Streetfighter 4 fucking sucks, and MK vs DC Rules

[Vympel]

I've had a couple of goes at Streetfighter 4 (friends copies) on PS3 in the past few weeks - and, not surprisingly, my opinion of Streetfighter is unchanged (I'm pretty sure it's well known). It's a shit, overrated series. I hate it's stupid looks, I hate its lame characters, I hate it's bullshit combat style, and I hate the way special moves are performed.

What I have always liked about Mortal Kombat is how effortless special moves are to perform compared to Streetfighter's bullshit style - if I want to pull off a move, it's tap-back THEN tap-down THEN tap the attack button. It's easy, it's quick, and you'll never, ever, fuck it up (unless your memory sucks).

Streetfighter's moves have always seemed to me to be designed to piss the casual player off and make the Streetfighter-fanbois feel superior - doing a hadoken for example is a giant pain in the arse - it's hard to describe how you're meant to do them, but you know what I mean - doing a hadoken looks like you're performing some sort of magic incantation, it's just shit, and unless you have practice at it, you'll fail more often than you succeed.

But the combat style generally is what I've always hated - watching champion Streetfighter youtubes, it's amazing at how fucking boring it all is - they spastically shunt to and fro over a few centimetres on the screen, punching at the air, because there's no *flow* and *distance* to your attacks - it's all static shit - quite different to the way superior (yeah, I said it) fighters like MK, Tekken, and Soulcalibur do it.

Anyway, I recently picked up Mortal Kombat vs DC for PS3 off of Ebay (new) for $25AUD, and it was a fucking bargain. This game rocks. The storyline actually works (for a fighting game), everything appears seamless, they take pains to explain how guys you'd never expect to win (The Joker, for example) do win, and it all just feels right. It's got the usual Mortal Kombat fighting style (all characters do not have all the same basic moves, that's not what I mean, I just mean the way it feels), and fatalities are retained for villain DC characters and all MK characters (DC heroes have 'heroic brutalities' instead, since their killing their enemies is inappropriate).

It also tries some new stuff (for fighting games anyway) that I think works pretty well - namely quick time events that you can initiate during fights - the punchout fights you have in the air are decided in this way, as are close-in punchups you can initiate with the shoulder buttons - if your opponent doesn't match your moves, you'll do massive damage, but if he does he can very easily turn it around on you, making it exciting and risky.

And of course, just as a cheap shot, the classic MK narrator is way better than the "GNARLY COWABUNGA DUDE!" wanker that Streetfighter IV has.

(Hilarious moment - Captain Marvel reveals to the DC villain team that "Dark Khan" (Shao Khan + Darkseid) is their enemy - to which the Joker yells out KHHHHHAAAAAAN, Captain Kirk style. Deathstroke tells him to shut up)

Frankly, the scores MK vs DC got compared to SIV's scores just stink like bullshit.

[Oskuro]

Hilarious moment - Captain Marvel reveals to the DC villain team that "Dark Khan" (Shao Khan + Darkseid) is their enemy - to which the Joker yells out KHHHHHAAAAAAN, Captain Kirk style. Deathstroke tells him to shut up

Pure WIN. I was personally unimpressed by SFIV, but then again I'm more of a Samurai Shodown type of guy.

[white_rabbit]

I have to agree in pretty much every way there. Streetfighter was just, I dunno, naff.

MK V DC, despite the flaws that have somehow become core concepts for MK, is fun.

And nooo, it totally doesn't show that Scorp and Sub-zero are the boss guys fav characters, no sir.

[SAMAS]

I've had a couple of goes at Streetfighter 4 (friends copies) on PS3 in the past few weeks - and, not surprisingly, my opinion of Streetfighter is unchanged (I'm pretty sure it's well known). It's a shit, overrated series. I hate it's stupid looks, I hate its lame characters, I hate it's bullshit combat style, and I hate the way special moves are performed.

What I have always liked about Mortal Kombat is how effortless special moves are to perform compared to Streetfighter's bullshit style - if I want to pull off a move, it's tap-back THEN tap-down THEN tap the attack button. It's easy, it's quick, and you'll never, ever, fuck it up (unless your memory sucks).

Streetfighter's moves have always seemed to me to be designed to piss the casual player off and make the Streetfighter-fanbois feel superior - doing a hadoken for example is a giant pain in the arse - it's hard to describe how you're meant to do them, but you know what I mean - doing a hadoken looks like you're performing some sort of magic incantation, it's just shit, and unless you have practice at it, you'll fail more often than you succeed.

Really? You find one of... not only one of the most basic fighting game motions, but one of the first, hard to do? Are you playing on a keyboard or what? It's a simple stick/pad rotation! Not even a full circle! Down-to-Forward, hit punch. It's not only simple, it's far more intuitive than Back-to-down.

