Best Rebel Alliance/New Republic Capital ships

[Thanas]

Or manufacturers making their own adjustment. Remember that the ships were built by two different planets/companies/shipyards and thus may very well differ.

[RogueIce]

Yes they were. Kube-McDowell may have written about them first, but WEG gave us their actual numbers and designs.

It was Kube-McDowell who wrote quite a bit of it, and WEG fluffed it up. Kube-McDowell used to have a website with some details on all the ships in the fleet. I wonder whether it still exists.

Found it: http://www.sff.net/people/K-Mac/blackfleet.htm

Kube-McDowell came up with the idea, but it was WEG who went and made those God-awful illustrations.

Really, I think the idea behind the New Class was a good one, to standardize the NR fleet. The MC-90 was a step in that direction as it was built to a standard design (how much of the previous MonCal ships being "unique" depends on how much you believe EU fluff, but if you take it at face value...) and then when you consider that they probably did get a bunch of designs from member planets...well the NR fleet could well have been a mess. So coming up with standard designs, at least for a "core" NRDF fleet, with member states contributing on an as-needed basis (as Vision of the Future indicated they could be called up) it makes sense.

But man, I don't know what crack those WEG illustrators were smoking when they made those pictures. At least the Nebula got a retconned design which is pretty nice.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Kube-McDowell came up with the idea, but it was WEG who went and made those God-awful illustrations.

Really, I think the idea behind the New Class was a good one, to standardize the NR fleet. The MC-90 was a step in that direction as it was built to a standard design (how much of the previous MonCal ships being "unique" depends on how much you believe EU fluff, but if you take it at face value...) and then when you consider that they probably did get a bunch of designs from member planets...well the NR fleet could well have been a mess. So coming up with standard designs, at least for a "core" NRDF fleet, with member states contributing on an as-needed basis (as Vision of the Future indicated they could be called up) it makes sense.

But man, I don't know what crack those WEG illustrators were smoking when they made those pictures. At least the Nebula got a retconned design which is pretty nice.

Probably because they got some dead beat artist who decided to draw ships like caricatured cartoons rather than one that actually paid attention to detail.

The main beef with them really was that some moron figured out that a ship with short legs was sufficient (6mths of stores! versus years for an ISD!)

Then in the novels, you had the 5th Fleet used in an offensive posture, and then in the Yuuzhan Vong War, you have these Nebula class star destroyers as front line warships. Not only will the logistical train required be long, these ships will need resupply very often.

Though my biggest beef is the Endurance carrier. We now have a fantastic carrier called the Venator, and the Endurance not only seems to have a smaller fighter complement and likely less armed unless some moron comes along and retcon all these designs and finally give them a proper arm load out. But that applies to loads of warships and seems no one in the LFL has the spine to do so.

[Thanas]

To be fair though, it is entirely possible that the NR decided to buy ships the cheap way and the yards were all too happy to oblige. It is not like the NR isn't a hotbed of infighting and cronyism.

Plus, all the major yards which had decent experience with shipbuilding (leaving aside the MonCal) were mostly run by dirty imperials and as Leia said, you wouldn't want to deal with those, no Sir.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

A good portion of the fleet was manufactured by KDY.

[Thanas]

A good portion of the fleet was manufactured by KDY.

Yes, but KDY had at that part lost their entire senior design teams at Byss. KDY after the downfall of the second empire is not to be confused with the KDY of the Empire era - the shipyards had been extremely destroyed etc.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

A good portion of the fleet was manufactured by KDY.

Yes, but KDY had at that part lost their entire senior design teams at Byss. KDY after the downfall of the second empire is not to be confused with the KDY of the Empire era - the shipyards had been extremely destroyed etc.

And where's the source for that? The last known recorded attack on the shipyards was post-Zsinj and the shipyards would have recovered somewhat by the time Thrawn was killed, that being 2-3 years. The construction for the New Class ships begun not long after the Reborn Emperor's downfall. Moreover, I have never read of the loss of the senior design team (Never mind that, even with the claims that Byss had shipyards, none of the pictures of Byss ever showed any orbital shipyards, which would have been large enough to be visible. Likely somewhere else in the system and may have escaped destruction. Many of the shipyards of the Reborn Emperor were outside Byss. The World Devastators were constructed elsewhere.). Just because they escaped with the Eclipse hull does not suggest in any way that they did not return back especially after the Reborn Emperor revealed himself. Kuat would have surely seceded from the the NR during Operation Shadow Hand and escaped any damage during Shadow Hand.

