The Principality of Zeon in Enterprise era Trekverse

[Junghalli]

Growing up in zero or microgravity environments will cripple a human being, as detailed here.

Oh yes, that's absolutely true. A prolonged stay in microgravity has all sorts of detrimental on effects. "Space will turn us into a superior species" would be a rather unattractive ideology in a realistic universe to anyone who understood anything about biology.

[Ford Prefect]

Disclaimer: from the available info it could also be that the Newtypes are just a result of a normal human growing up in no-G conditions, i.e. it's environmental rather than genetic. Which would make a lot more sense.

It's never really explained what gives rise to Newtypes, beyond 'living in space gets you more of them'.

So now we're hanging our hats on the idea that United Earth will allow Zeon to 1) remain fully independent, 2) keep its existing space fleet, and 3) build a warp-capable battlefleet which will allow it to conquer Earth? Am I the only one who thinks this is fucking ridiculous?

While I do think this is pretty ridiculous plan, Zeon does have billions of people, millions in its armed forces, thousands of mobile suits and other warmachines and hundreds of ships. This is on top of superior industry: Starfleet began construction on the Enterprise in 2149 and completed it in 2151, while Gihren Zabi's vastly more massive Dolos class (almost five metres long, over three hundred wide and over one hundred tall) could not have conceivably begun construction until after the beginning of the One Year War. Your analogy is apt, but seriously doesn't begin to address the disparity in numbers here.

The question is whether there is enough of a power disparity to make up for it. I have no doubt in my mind that an NX-class can accelerate harder than anything from the One Year War, and they can probably take more damage too. Darth Wong estimated phaser output of the Ent-D against dense armour as being between 1-10 TW, which is not inconceivable for Zeonic warships to match, going by the Jormungand. Without Minovsky interference it is possible for beam weapons to engage targets hundreds or thousands of kilometres away, which is massively greater than the ranges routinely displayed by phasers in Star Trek, which is generally less then 10km. We even have Sisko ordering the Defiant within 500m of a target, at one point, which is actually pretty short range even by the standards of early UC Gundam.

This is setting aside that OYW nuclear weapons are nothing to sneeze at - the mobile suit portable M82 warhead was capable of totally vapourising multiple 200 and 300 metre long starships for tens of kilometres in every direction. Assuming that it takes an intensity of 1E9W/cm2 to completely vapourise a Salamis class cruiser and assuming it is merely ten kilometres away, then my admittedly rough calculations suggest a yield of ~30 megatons, which is comparable to the photon torpedoes of the 24th century. I understand that this is not a spectacularly accurate method of determining the yield of the M82 device, so hopefully conservatism will make up for it.

I mean, anyone feel free to correct me if you think otherwise, but I don't think you can realistically expect a couple of NX-class ships to be capable of swatting the entire Zeon fleet out of space, so frankly United Earth saying 'disarm or else' seems a little hollow. Zeon can't overcome their strategic disadvantage in speed, but this is just one part of the capabilities of Starfleet.

Which is irrelevant, because Char Aznable is going to kill all the Zabis anyway, and all their sychophants will turn on each other, reducing the entire colony cluster to civil war.

[avatarxprime]

It's doubtful Zeon can win through direct military power. Their best bet really is to become a full part of the United Earth government and later get all backstabby. That is still a dubious option, but it's not like UE holds all the cards here. Zeon does still have plays.

So now we're hanging our hats on the idea that United Earth will allow Zeon to 1) remain fully independent,

Zeon doesn't need to remain independent. It actually behooves them to have good diplomatic relations with UE considering they need access to better technology and the Zabis are willing to play the long game. At the same time though what is Starfleet likely to do? They don't seem the type to take arms against other humans quickly (just look at Terra Nova) and diplomacy takes a long time. It's not like UE will demand total control over them immediately and even less likely Zeon would agree. There will be time with negotiations taking place in any likely version of this scenario.

2) keep its existing space fleet,

The only way UE can make Zeon disarm is through force. If they attempt to block attempts by Zeon ships to reach asteroids to froce them to disarm, it will end badly. If they try to bring ships up to colonies and try and force it Zeon has the firepower to take out NX class ships, especially considering there are only the two, which gives Zeon the advantage. The only other way they could probably convince Zeon to disarm is to trade warp tech directly as Zeon would probably be willing to reduce arms in exchange for that.

and 3) build a warp-capable battlefleet which will allow it to conquer Earth?

Them acquiring warp technology will seem pretty normal, as will them refitting their existing ships with that technology rather than producing new ones. Production of new ships can probably be handled through talks with UE considering it will be Zeon's infrastructure and UE will not be controlling it. Of course all of that depends on the state of Zeon and UE relations, specifically talks about disarmament or force reduction.

The big thing is that Starfleet will be fighting the Romulan War in two years and considering the most likely diplomatic routes that will be taken Zeon can stall long enough for UE to be embroiled in the war. After that additional options open up for Zeon.

[Darksider]

Zeon doesn't need to remain independent. It actually behooves them to have good diplomatic relations with UE considering they need access to better technology and the Zabis are willing to play the long game. At the same time though what is Starfleet likely to do? They don't seem the type to take arms against other humans quickly (just look at Terra Nova) and diplomacy takes a long time. It's not like UE will demand total control over them immediately and even less likely Zeon would agree. There will be time with negotiations taking place in any likely version of this scenario.

