Cheater sues when school bans her from graduation ceremony

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Re: Cheater sues when school bans her from graduation ceremony

Post by Axis Kast »

Dude, twelve months is not a lengthy period of time.
According to whom? You?

Plenty of kids spend that much time farting around Europe... an experience that usually stands them in good stead later in life, and can be leveraged when applying to universities, which may consider the trip germane.

Another set spend additional time in university "finding themselves," or are led astray by academic advisers. In the first instance, they are paying for the privilege of not yet knowing their own mind, sometimes dearly. In the second, they are paying for somebody else's mistakes. Neither of these is a positive outcome.
In this post, we learn that Axis Kast places zero value on honesty. Why am I not surprised?
Are you seriously defective? Please do explain to everyone why repeating her senior year, already completed to satisfaction, is any different than sending her to learn honesty at a shit-packing plant. In fact, if the shit-packing plant involves learning skills she did not have before, it's obviously a better use of her time than retaking her old courses.
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Re: Cheater sues when school bans her from graduation ceremony

Post by Lusankya »

Axis Kast wrote:
Dude, twelve months is not a lengthy period of time.
According to whom? You?
How old are you? Six? Are you still counting sleeps until Father Christmas arrives and finding it difficult because you don't have enough fingers? A year is not a long time. If she takes a year repeating year 12 because she got caught cheating, nobody will care that she's one year older in university, and no employers will care when she gets out of university.
Plenty of kids spend that much time farting around Europe... an experience that usually stands them in good stead later in life, and can be leveraged when applying to universities, which may consider the trip germane.
The idea of universities accepting you based on farting around Europe seems ridiculous to someone who comes from a country where your university entrance is based purely on your exam results. (I.e. your argument is like a sieve: it holds no water.)
Another set spend additional time in university "finding themselves," or are led astray by academic advisers. In the first instance, they are paying for the privilege of not yet knowing their own mind, sometimes dearly. In the second, they are paying for somebody else's mistakes. Neither of these is a positive outcome.
... And yet it's still not a long time now, is it?
Are you seriously defective? Please do explain to everyone why repeating her senior year, already completed to satisfaction, is any different than sending her to learn honesty at a shit-packing plant. In fact, if the shit-packing plant involves learning skills she did not have before, it's obviously a better use of her time than retaking her old courses.
She not only needs to learn the value of honesty, but she needs to prove to everybody that she has learnt it as well, since she proved that she doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt. She can't earn anyone's trust working at a shit-packing plant - at least, not when it comes to academic areas.
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Re: Cheater sues when school bans her from graduation ceremony

Post by Kanastrous »

Havok wrote:
And sorry, but just because someone has an attitude problem does not make her an automatically untrustworthy person that is going to cheat at every opportunity she gets if she doesn't get her way.
In fact, I think you're basically correct.

And yet, as someone who does a bit of hiring, I'd sure be disinclined to bring her on to any team for which I was responsible, not so much for the cheating as the way she chose to handle the consequences. With plenty of qualified people out there who don't have this kind of albatross for a necklace, why roll the dice on her?

Of course, if she was somehow the only possible hire for the job, that would be different. But I'd have an eye peeled for a replacement, from the day she starts.
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Re: Cheater sues when school bans her from graduation ceremony

Post by Axis Kast »

How old are you? Six? Are you still counting sleeps until Father Christmas arrives and finding it difficult because you don't have enough fingers? A year is not a long time.
What planet are you from? Are things free on your world?

Three-hundred and sixty-five days of almost completely meaningless sacrifice. At the end of that term, this girl will have done almost nothing to burnish her practical skill sets. That's what repetition of an entire academic year, already completed satisfactorily, amounts to.
If she takes a year repeating year 12 because she got caught cheating, nobody will care that she's one year older in university, and no employers will care when she gets out of university.
Very good. Except this discussion is not about age. It is about opportunity costs.
The idea of universities accepting you based on farting around Europe seems ridiculous to someone who comes from a country where your university entrance is based purely on your exam results. (I.e. your argument is like a sieve: it holds no water.)
I'll be sure to let universities know your stance on the issue. Seriously, are you going to address reality, or did you just want to engage in some wishful thinking? In the United States, colleges and employers may look favorably on individuals who have spent several continuous months in a foreign country, particularly if they have developed language skills during that time.
... And yet it's still not a long time now, is it?
Once again, with the emphasis on duration. The problem isn't that she's going to have too few days in her life - it's that, optimally, they will all be well-spent. You have to have a better argument than, "Well, it's not a long time,, so why are you complaining?"
She not only needs to learn the value of honesty, but she needs to prove to everybody that she has learnt it as well, since she proved that she doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt. She can't earn anyone's trust working at a shit-packing plant - at least, not when it comes to academic areas.
Obviously, the correct thing to do would have been to resit the exam. That course of action proves that she can swallow the bitter pill of owning up to her mistakes, and perform competently even without unfair advantage. Retaking a year of courses already completed to satisfaction? Going through motions proves honesty? Achieving passing marks on assignments with which one is already familiar - this is a new challenge? How do you even know that a future employer or university will look at a repeated year and think, "This was a courageous stab at self-improvement"? Because she's going to tell them that? Frankly, my reply would be, "You could have done better things with your time. Now, why didn't you retake the exam when you had a chance?"