[Agent Sorchus]

The Liberator is a personal favorite and would be a capable vessel for rebel fighters to raid from, while maintaining enough firepower to deal with the majority of Imperial patrols. It would retain use for the republic in a similar role to the Acclamator, planetary assault. The flaw is that they do not have a voluminous and the volume dictated by the design is dedicated for troops and fighters, not power generation and shields, and would suffer much in the battle-line.

[Knife]

Best Rebel/NR ships were the old Mon Cal ships per RotJ. Now I abhor how the EU has made a farce of those ships, the whole each one is a unique design crap. That said, the Home One type cruiser is beautiful, along with a nice complement of Liberty type and wingless type escorts. Truly good looking ships.

I really wish the incredible cross section group would have done some Mon Cal ships if only to fix the abortion the nomenclature of Mon Cal ships has become in the EU.

[RogueIce]

I really wish the incredible cross section group would have done some Mon Cal ships if only to fix the abortion the nomenclature of Mon Cal ships has become in the EU.

"Is it this a MC-80, or a MC-80a? The galaxy may never know..."

You know Thanas that Mediator image you posted is nice, though I gather it's a fan design? Does anyone know of any "official" artwork for the Mediator battlecruisers?

[Thanas]

You know Thanas that Mediator image you posted is nice, though I gather it's a fan design? Does anyone know of any "official" artwork for the Mediator battlecruisers?

When have I posted a mediator battlecruiser?

[RogueIce]

You know Thanas that Mediator image you posted is nice, though I gather it's a fan design? Does anyone know of any "official" artwork for the Mediator battlecruisers?

When have I posted a mediator battlecruiser?

I could have sworn you did, or at least that somebody did. But now that I look for it in the thread, I can't find it. Now I'm confused...or going crazy. One or the other.

Either that or it's in another thread and I'm remembering wrong...

[Havok]

If those were the rules, I would vote for an Executor . . .

Seriously! The insignia! Look at those things! They are like 3 miles across!

You know, I have spent the last couple days looking at ships to see which one is indeed my favorite and I have to say that there are none. Aside from the Blockaderunner and the Mon Cal winged capital from ROTJ, pretty much all the post ROTJ EU ships look like fucking shit. They are all uninteresting, modified versions of what we already have seen. There seems to be a definitive lack of imagination when it comes to the big ships.

The small, Falcon sized ships have fared much better when it comes to creativity in the EU. It's as if, because the Falcon, Slave One, Tydurium etc., looked so different and unique from each other that the artists (written or drawn) strive to make the same size ships also as individual as possible. Whereas that is lost on the big ships, even though the same thing can be said of the movie Capitals as far as looking different from each other.

[Connor MacLeod]

One thing I kepe wondering about when we discuss "best" is in what context? The most powerful offensively and/or defensively? The one with the best acceleration? Longest combat or operational endurance? Ability to deploy fighters? Armor? Most effective for cost? There are tons of factors you can apply, and starships as a rule will be built for differing roles/purposes, so cross-comparisons aren't good. Being more specific would be good.

As far as perfectly personal "like" i like the Nebula/Defender class vessels the most.

[Knife]

I really wish the incredible cross section group would have done some Mon Cal ships if only to fix the abortion the nomenclature of Mon Cal ships has become in the EU.

"Is it this a MC-80, or a MC-80a? The galaxy may never know..."

Which is dumb. The MC-80 and MC-80a would go perfectly with the Liberty and wingless Liberty type ships. Too bad the retarded 'each ship is it's own design' came about even though it is easy to prove otherwise.

[PainRack]

Probably because they got some dead beat artist who decided to draw ships like caricatured cartoons rather than one that actually paid attention to detail.

The main beef with them really was that some moron figured out that a ship with short legs was sufficient (6mths of stores! versus years for an ISD!)

