell through and a reason why I am super-pissed at Rudd for on-selling so much debt to them. They should in reality be as much of a Pariah state as the NorKs, but aren't because they suckered everyone in with cheap fucking toys.
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Re: Tiananmen 20th anniversary brings new repression

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weemadando wrote:They should in reality be as much of a Pariah state as the NorKs
Why? The DPRK actually isn't "forced" to be a pariah state - it isolated itself (even from it's communist partners in pre-1990s times!), so that's it's own choice. China chose not to isolate. It can't be a pariah state, much less "should be".

What is good from making someone a pariah state? You are hindering their economic development, you give their government a foreign scapegoat to blame for all woes, you keep them constantly undeveloped, primitive and poor. And you think the policy of "pariah states" won't backfire later?

On the other hand, nations which industrialize and have more ties with the world develop more solid human rights codes, which is what really matters - China's human rights code today, I would say, is quite an achievement and a long way even from 1989, much less 1949 when the PRC was first founded. It's rights code today is superior to that of the late USSR, and they are trying to make things better.

Before you start laughing - the late Soviet or modern (post-1970s) Chinese rights code is something that 60-70% of people in the world probably would dream to have, but they cannot for the simple primitive condition in their nations.
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Re: Tiananmen 20th anniversary brings new repression

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How the hell would making China a pariah state help anybody, may I ask? You act as though the Chinese government is doing jack shit towards helping its population, when they're developing the country, providing villages with electricity, improving access to education and are in the first stages of implementing a universal healthcare system.

And for all your talk of repression, it's not the fucking Chinese who have 2 million people in prison, now is it.


Now, I'm not saying that the CCP is perfect, but comparing them to North Korea is the most ridiculous pile of crap that I have heard today, and I have just been browsing fundamentalist message boards.

EDIT: China actually does have better human rights than before. Apparently some people are pissed of that they aren't changing to the western ideal instantly.
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Re: Tiananmen 20th anniversary brings new repression

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Heh, I see I'm not alone in thinking that comparing China with DPRK is utter horseshit.
Lusankya wrote:And for all your talk of repression, it's not the fucking Chinese who have 2 million people in prison, now is it.
The US prison complex is a real disgrace - if China had the same per capita incarceration rates, they'd easily incarcerate the population of a medium-sized nation.
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Re: Tiananmen 20th anniversary brings new repression

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Lusankya wrote:How the hell would making China a pariah state help anybody, may I ask?
The answer to your question is RAR RAR internet tough guy RAR.

Jokes aside we already have job losses in the mining sector in WA and Qld simply because China is buying less of our stuff. Lets not sell anything to them and let the economy take an even bigger hit. Does any one think this through when they say lets make them a pariah state?

As for the deal with Chinalco, it collapsed for commerial reasons with Rio Tinto wanting to change the terms to reflect better economic conditions. Chinalco disagreed. Not that Chinalco would have a controlling hand any way with OMG 18% shares. Yeah, we are really handing over our mineral interests to a military dictatorship (that stupid commercial couldn't even get that fact right. At least realise that China's last few leaders have been civilians, most of them technocrats and that they change their leaders every 8 years or so, which kind of makes it hard for a dictator to set up shop).
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Re: Tiananmen 20th anniversary brings new repression

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I think people get blinded by certain kinds of injustice because it happens all the time in their countries. Lock people up for smoking a joint? Life for stealing a toolbox? Making the city a dry zone instead of dealing with minority issues? Holding some Indian guy indefinitely without charge because he lent a SIM card to his cousin? Well, that's bad, but it's the civilised way to do things.

The Chinese actions are even partly justified. Not to the extent that they're doing it, but if a Western nation were to increase security in relation to a G20 summit, nobody would be looking twice.
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Re: Tiananmen 20th anniversary brings new repression

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I guess I'm just super-pissy about China because they seem to have a free reign to act however they want because of their massive economic clout. Do I like it? No. Do I accept it because that's the way economics, politics and the real world interact? Of course I fucking do. It doesn't mean that I give them a clean slate for the murder of thousands of their citizens who took part in a protest.
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Re: Tiananmen 20th anniversary brings new repression

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weemadando wrote:I guess I'm just super-pissy about China because they seem to have a free reign to act however they want because of their massive economic clout. Do I like it? No. Do I accept it because that's the way economics, politics and the real world interact? Of course I fucking do. It doesn't mean that I give them a clean slate for the murder of thousands of their citizens who took part in a protest.
Well it is debatable that the lack of inaction could led to something like the fall of USSR, where 50 percent of the people fall below the poverty line.

