Think twice about 'green' transport, say scientists

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Think twice about 'green' transport, say scientists

Post by Force Lord »

Interesting...

PARIS (AFP) – You worry a lot about the environment and do everything you can to reduce your carbon footprint -- the emissions of greenhouse gases that drive dangerous climate change.

So you always prefer to take the train or the bus rather than a plane, and avoid using a car whenever you can, faithful to the belief that this inflicts less harm to the planet.

Well, there could be a nasty surprise in store for you, for taking public transport may not be as green as you automatically think, says a new US study.

Its authors point out an array of factors that are often unknown to the public.

These are hidden or displaced emissions that ramp up the simple "tailpipe" tally, which is based on how much carbon is spewed out by the fossil fuels used to make a trip.

Environmental engineers Mikhail Chester and Arpad Horvath at the University of California at Davis say that when these costs are included, a more complex and challenging picture emerges.

In some circumstances, for instance, it could be more eco-friendly to drive into a city -- even in an SUV, the bete noire of green groups -- rather than take a suburban train. It depends on seat occupancy and the underlying carbon cost of the mode of transport.

"We are encouraging people to look at not the average ranking of modes, because there is a different basket of configurations that determine the outcome," Chester told AFP in a phone interview.

"There's no overall solution that's the same all the time."

The pair give an example of how the use of oil, gas or coal to generate electricity to power trains can skew the picture.

Boston has a metro system with high energy efficiency. The trouble is, 82 percent of the energy to drive it comes from dirty fossil fuels.

By comparison, San Francisco's local railway is less energy-efficient than Boston's. But it turns out to be rather greener, as only 49 percent of the electricity is derived from fossils.

The paper points out that the "tailpipe" quotient does not include emissions that come from building transport infrastructure -- railways, airport terminals, roads and so on -- nor the emissions that come from maintaining this infrastructure over its operational lifetime.

These often-unacknowledged factors add substantially to the global-warming burden.

In fact, they add 63 percent to the "tailpipe" emissions of a car, 31 percent to those of a plane, and 55 percent to those of a train.

And another big variable that may be overlooked in green thinking is seat occupancy.

A saloon (sedan) car or even an 4x4 that is fully occupied may be responsible for less greenhouse gas per kilometer travelled per person than a suburban train that is a quarter full, the researchers calculate.

"Government policy has historically relied on energy and emission analysis of automobiles, buses, trains and aircraft at their tailpipe, ignoring vehicle production and maintenance, infrastructure provision and fuel production requirements to support these modes," they say.

So getting a complete view of the ultimate environmental cost of the type of transport, over its entire lifespan, should help decision-makers to make smarter investments.

For travelling distances up to, say, 1,000 kilometres (600 miles), "we can ask questions as to whether it's better to invest in a long-distance railway, improving the air corridor or boosting car occupancy," said Chester.

The paper appears in Environmental Research Letters, a publication of Britain's Institute of Physics.

The calculations are based on US technology and lifestyles.

It used 2005 models of the Toyota Camry saloon, Chevrolet Trailblazer SUV and Ford F-150 to calibrate automobile performance; the light transit systems in the San Francisco Bay Area and Boston as the models for the metro and commuter lines; and the Embraer 145, Boeing 737 and Boeing 747 as the benchmarks for short-, medium- and long-haul aircraft.
:( So basically you can drive a train that's energy-efficient, but that energy can come from terrible sources such as coal. Yep, clean railways are related to dirty power plants. That's my take on it anyway.

Can someone give a better analysis?
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Re: Think twice about 'green' transport, say scientists

Post by Nephtys »

Summary: A super green ultra train is still net polluting per person more than your 4 MPG SUV, provided that nobody's riding it.

Which may well be a valid point. I rode the San Diego <-> LA Metrolink train quite a few times on various days (Fri/Sat/Sun), and it was almost always near empty during morning or afternoon runs, and only somewhat full-ish during Friday evenings.
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Re: Think twice about 'green' transport, say scientists

Post by Darth Wong »

I don't know why they bring up the infrastructure carbon penalty when they acknowledge that it's higher for cars than trains (63% vs 55% by their own claims). And the carbon cost of electrics is obviously tied to the mode of energy production; that goes without saying. But that's really only a rebuttal to the idiots who oppose SUVs but who also oppose nuclear power. For those who say we need to cut down on our automobile dependence and our use of fossil fuels to generate electricity, it only dovetails into their argument.

