The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Forty One Up

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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Nine Up

Post by CaptainChewbacca »

EdBecerra wrote:Something's seriously wrong here...

On the one hand:
And on the other:

In the second, the phrase "street-corner pharmaceuticals" implies the sort of third-rate, adulterated crap you buy from that pusher down the block.

So which is true?

Ed.
Both. Michael doesn't know the difference. They're lying to him.
I don't think the issue of Adam's final fate has been touched on one way or another. It's possible that he's still alive. And if I'm not very much mistaken Stuart has yet to publish so there is room for revisions if he feels like it. A cameo by Adam would indeed be cool.
Adam was mentioned as being in a cage, either in hell or heaven I can't remember.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Nine Up

Post by Ilya Muromets »

CaptainChewbacca wrote:
EdBecerra wrote:Something's seriously wrong here...

On the one hand:
And on the other:

In the second, the phrase "street-corner pharmaceuticals" implies the sort of third-rate, adulterated crap you buy from that pusher down the block.

So which is true?

Ed.
Both. Michael doesn't know the difference. They're lying to him.
Damn, Chewie beat me to it. But to expand, I think the only place Michael's been getting his stuff has been from backdoor deals like this. Also, with all the precious stones in Heaven, I don't think he'd bother to haggle for price either. And if the guys he's been getting drugs from are savvy, they probably overcharge for their crap. If said crap have been the only things Micheal has bought throughout his history of Earthly visits, he would indeed not know the difference nor would he care.
I don't think the issue of Adam's final fate has been touched on one way or another. It's possible that he's still alive. And if I'm not very much mistaken Stuart has yet to publish so there is room for revisions if he feels like it. A cameo by Adam would indeed be cool.
Adam was mentioned as being in a cage, either in hell or heaven I can't remember.
Adam was supposed to have been kept in a cage in Satan's palace, for Satan's amusement. Considering how thoroughly bombed out the palace was...
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Ten Up

Post by Jamesfirecat »

"I'm actually hoping that the first bowl of wrath does accomplish something other than simply mildly inconveniencing us, because otherwise it makes the Angels look incompetent. They should know very well that we control Hell, and it's elementary logic from there that just sending people to Hell won't put them out of commission. Why bother with an attack that will be almost totally useless? I have a couple of theories on what might be happening, but my favored one is that they're diverting the souls of those people when they die and simply killing them a second time when they come out of Heaven's equivalent of the Minos Gate."


Well as for "why" they would do it I'd say that it's because God has a plan for how to pour out this many containers of Wrath, and each of them has to live up to some code he already wrote down, remember Yahweh loves his theatrics and spectacles.

Also note that this particular plague has not been changed in any way since it first showed up so it's obvious that Yahweh didn't have time to retool it do deal with the fact that we've captured the Minos Gate.

That said while since Yahweh is more powerful than Satan it's entirely possible nay probably he decides if souls go to heaven or hell when they die, but for him to redirect the souls of those killed by the plague to heaven means that he'll have to let people who don't like him into heaven something that's going to require him to swallow his ego to do, and thus we enter into the classic debate, could God create an ego so big that he himself could not swallow it....

Oh and also, I think the last thing God would want to do at the moment would be to let a bunch of portal creating humans into Heaven for ANY REASON even if he intends to give them some kind of divine torture for the rest of eternity it only takes one of them opening a portal and suddenly M1's are breaking down the pearly gates...



We'll just have to see and if nothing else buck up, there's no way that I can think of to easily
counter all that Sea Algee screwing with fish populations, though I'm surprised that the angels who dropped those bowls didn't get picked up on radar and engaged like the one bringing the anthrax did, maybe it was because they were doing it over sees.... but I thought our radar coverage would be better than that especially given that they must have done it fairly close to the shore. Unless the second bowl of wrath was poured out in a different manner than the first...
Last edited by Jamesfirecat on 2009-06-12 12:05am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Ten Up

Post by Ilya Muromets »

