Cheater sues when school bans her from graduation ceremony

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Re: Cheater sues when school bans her from graduation ceremony

Post by Havok »

Darth Wong wrote:
Havok wrote:You obviously didn't read the article either. No one "hacked" the computer system. There was no conspiracy. The student who was expelled saw a teachers password and decided to use it.
And this changes the situation ... how?

If I see someone type in an entry code on a secure door and then use that code to gain entry to the building, it's breaking and entering. It isn't any less breaking and entering than it would be if I had some high-tech way of getting that code.
That actually might not be breaking and entering. If you break into a car that is not yours, and steal it, it is theft. If you have the keys to a car that is not yours, it is "joyriding" IIRC. That could be just a CA law though.

However, it changes the situation from making a bad decision into a plot to cheat. Now if the five kids got together and decided to steal the password and use it before hand, that is something else, but if that had been the case, I imagine they would have all been expelled, as it is, only the kid that saw and used the password was expelled, which leads me to believe that it was just kids being fucking stupid and acting on impulse without thinking it through very well.
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Re: Cheater sues when school bans her from graduation ceremony

Post by Darth Wong »

Havok wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:
Havok wrote:You obviously didn't read the article either. No one "hacked" the computer system. There was no conspiracy. The student who was expelled saw a teachers password and decided to use it.
And this changes the situation ... how?

If I see someone type in an entry code on a secure door and then use that code to gain entry to the building, it's breaking and entering. It isn't any less breaking and entering than it would be if I had some high-tech way of getting that code.
That actually might not be breaking and entering. If you break into a car that is not yours, and steal it, it is theft. If you have the keys to a car that is not yours, it is "joyriding" IIRC. That could be just a CA law though.

However, it changes the situation from making a bad decision into a plot to cheat. Now if the five kids got together and decided to steal the password and use it before hand, that is something else, but if that had been the case, I imagine they would have all been expelled, as it is, only the kid that saw and used the password was expelled, which leads me to believe that it was just kids being fucking stupid and acting on impulse without thinking it through very well.
"Making a bad decision" is just a euphemism in this case for "deciding to cheat". How is that different from "a plot to cheat"? Do you really think the level of planning makes such a big difference? So what if it's a spur-of-the-moment thing? They still cheated, and that should go on their records.

You seem to think that unless this incident is completely wiped from her record, then she will be horribly punished for the rest of her life. That is quite frankly horseshit. She has plenty of opportunities to make amends. Going back and upgrading her diploma would show that she's done something to make up for what she did, which is far better than waltzing into university as if nothing happened. And if she manages to do that, and get into university, and get a degree, then this little high school indiscretion won't haunt her for the rest of her life. But right now, she is acting as if the slightest consequence is unacceptable, and that's utter bullshit. Quite frankly, she should not be allowed to enter any kind of university as long as she has that attitude.
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Re: Cheater sues when school bans her from graduation ceremony

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Havok wrote:You obviously didn't read the article either. No one "hacked" the computer system. There was no conspiracy. The student who was expelled saw a teachers password and decided to use it.
Fine. Unauthorized access of the school's computer system. Same difference. I was going over my accounts with the bank manager when he had to step out of the room to take a call, and I took that opportunity to move the decimal point a couple spaces to the right on my account balances. I'm still going to fucking jail if they catch me.
I'm gonna go out on a limb as say it went something like this:

Expelled: "Oh man I got Ms Teacher's system password today! I'm gonna change my grade in science!"

Student 1: "That's not a good idea."

Suing Student: "Well I could change the grade in the one class I took that I didn't do well in. That's the only class I need to get the better diploma."

Student 2: "Sweet! Change my PE grade!"

Student 3: "Yeah change my History grade!"

Student 1: "Oh well, I guess change my English grade. I hope we don't get caught."

