[WH40K] What should make it into the new army books?

[SAMAS]

What I would like to see?

Okay, for the Tau, probably have the vehicular Multi-Tracker and Target Lock restore the Hammerhead to it's former glory.

More Drones. They did pretty nice with the suits last time, time for the drones to get more love.

Specifically, I'd like to see something like the option to put Shield Drones on a skimmer and let it use their shield together. I'd also like something like a unit with two Shield Drones gets an invulnerable save (maybe with a restriction such as having to stand still that turn). Flamer and Demolition Drones would also be nice.

Back to suits: Bite the bullet and adapt the Forgeworld variation to the Broadsides. Also, let Commanders have he option of using XV-22s.


Sisters of Battle/Witchhunters:
Do something about the Sisters Repentia. I think the running rule helps them alot, but maybe count them as granting extra Faith by their Penance when the unit is wiped out.

[Ryan Thunder]

You want THAT for standard troops? And how do you want to make Necrons that bad in close combat if they are supposed to be though? Besides, Tau are not that bad in close combat - they are equal to Imperial Guard against most enemies, AND have better armor.

Fire Warriors are feeble combatants in melee. Sure, their armour might mean that a Guardsman is as likely to kill a Shas'la as the reverse, but their low initiative means the Guardsmen get to remove casualties before the Tau can hit back. And they simply do not have close combat weapons. At all.

Just keep Necron warriors as they are, and give them (optional) "slow and steady" - then they can advance and shoot, but will be a bit slower. It even makes sense fluff-wise, some necrons have better reactions than others and vice-versa.

Make the warriors Relentless, perhaps, then say they can't Run? Call it "Implacable" or something. Then make them Stubborn.

Besides, Feel no pain, while looking SIMILAR to well be back (an additional 4+ ward save), it works quite differently.
You take an "Feel no pain" save before you die, which is quite important for moral reasons both in ranged and close combat, "well be back" works AFTER you died, which wont prevent you squad from running.
"Well be back" should work like this: Against everything that is not an energy weapon, DS 1 or 2 or Strenght=2xT (same as feel no pain), you can come back at the end of the turn (whether its your or the enemies turn) on a 4+. No joining other squads, no need to be within 6'' of an equak unit. Et voila, a nice, simple, but still slightly different rule.

That sounds good, but personally, I'd just roll it into the Necron rule with something like; "Models with a Toughness characteristic that have the Necron special rule and are in the same unit as another model with the Necron special rule benefit from the Feel No Pain universal special rule."

Feel No Pain is better than We'll Be Back (since it lets them get back up immediately if they pass the save), but it gets the point across and is less confusing than having to explain the whole thing all over again due to having to do it at the end of the turn. Yeah, it might be easy enough to understand how it works, but it seems to me that actually putting it on paper will just result in a complicated explanation that will probably just confuse people.

The Resurrection Orb could give them a 4+ invulnerable save in addition to that, which would have the same effect as forcing the Feel No Pain roll to be made even if the model was killed by a power weapon.

I quite like the idea of changing Living Metal to a simple 4+ invulnerable save.

5th Edition codices are fine. Its not that hard to memorise special rules, most of them are quite simple. And its WAY better than looking into the armory all the time. Besides, its easier to have different point costs for the same equipment for different models now (which is not unimportant).
And EVERY new Codex EVER invalidated some things. And its not really that inconsistient if two models in two different squads can not have the same equipment - they fullfill different roles, after all.

Just to echo this; the new equipment system makes perfect sense. It's all laid right out in front of you. You only need to go look at the rules if you don't know what something does. Once you become familiar with your rules, it's actually quite convenient. The trouble is in the way they split the rules and weapon characteristics up between the "fluff" entries and the "armoury" entries. Seriously, I don't want to have to flip to page 52 to find out about that Exterminator Autocannon. Would it really be so hard to just print it here insted of there?

[Raxmei]

A crazy idea I had for Tau a while ago was changing the pulse rifle and pulse carbine to assault 1 and 2, respectively. Make the Devilfish a Fast skimmer too. It's basically a buff to the basic troops and mechanization, which GW seems to be keen on lately, and reinforces the idea that the Tau are supposed to be mobile. And even the Guard have fast skimmers now.

