Should Scott Roeder be tortured to prevent future attacks?

[Dominus Atheos]

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By every definition the guy who shot Dr Tiller is a terrorist, and there's reason to believe he may have information other people who might be likely to commit terrorists acts or even be planning one right now that might kill more innocent people. This blog I was reading posed an interesting question:

One of the most important reasons for detaining terrorists (suspected or otherwise) is to obtain information about future terrorist attacks that may save lives and prevent future bombings. To procure this information, can the government dispense with the usual constitutional and legal safeguards against coercive interrogation? Should it be able to subject Roeder to enhanced interrogation techniques, including waterboarding and other methods, to determine whether Roeder knows of any other persons who are likely to commit violence against abortion clinics or against abortion providers in the future? Would your answer change if you believed that an attack on an abortion provider or a bombing of an abortion clinic was imminent?

There seem to be some people who believe that it's OK to torture someone if we suspect they have any knowledge of any future terrorist attacks and/or knowledge of other people who might carry out future attacks, since it would save lives. We suspect Scott Roeder may have knowledge of future attacks and/or knowledge of other people who might carry out future attacks, and finding out about those now might save lives. Therefore it fits with that reasoning that we should torture Scott Roeder. And like the question says, would your answer change if there was a ticking time bomb in an abortion clinic right now?

Obviously I'm mostly interested in the opinions of people who oppose torture of Scott Roeder but support it on suspected terrorists.

[Plekhanov]

Roeder has actually boasted that he's aware of future terrorist attacks on abortion providers, as such wouldn't this count as one of those 'ticking clock' type scenarios torture enthusiasts use to try and legitimise torture?

Suspect in Kan. doctor's death warns of violence

By ROXANA HEGEMAN, Associated Press Writer Roxana Hegeman, Associated Press Writer – Sun Jun 7, 3:18 pm ET

WICHITA, Kan. – The man charged with killing abortion provider Dr. George Tiller claimed Sunday that more violence is possible while the medical procedure is allowed to continue, giving his warning in calls that also focused on complaints about his treatment in jail.

Scott Roeder, being held on charges of first-degree murder and aggravated assault in Tiller's killing one week ago, called The Associated Press from the Sedgwick County jail.

Tiller, whose Wichita clinic was among only a few in the U.S. performing third-trimester abortions, was shot while serving as an usher at the Lutheran church he attended.

"I know there are many other similar events planned around the country as long as abortion remains legal," Roeder said.

He would not elaborate.

Tiller's clinic in Wichita had been a target of regular demonstrations by abortion opponents. Most were peaceful, but his clinic was bombed in 1986 and he was shot in both arms in 1993. In 1991, a 45-day "Summer of Mercy" campaign organized by Operation Rescue drew thousands of abortion opponents to Wichita, and there were more than 2,700 arrests.

Jim Cross, a spokesman for the U.S. attorney's office, did not have an immediate comment Sunday on Roeder's statement.

The Justice Department opened an investigation Friday to see if the gunman who killed Tiller had accomplices. The DOJ said its Civil Rights Division and the U.S. attorney's office in Kansas will seek to determine if the killing violated a 1994 law creating criminal penalties for violent or damaging conduct toward abortion providers and their patients.

An attorney for the Tiller family, Dan Monnat, said he wasn't sure they should be dignifying Roeder's actions and threats with a response "every time he makes a hare-brained phone call."

"I am hopeful that state and federal authorities, including homeland security, will give Mr. Roeder and his information a deserving response," Monnat said, declining to elaborate.

A funeral was held Saturday for Tiller. Most anti-abortion groups avoided the service, having denounced Tiller's shooting.

Roeder, a 51-year-old abortion opponent, was arrested a few hours after the shooting just outside Kansas City.

He told the AP he refused to talk to investigators when he was arrested, and has made no statements to police since then.

"I just told them I needed to talk to my lawyer," Roeder said.