Any way it went, it was kids making a dumbass decision. Not much of a surprise there, but it was not some grand scheme with an evil mastermind behind it. Also, whether or not it even effected other people is debatable, but it certainly is not on par with your stealing money example, which explicitly is hurting others.
Guess what? Any way you do it, the kids got in contact with each other and planned out an illegal action. That's the definition of a conspiracy.
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Re: Cheater sues when school bans her from graduation ceremony

Post by Havok »

Darth Wong wrote:
Havok wrote:Ah, so wanting someone to not get admitted to one college because of cheating means that they can just go apply to another one or wait until next year, and then all of a sudden they will not be a cheating bitch that should never get admitted? Yeah.
What are you, a fucking retard? I already said she has the option to go back, redo the course without cheating, and upgrade her diploma, thus demonstrating that she's capable of playing the game fairly.
Actually, she does not have the option to go back. She has graduated from high school. That is it. They only gave her the option to retake the test, which she refused. My point was that if you want her to "never" be admitted, you don't ever want her to be admitted. That is taking the punishment to far.
As I said, it seems as if people want her to be recognized as a cheater for the rest of her life, and that is taking the punishment to far. And I'm not talikng about her options, I'm talking about how people are responding in this thread.
Why shouldn't she be recognized as a cheater for the rest of her life? Are you saying that any record of this incident should be erased? How the fuck is that fair to all the people out there who don't cheat?
Well aside from college, the record, while not being erased, probably won't matter. Jobs don't look at high school transcripts. They just look at if you have your diploma, degree, masters etc.
And as I said, because people make mistakes. I pantsed my friend in middle school and got suspended for it, should I be known as that dirty pantser the rest of my life? Aerius, in a thread today, said that you have gotten drunk with him, should that label you as a drunk or drinker for the rest of your life? Absolutely not.
The people in this thread, and now you, are acting as if this girl is a habitual cheater and should be branded as such when you have no knowledge and certainly no proof that that is the case.
All we know is that she cheated on one test. She should be punished accordingly for that. It should be a far harsher punishment than she got. Does that mean she should be punished for life because of a bad decision made at age 18? Absolutely not.
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Re: Cheater sues when school bans her from graduation ceremony

Post by Isolder74 »

Darth Wong wrote:
Havok wrote:You obviously didn't read the article either. No one "hacked" the computer system. There was no conspiracy. The student who was expelled saw a teachers password and decided to use it.
And this changes the situation ... how?

If I see someone type in an entry code on a secure door and then use that code to gain entry to the building, it's breaking and entering. It isn't any less breaking and entering than it would be if I had some high-tech way of getting that code.
I work in the IT department at a university. I just for an example, know ways that I could with my clearances that I could do this very thing without peaking over the teacher's shoulder. The rule set place in my university would make no distinction between how this was done and the consequences. If a student, including me, is caught doing this they are expelled from the school and charges will be filed under embezzlement. Though Ferris Bueller's Day Off jokes about doing this this is a very serious thing for both me and my department. Not only does this student deserve to have this placed on her record she also deserve every bit of scorn and consequences she is getting. If she can't be honest in high school and has shown a complete disregard to the seriousness of what she was caught doing then she deserves to not be able to get into college until she proves that she can.

There is no point where she can sue about this mild and very slap on the hand punishment she was given by her school for this. Her actions alone make it very clear that she does not intend to learn from this at all and is a spoiled brat. Her parents, I don't care who they are, need to be sent a clear message. Cheating in any form will not be tolerated you got caught and too bad.

Defending the child is one thing but forcing a school to change punishment only on the grounds that I'm rich and I can sue is garbage. Sorry little girl but what you have done is the same as embezzling funds from a bank over the internet. You got caught and you aren't going to get away with it.
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Re: Cheater sues when school bans her from graduation ceremony

Post by Havok »

Darth Wong wrote:
Havok wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:And this changes the situation ... how?

If I see someone type in an entry code on a secure door and then use that code to gain entry to the building, it's breaking and entering. It isn't any less breaking and entering than it would be if I had some high-tech way of getting that code.
That actually might not be breaking and entering. If you break into a car that is not yours, and steal it, it is theft. If you have the keys to a car that is not yours, it is "joyriding" IIRC. That could be just a CA law though.