Then in the novels, you had the 5th Fleet used in an offensive posture, and then in the Yuuzhan Vong War, you have these Nebula class star destroyers as front line warships. Not only will the logistical train required be long, these ships will need resupply very often.

Though my biggest beef is the Endurance carrier. We now have a fantastic carrier called the Venator, and the Endurance not only seems to have a smaller fighter complement and likely less armed unless some moron comes along and retcon all these designs and finally give them a proper arm load out. But that applies to loads of warships and seems no one in the LFL has the spine to do so.

Ignoring the art, there is no reason to actually decry the New Class. The benefits of crews, firepower and shielding HAVE to come from somewhere and they appear to do so by making such ships having much lesser endurance than Imperial designs. Given the expeditionary nature of Republic fleets and their highly centralised forces, this could very well be a political and strategic design embraced by the Republic.

Remember the pre Clone Wars ships and their short hyperspace legs?

[PainRack]

One thing I kepe wondering about when we discuss "best" is in what context? The most powerful offensively and/or defensively? The one with the best acceleration? Longest combat or operational endurance? Ability to deploy fighters? Armor? Most effective for cost? There are tons of factors you can apply, and starships as a rule will be built for differing roles/purposes, so cross-comparisons aren't good. Being more specific would be good.

As far as perfectly personal "like" i like the Nebula/Defender class vessels the most.

Frankly, I would like to ask what would you feel is the "best" carrier. Is the best carrier in the SWU one which carries a larger complement of starfighters? One which carries more shielding and armament? One which has a longer range, speed and longer combat endurance?

One wonders which tactical doctrine is more important in the SWU..... The Clone wars appears to have taught the Imperial Navy that snubfighters aren't as important as bigger battleships. Given that, are starfighters more important for precision attacks and supporting ground assaults?

[Connor MacLeod]

Frankly, I would like to ask what would you feel is the "best" carrier. Is the best carrier in the SWU one which carries a larger complement of starfighters? One which carries more shielding and armament? One which has a longer range, speed and longer combat endurance?

That's kinda what I was getting at. It depends alot on the situation and factors you apply, and that can be complex or difficult. Moreover, I dont think you can combine the Rebel Alliance and the NR. The former was a guerilla/revolutionary group largely with the support of varied rebelling planets and the latter was a whole new (if stupid) government. Requirements tend to differ.

For the Rebels the "best" factors you look for is cost and ease of building for a given level of effectiveness. Ideally I'm thinking large fighter/bombers (something bigger than a B-wing, the ROTJ novel mentions dedicated bombers after all) and torpedo boat type analogues. You want what capital ships you have to be tough and easily repaired (since they'll be the hardest to replace.) You want all your ships to be fast and capable of independent operation and be able to hide if possible.

the NR by and large was a defensive military, so you don't want long hyperdrive ranges or neccesarily long operational times (you can assume they have bases of operations and local resupply - even with shorter ranged hyperdrive speed will make resupply easy as long as you dont get the enemy raiding you.) Size isn't as big an issue in such a case, but cost probably is (smaller military budget for the actual government) and you probably want to balance size with coverage. At the same time, you dont want to have ALL small ships (as the Black Fleet crisis proved)

the Rebels probably want light fast carriers purely for raiding purposes (they can have alot of those, so they are easy to build and cheap and numerous). The NR probably wants a bigger carrier (That can carry bigger fighter/bombers) but smaller than say, what Admiral Giel had (those would probably be fewer in number and used as command ships for fleets)

One wonders which tactical doctrine is more important in the SWU..... The Clone wars appears to have taught the Imperial Navy that snubfighters aren't as important as bigger battleships. Given that, are starfighters more important for precision attacks and supporting ground assaults?

Pretty much "whatever the fuck a person wants", because SW has demonstrated that they don't always fight as logically as they could. If they were REALLY effective they'd be using entirely droid armies and navies (which they can do) and droid automation. But they don't for whatever reason (probably political stupidity, bias, or some other biologicla irrationality) and such applicatons are used in very limited fashion (or regarded as weapons of terror/mass destruction.)
On the other hand, if they WERE efficient and less restricted, there's some chance that some lunatic asshole would use robotic technologies to fuck over the whole galaxy (insanely fast hyperdrive + stellar level power technoliges + advanced robotics and automated construction that does not appear to be all that rare or unusual.... And the SW galaxy is not exactly short of irrational lunatics either.)

