Terminator Salvation

[Stark]

So how the fuck is it that the resistance somehow can build "EZ-Time Machines" in the past in T:SCC, if they only had control of the time machine long enough to figure how to push the "redial" button to send back two operatives to 1984 and 1994/95?

In T:SCC the Connor's forces have time travel. You just have to deal with that reality (if you even knew and aren't just arguing from ignorance like usual).

Why would they be given the information? In the original T1 novelization, if the Terminator completed it's mission, it's standby orders were to go into some deep hiding place such as an unused mine and go into hibernate mode until 2029.

So you're saying they couldn't send a Terminator back in time with time travel information because why would they do that? Are you a fucking idiot? What if - get this - they wanted to take advantage of the Terminator's memory to transmit technology into the past?

Scary, isn't it? It's so simple!

2029 - 1984 = 45 years

1945 - 1905 = 40 years

Hypothetically, as an exercise, let's send Stark's computer back 45 years to 1964.

It would certainly cause a lot of head scratching; especially when they took out the DVD drive in his computer:

"Hey guys, look; a semi-conductor laser capable of operating at higher than room temperature!

"Didn't that guy named Hall have to use liquid nitrogen to cool his semi-conductor laser to like 300 degrees below zero farenheit in order to get it working two years ago?"

"Amazing."

(The invention of the room temperature solid state laser is six years in the future BTW)

That's just one thing off the top of my head. Another good example is the precision machining needed to actually make the time machine parts themselves -- you wouldn't be able to make a R-4360 in 1905 among other things; due to metallurgy being lacking along with the machining needed to make the cylinder heads.

Oh wait, I forgot that Stark's instant rebuttal to any argument is "LOL".

More irrelevance! This nonsense is clearly important to a discussion about a series where it's been shown onscreen it's quite possible to build a time machine pre-judgement day using the knowledge contained within a terminator.

Oh wait, Shep is ignorantly gasbagging about something he doesn't like! Get this; I don't like T:SCC either. I think it's pompous silliness. But that doesn't mean I wilfully misrepresent events or claim they're impossible.

[tim31]

Well, I liked the movie. I cheered with delight at the Arnie homage. I cheered with delight at the GnR/motorcycle homage. I wasn't disappointed with any of it really, although I acknowledge people's criticism of Act III.

[Peptuck]

So how the fuck is it that the resistance somehow can build "EZ-Time Machines" in the past in T:SCC, if they only had control of the time machine long enough to figure how to push the "redial" button to send back two operatives to 1984 and 1994/95?

Because of goddamn differing timelines, dumbass.

TSCC made it pretty clear that they pushed back Judgement Day to 2012, which means they're dealing with an alternate future which in turn means they're dealing with an alternate resistance with a different - and clearly superior - tech base.

And calling it an "EZ-Time Machine" is kind of amusing, considering the time machine they used was so primitive and unreliable that it blew up the goddamned bank they were inside after activating it.

[Anguirus]

Shep's criticism of TSCC for (deliberate) inconsistency with T1 is really funny considering the basic, "a small child could point this out" plot holes in T:S. If you like T:S better, fine, but it's clear that a lot more thought went into SCC. It's not perfect, but it's decent (and at least one of its plot flaws, making John too old during the events of T2, is inherited from T3 so I don't really blame them for that one).

The massive changes that have been inflicted in the timeline are actually a running theme of the show. Kyle is no longer born after Judgment Day, Derek meets a lover who turns out to be from an alternate future that he created, and there is a T-1000 deliberately creating a cuddlier competitor to Skynet in order to make the future not suck. In other words, it follows from the "future is not set" theme of T2.

[tezunegari]

And calling it an "EZ-Time Machine" is kind of amusing, considering the time machine they used was so primitive and unreliable that it blew up the goddamned bank they were inside after activating it.