However, it changes the situation from making a bad decision into a plot to cheat. Now if the five kids got together and decided to steal the password and use it before hand, that is something else, but if that had been the case, I imagine they would have all been expelled, as it is, only the kid that saw and used the password was expelled, which leads me to believe that it was just kids being fucking stupid and acting on impulse without thinking it through very well.
"Making a bad decision" is just a euphemism in this case for "deciding to cheat". How is that different from "a plot to cheat"? Do you really think the level of planning makes such a big difference? So what if it's a spur-of-the-moment thing? They still cheated, and that should go on their records.
Of course it makes a fucking difference. That's like saying well you killed someone in a murderous uncontrollable rage and this other person planned to kill this other person, but you are both getting Murder One. Yeah, it doesn't work that way. We have degrees of wrong and right. And as I said, if all five of these kids plotted to steal the password to alter their grades, they probably would have all been expelled, so yeah it makes a damn big difference.
And I am not arguing that the fact that she cheated shouldn't be put on her record. Pay attention.
You seem to think that unless this incident is completely wiped from her record, then she will be horribly punished for the rest of her life.
Oh for fucks sake. That is not what I think, nor is it what I said. My point is that she shouldn't be punished for the rest of her life for it, which never being admitted to college, which is the attitude that some in the thread are taking, is just that, as it will keep her from getting a higher education and eliminate many possibilities for her future.
That is quite frankly horseshit. She has plenty of opportunities to make amends. Going back and upgrading her diploma would show that she's done something to make up for what she did, which is far better than waltzing into university as if nothing happened. And if she manages to do that, and get into university, and get a degree, then this little high school indiscretion won't haunt her for the rest of her life. But right now, she is acting as if the slightest consequence is unacceptable, and that's utter bullshit. Quite frankly, she should not be allowed to enter any kind of university as long as she has that attitude.
As I said, she has graduated. She can't upgrade her diploma any longer. The idiot blew that chance. I do agree with you though that she should have to make some sort of amends before she should be allowed to advance, however, it doesn't look like that is going to be the case outside of just not getting to walk the stage at her graduation. :roll:
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Re: Cheater sues when school bans her from graduation ceremony

Post by Havok »

Isolder74 wrote:Defending the child is one thing but forcing a school to change punishment only on the grounds that I'm rich and I can sue is garbage. Sorry little girl but what you have done is the same as embezzling funds from a bank over the internet. You got caught and you aren't going to get away with it.
Oh come the fuck on already. Cheating on a test/having your friend change your grade in high school IS NOT the same as embezzling money from a fucking bank. Are you fucking kidding me?
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Re: Cheater sues when school bans her from graduation ceremony

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aerius wrote:
Havok wrote:You obviously didn't read the article either. No one "hacked" the computer system. There was no conspiracy. The student who was expelled saw a teachers password and decided to use it.
Fine. Unauthorized access of the school's computer system. Same difference. I was going over my accounts with the bank manager when he had to step out of the room to take a call, and I took that opportunity to move the decimal point a couple spaces to the right on my account balances. I'm still going to fucking jail if they catch me.
I'm gonna go out on a limb as say it went something like this:

Expelled: "Oh man I got Ms Teacher's system password today! I'm gonna change my grade in science!"

Student 1: "That's not a good idea."

Suing Student: "Well I could change the grade in the one class I took that I didn't do well in. That's the only class I need to get the better diploma."

Student 2: "Sweet! Change my PE grade!"

Student 3: "Yeah change my History grade!"

Student 1: "Oh well, I guess change my English grade. I hope we don't get caught."

Any way it went, it was kids making a dumbass decision. Not much of a surprise there, but it was not some grand scheme with an evil mastermind behind it. Also, whether or not it even effected other people is debatable, but it certainly is not on par with your stealing money example, which explicitly is hurting others.
Guess what? Any way you do it, the kids got in contact with each other and planned out an illegal action. That's the definition of a conspiracy.
You do understand the concept of letter vs spirit of the law yes? For that matter do you understand that stealing money from a bank i.e. stealing from other people, is not the same as cheating on a high school test?

And actually, sorry, but cheating on a high school test, is not an "illegal" action. Maybe, going into the schools computer (the teachers personal computer?) and changing grades, could be, but they didn't take legal action, because they understand that this was not a criminal conspiracy and that it was a group of dumb 18 year olds doing a dumbassed thing. I mean I get that this is an intellectual place that puts a high value on education and the people here have worked hard to get what they have earned, but equating this girl, and the other students, with criminals is just going to far.
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Re: Cheater sues when school bans her from graduation ceremony

Post by Master of Ossus »

