Obama DOJ files motion defending DoMA

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Obama DOJ files motion defending DoMA

Post by Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba »

(06-12) 09:42 PDT Los Angeles, CA (AP) --

The U.S. Justice Department has moved to dismiss the first gay marriage case filed in federal court, saying it is not the right venue to tackle legal questions raised by a couple already married in California.
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The motion, filed late Thursday, argued the case of Arthur Smelt and Christopher Hammer does not address the right of gay couples to marry but rather questions whether their marriage must be recognized nationwide by states that have not approved gay marriage.

"This case does not call upon the Court to pass judgment ... on the legal or moral right of same-sex couples, such as plaintiffs here, to be married," the motion states. "Plaintiffs are married, and their challenge to the federal Defense of Marriage Act ("DOMA") poses a different set of questions."

It's a different case from a recent federal lawsuit by two unmarried gay couples in California who claim a civil right to marry under the U.S. Constitution.

The government said Smelt and Hammer seek a ruling on "whether by virtue of their marital status they are constitutionally entitled to acknowledgment of their union by states that do not recognize same-sex marriage, and whether they are similarly entitled to certain federal benefits.

"Under the law binding on this Court, the answer to these questions must be no," the motion states.

The 54-page document traces the history of the federal Defense of Marriage Act passed by Congress in 1996 at a time when states and their citizens were just beginning to address the legal status of same-sex marriage.

"DOMA does not address whether a same-sex couple may marry within the United States," the motion says. "Instead, it permits the citizens of each state to decide that question for themselves."

Justice spokeswoman Tracy Schmaler said Friday that the department, as it generally does, is defending existing law in court.

"The president has said he wants to see a legislative repeal of the Defense of Marriage Act because it prevents LGBT (lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender) couples from being granted equal rights and benefits," she said. "However, until Congress passes legislation repealing the law, the administration will continue to defend the statute when it is challenged in the justice system."

The case was originally filed last year in California state court before heading to federal court. It claims violation of a number of federal rights including the right to privacy, the right to travel and the right of free expression under the First Amendment.

The government's filing said the suit would fail under each of those grounds. While it addressed each argument, it claimed the suit should be dismissed for lack of standing by the plaintiffs to bring the claim in federal court.

In a separate filing, the California attorney general moved Thursday to dismiss the state lawsuit by the same couple, saying Hammer and Smelt lack standing to sue because their marriage was unaffected in any way by the passage of Proposition 8, the voter-approved gay marriage ban.

The attorney general's motion noted there are likely to be more federal suits and referred to "at least one highly publicized challenge (that) has already been filed."

That case, Perry v. Schwarzenegger, drew wide attention because it was filed by David Boies and Theodore Olson, the two lawyers who opposed each other in the famed election challenge in Bush v. Gore in 2000. The suit raises different issues seeking to frame gay marriage as a federal civil right.

"Our lawsuit squarely presents the federal constitutional challenges to Proposition 8's marriage ban, which are not presented in the Smelt case because those plaintiffs are already married. We believe our arguments are exceedingly strong," Theodore Boutrous Jr., a member of the legal team in that case, said Thursday night.

On May 26, the California Supreme Court upheld Proposition 8.

In a 6-1 decision written by Chief Justice Ron George, the court rejected arguments that the ban approved by the voters last fall was such a fundamental change in the California Constitution that it first needed the Legislature's approval.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... .DTL&tsp=1

And here's the full brief: http://www.scribd.com/doc/16355867/Obam ... riage-case

And here's some great quotes from the brief:


"As a result, gay and lesbian individuals who unite in matrimony are denied no federal benefits to which they were entitled prior to their marriage; they remain eligible for every benefit they enjoyed beforehand. DOMA simply provides, in effect, that as a result of their same-sex marriage they will not become eligible for the set of benefits that Congress has reserved exclusively to those who are related by the bonds of heterosexual marriage."