They may not take direct and immediate military action, but I seriously doubt they will simply turn a blind eye to the Zeeks attempting to outfit their thousands strong war fleet with modern technology and FTL drives. At the very least this will cause Earth to ramp up its own production of military equipment and cause a type of cold war scenario. Remember that these people are going to be ready to fight a major interstellar war in two years The longer Zeon waits, the stronger the United Earth becomes. Remember, the UE is already building warp capable ships that can run rings around anything the Zeon has at impulse, and that are considerably more durable. Even if the Zeon can somehow obtain Warp technology and that proto-shield hull polarization tech, they still have to do a considerable amount of research to adapt it to their ships, and while they are doing that, the UE will be building more ships, developing faster warp drives, and developing full-fledged shield technology.

The only way UE can make Zeon disarm is through force. If they attempt to block attempts by Zeon ships to reach asteroids to force them to disarm, it will end badly. If they try to bring ships up to colonies and try and force it Zeon has the firepower to take out NX class ships, especially considering there are only the two, which gives Zeon the advantage. The only other way they could probably convince Zeon to disarm is to trade warp tech directly as Zeon would probably be willing to reduce arms in exchange for that.

Do you seriously think that the United Earth will just hand over warp technology to a possibly belligerent group of humans whose leadership is spewing dogmatic bullshit about "evolving humanity?" Just because captain duchess is a fucking moron doesn't mean that the UE's leadership lacks all common sense. They will not immediately give up their military advantages without investigating the Zeon, and the more they investigate, the more they will become alert. as for military capability, Zeon has superior numbers, but their ships are not even remotely equal to the UE's forces. Their acceleration and maneuvering capabilities are inferior by an order of magnitude, and the beam cannons that are essentially one hit kills against their ships are roughly equal with the phase cannons and torpedoes that UE ships can sustain multiple hits from without losing much combat capability. In a tactical engagement, a group of UE ships would have an immense advantage over a Zeon fleet, being able to move in and take them out at close range while evading their return fire. The UE's superior mobility means they could set up a very successful interdiction and supply raiding campaign against the Zeon, without engaging them in the pitched fleet battles that the Zeon and Feddies used against each other where they just sit there and fire at each other without moving. As for fleet size, the UE has one or two NX-class ships, but they have other ship designs that have been seen acting as system defense forces, and they are going to be ready to start a major interstellar war in two years, so they must have some kind of military and production capabilities, which they will certainly expand if they end up in a cold-war style scenario with Zeon.

Them acquiring warp technology will seem pretty normal, as will them refitting their existing ships with that technology rather than producing new ones. Production of new ships can probably be handled through talks with UE considering it will be Zeon's infrastructure and UE will not be controlling it. Of course all of that depends on the state of Zeon and UE relations, specifically talks about disarmament or force reduction.

How are they going to acquire warp technology? The UE isn't going to give it to them, the Vulcan's aren't going to give it to them, and their slow-ass ships means they would take centuries to reach any power willing to trade with them. And no one is going to come to them, because their entire nation is smack-dab in the middle of Sovereign UE territory.

The big thing is that Starfleet will be fighting the Romulan War in two years and considering the most likely diplomatic routes that will be taken Zeon can stall long enough for UE to be embroiled in the war. After that additional options open up for Zeon.

Zeons best case scenario would probably be to attack once all of earth's forces are away fighting in the romulan war, but that depends on whether or not they keep a sizeable force to defend sol. And I doubt they would be able to openly ally with the romulans, since they were so secretive. A likely scenario is romulan agents attempting to stir up a Zeon attack on earth in order to draw UE forces back home. However, since the UE's military capability will be superior during the war than it is at the Zeon's point of arrival, such an attack will almost certainly lead to a Zeonic defeat. They might distract enough UE forces for the Romulans to win the war or push for a more favorable treaty.

[Ford Prefect]

Remember, the UE is already building warp capable ships that can run rings around anything the Zeon has at impulse

While this has been said, and while I think this is probably correct, you realise you've actually provided no evidence to support this claim. There's actually evidence to suggest that while within the gravity well of a planet, like the Earth-Moon system, Impulse is severely retarded in terms of capability. Ships in Star Trek tend to have very slow sublight velocities when leaving planets, especially relative to what they're actually capable of. Unfortunately, this isn't covered in much detail on the main site.

Remember that these people are going to be ready to fight a major interstellar war in two years

Is this even relevant? In the 24th century, the Klingon Empire's starfleet is not likely to comprise more than two thousand vessels, and the Federation would not likely have more. I don't think I have to tell you how fantastically greater in scale the Federation is in comparison to United Earth.

developing full-fledged shield technology.

Do you have any idea when they actually develop shields? It could be a couple of years, or it could be decades.

Just because captain duchess is a fucking moron doesn't mean that the UE's leadership lacks all common sense.

Archer almost instigates an interstellar war between the Vulcans and Andorrians, completely fucking over the UE's closest ally in the process. Starfleet's response is essentially 'haha, screw you, Ambassador Soval'. They may not be as useless as Archer, but they themselves are not hugely impressive.

their ships are not even remotely equal to the UE's forces. Their acceleration and maneuvering capabilities are inferior by an order of magnitude, and the beam cannons that are essentially one hit kills against their ships are roughly equal with the phase cannons and torpedoes that UE ships can sustain multiple hits from without losing much combat capability.