We also got a bunch of brand new ancient tank designs. Just pretend they've been around all along.

I was under the impression that you technically weren't allowed to use them before.

Some of the tanks were in Forgeworld before, and whether you could use them in any particular place varied. Some tournaments disallowed them, but you could almost always use them in casual play. The Vanquisher, Exterminator, and Griffon were in the 3rd edition codex, left out of the 4th edition codex but retained in Forgeworld, and returned in the new one. The Exterminator, Manticore, Medusa, Valkyrie, and Hydra were Forgeworld inventions. Others such as the Collossus, Punisher, Eradicator, Devil Dog, Bane Wolf, and Vendetta have never been mentioned anywhere before the new codex. The Collossus in particular stuck out in my mind, since a vehicle that has never been mentioned before and for which no model exists is now described as one of the Imperium's most ancient and renowned artillery pieces. It's also a mortar with a longer minimum range than an ICBM.

[white_rabbit]

The Collossus in particular stuck out in my mind, since a vehicle that has never been mentioned before and for which no model exists is now described as one of the Imperium's most ancient and renowned artillery pieces. It's also a mortar with a longer minimum range than an ICBM.

The collossus is basically GW deciding they either couldn't be arsed, or couldn't justify the cost of producing the Bombard hull design in plastic.

Thats all, I doubt they'll even make a kit, and if they do, it'll look as stupid as the Collossus picture does.

Manticore

Erm, the new Manticore design might have been, but the Manticore itself existed long before forgeworld.

[Serafina]

A crazy idea I had for Tau a while ago was changing the pulse rifle and pulse carbine to assault 1 and 2, respectively. Make the Devilfish a Fast skimmer too. It's basically a buff to the basic troops and mechanization, which GW seems to be keen on lately, and reinforces the idea that the Tau are supposed to be mobile. And even the Guard have fast skimmers now.

We also got a bunch of brand new ancient tank designs. Just pretend they've been around all along.

I was under the impression that you technically weren't allowed to use them before.

Some of the tanks were in Forgeworld before, and whether you could use them in any particular place varied. Some tournaments disallowed them, but you could almost always use them in casual play. The Vanquisher, Exterminator, and Griffon were in the 3rd edition codex, left out of the 4th edition codex but retained in Forgeworld, and returned in the new one. The Exterminator, Manticore, Medusa, Valkyrie, and Hydra were Forgeworld inventions. Others such as the Collossus, Punisher, Eradicator, Devil Dog, Bane Wolf, and Vendetta have never been mentioned anywhere before the new codex. The Collossus in particular stuck out in my mind, since a vehicle that has never been mentioned before and for which no model exists is now described as one of the Imperium's most ancient and renowned artillery pieces. It's also a mortar with a longer minimum range than an ICBM.

Making the Tau more mobile: A definate YES. Having Fire Warriors with 30'', S5 P5 Assault 1 rifles : NO
Then they could stay out of the range of EVERY non-heavy squad weapon and return fire with impunity. Giving them an dedicated transport is a better idea: This will allow them to stay at range and move out if necessary. A simple, lightly armed skimmer with medium armor for around 80/90 points would fit that role (just a cheaper, slightly modified ddevilfish).

I also do not think that Tau tanks should be fast skimmers. Fast skimmers behave similar to choppers, and Tau tanks do not do that, fluffwise. Allowing some of them (transports) 18'' of movement by special rule is a good idea, but i do not want them to be equal to Valkyries or Eldar vehicles. Of course, GW could introduce a new Tau vehicle that works like them, but it should be NEW, then.

And the only new vehicles in the new Imperial Guard codex are the Eredicator (the one with the heavy 20 weapon), the Vendetta and the Bane Wolf - everything else either had a fluff mention, existed as a forge world model or in Epic40K.

[Raxmei]

Making the Tau more mobile: A definate YES. Having Fire Warriors with 30'', S5 P5 Assault 1 rifles : NO
Then they could stay out of the range of EVERY non-heavy squad weapon and return fire with impunity.

Someone bringing nothing but short ranged infantry to the table against Tau is going to have problems anyway. Still, the Run rule would allow even infantry to close the gap, and if all else fails you can't fall back indefinitely on a 40k board. You'd also fail at objectives if you tried this.