More to the point, however, these authors have completely neglected a critical factor: the effect of an automobile-centric lifestyle on our travel needs. Simply put, our love affair with the automobile has led to a drastic increase in the number of kilometres we travel every year, which in turn led to the massive suburban sprawl which blights our landscape, which in turn leads to much larger carbon footprint for travel because the distances are so elongated by our car-centric city planning style, no matter what mode of transport you personally use. Greater use of public transit would affect not just the direct emissions, but also the way we lay out new communities and redevelop old ones.
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Re: Think twice about 'green' transport, say scientists

Post by Teebs »

It also neglects the fact that what you should be examining in your personal travel decisions (as opposed to in making transport policy) is the marginal cost to the environment.

The train will be running anyway, you riding on it will make a tiny increase in its overall pollution. On the other hand, getting into your car means a car that otherwise would not be polluting is churning it out.
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Re: Think twice about 'green' transport, say scientists

Post by Coyote »

Well, I can say I've never been a big fan of diesel busses. Busses on bus routes tend to spew a lot of particulates, and they do it all day long... whereas I drive my SUV to work once, park it, and drive back, and park it. My SUV doesn't continue to drive around in circles all day like a bus on a route does-- sometimes full, sometimes empty.

That said, an electric train, generated by mostly clean powerplants, is still a superior choice. Or plug-ins for short commutes, also generated by non-fossil fuels.

As long as the source of the power is guaranteed to remain coal or oil, sure, the argument can be made. But if we can run the same trains from wind, solar, nuclear, etc, the support erodes.
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Re: Think twice about 'green' transport, say scientists

Post by Darth Wong »

I think it's also worth pointing out that there's a pretty obvious flaw in the reasoning. Let's re-phrase it to make it more obvious:

"If people switch to public transit en masse, it won't help the environment much because buses and subways are currently under-utilized, and half-empty buses and trains are actually not very efficient".

See the problem?
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Re: Think twice about 'green' transport, say scientists

Post by Tolya »

And yet we are being told that public transport is the way to go and cars are TEH EVIL!!!11OMG1!shift+1!

I am reminded by those poor idiots who were made to think Toyota Prius is a "green car". A VW Fox at that time had better mileage while having an all-combustion engine. Not to mention that those batteries in Prius are toxic bitches and their production pollutes the environment much more than a normal car.

And then I think by all those Hollywood celebs who at one time made a point by having a Prius and being able to brag before the world that "they are doing their part for the planet". Hypocritic fucktards.

And about buses: a good idea is to have buses running on natural gas - CNG. We have couple of those in Poland and their emission level is close to zero.

And as for the trains... it depends where do we get our electricity. Let's for once imagine a better, happier world, where most of our electricity is generated by nuclear power. In Poland that would 1) guarantee real energetic independence (from Russia) 2) most probably cut down energy bills 3) stop us from being dependent on obsolete fossil fuel technology.

From what I heard Sweden runs nuclear for the most part and everyone is happy about it. And their biggest, four-reactor plant in Varberg produces enough juice to satisfy TWENTY FUCKING PERCENT of annual energy consumption of the ENTIRE country. Just one plant!

And yet there are people who protest against nuclear plants and have the audacity to actually claim that they are saving the environment. Grrr...
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Re: Think twice about 'green' transport, say scientists

Post by Isolder74 »

I don't understand that article. Even if the buses burn more each all the one I ride are always at least half full.

If all 10 of those people drove a SUV instead that would quadruple or worse the pollution of all those people on that bus. If the bus was full up that takes at least a dozen cars off the road. The train takes even more off the road.

If you really think about it the only problem with public transport is you can only carry what you could on your person. That is the only downside I can come up with.
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Re: Think twice about 'green' transport, say scientists

Post by Themightytom »

These often-unacknowledged factors add substantially to the global-warming burden.