Jamesfirecat wrote:(Sorry should have taken the time to read up how to do proper quotes but that will do for now I guess...)
There is a quote button on the upper right of every post. Or, if you want it quick, copy the part you wanna answer and paste between quote tags (i.e., these, without the spaces: [ quote ] [ /quote ] ).
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Ten Up

Post by JN1 »

We'll just have to see and if nothing else buck up, there's no way that I can think of to easily counter all that Sea Algee screwing with fish populations,
It's not just fish stocks that are at risk, sea bird populations will also crash if the fish disappear for any length of time, as will the predators who depend on the birds. If that red bloom got into the Irish, or North Seas it could conceivably cause a catastrophic ecological disaster; the sea bird populations in the UK are already under pressure as it is.

Forgetting the birds for the moment humans will also lose an important source of food, which will put more pressure on agriculture.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Ten Up

Post by CaptainChewbacca »

It gets worse in the third bowl; The rivers and lakes also start turning to blood. I'm guessing it starts spreading up streams.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Nine Up

Post by TimothyC »

CaptainChewbacca wrote:Both. Michael doesn't know the difference. They're lying to him.
Wrong. He's gotten good stuff in Los Vegas, and in New Orleans. If he cares is another matter, after all it looks like other than weed, he doesn't do much himself.
Adam was mentioned as being in a cage, either in hell or heaven I can't remember.
It was in Satan's Palace.
Stuart in Chapter 58 wrote:The first part of the video, Abigor didn't understand. It was about things called “Adams” – wasn't Adam the first human to come to hell? He was still in Satan's palace in a little cage, if Abigor remembered correctly.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Ten Up

Post by MarshalPurnell »

"Street pharmaceuticals" could just be embellishment, a more interesting way of saying "hard drugs" rather than implying their quality. Though the potential for the Burmese junta to try to play Michael and the rest of the world is interesting. On the other hand the Burmese are not exactly paragons of cleverness; as far as their government goes it's incompetent and thuggish, and only the thuggishness has kept it in power despite the incompetence. Although I suppose from a particular point of view privileging the lifestyle of Burmese generals over the state of the nation the junta has been remarkably competent, so...
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Ten Up

Post by Junghalli »

Jamesfirecat wrote:Oh and also, I think the last thing God would want to do at the moment would be to let a bunch of portal creating humans into Heaven for ANY REASON even if he intends to give them some kind of divine torture for the rest of eternity it only takes one of them opening a portal and suddenly M1's are breaking down the pearly gates...
Not torture, just killing them as soon as they pop out. Although I can see how this might be risky.

There are other possibilities as well. For instance, Demons don't go to Hell when they die. Otherwise Abigor's defeated army would just have respawned in Hell. They seem to either die for good or go straight to the "next level", according to their own spiritual beliefs. Maybe their spawn don't go to Hell when they die either? It could be that sensitivity is somehow tied to having a Demon-like or Angel-like soul.

Heh, I wonder what would happen if you took one of those "dead gates" and just rolled a big rock in front of it, basically making a more primitive version of the iris in Stargate? Would the dead people get splattered as they came out? Would they be stuck in the void between dimensions or whatever realm souls pass through on their way to Heaven and Hell? Would they just get shunted to a different portal? Depending on how it works it might be a highly effective way of bumping off souls.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Ten Up

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Darth Wong wrote:If I were Kim Jong-Il, I would be terrified to know that my victims are waiting for me in Hell.
This makes me think of a wickedly awesome Al Stewart song, Joe the Georgian, I think from the perspective of Trotsky, musing in an "ante-chamber to Hell" about what they'll do (all the men Stalin betrayed and killed) when Stalin gets there. The most brutally awesome part of the lyrics, I shall reproduce:

We all set off together
On this sorry ship of state
When the captain took the fever
We were hijacked by the mate
And he steered us through the shadows
Upon an angry tide
And cast us one by one over the side

But it's kind of hot and smoky
In this ante-room to Hell
And I won't make up a story
'Cause you know the truth so well
It's much too late to worry
That we never had a chance
And when Joe the Georgian gets here
We will dance, dance dance
When Joe the Georgian gets here
We will dance