You have provided no proof for this. There is no reason to assume that the UE has weapons parity with Zeon: as I mentioned earlier, Darth Wong estimates that the effects of 24th century phasers on dense matter to be roughly equivalent to 1-10 TW; this number is not inconceivable for a Zeke warship to manage (it's actually kind of low considering that they have produced beam weapons that put huge glowing tunnels through mountains). This is setting aside nuclear weapons, which even my conservative estimations of rival the photon torpedoes used by the Federation of the 24th century. If you wish to dispute this, then by all means, go ahead.

[Sidewinder]

2) keep its existing space fleet,

The only way UE can make Zeon disarm is through force. If they attempt to block attempts by Zeon ships to reach asteroids to froce them to disarm, it will end badly. If they try to bring ships up to colonies and try and force it Zeon has the firepower to take out NX class ships, especially considering there are only the two, which gives Zeon the advantage.

The NX class is not the only class of warp-capable warships then in Starfleet service.

In an alternate timeline where Earth was destroyed by the Xindi, Intrepid was one of the few Starfleet vessels to escape destruction. It, along with Enterprise and one other starship, escorted a convoy of the last 6,000 Humans to the Ceti Alpha system in 2155-56, and helped patrol the system afterwards.

The Intrepid type was a mid-22nd century Earth Starfleet starship design to which the starship Intrepid belongs. The class was armed with phase cannons and two torpedo launchers. (ENT: "The Expanse")

Them acquiring warp technology will seem pretty normal, as will them refitting their existing ships with that technology rather than producing new ones. Production of new ships can probably be handled through talks with UE considering it will be Zeon's infrastructure and UE will not be controlling it.

Don't forget inertial dampers, without which it's suicide to go to warp. And the structural integrity field, without which the warp coils will rupture within a short time.

Asking Zeon shipyards to build warp-capable ships w/out first upgrading these shipyards & training the workers- a process that'll take years, if not decades- is like giving the HMS Dreadnought's blueprints to the Confederate States Navy, & expecting it to build a 1906 warship w/ 1860s technology, i.e., w/out advances in metallurgy & precision tooling necessary to make steam turbines.

[Stark]

Jesus fuck WHY IS HE DOING THAT? He was already a laughingstock lameass, but why is he doing that? Does he think he's clever? Does he think it's appropriate for a thread where almost everyone knows more about Zeon than he does?

[Darksider]

Jesus fuck WHY IS HE DOING THAT? He was already a laughingstock lameass, but why is he doing that? Does he think he's clever? Does he think it's appropriate for a thread where almost everyone knows more about Zeon than he does?

Erm. Who is this directed at?

[Ford Prefect]

He's tlaking about Sidewinder. I'm still actually reeling from the fact that he thinks that you can turn off the air in an O'neill cylinder. How do you turn off three billion tons of air? I mean, thanks for bringing up ships there were mentioned on the first page, too bad they're smaller and less powerful than the NX-class ships, who are already at a probable deficit in firepower.

[Darksider]

While this has been said, and while I think this is probably correct, you realize you've actually provided no evidence to support this claim. There's actually evidence to suggest that while within the gravity well of a planet, like the Earth-Moon system, Impulse is severely retarded in terms of capability. Ships in Star Trek tend to have very slow sublight velocities when leaving planets, especially relative to what they're actually capable of. Unfortunately, this isn't covered in much detail on the main site.

Proto-Starfleet has shuttle pods that can independently achieve escape velocity and exit a planet's atmosphere, whereas a Zeon Zanzibar class mobile cruiser, stated to be their most advanced ship at the time, required a separate booster attachment to do it in 08th MS Team. This points to Starfleet ships and small craft being much faster than their Zeon counterparts. As for maneuvering, All I’ve ever seen Zeon ships do is move in a straight line and fire their main guns at their federation counterparts. The NX-01 was capable of pulling an L-4 maneuver in The Expanse. Have the Zeon ships been observed pulling maneuvers like that? Admittedly I haven't seen some of the newer material, and my experience with the UC era is limited to The original Gundam series, the 08th MS team OVAs, and the 0083 movie, so if I’m mistaken I’ll concede the point.

Is this even relevant? In the 24th century, the Klingon Empire's Starfleet is not likely to comprise more than two thousand vessels, and the Federation would not likely have more. I don't think I have to tell you how fantastically greater in scale the Federation is in comparison to United Earth.

I mainly threw that in their to debunk the whole 'hur hur they only have two ships' shtick some people were spouting. Zeon does have a massive numerical advantage, and in a straight up line up and shoot fleet battle, would undoubtedly defeat Starfleet. What I’m saying is that Starfleet would not engage the Zeon on those terms, rather that they would use their superior mobility to stage hit and run strikes on Zeon forces. Granted, this would leave their static installations open to attack, and if they actually tried to defend them, they'd get stomped hardcore by Zeon's superior numbers, but the length of travel time for Zeon ships to Starfleet installations would give them plenty of time to stage hit and run attacks against any Zeon fleets.

Do you have any idea when they actually develop shields? It could be a couple of years, or it could be decades.

In the alternate timeline where the Xindi destroyed earth, Earth ships were retrofitted with shield technology with vastly inferior resources than they currently posses. So I don't know how long it would take them to develop shields, but their ships are capable of supporting the technology.

Archer almost instigates an interstellar war between the Vulcans and Andorrians, completely fucking over the UE's closest ally in the process. Starfleet's response is essentially 'haha, screw you, Ambassador Soval'. They may not be as useless as Archer, but they themselves are not hugely impressive.