Really its probably more a matter of "style" or "taste' as anything (or kinda like the way combat is "ritualized' in Dune, just in a somewhat less absurd manner.) Technologically they can probably make essentially anything work (munitions can carry shield penetration technologies to help offset possibly lower yields, for example) but they probably restrict certain kinds of weapons applications out of a desire not to fuck up the galaxy as above (IE they use fighters more rather than autonomous drone missiles with hyperdrives.)

[Tiriol]

Pretty much "whatever the fuck a person wants", because SW has demonstrated that they don't always fight as logically as they could. If they were REALLY effective they'd be using entirely droid armies and navies (which they can do) and droid automation. But they don't for whatever reason (probably political stupidity, bias, or some other biologicla irrationality) and such applicatons are used in very limited fashion (or regarded as weapons of terror/mass destruction.)
On the other hand, if they WERE efficient and less restricted, there's some chance that some lunatic asshole would use robotic technologies to fuck over the whole galaxy (insanely fast hyperdrive + stellar level power technoliges + advanced robotics and automated construction that does not appear to be all that rare or unusual.... And the SW galaxy is not exactly short of irrational lunatics either.)

Really its probably more a matter of "style" or "taste' as anything (or kinda like the way combat is "ritualized' in Dune, just in a somewhat less absurd manner.) Technologically they can probably make essentially anything work (munitions can carry shield penetration technologies to help offset possibly lower yields, for example) but they probably restrict certain kinds of weapons applications out of a desire not to fuck up the galaxy as above (IE they use fighters more rather than autonomous drone missiles with hyperdrives.)

I'm quite sure that using droids as an anathema in warfare DOES have its reasons based on previous wars and experiences, more than just some biological arrogance: it appears that every time some power-hungry dictator or, as you called, lunatic tries to take on the galaxy, his first order of business is to establish a droid army. The Krath had theirs, Xvim the Despot had his, Confederacy had theirs and the resurrected Palpatine unleashed droid TIE fighters and shadow droids (and, of course, the Ssi-Ruuk actually stole people's life forces to power their droid hordes, not to mention the Sacorrian Triad using droid ramships during the Centerpoint Crisis). The mental association with power-hungry madmen and ambitious tyrants must be immense. After all, it's easier to raise a droid army than to train an army based on biological beings.

It appears, though, that at least the Galactic Empire (and Revan's Sith Empire) augmented their biological forces with mechanical ones: crab droids from the Confederacy's army were still in use during the Galactic Civil War and Executor Sedriss's assault on Balmorra was partially done by huge war droids. I don't know about the other interstellar governments, though; the actual ground combat is usually given less focus than space battles.

[Darth Hoth]

The Empire began using 'droids on a large scale only after Palpatine's reemergence, at which point he had more or less dropped the idea of maintaining a good image and instead let loose with the 40k-esque insane God-Emperor Theocracy plans. Even then, they were mostly run in very tight reins: usually in support roles, rather than fully automated militaries on the scale of what the Confederacy boasted. This might indicate impracticalities with such (command/control issues, perhaps, limited to what autonomy you wish to entrust AIs with), or it might simply be image problems. Even World Devastators, which would be able to function without their crews, were extra securely linked to the Byss master control computer (and thus under Palpatine's direct command, without possibility of override). Of course, in a situation when their very survival was threatened, there is no reason why the Empire (or any Galactic government) would not break out the full package, but if so it appears that the threat must be worse than the Rebellion.

Others that used 'droids in their militaries would be the New Republic/Galactic Alliance, with their YVHs.

[Patroklos]

I have a feeling thatt he real reason that droids do not simply replace human fighters more frequently is their slave status. Droids have been proven over and over to have the same intellect of their human masters with the obvious advantages of a machine mind. It is not hard to imagine one of the previous mechanical armies simple finding away around their slaving and taking matters into their own hands. The human in the loop may very well just be a long assumed safeguard.