"The constitutional propriety of Congress's decision to decline to extend federal benefits immediately to newly recognized types of marriages is bolstered by Congress's articulated interest in preserving the scarce resources of both the federal and State governments. DOMA ensures that evolving understandings of the institution of marriage at the State level do not place greater financial and administrative obligations on federal and state benefits programs...If [a State] were to permit homosexuals to marry, these marital benefits would, absent some legislative response, presumably have to be made available to homosexual couples and surviving spouses of homosexual marriages on the same terms as they are now available to opposite-sex married couples and spouses. To deny federal recognition to same-sex marriages will thus preserve scarce government resources, surely a legitimate government purpose."

" DOMA reflects a cautiously limited response to society's still-evolving understanding of the institution of marriage."

" Section 3 of DOMA reflects just such an approach: it maximizes democratic flexibility and self-governance under our federalist system, by adopting a policy of federal neutrality with respect to a matter that is primarily the concern of state government. Because all 50 States recognize heterosexual marriage, it was reasonable and rational for Congress to maintain its longstanding policy of fostering this traditional and universally-recognized form of marriage. At the same time, because Congress recognized both the freedom of States to expand the traditional definition, and the freedom of other States to decline to recognize this newer form of marriage, a policy of neutrality dictated that Congress not extend federal benefits to new forms of marriage recognized by some States. "

" In short, therefore, DOMA, understood for what it actually does, infringes on no one's rights, and in all events it infringes on no right that has been constitutionally protected as fundamental, so as to invite heightened scrutiny."

" Loving v. Virginia is not to the contrary. There the Supreme Court rejected a contention that the assertedly "equal application" of a statute prohibiting interracial marriage immunized the statute from strict scrutiny. 388 U.S. 1, 8, 87 S.Ct. 1817, 18 L.Ed.2d 1010 (1967). The Court had little difficulty concluding that the statute, which applied only to "interracial marriages involving white persons," was "designed to maintain White Supremacy" and therefore unconstitutional. Id. at 11. No comparable purpose is present here, however, for DOMA does not seek in any way to advance the "supremacy" of men over women, or of women over men. Thus DOMA cannot be "traced to a . . . purpose" to discriminate against either men or women. Personnel Adm'r v. Feeney, 442 U.S. 256, 272, 99 S. Ct. 2282, 60 L.Ed.2d 870 (1979). In upholding the traditional definition of marriage, numerous courts have expressly rejected an alleged analogy to Loving."

" Plaintiffs also maintain that DOMA discriminates on the basis of sexual orientation, in violation of their right to the equal protection of the law, see Complaint, ¶ 20, but DOMA is not subject to heightened scrutiny on that basis. As an initial matter, plaintiffs misperceive the nature of the line that Congress has drawn. DOMA does not discriminate against homosexuals in the provision of federal benefits. To the contrary, discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation is prohibited in federal employment and in a wide array of federal benefits programs by law, regulation, and Executive order.... Section 3 of DOMA does not distinguish among persons of different sexual orientations, but rather it limits federal benefits to those who have entered into the traditional form of marriage."

Many more great quotes here: http://www.americablog.com/2009/06/obam ... -doma.html
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Re: Obama DOJ files motion defending DoMA

Post by Pint0 Xtreme »

I've been giving Obama the benefit of doubt and probably will for awhile. But if he doesn't change his tune after a year or so, I'll take it as a sign that he won't mind if I don't vote for him in 2012.
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Re: Obama DOJ files motion defending DoMA

Post by Frank Hipper »

As a result, gay and lesbian individuals who unite in matrimony are denied no federal benefits to which they were entitled prior to their marriage; they remain eligible for every benefit they enjoyed beforehand.
Well, don't strain yourselves or anything. :x
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Re: Obama DOJ files motion defending DoMA

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Pint0 Xtreme wrote:I've been giving Obama the benefit of doubt and probably will for awhile. But if he doesn't change his tune after a year or so, I'll take it as a sign that he won't mind if I don't vote for him in 2012.
I won't deny that everyone should vote their conscience, but try to consider what the alternative is likely to be.
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Re: Obama DOJ files motion defending DoMA

Post by Pint0 Xtreme »