Havok wrote:That actually might not be breaking and entering. If you break into a car that is not yours, and steal it, it is theft. If you have the keys to a car that is not yours, it is "joyriding" IIRC. That could be just a CA law though.
No, it's not the law in CA. We have two vehicle theft codes:
1. Vehicle Code Section 10851(a) Any person who drives or takes a vehicle not his or her own, without the consent of the owner thereof, and with intent either to permanently or temporarily deprive the owner thereof of his or her title to or possession of the vehicle, whether with or without intent to steal the vehicle, or any person who is a party or an accessory to or an accomplice in the driving or unauthorized taking or stealing, is guilty of a public offense and, upon conviction thereof, shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail for not more than one year or in the state prison or by a fine of not more than five thousand dollars ($5,000), or by both the fine and imprisonment.

but:

2. if the value of the car is greater than $400, then the DA can bring the case under the grand theft provisions (CA Penal Code Section 487).
However, it changes the situation from making a bad decision into a plot to cheat. Now if the five kids got together and decided to steal the password and use it before hand, that is something else, but if that had been the case, I imagine they would have all been expelled, as it is, only the kid that saw and used the password was expelled, which leads me to believe that it was just kids being fucking stupid and acting on impulse without thinking it through very well.
How does that transform her attendance of the graduation ceremony into a right?
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Re: Cheater sues when school bans her from graduation ceremony

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Master of Ossus wrote:
Havok wrote:That actually might not be breaking and entering. If you break into a car that is not yours, and steal it, it is theft. If you have the keys to a car that is not yours, it is "joyriding" IIRC. That could be just a CA law though.
No, it's not the law in CA. We have two vehicle theft codes:
1. Vehicle Code Section 10851(a) Any person who drives or takes a vehicle not his or her own, without the consent of the owner thereof, and with intent either to permanently or temporarily deprive the owner thereof of his or her title to or possession of the vehicle, whether with or without intent to steal the vehicle, or any person who is a party or an accessory to or an accomplice in the driving or unauthorized taking or stealing, is guilty of a public offense and, upon conviction thereof, shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail for not more than one year or in the state prison or by a fine of not more than five thousand dollars ($5,000), or by both the fine and imprisonment.

but:

2. if the value of the car is greater than $400, then the DA can bring the case under the grand theft provisions (CA Penal Code Section 487).
Well shit. I swore there was some sort of charge that was somewhere between these. Conceded.
However, it changes the situation from making a bad decision into a plot to cheat. Now if the five kids got together and decided to steal the password and use it before hand, that is something else, but if that had been the case, I imagine they would have all been expelled, as it is, only the kid that saw and used the password was expelled, which leads me to believe that it was just kids being fucking stupid and acting on impulse without thinking it through very well.
How does that transform her attendance of the graduation ceremony into a right?
Yeah, try reading the whole thread.
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Re: Cheater sues when school bans her from graduation ceremony

Post by Isolder74 »

Havok wrote:
Isolder74 wrote:Defending the child is one thing but forcing a school to change punishment only on the grounds that I'm rich and I can sue is garbage. Sorry little girl but what you have done is the same as embezzling funds from a bank over the internet. You got caught and you aren't going to get away with it.
Oh come the fuck on already. Cheating on a test/having your friend change your grade in high school IS NOT the same as embezzling money from a fucking bank. Are you fucking kidding me?
Whether you think it is the same is immaterial. In the eyes of the law in a computer system that has student's personal information on-file that the teacher has clearance to access IT IS!!!!! Identity theft is SERIOUS business! If they could get to the grades they can get to other information too.

Even if the penalties aren't the same both are crimes and both have to live with the result and penalties associated with them.
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Re: Cheater sues when school bans her from graduation ceremony

Post by The Yosemite Bear »

Darth Wong wrote:
Havok wrote:You obviously didn't read the article either. No one "hacked" the computer system. There was no conspiracy. The student who was expelled saw a teachers password and decided to use it.
And this changes the situation ... how?

If I see someone type in an entry code on a secure door and then use that code to gain entry to the building, it's breaking and entering. It isn't any less breaking and entering than it would be if I had some high-tech way of getting that code.
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Re: Cheater sues when school bans her from graduation ceremony

Post by Havok »

Isolder74 wrote:
Havok wrote:
Isolder74 wrote:Defending the child is one thing but forcing a school to change punishment only on the grounds that I'm rich and I can sue is garbage. Sorry little girl but what you have done is the same as embezzling funds from a bank over the internet. You got caught and you aren't going to get away with it.
Oh come the fuck on already. Cheating on a test/having your friend change your grade in high school IS NOT the same as embezzling money from a fucking bank. Are you fucking kidding me?
Whether you think it is the same is immaterial. In the eyes of the law in a computer system that has student's personal information on-file that the teacher has clearance to access IT IS!!!!! Identity theft is SERIOUS business! If they could get to the grades they can get to other information too.