Military competence in star trek has always been shoddy at the best of times, but I haven't seen anything that makes me believe they're incompetent enough to ignore the fact that Zeon has a thousand-strong fleet of dedicated warships, and just start trading away their technological edge without further investigation like some people were advocating

You have provided no proof for this. There is no reason to assume that the UE has weapons parity with Zeon: as I mentioned earlier, Darth Wong estimates that the effects of 24th century phasers on dense matter to be roughly equivalent to 1-10 TW; this number is not inconceivable for a Zeke warship to manage (it's actually kind of low considering that they have produced beam weapons that put huge glowing tunnels through mountains). This is setting aside nuclear weapons, which even my conservative estimations of rival the photon torpedoes used by the Federation of the 24th century. If you wish to dispute this, then by all means, go ahead.

That weapon that melted the mountain was roughly equivalent to the Big Zam's main gun right? The same main gun that was one-shotting federation battleships at the battle of Solomon with little effort? just because Zeon can create a beam cannon that powerful doesn't mean their ships are capable of repelling that much energy. as for the mark 82 warhead, didn't that vaporize a third of the federation fleet with an omnidirectional blast? Because the mirror-verse NX-class are capable of withstanding at least three photon torpedoes from a 23d century federation vessel. (Seen here)

[Darksider]

Something that just hit me. If UC warships are capable of withstanding beam cannons with the yields specified, how the hell was Char Aznable able to blast three Salamis-class cruisers in rapid succession with a fucking 120mm machine gun

[RedImperator]

It's doubtful Zeon can win through direct military power. Their best bet really is to become a full part of the United Earth government and later get all backstabby. That is still a dubious option, but it's not like UE holds all the cards here. Zeon does still have plays.

So now we're hanging our hats on the idea that United Earth will allow Zeon to 1) remain fully independent,

Zeon doesn't need to remain independent. It actually behooves them to have good diplomatic relations with UE considering they need access to better technology and the Zabis are willing to play the long game. At the same time though what is Starfleet likely to do? They don't seem the type to take arms against other humans quickly (just look at Terra Nova) and diplomacy takes a long time. It's not like UE will demand total control over them immediately and even less likely Zeon would agree. There will be time with negotiations taking place in any likely version of this scenario.

Time favors UE, not Zeon. The Romulan War is going to bring a military buildup and a military alliance with the Andorians and Tellarites (as well as militarizing Vulcan). After that, Earth will be the capital of the Federation; even if Zeon took Earth at that point, they couldn't keep it.

At any rate, disarming or at least docking, locking down, and allowing UE inspectors to board their ships is going to be condition one for any diplomatic negotiations if UE behaves anything at all like any other human state which has ever existed. Zeon isn't out in the boonies somewhere. They're less than a million kilometers from Earth. They're deep inside sovereign UE territory. It's a hostile act to maintain that much active military hardware inside another nation's borders.

However, Starfleet doesn't have to use force to gain leverage over Zeon. Zeon is stuck at the Earth-Moon L2 with no industrial resources save for whatever is stockpiled in the colonies. Their economy is going to come to a crash-stop without assistance from UE. How are they going to operate this huge military of theirs after that?

The only way UE can make Zeon disarm is through force. If they attempt to block attempts by Zeon ships to reach asteroids to froce them to disarm, it will end badly.

Why would it, exactly? Starfleet has months to harass and destroy any Zeon expedition to the asteroids, and thanks to FTL, they can do it with near-impunity. And even if UE happily lets them, what is Zeon's economy going to do while they're waiting for the supply ships to get back?

If they try to bring ships up to colonies and try and force it Zeon has the firepower to take out NX class ships, especially considering there are only the two, which gives Zeon the advantage.

First, Starfleet has more than the NX class available. Second, why would Starfleet assault Zeon at its point of maximum strength when it has the ability to dictate the time, place, and terms of every engagement? If it did come to hostilities, Starfleet can ignore any ship at the colonies until it starts to move, and then Starfleet has days to consider what to do about it.

I don't think you realize what a huge force multiplier FTL is for UE. Starfleet can effectively be everywhere at once--every starship they have in the Solar System can converge on any point before Zeon can get any forces anywhere. Since there seems to be rough parity in weapons, a Starfleet advantage in armor (thanks to shields), and a huge Starfleet advantage in STL speeds and maneuverability, as long as Starfleet doesn't get drawn into a stand-up battle against a superior force, they can hit-and-fade all day until Zeon has suffered significant attrition. Worse, since Zeon has no FTL sensors, Starfleet can hit them with absolutely no warning. Worse than no warning--the light from a Starfleet ship going into warp won't reach Zeon sensors before Starfleet ships drop out of warp in combat range, essentially replicating the Picard Maneuver in every engagement. Starfleet could position a fleet in front of Zeon's, wait until Zeon turns to face them, jump to warp and fly past them, then turn around and warp right up Zeon's tailpipes before Zeon even knows they've moved.

The are only two ways to mitigate the FTL advantage: first, for Zeon's warfleet to be ready to fight the instant a Starfleet ships drops out of warp. Unfortunately, this means maintaining constant readiness for days--weeks if they're trying to get anywhere outside the Earth-Moon system. Zeonic crews are going to have to stand at general quarters for days on end. I'm sure that will be great for morale and performance. Second, they can move so many ships to Earth that Starfleet can't whittle them down enough to be able to survive a stand-up fight, in which case, the best course of action for UE is to evacuate its political and military leadership to Mars and wait for reinforcements from Vulcan, while continuing to harass Zeon forces.

The only other way they could probably convince Zeon to disarm is to trade warp tech directly as Zeon would probably be willing to reduce arms in exchange for that.