I mean damn, I remember when I thought the Dragon Punch was a hard move to do, but I could do a QCF before I was even mediocre at the game.

On the other hand, it does explain why you don't like SF right there.

But the combat style generally is what I've always hated - watching champion Streetfighter youtubes, it's amazing at how fucking boring it all is - they spastically shunt to and fro over a few centimetres on the screen, punching at the air, because there's no *flow* and *distance* to your attacks - it's all static shit - quite different to the way superior (yeah, I said it) fighters like MK, Tekken, and Soulcalibur do it.

That's because it's Tournament Play. People play differently in a tournament than they do for fun (usually). You can't afford to make as many mistakes as you do just messing around with your friends. So you get a lot of feints and small attacks to start, since they can't be punished as well.

Other times, you get this.

On the other hand, MK is pretty rare in tournaments.

Anyway, I recently picked up Mortal Kombat vs DC for PS3 off of Ebay (new) for $25AUD, and it was a fucking bargain. This game rocks. The storyline actually works (for a fighting game), everything appears seamless, they take pains to explain how guys you'd never expect to win (The Joker, for example) do win, and it all just feels right. It's got the usual Mortal Kombat fighting style (all characters do not have all the same basic moves, that's not what I mean, I just mean the way it feels), and fatalities are retained for villain DC characters and all MK characters (DC heroes have 'heroic brutalities' instead, since their killing their enemies is inappropriate).

I always wondered how anyone could see some of those as "survivable".

It also tries some new stuff (for fighting games anyway) that I think works pretty well - namely quick time events that you can initiate during fights - the punchout fights you have in the air are decided in this way, as are close-in punchups you can initiate with the shoulder buttons - if your opponent doesn't match your moves, you'll do massive damage, but if he does he can very easily turn it around on you, making it exciting and risky.

So you think the mechanic people are getting sick of in every other genre is just what fighting games need?

[Stark]

Is this the longest post on the internet ever on the theme 'I can't do a quarter roll forward'?

Back in the day (we were all twelve) the SF controls made more sense with a physical stick. Earlier ports to older consoles, like SNES etc, had to really fudge it up to get anywhere near the reliability on move execution that you'd have in the arcade - where ironically the MK system was harder.

Anyone who says 'QTE' and 'good' is to be ignored, of course; let's make combat MOAR RANDOMZ. No wonder the 'tournament' toolbars hate MKvDC.

[Vendetta]

It also tries some new stuff (for fighting games anyway) that I think works pretty well - namely quick time events that you can initiate during fights - the punchout fights you have in the air are decided in this way, as are close-in punchups you can initiate with the shoulder buttons - if your opponent doesn't match your moves, you'll do massive damage, but if he does he can very easily turn it around on you, making it exciting and risky.

You mean it steals from DBZ Budokai? A last gen game. But that's supposed to be random and silly.

Really? You find one of... not only one of the most basic fighting game motions, but one of the first, hard to do?

Never mind the fact that QCF+Punch is almost universally guaranteed to do something useful in almost every fighting game ever, precisely because it's so ingrained in the psyche of fighting game players.

I mean if you complained about the Shoryuken, that would be different (though if you have a stick it's easy enough if you don't think about the directions and just make a Z with the stick movement), but QCF+Punch is the quintessential fighting game thing.

[Oskuro]

The game would probably benefit from an arcade-style Joystick, with big buttons to mash frantically. Most fighting games would. I tried SFIV on the XBOX, and the sticks were just too sensitive. I'm guessing there are some arcade-style USB gamepads for sale wich could be plugged into the PS3 at least, that would probably be sweet.

[Stark]

The older consoles had that sort of thing, but it turns out it's useless for every other kind of game. It's a shame you can't just use older ones; the ones they sell in AU are 'premium' 'arcade-quality' (ps every kid from the 80s knows arcade sticks suck) units.

[Vympel]

Really? You find one of... not only one of the most basic fighting game motions, but one of the first, hard to do? Are you playing on a keyboard or what? It's a simple stick/pad rotation! Not even a full circle! Down-to-Forward, hit punch. It's not only simple, it's far more intuitive than Back-to-down.

I never played Streetfighter in the arcade, because I wasn't a goon who was going to cough up dollars to play a video game in public for a few minutes over and over and over and over and over until I got wicked good at it. I first played it seriously on Megadrive / Genesis, the controls sucked then and they still suck now. Frankly, if a console fighting game needs a seperate arcade stick that costs an arm and a leg for the moves to be intuitive, it has failed as a game.

So you think the mechanic people are getting sick of in every other genre is just what fighting games need?

Let em get sick of it. It's well implemented.

Anyone who says 'QTE' and 'good' is to be ignored, of course; let's make combat MOAR RANDOMZ. No wonder the 'tournament' toolbars hate MKvDC.