I don't think that the bank-o-time machine was unreliable. Sarah fired an anti-Terminator tazer the moment the bubble formed.
So it might have been an interaction between time bubble and the weapon (either pure interaction or lacking failsafes).
Unfortunately we only see a time displacement interacting with weapons fire once.

[hongi]

Saw it, still not sure what to make of it. It wasn't bad...I liked a fair chunk of it, until John Connor started making the speech to the Resistance. His message seemed pretty hokey to be honest. If we kill civilians, we're no better than the machines, so stand down...I don't know, I'm not sure I would have followed that line of reasoning.

I was a little confused as to why the nuclear fuel cells were so out in the open. Granted, it was a machine factory, but still...just sitting on a table?

How did Skynet know that Marcus would survive the nuclear explosion that it set off in its R&D facility in the beginning?

[Shroom Man 777]

Could've been an airburst set from a distance? *shrugs*

[hongi]

Could've been an airburst set from a distance? *shrugs*

I really thought it was a self-destruct mechanism from *inside* the base. But even if it was an airburst...why did Skynet put Marcus Wright inside there in the first place? Only the data needed to be there as bait. He's one of a kind and extremely valuable, why take the chance? Seeing as how everyone inside the base died, it seems like the airburst was pretty effective. Skynet would have to be an idiot to risk losing such a valuable piece of hardware.

Marcus didn't need to be in there, he could have been dropped off in some random place.

[Shroom Man 777]

It seemed to be one of the more peripheral Skynet bases, being a short walk away from the forward Resistance bases (nearer to Connor than Los Angeles and wherever that huge Skynet base was). Obviously since Skynet couldn't have rented Marcus a car or something...

[hongi]

It seemed to be one of the more peripheral Skynet bases, being a short walk away from the forward Resistance bases (nearer to Connor than Los Angeles and wherever that huge Skynet base was). Obviously since Skynet couldn't have rented Marcus a car or something...

Why not just drop him off at the edge of LA with one of the HKs? He wakes up a few hours later and voila. Marcus wasn't even inside a protective shelter or cocoon, I remember seeing his body on a table. Heck, I think Connor might have even seen it briefly.

Okay, tell me if I'm being stupid (not too implausible) and totally missed the plot of the movie. What was Skynet's plan from the beginning of the movie? To lure Connor into its own base? And it could only do that by...what, capturing his dad? And it could only capture Kyle by using a terminator to get close to Kyle. Skynet then assumes Marcus will survive long enough to get to Connor in the resistance base to tell Connor that Kyle's been captured. Or something like that. I just don't understand why Skynet wanted Connor inside the base in the first place. Surely there were easier ways to kill him, like letting him throw himself at the base's defenses in the mistaken belief that the signal would actually work.

[Faqa]

Ok, this movie isn't nearly as good 24 hours after watching(as opposed to my opinion of "distilled awesome" right after leaving the cinema). It was clearly made by folks who LIKE the franchise and who wanted to shake it up.... but they don't seem to have been too bright, overall. Although the homages to T1 and T2 are a definite plus.

+ Awesome production values. Really cool fight scenes, EXCELLENT sound work(this is a movie that requires a movie theater).

+ AH-NULD. My theater didn't burst out in applause, admittedly, but it was still pretty cool. Also points for getting in the three signature lines of the franchise: "Come with me if you want to live", "I'll be back" and "No fate but that which we make".

- "We want to kill John Connor and Kyle Reese! Our plan for doing this is to let them both into our top R&D base next to a bunch of nuclear weapons where we will throw only two Termies at them, despite having dozens at least. Also, we will tell a possibly rogue T-800 our evil plan. For shits and giggles. LOL."

...

Yeah.

- Why didn't Skynet just shoot Reese?

+ The new characters. Marcus and Blair were very well drawn, considering they were new characters in a movie that was clearly relying on the knowledge of the previous three. Blair's scene with the scavengers conveyed a sense of helplessness and fear very effectively. Marcus's seeming stoicness to everything around him turned out to actually make sense.