Asked if he shot Tiller, Roeder replied that he could not comment about that and said he needed to clear everything with his lawyer.

In two separate calls to AP on Sunday morning, Roeder was far more talkative about his treatment at the Sedgwick County jail, complaining about "deplorable conditions in solitary" where he was kept during his first three days there.

Roeder said it was freezing in his cell. "I started having a bad cough. I thought I was going to have pneumonia," he said.

He said he called AP because he wanted to emphasize the conditions in the jail so that in the future suspects would not have to endure the same conditions.

Roeder also said also wanted the public to know he has been denied phone privileges for the past two days, and needed his sleep apnea machine

[Darth Fanboy]

We suspect Scott Roeder may have knowledge of future attacks and/or knowledge of other people who might carry out future attacks, and finding out about those now might save lives.

In this scenario, I would ask for evidence that Scott Roeder has knowledge of future attacks in order to make these suspicions valid instead of pure speculation. You would need to have evidence that Roeder's intentions go beyond that of the Tiller murder and not just a gut feeling.

[The Romulan Republic]

Torture is wrong whoever its used against. Leaving aside the inherent issues with reliability of information.

[Plekhanov]

We suspect Scott Roeder may have knowledge of future attacks and/or knowledge of other people who might carry out future attacks, and finding out about those now might save lives.

In this scenario, I would ask for evidence that Scott Roeder has knowledge of future attacks in order to make these suspicions valid instead of pure speculation. You would need to have evidence that Roeder's intentions go beyond that of the Tiller murder and not just a gut feeling.

I know there are many other similar events planned around the country as long as abortion remains legal

Of course this still leaves issues such as the morality and efficacy of torture. But the facts would seem to be that this guy is a suspected terrorists and there's good reason to think he may have information on future terrorist attacks by the standards set out by torture apologists he would seem a prime candidate.

[Simon_Jester]

I would vote "no" for both moral and practical reasons, as outlined above. There is no evidence that Roeder knows enough to be a useful source of information, and you can make quite a good case that it would be wrong to torture him even if he did, and you can make quite a good case that torturing him for useful information sets a bad precedent that inevitably leads to people getting tortured for bad reasons.*

*See "Torture, Terrorism, and the Ticking Bomb" for more information on this.

[The Spartan]

As poetic as it would be to do so, primarily because his defenders are the same people likely to support torture on "real" terrorists, it sets a monstrously bad precedent. We simply need to move away from such nonsense.

[Solauren]

Of course he's refusing to discuss details. He wants to trade that knowledge for a reduced sentence.

Don't torture him, or anyone else.

Just tell them simply; if we become aware of any other attacks you may have had knowledge of, and don't tell us, you'll be held as a participant, and jailed accordingly. Complete with publication man. No martyrdom for you.

[White Haven]

He's 87 and already facing at least 25 years before the possibility of parole. What kind of a 'threat' is more jail time, OR a death sentence? I'm not advocating torture, but right now the legal system has /no/ stick to hold over him.

[Coyote]

He's 87 and already facing at least 25 years before the possibility of parole. What kind of a 'threat' is more jail time, OR a death sentence? I'm not advocating torture, but right now the legal system has /no/ stick to hold over him.

You're thinking of Von Brunn, the Holocaust Museum shooter. He's the old geezer. Scott Roeder is the 50-something year old guy that shot the Kansas abortion doctor. I know, all those hard-right tards all kinda look alike.

As for torture? No, for the same reason we shouldn't torture others. But these two right-wing extremists definitely should be classified as terrorists-- they certainly fit the bill, using violence to further a political agenda. And in the case of Roeder, justifying said violence with religious dogma.

[Lord of the Abyss]

Torture is both unethical and much less effective than other interrogation methods. I oppose it under all circumstances.

[White Haven]

And yeah, that was me posting while still waking up and getting Snickers-bar-level nut murderers crossed. Oops.