In fact, they add 63 percent to the "tailpipe" emissions of a car, 31 percent to those of a plane, and 55 percent to those of a train.
The paper points out that the "tailpipe" quotient does not include emissions that come from building transport infrastructure -- railways, airport terminals, roads and so on -- nor the emissions that come from maintaining this infrastructure over its operational lifetime.
Force lord I think they are talking about supportive infrastructure. They are saying that while a train from A to B is more efficient, heating the station and stops wastes energy and depending on the system and energy source a car can be more efficient.

Which as Mike points out is saying "green energy isn't perfect so why bother.

To clarify I think the article is written to imply this, not the study. The author of the article dropped in prhases like
Well, there could be a nasty surprise in store for you, for taking public transport may not be as green as you automatically think, says a new US study.
These are hidden or displaced emissions that ramp up the simple "tailpipe" tally, which is based on how much carbon is spewed out by the fossil fuels used to make a trip.
So getting a complete view of the ultimate environmental cost of the type of transport, over its entire lifespan, should help decision-makers to make smarter investments.
its difficult to tell whether the author refers to political decision makers or consumers, but ultimately the "decision makers" should recognize that a developemental model should strive for the ideal, even iff itt has to accept interim solutions.
For travelling distances up to, say, 1,000 kilometres (600 miles), "we can ask questions as to whether it's better to invest in a long-distance railway, improving the air corridor or boosting car occupancy," said Chester
To where? Boston to new York, its a train, Boston to springfield illinois, mmm I would go with train to general vicnity THEN car. The "Hidden tailpipe" costs are ameliorated by the number of passengers they serve, so the first, best thing we can do is get people using existing systems and then refine them, not bring your SUV to the city...

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Re: Think twice about 'green' transport, say scientists

Post by Serafina »

Point-by point calculation of CO2-emissing is useless.
Of course some stuff is pretty dirty right now, and it MAY be better to do something else.
But what really matters is what impact it will have in the future.

To make it specific: A train may be emission-inefficient right now. But if no one is riding the train, we will propably never see more efficient ones, or an upgrade to the infrastructure.
Same goes for the emission-efficiency of the energy used to run the trains or busses: It's not going to improve if no one is using them.

Calculating that a quarter-full train is less efficient than a full SUV and then using it as an argument for the SUV is pretty stupid. What matters is how we can transport X amount of people over Y distance for as low a CO2-emission as possible, not a per-case calculation. And a well-built, green-energy train network that is three-quarters full is better on the long run.
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Re: Think twice about 'green' transport, say scientists

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Isolder74 wrote:If you really think about it the only problem with public transport is you can only carry what you could on your person. That is the only downside I can come up with.
And that's precisely why I bought myself a Hybrid car; I'm in construction and have to move around alot, plus lug around up to a couple of hundred pounds worth of tools and supplies. Public transportation just isn't an option, never minding the fact I can be working in new areas where it doesn't even exist yet.

I can drive all around the city for around two weeks on a single tank of gas (comes out to about ten gallons). My last tank of gas I made it up to 47 MGP.

Many of my co workers drive very large gas guzzling trucks, and usually aren't carrying more in tools than I am. But then, having a big truck like that confirms you have a big dick, right?
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Re: Think twice about 'green' transport, say scientists

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I wonder which would be more inefficient, a train running with no one in it, or a number of SUVs to carry the same passenger capacity driving with no one in them. If you are going to compare running vehicles not being used, you have to compare them to other running vehicles not being used, right?
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Re: Think twice about 'green' transport, say scientists

Post by Arthur_Tuxedo »

The other problem here is they're giving advice at the margin, but they're using average emissions and not marginal emissions. If you drive your car into town, you're contributing the full amount of its CO2 exhaust into the atmosphere, but if you take the train (even one that's less efficient per rider), you're not contributing anywhere near that much. The same train would have run at the same time anyway, and one extra passenger makes almost no difference in the emissions it puts out. The individual rider's marginal emissions are basically zero.
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Re: Think twice about 'green' transport, say scientists

Post by Junghalli »

Isolder74 wrote:If you really think about it the only problem with public transport is you can only carry what you could on your person. That is the only downside I can come up with.
If you're talking about downsides in general there are various ways in which cars are more convenient (no wait-time and no transfers, chiefly), especially with the kind of shitty public transit some cities have.