Of course, those student's action did cause tons of CCP's liberals to be kicked out of the party and locked up.
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Re: Tiananmen 20th anniversary brings new repression

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weemadando wrote:I guess I'm just super-pissy about China because they seem to have a free reign to act however they want because of their massive economic clout. Do I like it? No. Do I accept it because that's the way economics, politics and the real world interact? Of course I fucking do. It doesn't mean that I give them a clean slate for the murder of thousands of their citizens who took part in a protest.
The same can be said about any other nation on Earth that has disproportionate economic, political, and militaristic influence over the rest of the world. At least China can't extend the worst of its clout overseas to, say, ruin already ruined foreign nations while trumpeting to itself about how awesome it is and how this is not blasphemy or madness, but SPARTAFREEDOMERICA.

Compared to Spartafreedomerica's adverse effects on regions like the Middle East, China is fucking benign.
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Re: Tiananmen 20th anniversary brings new repression

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mr friendly guy wrote: Jokes aside we already have job losses in the mining sector in WA and Qld simply because China is buying less of our stuff. Lets not sell anything to them and let the economy take an even bigger hit. Does any one think this through when they say lets make them a pariah state?
Anyone in Australia who bitches about Asia getting too much economic clout is an absolute moron, given that China, Japan, and Korea account for over $51 billion worth of exports (about 1/3 of all exports) and that the only non-Asian countries amongst our top ten export partners are the US, the UK and New Zealand. China getting bigger actually benefits Australia.
weemadando wrote:I guess I'm just super-pissy about China because they seem to have a free reign to act however they want because of their massive economic clout. Do I like it? No. Do I accept it because that's the way economics, politics and the real world interact? Of course I fucking do. It doesn't mean that I give them a clean slate for the murder of thousands of their citizens who took part in a protest.
China has about 20% of the world's population. Why shouldn't they have about 20% of the clout? S

PS. You live in a country with less than 0.3% of the world's population, yet you have the world's sixth most traded currency, 1.1% of world GDP and your country headed the effort to keep Japan out of the league of nations. Why are you bitching about China acting however they want because of their economic clout again? Is it just because they have more people than Australia, because if that's all it is, then here's a smiley of the world's smallest violin for you:
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Re: Tiananmen 20th anniversary brings new repression

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China is a undemocratic country with little freedom to even think. Over there you can not even talk in a free manner about a massacre that took place 20 years ago much less seek justice for the innocents murdered by the governtment. What kind of a person likes such a state to have the economic power to bend other countries to their will ?
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Re: Tiananmen 20th anniversary brings new repression

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Sarevok wrote:Over there you can not even talk in a free manner about a massacre that took place 20 years ago much less seek justice for the innocents murdered by the governtment.
Neither can we talk over here about the 1993 massacre - at least openly, and much less demand "justice" from the government for the people murdered by the government.

But we, and the Chinese as well, sure as hell have "freedom to think".

Any gatherings here get broken up swiftly, and attempts to publish, say, anti-current government music or texts in any somewhat significant media outlet will lead to immediate censorship.
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Re: Tiananmen 20th anniversary brings new repression

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Sarevok wrote:China is a undemocratic country with little freedom to even think. Over there you can not even talk in a free manner about a massacre that took place 20 years ago much less seek justice for the innocents murdered by the governtment. What kind of a person likes such a state to have the economic power to bend other countries to their will ?
Same can be said to a nation that only pass out civil rights in the 1960s, while bending other nations to their will. The only alternative is to ensure that nation in question is able to become more liberal as their economic prosperity rises.
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Re: Tiananmen 20th anniversary brings new repression

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Sarevok wrote:What kind of a person likes such a state to have the economic power to bend other countries to their will ?
Nobody liked the US to behave the way they do, but so?
Young Chinese know little about the events, having grown up in a generation that has largely eschewed politics in favor of raw nationalism, wealth acquisition and individual pursuits.
I don't see any difference from their peers in other nations, and are they trying to criticize China for being "westernized"?
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Re: Tiananmen 20th anniversary brings new repression

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Lusankya wrote:How the hell would making China a pariah state help anybody, may I ask? You act as though the Chinese government is doing jack shit towards helping its population, when they're developing the country, providing villages with electricity, improving access to education and are in the first stages of implementing a universal healthcare system.