Warp tech? Try iron. Zeon has no resources except what it has stockpiled or can recycle. Even if they capture the moon, the heaviest metal there is aluminum. The colonies are self-sufficient in food, water, and breathing oxygen, but most industry necessary to support a modern economy (and space fleet) is going to grind to a halt. Given what's been said in this thread about Zeonic propulsion, I don't think they could get to the asteroids and back in time to avoid an economic catastrophe even if there was no Starfleet interference at all.

Them acquiring warp technology will seem pretty normal, as will them refitting their existing ships with that technology rather than producing new ones. Production of new ships can probably be handled through talks with UE considering it will be Zeon's infrastructure and UE will not be controlling it. Of course all of that depends on the state of Zeon and UE relations, specifically talks about disarmament or force reduction.

Oh lord. You sound like one of those Trekkies claiming the Federation can reverse-engineer a hyperdrive, duplicate it, and install them on all their ships in time to affect the outcome of a war against the Empire. By all means, please, show me the proof that Zeon can retrofit their ships with an engine whose technology they don't understand, based on physical principals they haven't discovered, built with an industrial infrastructure they don't have (even if they did have access to the raw materials), running on an extremely dangeroous power system with which they have no experience, using fuel they don't have and can't manufacture. This is before we talk about the ludicrous infeasiblity of them actually acquiring warp technology to begin with. The Vulcans won't give it to them. UE only will if they're catastrophically stupid or Zeon makes huge concessions. Nobody else has access to them and would risk conflict with UE and the Vulcans if they tried to sell them warp technology.

The big thing is that Starfleet will be fighting the Romulan War in two years and considering the most likely diplomatic routes that will be taken Zeon can stall long enough for UE to be embroiled in the war. After that additional options open up for Zeon.

No, after that, options close for Zeon. UE will be fully allied with the Andorians and Tellarites at that point in addition to the Vulcans, and all four powers will be on a war footing and in no mood to put up with any bullshit from Zeon. After that, Earth will be part of the UFP.

I mean, anyone feel free to correct me if you think otherwise, but I don't think you can realistically expect a couple of NX-class ships to be capable of swatting the entire Zeon fleet out of space, so frankly United Earth saying 'disarm or else' seems a little hollow. Zeon can't overcome their strategic disadvantage in speed, but this is just one part of the capabilities of Starfleet.

Without repeating everything I said above, Starfleet's speed advantage lets it pick the time and place of every engagement, and it also lets it concentrate its relatively small fleet wherever it's needed. Zeon's only option to force an engagement is to rush Earth, and even then, UE can evacuate its leadership and retreat to Mars rather than stand and fight an overwhelming force. I agree, in a toe-to-toe engagement, Starfleet will get whooped, but there's no reason for them to accept such a fight. Zeon can always opt to hunker down around its colonies, but that only works until they run out of supplies. I don't even see how Zeon can acquire propellant for their ships unless they raid the colonies' water supply (I'm assuming they use some kind of nuclear rocket with water as a possible propellant; it's the most common hard/hardish SF arrangement).

As for firepower discrepancies, I don't think it matters very much if Starfleet can still bring enough firepower to bear to destroy Zeonic warships quickly. If a single nuclear device can wipe out half an equivalent-technology fleet, Starfleet photon torpedoes and nuclear weapons (which were used in the Romulan War) should be able to do significant damage to Zeon ships. It seems, just going by the thread, that Zeon ships can dish it out but they can't take it (which fits with a hardish setting). Zeon does have a range advantage, but that range advantage is neutralized by Starfleet's ability to drop out of warp right on top of them.

Everyone in the thread seems to agree an immediate, direct, all-out assault on Earth is a stupid option for Zeon. I don't know if it is. It's only a stupid option if Zeon can increase its strength relative to UE, and I don't think they can. I think their best bet might be a full-on bum's rush to Earth, leaving behind only enough forces to defend the colonies, before Starfleet can call its interstellar assets home or help from Vulcan can arrive. Absorb the losses from Starfleet hit-and-run attacks, try to force a space battle if you can in Earth orbit, and seize the planet. Zeon can't hold it in the long-term given UE/Vulcan space superiority, but they can make it costly enough to dig them out that they can win some concessions.

This is all assuming Zeon's leadership isn't smart enough to take stock of the situation, realize they're screwed if they fight, and cut a deal. There's a galaxy full of virgin solar system to chose from if Zeon plays its cards right. With UE help, they could establish a settlement above another inhabitable planet, or, since they don't even need inhabited planets, in a solar system without inhabited planets, where they're virtually guaranteed to be left alone by everybody. What's the point of starting a war with United Earth to begin with, when they could get more than they ever dreamed of peacefully?

[Darwin]

Something that just hit me. If UC warships are capable of withstanding beam cannons with the yields specified, how the hell was Char Aznable able to blast three Salamis-class cruisers in rapid succession with a fucking 120mm machine gun

I think it's assumed he used a 280mm bazooka, and perhaps heat hawk to smash the bridge, and face it, EA Salamis cruisers will explode from about *anything*. The Salamis were designed for ship-ship combat (and in that are terribly outclassed by the Musai) and were simply sitting ducks for mobile suits.

I'm starting to wonder what use newtype mobile armor units like Brawbro and Elmeth would have in this. Both are basically undetectable stealth units due to minovsky jamming, and attack with equally invisible and crazy fast psychic remote gun units each with the same firepower as a cruiser's mega particle guns, either took a precognitive newtype to have a hope of finding, much less defeating. Clearly too slow for attack vs proto-starfleet, they would still be very useful for defense and area denial, I would think.