The Romulan Republic wrote:
Pint0 Xtreme wrote:I've been giving Obama the benefit of doubt and probably will for awhile. But if he doesn't change his tune after a year or so, I'll take it as a sign that he won't mind if I don't vote for him in 2012.
I won't deny that everyone should vote their conscience, but try to consider what the alternative is likely to be.
Just remember that not voting for Obama does not automatically mean that I'm voting for the Republican candidate. Unless my vote will make a difference in determining the election of a centrist like Obama or a nutjob like most prominent Republicans, then I'll probably refrain from making a vote (or vote third party). And seeing that I live in a state (California) that will almost assuredly vote Democrat, I can see myself doing just that if Obama doesn't shift gears. That's just simply the price he will have to live with for alienating the LGBT community, which have been an ardent supporter of the Democratic party. Of course, the problem with this alienation is probably a little more severe in swing states that he will need to win in 2012. Assuming he continues to neglect his LGBT constituency, he'd better hope for a scary ass Republican candidate to garner those votes.
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Re: Obama DOJ files motion defending DoMA

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"The constitutional propriety of Congress's decision to decline to extend federal benefits immediately to newly recognized types of marriages is bolstered by Congress's articulated interest in preserving the scarce resources of both the federal and State governments. DOMA ensures that evolving understandings of the institution of marriage at the State level do not place greater financial and administrative obligations on federal and state benefits programs...If [a State] were to permit homosexuals to marry, these marital benefits would, absent some legislative response, presumably have to be made available to homosexual couples and surviving spouses of homosexual marriages on the same terms as they are now available to opposite-sex married couples and spouses. To deny federal recognition to same-sex marriages will thus preserve scarce government resources, surely a legitimate government purpose."
Fucking over poor people is now a legitamate government purpose! Maybe we can deprive so of the populance of citizenship in order to insure that there is enough resouces for more worthy reciprecants.
" DOMA reflects a cautiously limited response to society's still-evolving understanding of the institution of marriage."
:roll:
" Section 3 of DOMA reflects just such an approach: it maximizes democratic flexibility and self-governance under our federalist system, by adopting a policy of federal neutrality with respect to a matter that is primarily the concern of state government. Because all 50 States recognize heterosexual marriage, it was reasonable and rational for Congress to maintain its longstanding policy of fostering this traditional and universally-recognized form of marriage. At the same time, because Congress recognized both the freedom of States to expand the traditional definition, and the freedom of other States to decline to recognize this newer form of marriage, a policy of neutrality dictated that Congress not extend federal benefits to new forms of marriage recognized by some States. "
Even though this is a blatant violation of the constituion of the United States and the government is required to uphold the constitution, but hey- it only applies when you want it to.
" In short, therefore, DOMA, understood for what it actually does, infringes on no one's rights, and in all events it infringes on no right that has been constitutionally protected as fundamental, so as to invite heightened scrutiny."
Eisenhower is looking more liberal by the minute. And that is just sad. This infringes upon people's rights because it announces the government won't fight to protect them.
No comparable purpose is present here, however, for DOMA does not seek in any way to advance the "supremacy" of men over women, or of women over men. Thus DOMA cannot be "traced to a . . . purpose" to discriminate against either men or women. Personnel Adm'r v. Feeney, 442 U.S. 256, 272, 99 S. Ct. 2282, 60 L.Ed.2d 870 (1979). In upholding the traditional definition of marriage, numerous courts have expressly rejected an alleged analogy to Loving."
I didn't realize that lawyers could be so retarded. It is called sexual orientation.
Section 3 of DOMA does not distinguish among persons of different sexual orientations, but rather it limits federal benefits to those who have entered into the traditional form of marriage."
Even though those who are not of a heterosexual orientation will not be using said tradition forms by definition.

Conclusion- screw you Obama. I might not vote for the Republicans, but this bullshit is a good enough reason not to vote for you. Course since I'm in Caifornia I probably will also speak out against him in college as well.
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Re: Obama DOJ files motion defending DoMA

Post by Veramocor »

If you are for gay marriage Obama is being smart. If DOMA gets to the Supreme Court now it will likely not get over turned, 5-4. Then in addition to a law being against gay marriage you will also have a precedent setting Supreme Court case. Then you have to wait even longer for precedent to be overturned (see segregation).