What's random about QTE? You initiate every punch/strike, and if you don't push a button, nothing happens. Your opponent just has to be on the ball to see what you're doing, if he is, there's a good chance he'll turn it around on you.

[Stark]

QTE just sucks, especially competitively. But airfighting in SF sucks anyway, so it's not like it's a big hit for MKvDC.

[Vympel]

Watching Green Lantern smash the shit out of someone as they fall through the air (you're not flying, you're falling) and then conjure up a big-ass green buzzsaw to do massive damage right before they smash into the secondary arena (complete with crater) speaks for itself in awesome.

[Stark]

Should I repeat the whole 'DBZ games did it better years ago' thing?

Well y'know not 'better'... but ... y'know.

[Vympel]

Fuck DBZ, dude.

[Lord Woodlouse]

I tried it with a the special joystic thing on Zaia's brother's 360, and I have to say the whole thing felt incredibly slow and cumbersome. Last time I played SF2, I think, was probably a port for the Amiga and I didn't much like it then. I've never quite been able to get the appeal of it.

Having said that, the only fighting game I've had any experience with in recent years has been Super Smash Bros: Brawl on the Wii, so maybe I've been conditioned in nonsensical opposite direction.

[Oskuro]

Wich DBZ game? The old ones that focused on their particular gameplay style? Or the new ones wich cater to fanboys (much like the Naruto games) and tend to forget they are a fighting game?

Now, I like the style choices of the new SF, keeping in touch with the original look but using new graphics and a more spectacular presentation. What I don't like is that the gameplay suffers from the same ailment as many recent fighting games, being very fast paced and confusing, often meaning you win by pulling out combos randomly.

Admitedly, I haven't played many recent fighting games, but I can't help but LOL when I hear my flatmate scream through Live when his opponent wipes the floor with him using the same repetitive cheap combo. Wich is always. I'm begining to suspect he might not be as good a player as he styles himself to be.

[Stark]

Are you for real? 'Forgot they were fighting games'? Turns out there are whole other ways to build a fighting game that aren't rehashes of lame games from the 90s?

Frankly Tenkaichi + DC licence = cool game; you wouldn't even have to power everyone down.

[Oskuro]

Ok, I haven't played all of them, but the latest installments of the DBZ games put too much emphasis on showing stuff from the series. For example, there was this one where Gohan, in his superhero disguise, had this obnoxious move where he would tell you his name, wich led to a horrible quicktime event.

Then there was this Naruto game that had a full-blown animation pop up every 1 and a half moves, wich the fans of the series loved, of course, since watching the same piece of animation you've already seen on the series for the umpthillionth time does make for a great fighting game.

Of course, there's also all this not caring for those franchises I've been doing for a long time now, so I might have missed some good DBZ games, but every time I see a new DBZ game with FULL SCREEN SUPER DRAMATIC KAMEHAMEHA ANIMATION my eyes roll so hard I lose balance.

[Ghost Rider]

LMAO...gods and here I thought MKvsDC would just curl up and die. As a $20 bargain bin game, it's as fun as it gets with whacky BS story, bad VAing, and a whole host of mechanics that scream "ABUSE ME!". SFIV is not the revolution, and that boat sailed with SFII...capcom just needs to deal.

[SAMAS]

Really? You find one of... not only one of the most basic fighting game motions, but one of the first, hard to do? Are you playing on a keyboard or what? It's a simple stick/pad rotation! Not even a full circle! Down-to-Forward, hit punch. It's not only simple, it's far more intuitive than Back-to-down.

I never played Streetfighter in the arcade, because I wasn't a goon who was going to cough up dollars to play a video game in public for a few minutes over and over and over and over and over until I got wicked good at it. I first played it seriously on Megadrive / Genesis, the controls sucked then and they still suck now. Frankly, if a console fighting game needs a seperate arcade stick that costs an arm and a leg for the moves to be intuitive, it has failed as a game.

I think I played more console Fighting games than arcade ones when I was a kid, and probably as an Adult too, given how rare Arcades are now. And I had Special Champion Edition, the Genesis/MD one you mentioned, too. No problems there. I mean, if they could implement that motion in a Final Fantasy game with nobody complaining, the problem is not on their end. You just suck at the SF/KoF/GG/etc... style.

Besides, it was SCE that gave the Genesis it's six-button controller.

So you think the mechanic people are getting sick of in every other genre is just what fighting games need?

Let em get sick of it. It's well implemented.

Anyone who says 'QTE' and 'good' is to be ignored, of course; let's make combat MOAR RANDOMZ. No wonder the 'tournament' toolbars hate MKvDC.

What's random about QTE? You initiate every punch/strike, and if you don't push a button, nothing happens. Your opponent just has to be on the ball to see what you're doing, if he is, there's a good chance he'll turn it around on you.