A personal anecdote for what it's worth: I remember one time I had a job at a store across town. I had somebody drive me there and it took something like twenty minutes, then I took the bus back and it was more like an hour. I was shocked at how much longer the bus took. The bus service here just sucks massive donkey balls.
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Re: Think twice about 'green' transport, say scientists

Post by PeZook »

Their interpretation of the results is incredibly shitty.

As others have mentioned, they should be measuring marginal pollution. But guys, take note:

Riding an empty train actually decreases its pollution per passenger!

Their main problem was that trains and busses are underutilized. Therefore, not only do you keep one car off the road, you also help the transport system you chose become more, not less, efficient by increasing ridership. In essence, marginal emissions are negative with each additional passenger (an empty train with just the operator emits X per passenger, a train with the operator and one passenger emits X/2).

The only danger here is bad maths.
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Re: Think twice about 'green' transport, say scientists

Post by Alerik the Fortunate »

There seems to be a whole business springing up in the U.S. in particular based on saying green isn't really green, and changing your lifestyle doesn't give benefits worth the hassle, so just keep on the same consumerism and feel free to look down on people who are trying to change things as useless self-righteous ideologues. It's one thing to point out the real costs and imperfections of alternative transport and power which may be glossed over by their more enthusiastic supporters, but too many writers have used that to justify the absurd notion that our current lifestyle is the best model for long term living that we have yet found, and any problems that do occur will simply be solved by technology/capitalism/American ingenuity.
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Re: Think twice about 'green' transport, say scientists

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Alerik the Fortunate wrote:There seems to be a whole business springing up in the U.S. in particular based on saying green isn't really green, and changing your lifestyle doesn't give benefits worth the hassle, so just keep on the same consumerism and feel free to look down on people who are trying to change things as useless self-righteous ideologues. It's one thing to point out the real costs and imperfections of alternative transport and power which may be glossed over by their more enthusiastic supporters, but too many writers have used that to justify the absurd notion that our current lifestyle is the best model for long term living that we have yet found, and any problems that do occur will simply be solved by technology/capitalism/American ingenuity.
No, it's the same business which for decades has been in place in this country to scare/con people in this country away from any alternative idea to our present mode of doing things if it threatens the profit structure of the current business powers-that-be, or is perceived to. They're called "corporate shills".
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Re: Think twice about 'green' transport, say scientists

Post by Coyote »

Boise is bad about public transportation. It has a very thin bus system with only a few routes once one is out of the downtown area (which is small). Naturally, this results in low ridership, which of course is used to argue against any expansion of the bus service because "no one rides it anyway".

On a positive note, almost all of Boise's busses are compressed natural gas, now. If more people rode the bus, it would create more demand. Boise is looking ta light-rail alternatives and street trolleys now, but as much as I hate to say it, I think ther're trying to bite off more than they can chew. Trolleys and trains have pretty much zero infrastructure; everything will have to be built from scratch. They should just expand busses until we have the tax base to support train/trolley expansion.

Having a truly regional bus network with the nearby towns like Kuna, Eagle, Meridian and eventually Nampa and Caldwell would help, because then they could pool the costs... when the whol greater metropolitan area around Boise is taken together, we have half a million people. That should be enough to make a bus system on.
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Re: Think twice about 'green' transport, say scientists

Post by Simon_Jester »

Nephtys wrote:Summary: A super green ultra train is still net polluting per person more than your 4 MPG SUV, provided that nobody's riding it.

Which may well be a valid point. I rode the San Diego <-> LA Metrolink train quite a few times on various days (Fri/Sat/Sun), and it was almost always near empty during morning or afternoon runs, and only somewhat full-ish during Friday evenings.
As Teebs and Arthur_Tuxedo pointed out, the catch is that the trains (and buses) still run, and still burn fuel, whether you ride them or not. The emissions may be high, but the marginal cost in emissions for adding a single rider is effectively zero. So as an individual, you still minimize your carbon footprint by taking the existing mass transit infrastructure. The net amount of fuel burned in the metropolitan area goes down when you ride the bus, even if you are now travelling on a less efficient vehicle.