[PainRack]

I have a feeling thatt he real reason that droids do not simply replace human fighters more frequently is their slave status. Droids have been proven over and over to have the same intellect of their human masters with the obvious advantages of a machine mind. It is not hard to imagine one of the previous mechanical armies simple finding away around their slaving and taking matters into their own hands. The human in the loop may very well just be a long assumed safeguard.

There already exists a slave circuit installed in droids such as C3PO, as seen in the Adventures of Luke Skywalker....

IMHO, the neccesity of such a slave circuit may be used to rationalise the myth that droid armies are inferior to human armies, the arrogrance of sentient beings that you need to be "creative" so as to be a good military.

[Chris OFarrell]

SOME parts of the New Class had a lot of good points to say about them.

The Nebula class stats wise is a solid contender against an ISD I, and even an ISD II will have to be wary around one. The volume difference makes some degree of sense if you took it to have NO Starfighter wing, NO ground troops and the 6 month supply limit, sacrificing the flexibility of an ISD to much more of a pure warship role. And with the significantly reduced volume, you could have two of them for an ISD II, or close there about. And the retconned design looked sweet, the original design must never be spoken of again.

Of course, then they put 60 fighters back on the design because they don't believe in trade offs for improvements in other areas...

Still, from the NR point of view it makes sense if you can get 2 or 3 Nebulas for the price of an ISD II, especially given how the Empire had been heavily diminished by this point in time and no other group had anything really like an ISD II to play with. They SHOULD have still kept up production of the MC-90 subtype to complement the fleets, ships that can take on the few heavier Imperial ships still left, as well as bulk up the battle line with considerable firepower if the Empire did become a threat again, as well as a handful of Star Dreadnaughts in deep reserve. The other direction has a solid enough standardized support fleet with 700 meter Heavy Cruisers that should be able to take on and win against a Victory II, then 400 meter long light cruisers, and 200 meter long corvette type ships, all of which are supposedly superior to their Imperial counterparts. Add in the heavy fleet carriers which SHOULD be carrying hundreds of enhanced NR fighters, including the awesome K-Wing which sadly vanished into nothing, and the NR fleet is set.

Of course, in the Black Fleet books, we have a major problem in that the author is a minimalist idiot, albeit not a Karen Travis, who really doesn't get the scope and scale of things, hence crazy talk like 'Oh we scraped the one SSD we captured from the Empire...except we captured two...and we didn't...' and forbidding the Republic from building their own comparable classes, to there only being a handful of fleets in the Galaxy, each with barely a hundred major and minor combatants...

And of course the nasty super blood crazy aliens of doom who are going to take on the whole Galaxy, with their 'genetic' ability to take apart Galactic technology and put it back together again, but BETTER!...

Really, the New Class could and should have been done much better then it was.

[Thanas]

SOME parts of the New Class had a lot of good points to say about them.

The Nebula class stats wise is a solid contender against an ISD I, and even an ISD II will have to be wary around one. The volume difference makes some degree of sense if you took it to have NO Starfighter wing, NO ground troops and the 6 month supply limit, sacrificing the flexibility of an ISD to much more of a pure warship role. And with the significantly reduced volume, you could have two of them for an ISD II, or close there about. And the retconned design looked sweet, the original design must never be spoken of again.

Of course, then they put 60 fighters back on the design because they don't believe in trade offs for improvements in other areas...

We had a discussion about this in the STGOD forum. Basically, the problem with the Nebula is that it doesn't really sacrifice enough. For starters, as you say, it carries 60 fighters, only 12 less than the ISD. Then, it carries 1600 ground troops. Why, I have no idea.

Finally, it carries 15000 metric tons of cargos vs 36.000 tons in an ISD. Which considering the various volumes is a tradeoff, but not that large one.

In comparison, the Tector is a far better ship-killing design than the Nebula.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

An ISD is also expected to move several walkers and their transports, along with 3 prefab bases. A Nebula can only accommodate up 60 spacecraft and no more.

Also the New Class in general was optimised for long range bombardment and not short range skirmishes. It is quite possible that a rather skillful Imperator II captain could potentially gun down a Nebula at close range.

And a Tector would likely vape an Imperator I and probably II, and thus a Nebula by default.