Retaking a whole set of courses which she has already completed, on the other hand, will do little to impress anyone.
With plenty of qualified people out there who don't have this kind of albatross for a necklace, why roll the dice on her?
It's an albatross she'll never get rid of. And that's exactly why I feel that there needn't be elaborate punishments. She may be paying for this mistake for much of the next ten years.
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Re: Cheater sues when school bans her from graduation ceremony

Post by Memnon »

I just want to interject very quickly - graduation ceremonies can be very important for the family and friends.
Just yesterday I was playing at a graduation, and I stayed afterwards to send off my senior friends.
Overall, it was definitely something I wouldn't want to miss, even though it was boring at times.

That doesn't mean that I support letting that girl graduate with all of her friends;
indeed, it makes me agree more with the people who think negatively of this person.
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Re: Cheater sues when school bans her from graduation ceremony

Post by J »

aerius wrote:Because why should a college admit someone who's just going to cheat again and get kicked out before finishing her degree, and in doing so it bumps out a potential student who'd make it all the way through the program and contribute to society in a positive way?
I'd like to emphasize this point. Axis, you speak of costs & losts opportunities for the cheater, what about the lost opportunities of the person who was bumped off the university's admission roles so that a known cheater could "realize her life"? Why are you punishing an innocent person for the actions of a cheater?
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Re: Cheater sues when school bans her from graduation ceremony

Post by Axis Kast »

That doesn't mean that I support letting that girl graduate with all of her friends;
I have no problem with her exclusion. However, I am inclined to think less negatively of her personal upset over it because I regard graduation as an exceptionally significant community event.
I'd like to emphasize this point. Axis, you speak of costs & losts opportunities for the cheater, what about the lost opportunities of the person who was bumped off the university's admission roles so that a known cheater could "realize her life"? Why are you punishing an innocent person for the actions of a cheater?
The university will make a determination about the sum total of somebody's achievements. I'm advocating that the girl not be made to endure useless punishments, not that she definitely receive placement with a particular college or firm. If nobody will accept her, that's certainly her cross to bear. I just don't see that repeating a year of work is going to make her a better person.
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Re: Cheater sues when school bans her from graduation ceremony

Post by aerius »

Axis Kast wrote:Are you seriously defective? Please do explain to everyone why repeating her senior year, already completed to satisfaction, is any different than sending her to learn honesty at a shit-packing plant. In fact, if the shit-packing plant involves learning skills she did not have before, it's obviously a better use of her time than retaking her old courses.
Completed to whose satisfaction, yours? A school with overly lenient brain-dead standards? For all we know she cheated on every single course in her last year and only got caught for one of them. How do you know she didn't do that? How do you know she didn't cheat in every last one of her classes? The fact that she was willing to pull off such a brazen act of cheating proves she has the mentality to cheat at everything, so it's now her job to prove that otherwise. She can do that by redoing a year.

By the way I just emptied your bank account for fun, would you like me to hold on to your credit cards for a week? I promise I won't charge anything on them.
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Re: Cheater sues when school bans her from graduation ceremony

Post by Axis Kast »


Completed to whose satisfaction, yours? A school with overly lenient brain-dead standards? For all we know she cheated on every single course in her last year and only got caught for one of them. How do you know she didn't do that? How do you know she didn't cheat in every last one of her classes?
I don't. But, of course, it is your job to defend the arbitrariness of your determination, not mine. You raise a good question: why have her repeat only a year? Why not demand that she repeat the last four?
The fact that she was willing to pull off such a brazen act of cheating proves she has the mentality to cheat at everything, so it's now her job to prove that otherwise. She can do that by redoing a year.
That's absolutely correct. However, there isn't much to gain by presenting her with a "challenge" that isn't actually a challenge at all: she knows what's coming; she's shown, at first glance, an apparant capacity to do all of that work before; and she isn't going to be improving herself intellectually. Ergo, your plan is shit.
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Re: Cheater sues when school bans her from graduation ceremony

Post by aerius »

And your plan is? Oh, that's right, you don't have one.
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Re: Cheater sues when school bans her from graduation ceremony

Post by Axis Kast »

And your plan is? Oh, that's right, you don't have one.
Since when has anyone had to have an alternative to call your approach boneheaded and short-sighted? Oh, that's right. Never.

My position throughout has been that the school took correct action. It is very unlikely that this young woman will find placement at a college for the upcoming academic year. She may be obliged to spend time at a community or junior college rather than a "name" school. And that is her row to hoe.
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