Heck 30" is only 6" longer than a snazzgun, gauss blaster, or stormbolter. Big Shootas are S5 Ap5 Assault3 36". If you can move and fire 24" you can chase Tau across the board while returning fire.

Giving them an dedicated transport is a better idea: This will allow them to stay at range and move out if necessary. A simple, lightly armed skimmer with medium armor for around 80/90 points would fit that role (just a cheaper, slightly modified ddevilfish).

Fire warriors can already buy Devilfish as a dedicated transport and it already costs 80 points. Did you mean to say something else?

I also do not think that Tau tanks should be fast skimmers. Fast skimmers behave similar to choppers, and Tau tanks do not do that, fluffwise. Allowing some of them (transports) 18'' of movement by special rule is a good idea, but i do not want them to be equal to Valkyries or Eldar vehicles. Of course, GW could introduce a new Tau vehicle that works like them, but it should be NEW, then.

Fair enough to think that way.

[Serafina]

I admit, i did not know the current point-costs of a devilfish.

However, i still think that you can not just make puls rifles assault weapons (at least not without an insignificant range reduction).
Its not only inconsistient with fluff, but also for game balance reasons:
-It will allow Tau to stay out of the range of most weapons. While most heavy weapons are still able to hit them, NO basic infantry weapon will be able to do so.
-They could also delay the arrival of enemy close-combat troops by 2-3 turns, happily blazing away while doing so.
-It would allow for a "double-hit assault" when the enemy is close enough: Shoot, then assault. While Tau are not the best close combat troops, they will still do damage with that (20 S3 attacks) - and its free and better than being assaulted yourself.
-They could advance at enemy positions AND shoot, which is an huge advantage.
-Thus, it would negate the main weakness of firewarriors: Close-range engagments.

For Tau, "mobility" means something differnent than for, say, Eldar.
Eldar mobility means (or at least can mean) constant movement - moving itself is a weapon, giving you both attack vector and increased resilience.
For Tau, it simply means maneuvering to bring overwhelming firepower at a point of your choice - similar to modern armies.
The game-style that would be created by your change would mean that firewarriors are constantly on the move, instead of finding the right position to kill their pray, shoot it and THEN move on.

My suggestion: Give the Devilfish the ability to move 18'', and possibly allow disembarkment after that.
This will allow firewarriors to hold a certain position and get out of there if necessary (fitting general tau doctrine), but in a way that can be countered (by shooting the vehicle).

[Ryan Thunder]

I admit, i did not know the current point-costs of a devilfish.

Considering the capability you get for a hundred points with the new Valkyrie (which is, hilariously, suddenly better armoured in spite of being an 11/11/10 vehicle for the entirety of its prior existence thanks to those stupid wankers), its sorely overpriced at the moment, IMHO.

However, i still think that you can not just make puls rifles assault weapons (at least not without an insignificant range reduction).
Its not only inconsistient with fluff, but also for game balance reasons:
-It will allow Tau to stay out of the range of most weapons. While most heavy weapons are still able to hit them, NO basic infantry weapon will be able to do so.

This is already the case when they're static, though.

-They could also delay the arrival of enemy close-combat troops by 2-3 turns, happily blazing away while doing so.
-It would allow for a "double-hit assault" when the enemy is close enough: Shoot, then assault. While Tau are not the best close combat troops, they will still do damage with that (20 S3 attacks) - and its free and better than being assaulted yourself.

Striking at Initiative 2. Guardsmen will hit them first.

Trust me, getting that close is suicide without Rapid Fire. Hell, even then...

-They could advance at enemy positions AND shoot, which is an huge advantage.
-Thus, it would negate the main weakness of firewarriors: Close-range engagments.

On the contrary, I think it would exacerbate them. But nevertheless, I agree that its not really a good idea.

For Tau, "mobility" means something differnent than for, say, Eldar.
Eldar mobility means (or at least can mean) constant movement - moving itself is a weapon, giving you both attack vector and increased resilience.
For Tau, it simply means maneuvering to bring overwhelming firepower at a point of your choice - similar to modern armies.
The game-style that would be created by your change would mean that firewarriors are constantly on the move, instead of finding the right position to kill their pray, shoot it and THEN move on.