What this does tell us is that mass transit routes that are unlikely to experience heavy use are carbon-inefficient- if one bus burns as much gasoline as ten cars, then it's obviously poor fuel economy to run a bus along a route that only five or six people will ride. But that shouldn't come as a surprise. It's an argument for using "mini-bus" vehicles at off hours, cutting back on the number of trains that run in a subway, and so forth... which mass transit systems already do anyway.
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Tolya wrote:And yet we are being told that public transport is the way to go and cars are TEH EVIL!!!11OMG1!shift+1!
Well, if it's reasonably possible, public transport is the way to go. The best way for you, personally, to burn as little fuel as possible is to get a ride on some vehicle that was already going to your destination anyway. Like a bus.

Of course, public transport is a stupid idea in places so sparsely populated that there aren't enough riders to support the system. But we already knew that.
I am reminded by those poor idiots who were made to think Toyota Prius is a "green car". A VW Fox at that time had better mileage while having an all-combustion engine. Not to mention that those batteries in Prius are toxic bitches and their production pollutes the environment much more than a normal car.
That said, we know how to deal with chemical pollution much better than we know how to deal with greenhouse gases. Trading a certain amount of gasoline burned per year for a certain amount of heavy metal pollution per year may be worth while.
And as for the trains... it depends where do we get our electricity. Let's for once imagine a better, happier world, where most of our electricity is generated by nuclear power. In Poland that would 1) guarantee real energetic independence (from Russia) 2) most probably cut down energy bills 3) stop us from being dependent on obsolete fossil fuel technology.
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Re: Think twice about 'green' transport, say scientists

Post by Isolder74 »

Simon_Jester wrote:Devil's advocacy for a moment: what happens when we hit peak uranium?
We use Plutonium..... :P

That can be made from the Uranium we can't use in the reactor.
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Re: Think twice about 'green' transport, say scientists

Post by PeZook »

Simon_Jester wrote:Devil's advocacy for a moment: what happens when we hit peak uranium?
By the time we do, if we still won't have easy access to the resources of the rest of our solar system, it means we don't deserve to survive as a species.n
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Re: Think twice about 'green' transport, say scientists

Post by Patrick Degan »

Simon_Jester wrote:
And as for the trains... it depends where do we get our electricity. Let's for once imagine a better, happier world, where most of our electricity is generated by nuclear power. In Poland that would 1) guarantee real energetic independence (from Russia) 2) most probably cut down energy bills 3) stop us from being dependent on obsolete fossil fuel technology.
Devil's advocacy for a moment: what happens when we hit peak uranium?
You mean in about a billion years or longer?
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Re: Think twice about 'green' transport, say scientists

Post by Junghalli »

PeZook wrote:By the time we do, if we still won't have easy access to the resources of the rest of our solar system, it means we don't deserve to survive as a species.n
Not to mention I imagine we'll probably have figured out fusion by then. And peak deuterium would simply be a nonissue with anything remotely close to present power usage: the stuff is something like .05% of all the hydrogen in water as I remember.
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Nephtys
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Re: Think twice about 'green' transport, say scientists

Post by Nephtys »

Patrick Degan wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:
And as for the trains... it depends where do we get our electricity. Let's for once imagine a better, happier world, where most of our electricity is generated by nuclear power. In Poland that would 1) guarantee real energetic independence (from Russia) 2) most probably cut down energy bills 3) stop us from being dependent on obsolete fossil fuel technology.
Devil's advocacy for a moment: what happens when we hit peak uranium?
At that point, our fossil fuels would have been restocked thanks to thousands of generations of dead lizards.
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Re: Think twice about 'green' transport, say scientists

Post by Teebs »

PeZook wrote:Their interpretation of the results is incredibly shitty.

As others have mentioned, they should be measuring marginal pollution. But guys, take note:

Riding an empty train actually decreases its pollution per passenger!

Their main problem was that trains and busses are underutilized. Therefore, not only do you keep one car off the road, you also help the transport system you chose become more, not less, efficient by increasing ridership. In essence, marginal emissions are negative with each additional passenger (an empty train with just the operator emits X per passenger, a train with the operator and one passenger emits X/2).

The only danger here is bad maths.
Sorry but I can't resist... While I agree with your point, you're also using bad maths. Marginal emissions are not negative with each extra passenger. The marginal change is the change in the total emissions and obviously an extra passenger on a bus will not reduce its total emissions. The passenger would have a marginal emission that is close to zero and so would cause plunging average emissions. Nitpicky, but you were talking about bad maths :P
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