[Ford Prefect]

Proto-Starfleet has shuttle pods that can independently achieve escape velocity and exit a planet's atmosphere, whereas a Zeon Zanzibar class mobile cruiser, stated to be their most advanced ship at the time, required a separate booster attachment to do it in 08th MS Team. This points to Starfleet ships and small craft being much faster than their Zeon counterparts. As for maneuvering, All I’ve ever seen Zeon ships do is move in a straight line and fire their main guns at their federation counterparts. The NX-01 was capable of pulling an L-4 maneuver in The Expanse. Have the Zeon ships been observed pulling maneuvers like that? Admittedly I haven't seen some of the newer material, and my experience with the UC era is limited to The original Gundam series, the 08th MS team OVAs, and the 0083 movie, so if I’m mistaken I’ll concede the point.

I actually do think that Starfleet would have superior acceleration (I don't have access to much in the way of episodes, so I couldn't really measure how quickly they tend to move in gravity well). However, in First Contact the ships involved in that did not exceed a relative velocity of more than 300m/s, suggesting that there is a limit to how quickly they can move relative to their target if they want to hit it. As for the Zekes, the most impressive piece of warship maneuvering I can think of would be the Musais in MS IGLOO 2, but the turns pulled there are not especially impressive compared to a full loop . Though in that very short 'battle' we did have both Zeke and Feddie warships pulling (and this is very rough) about 200-300m/s, perhaps somewhat more.

I mainly threw that in their to debunk the whole 'hur hur they only have two ships' shtick some people were spouting. Zeon does have a massive numerical advantage, and in a straight up line up and shoot fleet battle, would undoubtedly defeat Starfleet. What I’m saying is that Starfleet would not engage the Zeon on those terms, rather that they would use their superior mobility to stage hit and run strikes on Zeon forces. Granted, this would leave their static installations open to attack, and if they actually tried to defend them, they'd get stomped hardcore by Zeon's superior numbers, but the length of travel time for Zeon ships to Starfleet installations would give them plenty of time to stage hit and run attacks against any Zeon fleets.

Please keep in mind that I still don't think Zeon will actually win. I am simply disputing the notion that it is within Starfleet's capabilities to actually make the Zekes disband their military. Strategic mobility and durability (and I'm pretty sure that the ISS Enterprise is actually more powerful than the real one, but I'm willing to use it as a guide) cannot necessarily overcome the deficit in weapons power, range and numbers. Zeon can probably engage on enough fronts that Starfleet will actually run out of ships to fight them all, but that simply gives me amusing images of Archer non-stop flying around the Earth sphere to hold off yet another Zeon fleet. It's almost like Gihren has a magic jar that gushes them forth. However, that strategic mobility is probably enough to make any war spectacularly costly, especially given that Gihren will undoubtedly underestimate his enemy (but talk about them in a great speech).

In the alternate timeline where the Xindi destroyed earth, Earth ships were retrofitted with shield technology with vastly inferior resources than they currently posses. So I don't know how long it would take them to develop shields, but their ships are capable of supporting the technology.

Fair enough.

That weapon that melted the mountain was roughly equivalent to the Big Zam's main gun right? The same main gun that was one-shotting federation battleships at the battle of Solomon with little effort? just because Zeon can create a beam cannon that powerful doesn't mean their ships are capable of repelling that much energy. as for the mark 82 warhead, didn't that vaporize a third of the federation fleet with an omnidirectional blast? Because the mirror-verse NX-class are capable of withstanding at least three photon torpedoes from a 23d century federation vessel.

Too bad I wasn't talking about the durability of Zeonic warships, huh. I was talking about how powerful their weapons are, and they're in the same ballpark of the 24th century. Additionally, the M82 is almost certainly greatly superior to any photon torpedo in terms of destructive yield. My estimation relies on the notion that it is easier to vaporise a Salamis class than a sheet of aluminium (which may not be inaccurate ), and ignores that it made ships just plain evaporate at greater distances than ten kilometres. There may well be problems with delivery, of course. The NX-01 could have demonstrated superior point defense capabilities; I am not really familiar with it.

Something that just hit me. If UC warships are capable of withstanding beam cannons with the yields specified, how the hell was Char Aznable able to blast three Salamis-class cruisers in rapid succession with a fucking 120mm machine gun

I never said they could resist such energies, simply that they are capable of producing them. They only ever survive the most glancing of hits, and still take large maounts of damage regardless. Additionally, their armour may not be as efficient in dealing with momentum. At the end of the day a Salamis class is a delicate glass figurine with a sledgehammer poised above it in practically any situation.

Also, Red, I apologise for not replying with more detail, but I do basically agree with you. Zeon should actually have some asteroids in the cluster (they definitely have at least one), and expecting them to invent what is basically the Picard Maneuver two hundred years ahead of schedule is a little generous, but otheriwse I don't think we can really argue with your logic. In the end turtling up isn't such a good idea, and capturing Earth may well be possible for Zeon, given that the UE probably doesn't have thousands and thousands of tanks ready to fight across multiple continents.

[DrStrangelove]

To expand upon the numbers mentioned by others


Mk82 nuke from gundum 0083

Mass of salamis refit class cruiser 12100 metric tons. Approximate energy to vaporize 1kg of iron(from the TL commentaries) 7.6e6J. Energy to vaporize cruiser(assuming iron construction) 21.98KT. Accounting for the inverse square law, say 500m bumps the yield up to 5GT.