- Why didn't Skynet just shoot Reese?

+ John Connor was a secondary character here. Loved that. He's off-screen, roaring, convinced he IS the main character. Skynet thinks he is to. Little do they know.

- Which leads us into the EPIC FAIL that was the ending. YOU WERE BUILDING UP TO KILLING OFF JOHN CONNOR THE ENTIRE DAMNED MOVIE. It even fits, ultimately with the whole "No Fate" thing.

Cheap as all fuck.

- WHY THE UNHOLY FLYING FUCK DIDN'T SKYNET JUST SHOOT REESE?! They obviously want him dead, though this makes little sense(more on that in a minute). The only witness to his captivity is Marcus and Skynet has full control over his perception. It makes no sense. Hell, it might have been even more dramatic to have Ah-nuld step out of the cell over Reese's body.

Overall, I liked the movie but... it could have been a lot better.


Now, as to the timeline issue:

Is there anything wrong with the idea that the timeline is, for lack of a better term, "self-correcting"? Against paradoxes, anyway?

A few years after 1986, a nuclear war is initiated by Skynet, a defense computer created by Cyberdyne Systems. The survivors band together around a charismatic man of unknown origin named John Connor. They push Skynet to the brink and defeat it. In it's last gasp, it sends an Austrian bodybuilder back in time to track down and kill Connor's mother, known to have lived in L.A. Connor sends back Kyle Reese to protect her without thinking of the implications.

Now, the universe has been knocked askew. The original Sarah Connor was a waitress, who no doubt met the father of her child on a blind date set up by Ginger or whatever.. The Terminator is a life-changing event for her. She will NEVER meet John's father, never go on that date. Hey, maybe the guy was in one of the areas where Kyle and Ahnuld spray bullets willy-nilly? Maybe Sarah was originally raped by one of the punks Arnie kills at the begining? Who knows?

Regardless, for the purposes of siring the leader of humanity, he's gone. The self-correction is to have Kyle Reese father John Connor.

Would this school of thought do a decent job of trying to explain the timeline? Since the whole "a new timeline is created for every jump" may be simpler, but then it makes no sense for either side to try so hard.

[Oskuro]

Ok, saw it on Friday night, and my opinion is.... a completely qualified meh.

The harvester and the Arnie homage were awesome, the rest felt... disjointed.
Now, I've read that article regarding the original script, and I would have preferred that, except for the whole ANGEL bussiness, and the need to show the T-1000, T-X and the time machine. On the other hand, the whole project ANGEL (seaside resort) idea would explain one of my major complaints about the whole franchise: Why would Skynet bother with extermination camps? I understand the reference to the Nazi camps, but Skynet has no population to keep out of the loop, no external nations that might disagree, nor does it care about the cities. The reasonable action in the 7-11 scene would have been to saturate they are with plasma bolts, rathr than have a complex machine put itself in harms way to pick up a few humans.

Also, a feeling I had during the whole movie was that it was more of a sequel to T-1 than to T-2 or T-3, what, with Connor being such an asshole to a cyborg despite his experiences with Uncle Bob (and Cyberdine being operative before J-Day, wich could be rationalized, but does take a lot away from T-2).

But anyway, this movie was lacking in the thing the Terminator movies are actually about, and that is, Terminators. We see few of them (sorry, the HKs are cool, but don't count), and they are asinine. Why did the T-800 rip that T-600 in half? What point was to it? I expected him to pick up the minigun (You know, naked T-800 with a minigun, that would have been awesome) but no, the poor T600 was just in the way... Shooting at your targets and doing a better job of trying to kill them. Argh.

And I will not forgive the lack of the original theme. You go to all the trouble of having the title resemble the original, yet you forget the memorable theme. This is not a reboot, is a continuation of the franchise, you don't need to alter the theme to separate yourself from the previous movies! You need to embrace it! Specially if it is such an awesome theme!