Even if the penalties aren't the same both are crimes and both have to live with the result and penalties associated with them.
No. And bullshit. You claimed that they are THE SAME. If they are THE SAME "in the eyes of the law" then this girl, and her friends, would be in jail right now. They are not THE SAME. They aren't even close to being THE SAME. You are fucking wrong.
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Re: Cheater sues when school bans her from graduation ceremony

Post by Axis Kast »

"Making a bad decision" is just a euphemism in this case for "deciding to cheat". How is that different from "a plot to cheat"? Do you really think the level of planning makes such a big difference? So what if it's a spur-of-the-moment thing? They still cheated, and that should go on their records.
Certainly. It would be inappropriate were the school to do otherwise. If the administration of this individual's case follows the typical pattern, her "indiscretion" will be marked on her transcript, which will doubtless result in meaningful consequences. As mentioned earlier, an earlier offer of admission may be rescinded. The student may also be obligated to conduct a detailed self-criticism, which is standard procedure for those who apply to college having already been convicted of an episode of academic dishonesty.
he has plenty of opportunities to make amends. Going back and upgrading her diploma would show that she's done something to make up for what she did, which is far better than waltzing into university as if nothing happened. And if she manages to do that, and get into university, and get a degree, then this little high school indiscretion won't haunt her for the rest of her life. But right now, she is acting as if the slightest consequence is unacceptable, and that's utter bullshit. Quite frankly, she should not be allowed to enter any kind of university as long as she has that attitude.
I am extremely curious why you believe that taking a year to retake a single course is a good use of anyone's time, even in pursuit of a useful "life lesson." In this case, your medicine, because so diversionary, may be worse than leaving the student to languish even if she is not admitted to college. The matter is complicated by the great possibility that other observers would not interpret a choice to retake the course as a sign of intentional contrition, thereby further diluting the benefits.

It behooves us, too, if we are ethical, to ask what is a "normal" punishment for somebody in this girl's position. The answer is, "Exactly what she got."

Given the popular emphasis on the sheer ceremony of graduation; the credibility of the argument that the investments of four years, and membership in the community, should not necessarily be negated by one act of academic treachery; and the potential that the lawyer is really an expression of her parents' efforts and not her own, I don't see how the view that this individual hasn't learned her lesson is at all justified. The school does have a right to deny her a place. I'm just not inclined to hold the protest against her.


During my academic career, I was many times suspicious that other students were cheating, but never in a position to render decisive proof or make a fair accusation. I am also well aware of the "tax" paid by excellent students at universities where grade inflation is the norm (often motivated by the hard-nosed argument that before it is a place of intellectual endeavor, a university is a business), some professors nurse grudges, and others are vocal about their desire to research rather than to teach. I have to say, though, that I never felt that I was in competition with anybody who might have been cheating. My sense was often that the material I handed in was not very susceptible to it, and that soon enough, students without a firm grasp of the material or the concepts necessary to succeed would hit a brick wall.
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Re: Cheater sues when school bans her from graduation ceremony

Post by Isolder74 »

Havok wrote:
Isolder74 wrote:Even if the penalties aren't the same both are crimes and both have to live with the result and penalties associated with them.
No. And bullshit. You claimed that they are THE SAME. If they are THE SAME "in the eyes of the law" then this girl, and her friends, would be in jail right now. They are not THE SAME. They aren't even close to being THE SAME. You are fucking wrong.
They are same in that they are both crimes. Writing it off as tiny doesn't change a thing. If this girl doesn't want to live with the results of breaking a rule that's too bad. Not liking the punishment is no excuse for wasting public money with a lawsuit because their precious daughter didn't get to walk down a graduation ceremony because of the results of her own actions.
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Re: Cheater sues when school bans her from graduation ceremony

Post by Havok »

Isolder74 wrote:
Havok wrote:
Isolder74 wrote:Even if the penalties aren't the same both are crimes and both have to live with the result and penalties associated with them.
No. And bullshit. You claimed that they are THE SAME. If they are THE SAME "in the eyes of the law" then this girl, and her friends, would be in jail right now. They are not THE SAME. They aren't even close to being THE SAME. You are fucking wrong.
They are same in that they are both crimes. Writing it off as tiny doesn't change a thing. If this girl doesn't want to live with the results of breaking a rule that's too bad. Not liking the punishment is no excuse for wasting public money with a lawsuit because their precious daughter didn't get to walk down a graduation ceremony because of the results of her own actions.
Backpeddal all you want. You said changing a grade in the school computer was "the same" as embezzling money from a bank. It is not. In fact, you have not presented any evidence that what the students did was even a crime at all, except for your say so. So either do so, or shut the fuck up.