There's Kamenev, Zinoviev,
Bukharin and the rest
We're sharpening our pitchforks
And we're heating up the ends
We've got a few surprises
For the mate when he appears
I hope he likes the next few million years




Very nice to see the Turner Joy back in action. I suppose, Stuart, that the Warrant officer ranks are being reestablished for people in unusual positions, i.e., with useful talent but without extensive military training? Or would be we go back to the 19th century custom of handing out commissions to people with college educations?
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Ten Up

Post by Jim Starluck »

Junghalli wrote:Heh, I wonder what would happen if you took one of those "dead gates" and just rolled a big rock in front of it, basically making a more primitive version of the iris in Stargate? Would the dead people get splattered as they came out? Would they be stuck in the void between dimensions or whatever realm souls pass through on their way to Heaven and Hell? Would they just get shunted to a different portal? Depending on how it works it might be a highly effective way of bumping off souls.
What I'd like to know is what would happen if you tried to send something back through it in the other direction. Where would it come out?
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Ten Up

Post by Junghalli »

Jim Starluck wrote:What I'd like to know is what would happen if you tried to send something back through it in the other direction. Where would it come out?
It was mentioned that the Demons once tried sending a few of their own people through the Minos Gate to see what was on the other side and they were never heard from again.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Ten Up

Post by barricade »

Junghalli wrote:
Jim Starluck wrote:What I'd like to know is what would happen if you tried to send something back through it in the other direction. Where would it come out?
It was mentioned that the Demons once tried sending a few of their own people through the Minos Gate to see what was on the other side and they were never heard from again.
Which is why you send a UAV/UGV through with a camera.

As for Michael's little thing with the drugs, perhaps he's thinking like a good drug tzar and starting off his clientele with 'the good stuff', and then as they're addicted, slowly change it to the street-corner crap that gives a lesser high/low but with even a worse crash afterwards, so they're always wanting more. Meanwhile for his 'trusted' group, he gives out the better quality stuff for a job well done. The truly 'good shit' he keeps for himself, Big J, and perhaps his most inner circle, if he has such a thing. That or it gets mixed in occasionally with the incense around Yah-Yah's throne (loved that crack) to get the big Idiot Before All just high enough to lower inhibitions a little and be more likely to be persuaded by something Michael is saying to him.

EDIT:
I've actually been on board the Turner Joy over at the Bremerton Shipyards. That ship is kept in quite literally in "gimme a week and she'll put to sea" conditions by her maintenance staff/caretakers. I know with a very high degree of certainty, that certain engineers & mechanics over at the actual shipyards/mothball yards over the years have ever so quietly 'donated' parts, that seemed to have fallen off a truck, to her upkeep on occasion.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Ten Up

Post by GrayAnderson »

Quick catch-up thoughts now that I'm reading the story:
1) The treatment of McCain's loss makes a great deal of sense. I can buy that under the circumstances, and I think it reflects the thread we had earlier well. Good, fair call.
2) The space thing is goofy now. Basically, all you need is a one-way trip to be arranged for Mars, etc. The rocket just has to get there, and to Hell (literally) with coming back.
2a) You don't even really have to do more than get the person there in orbit alive. I could see some good "stargate" plans where you send a ship into orbit, and then open a pair of linking portals close to eachother in Hell (probably in a large vacuum chamber), but with one opening in a low Earth Orbit and one in a low Mars orbit. You'd only need to pull this once or twice, and you could handle the Earth-to-Mars' surface trip with an old Apollo capsule. More to the point, even if the trip somehow kills you...well, I'm sure a deal can be worked out to ensure that you get a good setup in Hell.
3) I've got to say...the Michael-and-Yahweh bits are always hilarious.
4) The bio-warfare stuff is ingenious in its own way. As a bit of an odd question, though, wouldn't old viruses/diseases be harder to smack than new versions (having been "out of the mix" for so long)?
5) Michael's endgame has me wondering. I know he's the "get out with his position intact" type from what I can tell. Him being the "Heavenly" version of Abigor seems unlikely, so I am trying to peg him down on this.
6) Who was that singing in Michael's club, and has he been pulling humans into Heaven on personal pull?