And for all your talk of repression, it's not the fucking Chinese who have 2 million people in prison, now is it.
China has less people in prison than the US? How is that possible- they have 4 times as many people :wtf:
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Re: Tiananmen 20th anniversary brings new repression

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ray245 wrote: Same can be said to a nation that only pass out civil rights in the 1960s, while bending other nations to their will. The only alternative is to ensure that nation in question is able to become more liberal as their economic prosperity rises.
Tu quoque is a shit argument ray.
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Re: Tiananmen 20th anniversary brings new repression

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Samuel wrote:
Lusankya wrote:How the hell would making China a pariah state help anybody, may I ask? You act as though the Chinese government is doing jack shit towards helping its population, when they're developing the country, providing villages with electricity, improving access to education and are in the first stages of implementing a universal healthcare system.

And for all your talk of repression, it's not the fucking Chinese who have 2 million people in prison, now is it.
China has less people in prison than the US? How is that possible- they have 4 times as many people :wtf:
This... this is ridiculous. But apparently its true. :wtf:

According to the UK, anyway (PDF warning). It is worth noting, however, that China ranks 14th in the world for public executions per capita, according to this. The United States doesn't even make the top 30.
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Re: Tiananmen 20th anniversary brings new repression

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Samuel wrote:
Lusankya wrote:How the hell would making China a pariah state help anybody, may I ask? You act as though the Chinese government is doing jack shit towards helping its population, when they're developing the country, providing villages with electricity, improving access to education and are in the first stages of implementing a universal healthcare system.

And for all your talk of repression, it's not the fucking Chinese who have 2 million people in prison, now is it.
China has less people in prison than the US? How is that possible- they have 4 times as many people :wtf:
Simple. The United States has a vastly greater fraction of its population in prison (686 per 100,000) than any other nation on Earth. Only Russia and the Cayman Islands have per-capita prison populations that even come close to that of the United States. Even Iran, bastion of freedom that it is, has a mere 229 per 100,000 of its people imprisoned. Myanmar? 118 per 100,000. China only has 111 per 100,000 of its people in prison. Yes, China has far more people than the US. But, even when you consider that and start talking absolute numbers, they have half a million fewer people in prison than the United States does (1.4 million versus 1.9 million.)
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Re: Tiananmen 20th anniversary brings new repression

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This... this is ridiculous. But apparently its true.
By official Chinese government figures anyway. Would anyone know how reliable those figures are, since I'm obviously not willing to take what the Chinese government says at face value. Then again, I'm also suspicious of 16-20 million figure put forth by some activists like Harry Wu, for the obvious reason that they have an axe to grind.
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Re: Tiananmen 20th anniversary brings new repression

Post by K. A. Pital »

Ma Deuce wrote:Would anyone know how reliable those figures are, since I'm obviously not willing to take what the Chinese government says at face value.
They may be pretty reliable, but we don't have internal statistics don't we? As far as I know, modern US and modern Russia are the only nations, off-hands, which I know that have a prison population both in absolute and relative numbers approaching the number of incarcerated in Stalinist USSR penal system, which is a pretty damning indictment and a good indication of something very wrong...
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Re: Tiananmen 20th anniversary brings new repression

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hongi wrote:
ray245 wrote: Same can be said to a nation that only pass out civil rights in the 1960s, while bending other nations to their will. The only alternative is to ensure that nation in question is able to become more liberal as their economic prosperity rises.
Tu quoque is a shit argument ray.
The point remains, that you are applying a double standard if you say a nation like the US can have a right to do so while other nation can't. I'm not asking you to support China's actions in terms of expanding their foreign influence or anything like that. I'm just saying there is no point in making a distinction between a democratic or a non-democratic nation expanding their foreign influence.

I mean so what if the nation that seeks to bend other nations to its will is democratic? A democratic nation like the US did support certain oppressive regime as well.
Humans are such funny creatures. We are selfish about selflessness, yet we can love something so much that we can hate something.
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