Instead over 5 (?) states have made it legal. New York will come soon. California while just recently banning the practice was very close. The demographics favor the eventual acceptance by a majority of people for gay marriage. While the pro gay marriage position is right, slow but steady wins the day. Each state that legalizes it and doesn't self destruct shows people that there is no problem with it.
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Re: Obama DOJ files motion defending DoMA

Post by Kanastrous »

Seems to me Veramocor is probably right. Let some more centrist-liberal judges get appointed, and put the matter before that court.
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Re: Obama DOJ files motion defending DoMA

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Veramocor wrote:If you are for gay marriage Obama is being smart. If DOMA gets to the Supreme Court now it will likely not get over turned, 5-4. Then in addition to a law being against gay marriage you will also have a precedent setting Supreme Court case. Then you have to wait even longer for precedent to be overturned (see segregation).

Instead over 5 (?) states have made it legal. New York will come soon. California while just recently banning the practice was very close. The demographics favor the eventual acceptance by a majority of people for gay marriage. While the pro gay marriage position is right, slow but steady wins the day. Each state that legalizes it and doesn't self destruct shows people that there is no problem with it.
I'd love for you to explain how it could go to the Supreme Court. You need to show that you are a plaintiff before you can sue- which requires showing harm. How on earth could you do that with gay marriage?

Right now we have a blatant violation of the Consititution- the full faith and credit clasue. The president is sworn to uphold the consitution of the United States. While I am not insisiting that the constition is the be all and end all, it IS our governing document and to ignore it for political gain caused by harming people... well, that is what people pointed out Bush was doing.
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Re: Obama DOJ files motion defending DoMA

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Samuel wrote:Right now we have a blatant violation of the Consititution- the full faith and credit clasue. The president is sworn to uphold the consitution of the United States. While I am not insisiting that the constition is the be all and end all, it IS our governing document and to ignore it for political gain caused by harming people... well, that is what people pointed out Bush was doing.
It's more complicated than that. Congress has the power to define how the FFCC is applied and enforced; that's the power on which the DoMA is based. There's an argument that DoMA oversteps that power, with which I happen to agree, but it's not as straightforward as people seem to assume.
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Re: Obama DOJ files motion defending DoMA

Post by Samuel »

RedImperator wrote:
Samuel wrote:Right now we have a blatant violation of the Consititution- the full faith and credit clasue. The president is sworn to uphold the consitution of the United States. While I am not insisiting that the constition is the be all and end all, it IS our governing document and to ignore it for political gain caused by harming people... well, that is what people pointed out Bush was doing.
It's more complicated than that. Congress has the power to define how the FFCC is applied and enforced; that's the power on which the DoMA is based. There's an argument that DoMA oversteps that power, with which I happen to agree, but it's not as straightforward as people seem to assume.
Florida Federation of Colorguards Circuit is responsible? I'll be honest- I don't know the acronym. I am read up more on the constition than the bodies empowered and created by it.
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Re: Obama DOJ files motion defending DoMA

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Samuel wrote:
RedImperator wrote:
Samuel wrote:Right now we have a blatant violation of the Consititution- the full faith and credit clasue. The president is sworn to uphold the consitution of the United States. While I am not insisiting that the constition is the be all and end all, it IS our governing document and to ignore it for political gain caused by harming people... well, that is what people pointed out Bush was doing.
It's more complicated than that. Congress has the power to define how the FFCC is applied and enforced; that's the power on which the DoMA is based. There's an argument that DoMA oversteps that power, with which I happen to agree, but it's not as straightforward as people seem to assume.
Florida Federation of Colorguards Circuit is responsible? I'll be honest- I don't know the acronym. I am read up more on the constition than the bodies empowered and created by it.
You said it yourself...FFCC = Full Faith and Credit Clause
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Re: Obama DOJ files motion defending DoMA

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Basically the present interpretation is that while one state is obliged to give - evidentiary? - weight to the recorded legal proceedings and rulings of another state there is no obligation to enforce those rulings.