All in all very good.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Ten Up

Post by EdBecerra »

GrayAnderson wrote:You'd only need to pull this once or twice, and you could handle the Earth-to-Mars' surface trip with an old Apollo capsule. More to the point, even if the trip somehow kills you...well, I'm sure a deal can be worked out to ensure that you get a good setup in Hell.
Well, crap! I just realized... Chaffee, White and Grissom are down there!

And we could finally get the truth about Ledovsky, Belokoniov, Zavadovsky and the others!

Wow...

Ed.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Ten Up

Post by Stuart »

Simon_Jester wrote:Is Gabriel talking through his hat, or is there a difference between the dead-in-Heaven and the dead-in-Hell that lets the dead-in-Heaven survive on Earth?
No difference; the dead can survive on Earth but only for a limited period (circa six to eight hours before they either die or go back to Hell)
It's at least implied Michael snuck in some singers from relatively recent times to staff his club, isn't it?
The ones explicitly stated are Artie Shaw (with Billie Holiday as his singer - historically Lady Day did sing with Artie Shaw for a short period but they had to break the partnership up due to threats made against her by racists who didn't like the idea of a black woman singing with a white band) and Glen Miller. There are some more to come.

The Montmartre Club is a great place for swing-era big bands. By the way, the place is named after Al Capone's headquarters
Ed Becerra wrote:Something's seriously wrong here... In the first bit, they seem to imply they're giving him the best synthetics they can make. In the second, the phrase "street-corner pharmaceuticals" implies the sort of third-rate, adulterated crap you buy from that pusher down the block. So which is true?
Both. The reference to Street Corner Pharmaceuticals is a reference to destination rather than present quality; it doesn't necessarily imply poor quality from the get-go. Remember the adulterated crap mostly started life as reasonably pure product and got stepped on as it went down the chain. MarshalPurnell got id dead right.
Junghalli wrote:I'm actually hoping that the first bowl of wrath does accomplish something other than simply mildly inconveniencing us, because otherwise it makes the Angels look incompetent. They should know very well that we control Hell, and it's elementary logic from there that just sending people to Hell won't put them out of commission. Why bother with an attack that will be almost totally useless? I have a couple of theories on what might be happening, but my favored one is that they're diverting the souls of those people when they die and simply killing them a second time when they come out of Heaven's equivalent of the Minos Gate.
The effects of the first bowl are a lot worse than just seriously inconveniencing humans. What Michael is doing is methodically cutting off all of the routes by which Earth can reach Heaven so that his powerbase is isolated from attack by Earth-based forces. As a result, he's got the initiative and has humans on the back foot. Now, when the earth-based Nephilim die from anthrax, they go to hell, sure, but they are stuck there. They can't survive on Earth for more than a few hours, much less if they use their link powers and they can't drive a portal from Hell to Heaven without another Nephilim or their equivalent the other side. They're in hell sure and they can be used to improve the linking between Earth and Hell but as far as links between Earth and Heaven are concerned, they are out of the game. And that is a serious blow.

Daemons and angels don't go to Heaven or Hell when they die. They go somewhere else, presumably the next level up in the great chain of existance. The logic behind Hell was that daemons need the energy boost from suffering humanity to get there although it's appearing more and more likely this was just doctrinal bullshit from Satan to justify his creation of Hell.

The question of sending somebody through the deadgate comes up fairly shortly.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Ten Up

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

So what's the point of making humans suffer or worship in Heaven and Hell? Is there any rationale to it at all?

(And, really, thanks Stuart for directly answering my questions on Angel physiology by putting it in an actual-factual chapter in your book.)