That said, you also need to read the rest of the thread as my position has never been anything BUT this girl needs to take responsibilities for her actions, the punishment should be far more serious than missing a graduation ceremony, her parents are fucking idiots, and her and their sense of entitlement is disgusting. So why don't you just shut the fuck up in general and read before you open your dumb ass mouth.
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Re: Cheater sues when school bans her from graduation ceremony

Post by Isolder74 »

Havok wrote:
Isolder74 wrote:They are same in that they are both crimes. Writing it off as tiny doesn't change a thing. If this girl doesn't want to live with the results of breaking a rule that's too bad. Not liking the punishment is no excuse for wasting public money with a lawsuit because their precious daughter didn't get to walk down a graduation ceremony because of the results of her own actions.
Backpeddal all you want. You said changing a grade in the school computer was "the same" as embezzling money from a bank. It is not. In fact, you have not presented any evidence that what the students did was even a crime at all, except for your say so. So either do so, or shut the fuck up.
Whether you like it or not it is one step away. If you don't like this being equated with computer embezzlement, too bad.

Ethically this is no different. Using a computer to commit fraud takes place in both cases. The crimes are similar so stop complaining when they are compared.
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Re: Cheater sues when school bans her from graduation ceremony

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Isolder74 wrote:
Havok wrote:
Isolder74 wrote:They are same in that they are both crimes. Writing it off as tiny doesn't change a thing. If this girl doesn't want to live with the results of breaking a rule that's too bad. Not liking the punishment is no excuse for wasting public money with a lawsuit because their precious daughter didn't get to walk down a graduation ceremony because of the results of her own actions.
Backpeddal all you want. You said changing a grade in the school computer was "the same" as embezzling money from a bank. It is not. In fact, you have not presented any evidence that what the students did was even a crime at all, except for your say so. So either do so, or shut the fuck up.
Whether you like it or not it is one step away. If you don't like this being equated with computer embezzlement, too bad.
So it is not a crime, but only one step away. Uh huh. :roll: and if If I don't like your made up laws, then too bad? I'll accept your concession on the matter then.
Ethically this is no different. Using a computer to commit fraud takes place in both cases. The crimes are similar so stop complaining when they are compared.
Ah, so now you go from it is "the same", to ethically no different and similar. Yeah, you can shut the fuck up anytime now.
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Re: Cheater sues when school bans her from graduation ceremony

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Havok wrote:And as I said, because people make mistakes. I pantsed my friend in middle school and got suspended for it, should I be known as that dirty pantser the rest of my life?
Why not? It's not as if youthful pantsing is a particularly important thing to know about someone either way.
Aerius, in a thread today, said that you have gotten drunk with him, should that label you as a drunk or drinker for the rest of your life? Absolutely not.
Of course not, because he's just talking bullshit. I've never gotten drunk with him or anyone. I've had a drink or two before, but I've never been drunk. However, on that note, let's take that to the next level: suppose we have someone who has a history of alcoholism: does a future prospective employer not deserve to know about such things?
All we know is that she cheated on one test.
Wrong. We know that she cheated on one test, and she has such a lousy attitude that she sued the school for not letting her proudly walk the graduation ceremony afterwards.
She should be punished accordingly for that. It should be a far harsher punishment than she got. Does that mean she should be punished for life because of a bad decision made at age 18? Absolutely not.
You keep returning to this "punished for life" bullshit, as if desolation and failure are the only possible outcomes after getting rejected at Indiana University.
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Re: Cheater sues when school bans her from graduation ceremony

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Axis Kast wrote:I am extremely curious why you believe that taking a year to retake a single course is a good use of anyone's time, even in pursuit of a useful "life lesson."
Who said anything about doing the whole year just to retake that course? She should have flunked for the whole school year and been made to repeat it all. I said that from the beginning.
It behooves us, too, if we are ethical, to ask what is a "normal" punishment for somebody in this girl's position. The answer is, "Exactly what she got."
I might have agreed with you, until the lawsuit. The lawsuit indicates a massive sense of entitlement and a generally horrible attitude all around. Any university worth its salt should reject her application until such time as she can demonstrate that she has accomplished something good after this fiasco, in order to demonstrate that she has learned something. Universities, like employers, attempt to take a student's attitude into account. That's why they ask you about your extracurricular activities.