Is that an accurate summary of how the Full Faith and Credit Clause is currently applied?
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Re: Obama DOJ files motion defending DoMA

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Samuel wrote:Right now we have a blatant violation of the Consititution- the full faith and credit clasue. The president is sworn to uphold the consitution of the United States. While I am not insisiting that the constition is the be all and end all, it IS our governing document and to ignore it for political gain caused by harming people... well, that is what people pointed out Bush was doing.
Aside from the point Red already raised there is a secondary seperation of powers issue that sits into some of the dicey stuff that surrounded the Califronia AG arguing against Prop8. Anyway the point is that the constiutionally designed role of the Executive branch is to ENFORCE the law, it is the job of the Judicial branch (the courts) to INTERPRET the law.

The Courts are free to dsicover the breach of Equal Protection inherent in DOMA (as well as the potential overstepping of Full Faith and Credit which would make it an enumerated powers issue) but the Executive branch, general (and there are layers here) is not. While I think the rather full-throated defense of DOMA is excessive and something that really does raise my hackles I have no issue with the core point. Much like a defense lawyer with an obviously guilty client the Obama DOJ still has an ethical obligation to defend the existing law on the books.

Much as the courts themselves on the tricky issue of application of the 2nd amendment to state restrictions are bound by precedent which only a superior court can overturn (within the realm of Stare decisis) the Obama DOJ (and any DOJ for that matter regardeless of who is President) is bound by the laws on the books not the laws they wish were on the books.
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Re: Obama DOJ files motion defending DoMA

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Pint0 Xtreme wrote:I've been giving Obama the benefit of doubt and probably will for awhile. But if he doesn't change his tune after a year or so, I'll take it as a sign that he won't mind if I don't vote for him in 2012.
He's keeping the issue away from the federal government for now. There are two reasons for this, both of which I happen to agree with:

1. It's a wedge issue, and Obama's got bigger fish to fry -- he doesn't want to burn through political capitol on this when we've got two wars and a sucky economy and global warming and oil problems and a crumbling and/or antiquated infrastructure and increasing right-wing radicalism and whatever problem happens to come up next month.

2. We're winning state-by-state and in the public opinion. Old people are dying off and young people are replacing them. Popular culture gets more accepting of gay rights all the time, and so does the public at large. Opinion polls have shown steadily increasing support for gay rights. A few states have allowed gay marriage by a legislative vote. We're creeping forward, and in ten years I'm sure we'll have the clout to win at the federal level. But if we force a decision now, the decision will probably uphold DOMA or even strengthen it, and the resulting precedent could set us back years. By avoiding the decision at a federal level, we can put off the issue until we have a better chance of actually winning.
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Re: Obama DOJ files motion defending DoMA

Post by Coyote »

What sketerpot and veracamor say are, I think, right. Face it, the SC leans to the Right, and taking this to the SC will give the Talibangelicals a cause to rally around. If there's one thing they need right now, it is a solid issue to hang their hats on to prove that Obama is out to "destroy America". If the SC rules against gay marriage, and it's likely that would be the case, then it sets a precedent others will have to follow.

OTOH, if Obama keeps this out of the SC's hands, and lets the states fall domino-style the way they have been, then this becomes a "grass-roots fait accompli" that is delivered to the country-- and not by "big government".

Meanwhile, interestingly enough, those gay couples that have married are allowed to maintain their recognition, and other states will be obliged to recognize their marriages as reciprocity (like with driver's licenses, education, etc) or open up a big can of worms by challenging it.

Remember, once enough states accept gay marriage, they could even push an Amendment, and turn this into another fight the Rethugs cannot win, and by fighting it they will only further show how out of touch they are with the rest of the country. Obama is smart and picks his battles carefully. Also notice he has not responded much at all to all the personal attacks and mudslinging directed at him by the Republicans-- he acts as if they're not even there, and so they are left with nothing but stoking the fires of their base and looking ridiculous. If anything, I think he is going to let the Republicans lose this battle for him rather than spend the time fighting it himself. That way it may not be his victory, but it will be their defeat.