As for creative criticism, I'm gonna have to pipe in this one:
"Sure. It's a Red Algal Bloom, it used to be called a Red Tide although the name's dropped out of fashion since its nothing to do with the tide and the color can be anything from light yellow to deep brown. I've never seen one this large before though. When I was on the old Seattle out of Naval Weapons Station Earle in New Jersey, we saw this all the time off New York. Everything was right for an algal bloom there, lots of nutrients in the water caused by runoff from the city and a coastal upwelling, that's where Deepwater oceanic currents underwater formations that push them to the surface. The result is the algae grow out of control and we get this. But there, the patches are perhaps a hundred yards long and about twenty wide. We've been sailing through this one for ten minutes and there's no end to it."
I find it hard to imagine that people can give off entire lectures on Algal Bloom, or other topics, on the fly. I can get that guys like Doctors and Professors Kuroneko and Surlethe can go off like this, but laymen and officers and captains might not be able to do so casually. Sometimes it's better to have a character mention a useful bit of the information before filling the rest of the stuff in (for the audience's sake) via the narration or stuff, rather than the dialogue.

But it's really minor.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Ten Up

Post by Stuart »

Shroom Man 777 wrote:So what's the point of making humans suffer or worship in Heaven and Hell? Is there any rationale to it at all?
The rationale (ie the excuse offered by the powers that be) is that it boosts their followers up and over the barrier to the "ext level of existance". Now, this is very convenient because it suggests that said leaders actually enable their minions to enter the afterlife - which, you must admit, is a pretty good way of ensuring loyalty. Now, of course, it could be argued that the whole "energy" thing is a load of rancid dingo's kidneys and the fact is that Satan was a psychotic sadist who enjoyed torturing people while Yahweh was a monumentally narcissitic individual who simply wanted everybody to worship him. And their followers went to the next life anyway. Wouldn't be the first time somebody created a religion purely for their own personal benefit (yes, LRH, I'm looking at you).
As for creative criticism, I'm gonna have to pipe in this one:
"Sure. It's a Red Algal Bloom, it used to be called a Red Tide although the name's dropped out of fashion since its nothing to do with the tide and the color can be anything from light yellow to deep brown. I've never seen one this large before though. When I was on the old Seattle out of Naval Weapons Station Earle in New Jersey, we saw this all the time off New York. Everything was right for an algal bloom there, lots of nutrients in the water caused by runoff from the city and a coastal upwelling, that's where Deepwater oceanic currents underwater formations that push them to the surface. The result is the algae grow out of control and we get this. But there, the patches are perhaps a hundred yards long and about twenty wide. We've been sailing through this one for ten minutes and there's no end to it."
I find it hard to imagine that people can give off entire lectures on Algal Bloom, or other topics, on the fly. I can get that guys like Doctors and Professors Kuroneko and Surlethe can go off like this, but laymen and officers and captains might not be able to do so casually. Sometimes it's better to have a character mention a useful bit of the information before filling the rest of the stuff in (for the audience's sake) via the narration or stuff, rather than the dialogue.
You'd be surprised. I was on the bridge of the USS Seattle, (she was an AOR, a fast underway replenishment ship) heading out of NWS Earle when we started running through these patches of bright red water. It was really weird to see, the water was turning brilliant red in clearly-defined patches about the size described. I asked "What the hell are those" and got the quick briefing on Algal Bloom related above. Naval officers tend to have pretty detailed knowledge of a lot of surprising things and love showing off the fact to any Contractors on board their ships. Especially about the 'realities' of life at sea. A classic example of the latter was a frigate we were on once. The Captain took great delight in giving us a long lecture on how the ship hadn't been designed by people who had ever been to sea and crew messing had no relationship to combat stations. So, when the ship went to action stations, 140 men forward were going aft and 140 men aft were going forward and they all had to pass through a single watertight hatch. The result was a rugby scrum by said hatch and an unmanned ship (just to add to the fun, she was a stealth ship so nobody could go above deck in anything nore than a flat millpond).
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Ten Up

Post by Surlethe »

Stuart wrote:Now, this is very convenient because it suggests that said leaders actually enable their minions to enter the afterlife - which, you must admit, is a pretty good way of ensuring loyalty.
So, basically, the Catholic Church's business model is based on the best?
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Ten Up

Post by Stuart »

Surlethe wrote: So, basically, the Catholic Church's business model is based on the best?
I'd have said based on the mafia myself. But, sure, organized religion is basically a protection racket. Pay up or you get screwed over.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Ten Up

Post by Jamesfirecat »

Since you seeem to be handing out answers left and right at the moemnt Stuart, are we going to find out how exactly the Angel's managed to dump the second bowl without us finding out about it?