This could be better accomplished by a new, faster battlesuit with heavier weapons (something scary in a Terminator sense) and more drones, as well as a greater variety in their armament.

That, and vehicle weapons that are actually scary compared to what everybody else is packing, because right now a 10/1 gun with a 6/4 template secondary function is kinda lacklustre, as ridiculous as that sounds. And burst cannons are a fucking joke. XD

My suggestion: Give the Devilfish the ability to move 18'', and possibly allow disembarkment after that.
This will allow firewarriors to hold a certain position and get out of there if necessary (fitting general tau doctrine), but in a way that can be countered (by shooting the vehicle).

Dunno. The Devilfish never struck me as a particularly fast vehicle, what with its top speed of 60 km/h according to the Imperial Armour books and all. Easily faster than, say, a Leman Russ, but not fast enough to earn it the "Fast" type.

[Raxmei]

However, i still think that you can not just make puls rifles assault weapons (at least not without an insignificant range reduction).
Its not only inconsistient with fluff, but also for game balance reasons:
-It will allow Tau to stay out of the range of most weapons. While most heavy weapons are still able to hit them, NO basic infantry weapon will be able to do so.
-They could also delay the arrival of enemy close-combat troops by 2-3 turns, happily blazing away while doing so.

Might not be fluff consistent, I'm not intimately familiar with Tau small unit tactics. I disagree that the change is that big a deal. Most opposition will either bring the necessary heavy weapons or the mobility needed to close the gap.

-It would allow for a "double-hit assault" when the enemy is close enough: Shoot, then assault. While Tau are not the best close combat troops, they will still do damage with that (20 S3 attacks) - and its free and better than being assaulted yourself.
-They could advance at enemy positions AND shoot, which is an huge advantage.
-Thus, it would negate the main weakness of firewarriors: Close-range engagments.

With Tau stats, assault 1 is worse than rapid fire within 12" - losing a shot to gain a couple close combat attacks. That's part of why the pulse carbine is so rarely taken even though it's free. Two attacks at S3 vs one at S5 Ap5 works out unfavorably in most comparisons even before taking into account most enemies will strike first and you're giving the enemy the opportunity to kill you in your turn. The closest you'd ever get to that being a favorable trade would be attacking something with T3 or worse, I2 or worse, and a 4+ save or better, and who the fuck has crazy stats like that?

For Tau, "mobility" means something differnent than for, say, Eldar.
Eldar mobility means (or at least can mean) constant movement - moving itself is a weapon, giving you both attack vector and increased resilience.

You see that quite a bit with Tau armies too - the notorious jump shoot jump battlesuit army. It was more obvious in 4th when it was easier to completely block off shooting to suits, Tau tanks could benefit from skimmers moving fast, and you didn't need Troops to score, but you do still see it with battlesuit armies.

For Tau, it simply means maneuvering to bring overwhelming firepower at a point of your choice - similar to modern armies.
The game-style that would be created by your change would mean that firewarriors are constantly on the move, instead of finding the right position to kill their pray, shoot it and THEN move on.

The contrast between Eldar mobility and Tau mobility to me is as follows. The Eldar move to engage the enemy decisively. The Tau move to avoid decisive engagement and to maintain a tactically superior position. An assault weapon is not in itself an incentive to move, it just removes one of the disincentives to moving. Good cover is still good cover even if you can shoot while advancing out of it.

My suggestion: Give the Devilfish the ability to move 18'', and possibly allow disembarkment after that.
This will allow firewarriors to hold a certain position and get out of there if necessary (fitting general tau doctrine), but in a way that can be countered (by shooting the vehicle).

That's a ten point upgrade and six inches of movement away from just being a fast skimmer. Allowing disembarking after embarking and moving over 12" breaks a couple core rules about how transports work, which would need some justification.

Maybe I just need to take a closer look at its role. If it's just a battle taxi you might be able to get away with just slashing its price to bring it into line with the Chimera. A skimmer that isn't fast doesn't really have much of an edge over nonskimmers in this edition aside from jumping over obstacles.