The next movie in the franchise better be fucking Citizen T-Kane, or I'll turn Summer Glau into a cyborg so she can lay some well deserved ass kicking on them.

On the other hand, if a T:SCC direct to DVD movie had more success than T:S, that would be delightfully ironic.

[Shroom Man 777]

Show the T-1000 and the T-X? WHERE?!

[TheLostVikings]

But anyway, this movie was lacking in the thing the Terminator movies are actually about, and that is, Terminators. We see few of them (sorry, the HKs are cool, but don't count), and they are asinine. Why did the T-800 rip that T-600 in half? What point was to it? I expected him to pick up the minigun (You know, naked T-800 with a minigun, that would have been awesome) but no, the poor T600 was just in the way... Shooting at your targets and doing a better job of trying to kill them. Argh.

The worst part is that one of the trailers actually shows Ahnulds naked feet walk up to the minigun and picking it up, meaning they must have actually filmed it at some point, yet decided to throw it away

[hongi]

Anyhow, I ran across an article that explains some of the weirdness at the end of the film. Basically, Reese was originally to have a MUCH bigger role, Blair a somewhat bigger role, and Connor a practically nonexistent one. Plus Skynet was actually running a seaside resort. o_0 They were basically rewriting the script during shooting, which eliminated some real bullshit perpetrated by the original writers but introduced the gaping "Why Don't Ya Just Shoot 'Im" plothole.

I actually like some of the ideas in there. We've had a movie without John Connor before, Terminator 1. I don't see why we need him as a central character yet again after 2 and 3.

The best parts of T4 for me were with Kyle and Marcus, I wouldn't have minded a film that focused largely on them. Yeah yeah, it's not a big war-epic with Connor leading the human armies like some wanted - but the current movie isn't either. In fact according to the link, the first two thirds of the movie were pretty similar to the original script.

One of the criticisms mentioned in the link really struck home for me:

In effect what they've done with their undercooked third act is make a movie that's a TV episode - in the end everything is more or less back at the status quo. And by backgrounding Kyle and robbing him of his third act heroics, the finished film has taken away its only other good reason to exist, namely that it's the beginnings of the Connor/Reese friendship.

The Terminator is on TV and I just realized that the T-800 killed Sarah's roommate's boyfriend by basically just throwing him around until he died. Skynet must've not bothered programming complicated close quarters combat techniques into its cyborgs since they really don't need jew-jitsu to kill squishy humans, just their hard metal fists. The Terminator only attacked Marcus Wright's weakspot because the guy was becoming a nuisance. Against a puny fleshling like John Connor, it didn't need to go for heart-shots.

In that respect, I quite liked the TX. Puncing through people's chests, smacking the other cop in the face for an instakill and then driving the car with said arm through chest? Awesome. She killed the boyfriend with the saw, killed the general guy with a gun, killed the lieutenants with a gun...no dicking around, she just got on with it.

- I wonder if there is any fan fiction that combines the Terminator franchise with the Matrix trilogy. They could fit together seamlessly.

I remember there was one here where Skynet was fighting against the Machines...we had HKs vs Squiddies. Can't remember the name though.

[Oskuro]

Show the T-1000 and the T-X? WHERE?!

On the article explaining what the script would have been, there's a secene where Marcus is led by Dr.Dead-by-Cancer (who is a cyborg too) around the project ANGEL building, and we were suppposed to get glimpses of the T-1000 and T-X as prototypes (I guess much like the HK protototypes shown in T-3). To me that's pointless fanservice, I mean, why develop an anti-terminator terminator (T-X) when your termies haven't been reprogrammed yet?

Also, a lot of the original script ended up in the final film. For example, those shadowy figures on the windows above the prisoners that got mentioned a few pages earlier, could pretty well be project ANGEL "inmates" or somesuch.

Read the article here.