Also while the Neph who die from the first plauge can't open a portal to heaven from Earth, couldn't they do it from Hell assuming they had someone working on the other side? Also isn't the situation of opening portals no better as far as the uninfected Neph are concerned? It's not like we can just force a portal to open from Earth to Heaven without their approval, is it?

In fact woudln't it be easier to open a portal to Heaven from Hell (once we get someone on the ohter side helping you) since they're on the same "energy wavelenght" or whatever the expression is, so you don't have to swim against the tide as opposed to how you would when you were on Earth?

Oh and another thing, couldn't human's replace their lost Neph on Earth with some nagas? Nagas can survive on Earth just fine unlike the dead Neph, and from most of what we've seen I've gotten the idea that they're probably a bit more powerful than Neph are, now of course they'd have to be watched and taken care of, but still couldn't we conscript some nagas to refil our ranks of lost portal openers?
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Ten Up

Post by Ilya Muromets »

Stuart wrote:
Surlethe wrote: So, basically, the Catholic Church's business model is based on the best?
I'd have said based on the mafia myself. But, sure, organized religion is basically a protection racket. Pay up or you get screwed over.
You mind if I use that quote somewhere, sometime? It is a great quote. :D
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Stuart
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Ten Up

Post by Stuart »

Jamesfirecat wrote:Since you seeem to be handing out answers left and right at the moemnt Stuart, are we going to find out how exactly the Angel's managed to dump the second bowl without us finding out about it?
Some possible answers will be forthcoming shortly
Also while the Neph who die from the first plauge can't open a portal to heaven from Earth, couldn't they do it from Hell assuming they had someone working on the other side? In fact woudln't it be easier to open a portal to Heaven from Hell (given someone on the ohter side helping you) since they're on the same "energy wavelenght" or whatever the expression is, so you don't have to swim against the tide as opposed to how you would when you were on Earth?
Think about swimming across a very strong current. It's very easy to swim with the current, very hard to swim against it - but its almost impossible to swim across it. No matter how strong a swimmer one is, the force of the current will displace one downstream to some extent. The only way to swim directly across a strong current is to have spotters on either side and use a guide-rope stretched between them. Technically one could do it by working out what the downstream displacement due to the current will be, then swimming at an upstream angle to compensate for it but that requires a fairly precise mathematical knowledge of the river and its currents. Hence the importance of mathematics in trying to understand the "new physics" of Hell.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Ten Up

Post by Stuart »

Ilya Muromets wrote:You mind if I use that quote somewhere, sometime? It is a great quote. :D
Sure, go ahead. :angelic:
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Ten Up

Post by Jamesfirecat »

Think about swimming across a very strong current. It's very easy to swim with the current, very hard to swim against it - but its almost impossible to swim across it. No matter how strong a swimmer one is, the force of the current will displace one downstream to some extent. The only way to swim directly across a strong current is to have spotters on either side and use a guide-rope stretched between them. Technically one could do it by working out what the downstream displacement due to the current will be, then swimming at an upstream angle to compensate for it but that requires a fairly precise mathematical knowledge of the river and its currents. Hence the importance of mathematics in trying to understand the "new physics" of Hell.

Ahh got it, I guess the fact that Hell had posessed a portal to Heaven for so long made me think that it would be easier out of complacency, though I reitate my point about how couldn't we replace some/all of the Neph we lost with Naga doing their work from Earth, they'd have to be carefully monitored when they're working of course, but then those portal openers have always been carefully monitored...
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