As for the Apsalus III, assuming that the mountain is a 300m tall equilateral triangular pyramid, it would have a volume of 6.36e6 cubic meters. the video shows at least 50% of the mountain is still there so i'll guesstimate 25% of the mountain was melted. this works out to 1.59e6 cubic meters melted. Plugging that into the ADC(144.5m) puts the yield of the mobile armors beam cannon at 2.3MT.


From gundam MS igloo, the jormungand with it 500TJ shots being 10x the yield of a shipmounted megaparticle cannon, thus 50TJ a shot , of which a musai carries 6.


This is in comparison to a NX's 500GJ phase cannons and limited numbers of low yield spatial torpedoes and nuke yield photonic torpedoes.

Zeon clearly has the upperhand in firepower





EDIT: spelled jormungand wrong

[Darksider]

Ford, I don't remember ever stating that the UE would be able to force Zeon to disband their military, just that they wouldn't be able to win outright. Their numerical superiority means that they can make the war extremely costly for the UE, and I don't doubt their ability to take and hold most of earth. However, like Red stated, the UE can dictate the terms of engagement however they wish, and they have assets elsewhere in the solar system and in other star systems that are effectively unassailable for Zeon, and these assets provide a secure base from which to launch hit and run attacks to wear Zeon down.

I forsee this being the most likely scenario of any Zeon attack against the UE:

The Zeeks launch their attacks outright, and manage to capture or destroy most UE static installations in earth orbit, due to the proto-feddies not having anywhere near enough ships to defend them all. They launch their drop pods against earth and quickly seize most of the planet. While this is going on, UE ships are staging hit and run strikes against zeon targets, inflicting heavy losses due to their ability to dictate the terms of the engagement. Proto-feddie leadership evacuates to jupiter station or another colony somewhere else, and Starfleet launches a hit and run campaign against the Zeeks. The proto feddies start building up their military infrastructure throughout sol and on other colonies (is it ever stated how many colonies UE has?) and send more ships to join the hit 'n run campaign as soon as they can crank them out. The UE eventually builds up enough forces to invade and re-take earth while the Zeeks are scrambling to gather more resources to fight them off.

Some unknowns that I don't really have enough information to quantify:

1. The use of the Verteron array as a weapon against Zeon colony clusters and fleet bases-a bunch of terrorists were able to weaponize it, so the UE military certainly will in the event that earth is lost. However, i'm unsure of the array's power output other than the fact that it's used to divert comets and asteroids. Might be a good platform to use against any Zeon expeditionary forces that attempt to grab asteroids from the belt.

2. Zeon's superweapons-I'm referring to the Jormungand mega-particle cannon here. If they blast San Fransisco with it, they might take out enough UE leaders to throw them into disarray and force a favorable settlement. As for their other wonder weapons like their mobile armors, I don't really know enough about them to theorize what impact they might have.

3. UE's ground military-Outside of small arms, UE's ground capabilities are a complete unknown. I suppose they could use those shuttlepods as air support, but they don't look too sturdy. If the UE has enough ground forces to hold the Zeon off for a while, the UE will do much better. Basically, the longer the war lasts, the worse it will get for the Zeeks.

4. Vulcan aid to the UE-if the vulcans decide to get involved directly, then the time required for a UE counter-offensive to re-take earth is cut down considerably. Basically the time required for a UE counter-assault is dependent on them amassing enough ships to destroy the Zeon space forces. I don't know how many ships this will require, since they'll be worn down via attrition and hit 'n run attacks, but if the vulcans commit ships then the UE won't have to build as many.

Also RE: UE ships durability. Another good example of that can be found here. I honestly can't say i've ever seen gundam-verse ships take a pounding like that and still be able to fight back, let alone repair themselves to sub-optimal combat capabilities like the Enterprise did.

[Darwin]

Also RE: UE ships durability. Another good example of that can be found here. I honestly can't say i've ever seen gundam-verse ships take a pounding like that and still be able to fight back, let alone repair themselves to sub-optimal combat capabilities like the Enterprise did.

character shields may be important. Look at the pounding White Base takes. Also some Magellan battleships seem fairly durable, never mind the big Zeon battleships like Gwazine.

[RedImperator]

1. The use of the Verteron array as a weapon against Zeon colony clusters and fleet bases-a bunch of terrorists were able to weaponize it, so the UE military certainly will in the event that earth is lost. However, i'm unsure of the array's power output other than the fact that it's used to divert comets and asteroids. Might be a good platform to use against any Zeon expeditionary forces that attempt to grab asteroids from the belt.

Zeon's colonies are at the Earth-Moon L2. L2 orbits are inherently unstable. I don't know enough about orbital mechanics to tell you what would happen if the array was used to shove the colonies out of their orbits, but it probably wouldn't be good. Perhaps they could be knocked into solar orbit, out of range of Zeon's forces on Earth.

The colonies will always be extremely vulnerable, either to the array or to hit-and-run attacks. But I don't know if Starfleet is willing to attack civilian installations. If they were, they could hold the colonies hostage and force Zeon to disarm that way, but I doubt they would. After Earth falls, all bets may be off, but again, I doubt it, especially if the Vulcans get involved.

[Sidewinder]

Jesus fuck WHY IS HE DOING THAT? He was already a laughingstock lameass, but why is he doing that? Does he think he's clever? Does he think it's appropriate for a thread where almost everyone knows more about Zeon than he does?