On the contrary, I think it would exacerbate them. But nevertheless, I agree that its not really a good idea.

Quite possibly.

This could be better accomplished by a new, faster battlesuit with heavier weapons (something scary in a Terminator sense) and more drones, as well as a greater variety in their armament.

I disagree. That would increase the already existing temptation to neglect troops in favor of suits. The game is flowing strongly in the opposite direction. You need strong fire warriors that can work in concert with the rest of the army in some unspecified way.

[Ryan Thunder]

Make a Gun Drone squadron/platoon-style unit that's a Troops choice.

[Serafina]

The Valkyries 12/12/10 armor is on par with Eldar vehicles - both are enclosed, and the Valkyrie is likely compensating quality with quantity.

As for the point costs of a devilfish: A chimera is currently priced at 55 points - including two anti-infantry heavy weapons and five gunports.
The current devilfish has a single pulse cannons, two drones (iirc), no gunports and is a skimmer. The pulse cannons/drones are inferior to the heavy bolter/mulitlaser of the chimera - they have less penetration/range. This should cut the cost by 5 points.
Having no gunports compared to 5 is also a disadvantage worth 5 points.
Being a skimmer is nice, but not that powerfull if you are not fast - you actually have some DISadvantages (not being able to use roads).
Thats an important point: A normal vehicle (12'' movement) can move another 6'' when on a road (18'' total).
A Chimera is comparable to a modern IFV - and those pull around 60-70 km/h on roads.
So, we can say that the speed of Tau vehicles and a Chimera is roughly equal.
This leads to my previous proposition: Allowing the Devilfish to move another 6'' when moving with full speed.
Actually, i would want this as a rule for every non-fast Tau skimmer: When 12'', they can add up to 6'' to their movement.

Back to the point costs: With the rule mentioned above, i would price being a tau-skimmer 10 points. Which gives us a point costs of....55 points.
Of course, i would like to see a change in armament. The pulse cannon can remain standard armament, but i would like to see the possibility to replace it with more powerfull weaponery (say, an ion cannon for 10 points).
Also, the drones need the ability to get better weaponery, AND be able to fire as additional weapons regardless of strenght (replacement with target painter/flamer for free, rail rifle/plasmarifle for 5 points (per drone), fusion blaster/missile pod for 10 points (possibly 5) (per drone)).
The general ability to fire as extra weapons should be worth 5 or 10 points (propably 10).

Point costs: 40 (hull), 5 (transport), 5 (pulse cannon), 15 (drones as additional weapons), skimmer (zero, racial ability)

This would get us a moderatly armored vehicle with considerable armament (able to inflict 3-4 casualties on standard infantry, not bad for a transport vehicle) and tactical flexibility, adn the ability to rapidly redeploy troops if needed, for a total point cost of 65 points (basic) to 95 points.
Et voila, we have taken the plain old, mostly harmeless devilfish and made it more practical transport AND a viable combat asset with heavy armament for a dedicated transport. And we only have to change the model a little bit - add an extra weapon part or two and give the drones new weapon options.

Adressing the pulse rifle argument:

Might not be fluff consistent, I'm not intimately familiar with Tau small unit tactics. I disagree that the change is that big a deal. Most opposition will either bring the necessary heavy weapons or the mobility needed to close the gap.

Bullshit. You can only take that much heavy weaponery, robbing you of ALL your small arms firepower is harsh (even for imperial guard, more so for marines). AND it does render you immobile, too - while the tau can move around.

You see that quite a bit with Tau armies too - the notorious jump shoot jump battlesuit army. It was more obvious in 4th when it was easier to completely block off shooting to suits, Tau tanks could benefit from skimmers moving fast, and you didn't need Troops to score, but you do still see it with battlesuit armies.

Yeah, but thats just using terrain, nothing else. Tau HAVE mobility, they just use it differently than eldar. And the current pulse rifles fit the fluff, assault 1 ones do not.

That's a ten point upgrade and six inches of movement away from just being a fast skimmer. Allowing disembarking after embarking and moving over 12" breaks a couple core rules about how transports work, which would need some justification.