This is not a whole lot different from how employers operate. If you fuck up, that's going to haunt you until you do something to redeem yourself. You don't say "Well, I was in line for a promotion and I think I should get it anyway because it was just a fuckup".
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Re: Cheater sues when school bans her from graduation ceremony

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Darth Wong wrote:
Aerius, in a thread today, said that you have gotten drunk with him, should that label you as a drunk or drinker for the rest of your life? Absolutely not.
Of course not, because he's just talking bullshit. I've never gotten drunk with him or anyone. I've had a drink or two before, but I've never been drunk. However, on that note, let's take that to the next level: suppose we have someone who has a history of alcoholism: does a future prospective employer not deserve to know about such things?
My bad on the first part. He seemed to not be joking.
As for alcoholism, in my opinion, yes, an employer should know about that, unfortunately there is no way to force someone to volunteer that information, and they have to rely on the initial drug test and and other signs that may crop up after they are hired.
The difference is, you are comparing a person who has a habitual problem with an addictive substance to someone that cheated on a test one time. They are not equivalent. Now, if it is shown that the girl is a habitual cheater and this isn't the only time that this has happened then I will gladly agree with your point. However based on what we know and the extremely, basically non-existent punishment this girl received, I don't think that is the case.
All we know is that she cheated on one test.
Wrong. We know that she cheated on one test, and she has such a lousy attitude that she sued the school for not letting her proudly walk the graduation ceremony afterwards.
Fair enough. We both have already acknowledged that that is indeed the case.
She should be punished accordingly for that. It should be a far harsher punishment than she got. Does that mean she should be punished for life because of a bad decision made at age 18? Absolutely not.
You keep returning to this "punished for life" bullshit, as if desolation and failure are the only possible outcomes after getting rejected at Indiana University.
When I say "punished for life" I am not referring to her getting into IU, but the "never admit" policy for punishment people seem to have. It is reasonable to think that if they think she shouldn't get into IU because she cheated, that she shouldn't be admitted into any University because she cheated. That is indeed a lifelong punishment, and I keep returning to it because it seems to still be the attitude people have in this thread.
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Re: Cheater sues when school bans her from graduation ceremony

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You know, I'm really getting tired of having my posts answered by vague references to implications made by unnamed "people".
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Re: Cheater sues when school bans her from graduation ceremony

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Darth Wong wrote:You know, I'm really getting tired of having my posts answered by vague references to implications made by unnamed "people".
OK, well I can say Aerius, Maybird, Isolder every time if you would like.
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Re: Cheater sues when school bans her from graduation ceremony

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Havok wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:You know, I'm really getting tired of having my posts answered by vague references to implications made by unnamed "people".
OK, well I can say Aerius, Maybird, Isolder every time if you would like.
And you have the quotes where they say that this spoiled brat should be barred from all institutions of higher learning for the rest of her life?
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Re: Cheater sues when school bans her from graduation ceremony

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Darth Wong wrote:
Havok wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:You know, I'm really getting tired of having my posts answered by vague references to implications made by unnamed "people".
OK, well I can say Aerius, Maybird, Isolder every time if you would like.
And you have the quotes where they say that this spoiled brat should be barred from all institutions of higher learning for the rest of her life?
As I have said many times, it is an "attitude". And I have already posted the relevant quotes that I gathered it from, but I will post them again since you've decided to forget.
Mayabird wrote:Somehow I doubt this means she's learned her lesson. Come on, Indiana University, you know you want to kick her out on her ass while laughing maniacally.
aerius wrote:Someone needs to inform the university about the cheating bitch so she never gets admitted.
Oni Koneko Damien wrote: Why should any post-secondary institution waste its time with her?
As I said before, and you already addressed, take those as you will, but when someone says "never" it means never. If you want her kicked out of one college for cheating, you must want her kicked out of all of them. If my interpretation of these comments don't mesh with yours, too bad.
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