The worst part is that one of the trailers actually shows Ahnulds naked feet walk up to the minigun and picking it up, meaning they must have actually filmed it at some point, yet decided to throw it away

Yeah, I remember that from the trailers too. I was horribly dissapointed when he just stepped over and went for the shove-fu fight of doom.

In that respect, I quite liked the TX. Puncing through people's chests, smacking the other cop in the face for an instakill and then driving the car with said arm through chest? Awesome. She killed the boyfriend with the saw, killed the general guy with a gun, killed the lieutenants with a gun...no dicking around, she just got on with it.

The Terminator from T-1 was pretty much as awesome. His first interaction with a human involved punching through his chest, and when hunting the alternate Sarah's he just shot them dead with, no bullshit. As for Sarah's roomate's boyfriend, he doesn't throw him around until he dies, the Terminator puts him through a door, instantly killing him.

[Shroom Man 777]

Actually, the Terminator doesn't just throw him out of the door, instantly killing him. While Ginger is out making her sandwich because she is hungry after lots of sex, a few scenes go to Boyfriend getting trashed by the Terminator, but we see a bit where the Boyfriend struggles and manages to make the Terminator trip (or tackle it to the ground or something). If I recall correctly.

[Oskuro]

I'll have to rewatch that scene.

Regarding the point of why didn't Skynet shoot Kyle Reese, in the original script Skynet had no idea about who Kyle was. Wich made a lot more sense.

Darn, the more I think about it, the more I come to the realization that the whole project ANGEL bullshit might have been forgivable in exchange for a more consistent movie. One with the original theme. And Skynet not being a ludicrous face on a screen. I mean, darn, we waited so long to finally meet Skynet, and we get that?! At least the über-machine from the Matrix was somewhat impressive (and it was literally called Deus Ex Machina), this Skynet just sucks.

[Shroom Man 777]

Skynet doesn't need goddamn personification.

[Oskuro]

^Agreed. But if you're going to personificate it, at least make it AWESOME. You know, as in crushing little Savannah Weaver's arm while stating "I KNOW WHAT YOUR ARE TRYING TO DO" awesome.

[white_rabbit]

Saw it today.

Pretty good, I think I enjoyed watching it more than I did the new Trek film, quite a few bits that made me twitch out of SOD for a sec, but not enough that I couldn't enjoy the film.

My brother commented that in a few scenes it seemed more like God of War: Marcus Wright and that it would be a let down if we don't get him in the next movie.

I've noticed people talking about the lack of plasma weapons, but while we don't see pew-pew purple beams, we do get some fireball guns with crackling electrical arcing in the explosions, so presumably they aren't just all just autocannons or something.

[Shroom Man 777]

The only lack of plasma weapons we see is the lack of manportable ones, but the war can't start with everyone and their Terminator-sniffing dogs having pew-pew layzors anyway.

[neoolong]

^Agreed. But if you're going to personificate it, at least make it AWESOME. You know, as in crushing little Savannah Weaver's arm while stating "I KNOW WHAT YOUR ARE TRYING TO DO" awesome.

Or singing creepily. Or smiling creepily. Or playing with Bionicles.

Hell, just get Garret Dillahunt in the movie.

[Lord Pounder]

I think I have a good theory as to why Reese wasn't blown away out of hand. My impression was Connor had been actively looking for Reese since the start of the war so he could bring him closer and safe, Skynet got wind that Connor wanted Reese for some reason (intercepted radio transmissions or via failed infiltration units maybe) and decided that capturing Reese would bring it Connor and possibly a good section of Connor's army in to a turkey shoot.

[Anguirus]

^ This has been addressed. The only evidence Connor ever had that Reese was captured came from Marcus Wright. Skynet demonstrates the capacity to make Marcus believe false information and then report it to John as truth (the scene where he thinks that he has unlocked Reese's cell door, but in fact Skynet has kept him locked in). Therefore, they could have killed Reese immediately and then, presuming ontological inertia, simply directed Marcus to do what he did anyway: lie to Connor to get him on the site.