I never said something about embarking/disembarking in the same turn. Just about disembarking after moving 18'' - which is just a little, special rule included in the rule allowing 18'' of movement in the first place (heck, you are allowed to disembark after moving 18'' on a street).

Maybe I just need to take a closer look at its role. If it's just a battle taxi you might be able to get away with just slashing its price to bring it into line with the Chimera. A skimmer that isn't fast doesn't really have much of an edge over nonskimmers in this edition aside from jumping over obstacles.

Its a mix. A "battle taxi" is something like a rhino or pickup. Chimeras, Razorbacks and the Devilfish have more in common with modern IFVs - they can transport troops, but are a danger all on their own, too, comparable to a squad of infantry.
Oh, and being a skimmer is quite usefull - ESPECIALLY for tranports.

If you look at my proposal, you will see that the devilfish will fit that rule just fine. Its more expensive than other IFVs, but also grants more mobility and extra firepower - typical Tau style.

[Ryan Thunder]

The Valkyries 12/12/10 armor is on par with Eldar vehicles - both are enclosed, and the Valkyrie is likely compensating quality with quantity.

On par with Eldar tanks, you mean, which are only possible because of a combination of ridiculously superior Eldar metallurgy and grav technology.

The Valkyrie is not an Eldar grav tank, and has never been heavily armoured. To say that it should be more heavily armoured than a Devilfish while being faster is absurd.

But, regardless, that's how they've made it, so we'll have to work with it. [/rant]

As for the point costs of a devilfish: A chimera is currently priced at 55 points - including two anti-infantry heavy weapons and five gunports.
The current devilfish has a single pulse cannons, two drones (iirc), no gunports and is a skimmer. The pulse cannons/drones are inferior to the heavy bolter/mulitlaser of the chimera - they have less penetration/range. This should cut the cost by 5 points. Having no gunports compared to 5 is also a disadvantage worth 5 points.

Minor nitpick; I believe that by "pulse cannons" you mean "burst cannons", since there's no such thing as a "pulse cannon" in the Tau armoury.

Being a skimmer is nice, but not that powerfull if you are not fast - you actually have some DISadvantages (not being able to use roads). Thats an important point: A normal vehicle (12'' movement) can move another 6'' when on a road (18'' total).

Guh. Ridiculous. You would think that skimmers would get to do that advantage everywhere, but no.
Well, who ever uses roads in their games, anyway? XD

A Chimera is comparable to a modern IFV - and those pull around 60-70 km/h on roads. So, we can say that the speed of Tau vehicles and a Chimera is roughly equal.

Yeah, that sounds fair. IIRC, the Devilfish does about 60 km/h (on par with the Hammerhead), and according to Imperial Armour volume 1, the Chimera can pull 55 km/h offroad.

This leads to my previous proposition: Allowing the Devilfish to move another 6'' when moving with full speed.
Actually, i would want this as a rule for every non-fast Tau skimmer: When 12'', they can add up to 6'' to their movement.

Actually, this sounds like a rule that all skimmers in general should get, including "Fast" ones.

Back to the point costs: With the rule mentioned above, i would price being a tau-skimmer 10 points. Which gives us a point costs of....55 points.
Of course, i would like to see a change in armament. The pulse cannon can remain standard armament, but i would like to see the possibility to replace it with more powerfull weaponery (say, an ion cannon for 10 points).

No. That would be utter madness. The Tau just need something to compete reasonably well with the autocannon and heavy bolter. The missile pod would be good, but some variety would also be nice.

I propose having a variation on the Cyclic Ion Blaster from the 4th edition codex replace the existing applications of burst cannons, and then make the new burst cannons behave like the long-barrelled ones from Forge World, which were pretty much heavy bolters with a 48" range, IIRC. These would replace the vehicle mounted burst cannons on the current versions of the Devilfish and Hammerhead, because frankly, the existing ones are useless with these rules.

Also, the drones need the ability to get better weaponery, AND be able to fire as additional weapons regardless of strenght (replacement with target painter/flamer for free, rail rifle/plasmarifle for 5 points (per drone), fusion blaster/missile pod for 10 points (possibly 5) (per drone)).

Okay, you're getting more than just a little crazy here. Have you actually read the codex? Plasma rifles and fusion blasters need battlesuit power sources at a bare minimum to function. Putting them on Gun Drones would be madness.