And you think it's appropriate for a thread where every Zeon-wanking MORON knows SIGNIFICANTLY LESS about space medicine, Earth's environment, human psychology, & Treknology than the average college graduate? Why don't you type in "algae" & "oxygen production" on Yahoo!, see for yourself how important a microscopic plant is to our environment, & ask yourself, "Can a space station do w/out a life support system when it doesn't have the plant life necessary to sustain the inhabitants' oxygen needs?" How about "space medicine" & "calcium"- or do you think you can magically make the human body immune to the detrimental effects of zero-G, effects NASA & other space agencies have known about for DECADES? Why don't you look up "inertial damper" & "structural integrity field" on a Trek website & ask yourself if it's possible to simply retrofit a Zeon warship w/ warp drives, assuming its power plant can even generate the energy needed to go to warp? Why don't I knock on your door, greet you w/ a machine gun slung on my shoulder & a pistol holstered at my hip, tell you some bullshit tale about needing the guns to defend myself from terrorists, & see if whether or not you'll freak out, call the police, & demand that the gun nut get the hell off your front porch?

[Ford Prefect]

The colonies will always be extremely vulnerable, either to the array or to hit-and-run attacks. But I don't know if Starfleet is willing to attack civilian installations. If they were, they could hold the colonies hostage and force Zeon to disarm that way, but I doubt they would. After Earth falls, all bets may be off, but again, I doubt it, especially if the Vulcans get involved.

Even if they aren't actually willing to kill billions of people, they can still try bluffing. Gihren is extremely ruthless, but I don't think even he is ruthless enough to risk potentially everyone in the Principality. And even if he is, his younger brother Dozle isn't, so it could effectively cripple Zeon's government.

[Stark]

And you think it's appropriate for a thread where every Zeon-wanking MORON knows SIGNIFICANTLY LESS about space medicine, Earth's environment, human psychology, & Treknology than the average college graduate? Why don't you type in "algae" & "oxygen production" on Yahoo!, see for yourself how important a microscopic plant is to our environment, & ask yourself, "Can a space station do w/out a life support system when it doesn't have the plant life necessary to sustain the inhabitants' oxygen needs?" How about "space medicine" & "calcium"- or do you think you can magically make the human body immune to the detrimental effects of zero-G, effects NASA & other space agencies have known about for DECADES? Why don't you look up "inertial damper" & "structural integrity field" on a Trek website & ask yourself if it's possible to simply retrofit a Zeon warship w/ warp drives, assuming its power plant can even generate the energy needed to go to warp? Why don't I knock on your door, greet you w/ a machine gun slung on my shoulder & a pistol holstered at my hip, tell you some bullshit tale about needing the guns to defend myself from terrorists, & see if whether or not you'll freak out, call the police, & demand that the gun nut get the hell off your front porch?

Is that why you're linking to irrelevant crap when you say you can turn off the life support in a giant habitat with a functioning ecosystem? Is that really why?

Man, I'm finding it massively hilarious that he'll link to stupid shit and markup italics, but uses ampersands and 'w/'. What a fucking toolbar.

[Sidewinder]

He's tlaking about Sidewinder. I'm still actually reeling from the fact that he thinks that you can turn off the air in an O'neill cylinder. How do you turn off three billion tons of air?

Ask the people who work for Sunrise. Why did the scriptwriters think you can turn off the air in an O'Neill cylinder? (Note: I think the Titans actually turned off the air recycling system, so it wouldn't simply filter out the nerve agents they introduced into the colony.)

I mean, thanks for bringing up ships there were mentioned on the first page, too bad they're smaller and less powerful than the NX-class ships, who are already at a probable deficit in firepower.

But these ships are also warp-capable. None of the Principality's ships will be warp-capable when they first appear in United Earth space, & unless a Starfleet ship & her crew decide to defect to the Principality, none will become warp-capable for years, if not decades.

[Sidewinder]

Is that why you're linking to irrelevant crap when you say you can turn off the life support in a giant habitat with a functioning ecosystem? Is that really why?

You moron, the space colony does not have a functioning ecosystem, because its environment is not identical to Earth's, or any planet with a functioning ecosystem! Or is 70% of the O'Neill cylinders' internal surface occupied by bodies of water, to sustain the algae needed to produce an equivalent percentage of oxygen in Earth's atmosphere?

[Darwin]

The colonies will always be extremely vulnerable, either to the array or to hit-and-run attacks. But I don't know if Starfleet is willing to attack civilian installations. If they were, they could hold the colonies hostage and force Zeon to disarm that way, but I doubt they would.

I kind of doubt Starfleet would use such a weapon on the Zeon colonies, being 'good guys' and all. As for hit and run attacks, it depends on the realspace targeting ability of the UE ships. If they have to slow down to less than a blurry white streak, a defending big zam/brawbro/elemeth could tear them apart.

Hm, thinking about mobile armors brings me to the I-field generator, which can completely block minovsky particle weapons, but as for its effectiveness against nadion particle weapons like phase cannon, it's a technobabble toss-up. Big Zam was basically invulnerable to ship and mobile suit mounted beam guns and had to be destroyed by heavy shell weapons or close attack. If phase cannon are ineffective, it could be destroyed by photon torpedoes assuming they could get through its formidable point defense. (28 AA beam guns) if all else, the i-field has a time limit of 20 minutes before having to be shut down due to heat.

[Stark]

Oh dear. Don't you link to wiki? Didn't you notice the atmo mix isn't supposed to be the same as Earths?