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

Torture is torture is wrong. This is why. Citizens quickly end up getting designated "unlawful enemy combatants" and tortured in very short order, which we all know was the goal all along.

[Ziggy Stardust]

Torture is torture is wrong. This is why. Citizens quickly end up getting designated "unlawful enemy combatants" and tortured in very short order, which we all know was the goal all along.

None of the websites on that Google search look even remotely like reliable sources of news.

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

Torture is torture is wrong. This is why. Citizens quickly end up getting designated "unlawful enemy combatants" and tortured in very short order, which we all know was the goal all along.

None of the websites on that Google search look even remotely like reliable sources of news.

Let's try this again minus the kneejerk dismissals based on dodgy ad hominems against the sources.

Metropolitan Police officers subjected suspects to waterboarding, according to allegations at the centre of a major anti-corruption inquiry, The Times has learnt.

The torture claims are part of a wide-ranging investigation which also includes accusations that officers fabricated evidence and stole suspects’ property. It has already led to the abandonment of a drug trial and the suspension of several police officers.

However, senior policing officials are most alarmed by the claim that officers in Enfield, North London, used the controversial CIA interrogation technique to simulate drowning. Scotland Yard is appointing a new borough commander in Enfield in a move that is being seen as an attempt by Sir Paul Stephenson, the Met Commissioner, to enforce a regime of “intrusive supervision”.

The waterboarding claims will fuel the debate about police conduct that has raged in the wake of hundreds of public complaints of brutality at the anti-G20 protests in April.

The part of the inquiry focusing on alleged police brutality has been taken over by the Independent Police Complaints Commission. It is examining the conduct of six officers connected to drug raids in November in which four men and a woman were arrested at addresses in Enfield and Tottenham. Police said they found a large amount of cannabis and the suspects were charged with importation of a Class C drug. The case was abandoned four months later when the Crown Prosecution Service said it would not have been in the public interest to proceed. It is understood that the trial, by revealing the torture claims, would have compromised the criminal investigation into the six officers.

None of the officers under suspicion has been arrested, but the IPCC said last night: “This is an ongoing criminal investigation and as such all six officers will be criminally interviewed under caution.”

A Scotland Yard spokesman said: “Whilst the investigation is ongoing it is not appropriate to make assumptions. These are serious allegations that raise real concern. The Met does not tolerate conduct which falls below the standards that the public and the many outstanding Met officers and staff expect.”

[Starglider]

I do not believe the (dubious) benefits of torture are worth the social costs, to say nothing of the ethics of torturing people who have not been proven guilty. However, if the US is going to persist in torturing people, it would be inconsistent to torture captured 'enemy combatants' but not this individual. US citizenship really should not qualify people for better treatment. Incidentally the same logic applies to members of organised crime syndicates, where future murders are likely.

[jcow79]

Torture is torture is wrong. This is why. Citizens quickly end up getting designated "unlawful enemy combatants" and tortured in very short order, which we all know was the goal all along.

None of the websites on that Google search look even remotely like reliable sources of news.

Let's try this again minus the kneejerk dismissals based on dodgy ad hominems against the sources.

...

Everything I've read about this was that they were dunked rather than waterboarded. Their heads were plunged into a bucket of water. Now I don't condone either of these behaviors but it seems to me that the news agencies that are labeling this as "waterboarding" are being disingenuous and relying on the buzzword to make headlines.

More to your point, I didn't see anything in that article about citizens being labled enemy combatants. Rather it seems to me a few 'bad apples' are using unauthorized methods on suspects. Brutal interrogations are nothing new when it comes to law enforcment in ANY country. It doesn't require a global war on terror, the CIA or waterboarding for bad cop to step over the line and abuse a suspect. These officers should be dealt with like any other officer that breaks the law and violates their departments interrogation policies.

..and on topic.
I do not belive Scott Roeder should be tortured nor anyone else for that matter. Standard interrogation techniques are plenty effective.