Not to mention, easily worth a hell of a lot more than just 5-10 points per drone.

The general ability to fire as extra weapons should be worth 5 or 10 points (propably 10).

The drones are already able to fire separately as passengers. That's pretty reasonable, I think.

Et voila, we have taken the plain old, mostly harmeless devilfish and made it more practical transport AND a viable combat asset with heavy armament for a dedicated transport. And we only have to change the model a little bit - add an extra weapon part or two and give the drones new weapon options.

Rather than giving the drones different weapons in this case, just give the player the option to replace them with dedicated defensive weapons systems. That's what the turret carriages are for, anyway.

Adressing the pulse rifle argument:

Might not be fluff consistent, I'm not intimately familiar with Tau small unit tactics. I disagree that the change is that big a deal. Most opposition will either bring the necessary heavy weapons or the mobility needed to close the gap.

Bullshit. You can only take that much heavy weaponery, robbing you of ALL your small arms firepower is harsh (even for imperial guard, more so for marines). AND it does render you immobile, too - while the tau can move around.

Losing Rapid Fire is a big deal. Trust me on that. Trading static long-ranged and powerful short-ranged firepower for long ranged mobile firepower is not a good idea for Tau infantry.

This isn't really a broken idea. It's just one that I'd never ever want to play with.

[Raxmei]

Bullshit. You can only take that much heavy weaponery, robbing you of ALL your small arms firepower is harsh (even for imperial guard, more so for marines). AND it does render you immobile, too - while the tau can move around.

With neither side in cover, guard infantry squads with heavy bolters will defeat an equal points value of fire warriors over the course of five turns. A guard squad in a Chimera can run down a fire warrior squad while shooting it. If the Tau don't flee before the power of the almighty Chimera they'll be taking both of its guns plus those of five of its passengers next turn. Space Marines played in the most unimaginative manner possible come out inconclusive, but if they bring out the metal boxes they come out on top. And does anyone seriously run with nothing but walking tac squads?

Anything better than AV10 is pretty safe from pulse fire. A whole squad could shoot AV11 and count itself lucky to score a single glance. If the vehicle can shoot 24" it can advance and shoot back.

The more I look at this the more I'm starting to agree with Ryan that this would be a downgrade, or at best ineffective.


***

Replacing gun drones with marker drones for free won't fly. A marker drone is worth 20 points more than a gun drone, and for good reason.

The ion cannon is currently considered a worthy main weapon for a Hammerhead. It's also better than an autocannon in three different ways. As Ryan said (and I can't believe I'm agreeing with Ryan), madness.

And Ryan, relax about the language. The German codex obviously words a few things slightly differently.

[Ryan Thunder]

Replacing gun drones with marker drones for free won't fly. A marker drone is worth 20 points more than a gun drone, and for good reason.

Well, if you consider that the drone is totally unarmed aside from that, its a bit expensive for what you get.

And Ryan, relax about the language. The German codex obviously words a few things slightly differently.

Why don't you relax? I was just pointing it out for his benefit.

[Serafina]

I totally agree with Ryan about skimmer speed. But then again, Tau are more or less the ONLY race with non-fast skimmers.

Replacing gun drones with marker drones for free won't fly. A marker drone is worth 20 points more than a gun drone, and for good reason.

Seriously? Thats expensive - TOO expensive, if you ask me. But you are right, its propably a bit too cheap.

Anyway, i would LOVE to see more flexible drone armament. Its not really THAT important whats its going to be.
But i definatly want the Devilfish to have heavier armament than other transport vehicles. You can get that by "drone controlled weapons" - which is, in generall, a good idea to solve the "S4 problem" for Tau vehicles.
But thats still useless, if you do not give the drones better weapons. I choose my weapon list due to the tactical role they could fulfill with those weapons, instead of fluff considerations - if necessary, you can just say that they gain that energy from the vehicle they are attached to.

Oh, and a long-barreled version of the burst cannon is a pretty good idea. Just give it two different profiles - one "heavy 3, 30/36'', one "assault 3, 18'' one, and restrict the heavy one to vehicles - thats important for the stealth suits. (whatever they are called).