No, he means random in the "At any given moment, the play style and flow of the game could suddenly change" sense.

Now I don't have too much of a problem with QTE when they're done right, as they can allow you to pull off things you may not be able to do otherwise. I mean, Samurai Showdown did it first with the Weapon Clashes long before MK vs DC, but those were much better integrated with the gameplay.

But far too often, what happens is that you suddenly find yourself having to play a minigame in the middle of the real game. I shouldn't have to interrupt my game in order to play Simon.

I tried it with a the special joystic thing on Zaia's brother's 360, and I have to say the whole thing felt incredibly slow and cumbersome. Last time I played SF2, I think, was probably a port for the Amiga and I didn't much like it then. I've never quite been able to get the appeal of it.

Ouch. I'd heard that the computer ports of that game were all terrible. If that was your introduction, you have my condolences.

Having said that, the only fighting game I've had any experience with in recent years has been Super Smash Bros: Brawl on the Wii, so maybe I've been conditioned in nonsensical opposite direction.

Nah, I love Smash Bros too. It's just a different type of game.

But I will admit that over a rather short period of time, Fighting games starting getting geared towards Fighting game players. Not necessarily catering to the hardcore set, but they usually assumed you knew certain basics before you started playing the game.

[Stark]

Rah, I'd say since the late 90s 2d fighting games (including faux 3d like tekken soul calibur etc) became aimed at crazy cmbo memorieing, frame-counting 'hardcore' players. You CAN play them as a normal person, but they cater to that extreme.

I'm lolling at Oskuros argument from ignorance. Tenkaichi (which a lot of people don't like) is pretty much what any super fighting game should be. The fact that it's DBZ is entirely irrelevant to me; it's got full 3d movement, variable power level characters, huge airbourne fights, attacks that deform and destroy the world, etc.

[SAMAS]

Rah, I'd say since the late 90s 2d fighting games (including faux 3d like tekken soul calibur etc) became aimed at crazy cmbo memorieing, frame-counting 'hardcore' players. You CAN play them as a normal person, but they cater to that extreme.

Well, I know Guilty Gear at least tried to reduce the importance of combos by reducing the damage of each successive hit (so long combos more or less gave diminishing returns), but frame-counting... Yeah, Tournament and so-called "professional" players.

I'm lolling at Oskuros argument from ignorance. Tenkaichi (which a lot of people don't like) is pretty much what any super fighting game should be. The fact that it's DBZ is entirely irrelevant to me; it's got full 3d movement, variable power level characters, huge airbourne fights, attacks that deform and destroy the world, etc.

I'd heard that the second or third was really really good, but I know nothing about the series since then.

[Stark]

I've only played DBZ Budokai Tenkaichi 2 (lol at name), but 3 is apparently just a slightly polished version. I was particularly impressed that by including something like 80 characters (from the series apparently) it's got everything from General Tao (who can't fly, has no pew pews, and whose special moves involve grenades and pretending to surrender before crowning the enemy with a 2x4) to the super-super-saiyan-gorilla modes for everyone, the fusion guys with ultra-mega speed and teleport and world-destroying superpowers etc. The game is built around the idea of flying 3d fights (with varying altitude etc), ranged attacks, and teleporting/superspeed so it works better than hacking it in later - the only real downside is the clunky 'largely unchanged since PS2' control system. I played the Wii version, and actually doing the hadoken motion with your hands to do the giant beam attack is FUCKING BOSS.

[Oskuro]

I'm lolling at Oskuros argument from ignorance. Tenkaichi (which a lot of people don't like) is pretty much what any super fighting game should be. The fact that it's DBZ is entirely irrelevant to me; it's got full 3d movement, variable power level characters, huge airbourne fights, attacks that deform and destroy the world, etc.

And I'm groaning at your cherry picking. The trend of anime cash-in games who put more emphasis on pandering to the fans of the material than actual gameplay is nothing new, and the DBZ franchise has been guilty of this multiple times. I don't deny there are some good games in there (same with other franchises), but there's a lot of completely forgettable crap.

It being DBZ might be completely irrelevant to you, as it is to me, but it isn't to the raving fanboy hordes who buy whatever comes out with a hyper-musculed glowing blonde on the cover.

[Vendetta]

And I'm groaning at your cherry picking. The trend of anime cash-in games who put more emphasis on pandering to the fans of the material than actual gameplay is nothing new, and the DBZ franchise has been guilty of this multiple times. I don't deny there are some good games in there (same with other franchises), but there's a lot of completely forgettable crap.

Except this thread is not about DBZ games, but about fighting games, particularly ones with silly superheroes. The fact that there are shit DBZ games doesn't mean Budokai didn't do silly superhero fighting about as well as it can be done.

[Oskuro]

Yeah, I know, sorry, Stark's hate has the side-effect of derailing my posts.