This is my take on the situation, watching. Obviously I don't know what's going on in his mind, and I could be wrong, having totally misread the political terrain. But I think the observations presented here by others as well as myself are going to be borne out in the long term. Demographics (time) is on Obama's side.
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Re: Obama DOJ files motion defending DoMA

Post by sketerpot »

I've been saying this ever since the primaries: Obama is a sneaky bastard. I'm glad he seems to be on my side most of the time, because he's a beast of a politician. I first realized this when he gave a speech announcing his "support" for faith-based initiatives with a list of policies that would neuter the program and set things back the way they were before Bush came along. And religious people cheered.
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Re: Obama DOJ files motion defending DoMA

Post by Tanasinn »

The religious are morons. They'd cheer if someone put a gun to their collective head and said that Jesus would make candy come out. I see your point, though. :)

Even if this doesn't pan out in a way that ultimately helps homosexual rights, it's not like voters have much choice - it'll either be the do-nothing Democrats or the actively hostile lunatics on the right, and I'd rather vote for a bag of horse shit than a modern Republican.
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Re: Obama DOJ files motion defending DoMA

Post by CmdrWilkens »

Coyote wrote:Meanwhile, interestingly enough, those gay couples that have married are allowed to maintain their recognition, and other states will be obliged to recognize their marriages as reciprocity (like with driver's licenses, education, etc) or open up a big can of worms by challenging it.
Coyote the only problme with this statement is reciprocity is EXACTLy what DOMA prevents. The whole point of the legislation (in the wake of the MA ruling) was to allow states with gay marriage bans to not recognize gay marriage in their jurisdiction. The whole Full Faith and Credit argument surrounding DOMA mostly relates to whether it oversteps the congressional duty to "by general laws prescribe the manner in which such acts, records, and proceedings shall be proved, and the effect thereof."

So one could argue that DOMA legislates marriage which is an overstep of the intended powers of Full Faith and Credit (that is by defining marriage Conress exceeded its enumerated powers of providing a system of proving court and governmental records). At the same time the counter argument is that Congress is well within its powers to give individual states the right to recognize only such civil unions as are granted in their own state. This is the reason why I don't want to take DOMA to the Supreme Court right now because while the right wing position is commonly associated with limitations on the power of congress I don't trust that hatred of gay marriage won't overrule that and make Roberts, Scalia, Thomas, Alito,and Kennedy vote to uphold DOMA.
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Re: Obama DOJ files motion defending DoMA

Post by Samuel »

At the same time the counter argument is that Congress is well within its powers to give individual states the right to recognize only such civil unions as are granted in their own state.
And what if they are marriages?
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Re: Obama DOJ files motion defending DoMA

Post by CmdrWilkens »

Samuel wrote:
At the same time the counter argument is that Congress is well within its powers to give individual states the right to recognize only such civil unions as are granted in their own state.
And what if they are marriages?
A marriage is a civil union within the meaning of what I wrote. Sorry I didn't make that clear, the argument is that Congress has the power to grant each state discretion in what marriages to recognize based on the last part of the FFCC. I don't buy it but I also am not sure that the current Court wouldn't.
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Pint0 Xtreme
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Re: Obama DOJ files motion defending DoMA

Post by Pint0 Xtreme »

sketerpot wrote:I've been saying this ever since the primaries: Obama is a sneaky bastard. I'm glad he seems to be on my side most of the time, because he's a beast of a politician. I first realized this when he gave a speech announcing his "support" for faith-based initiatives with a list of policies that would neuter the program and set things back the way they were before Bush came along. And religious people cheered.
I find this somewhat disconcerting. Because there's always the possibility that Obama has never given a rat's ass about gay rights and is simply maintaining the gay vote by doing non-substantial things like declaring June Gay Pride month.
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Samuel
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Re: Obama DOJ files motion defending DoMA

Post by Samuel »

Pint0 Xtreme wrote:
sketerpot wrote:I've been saying this ever since the primaries: Obama is a sneaky bastard. I'm glad he seems to be on my side most of the time, because he's a beast of a politician. I first realized this when he gave a speech announcing his "support" for faith-based initiatives with a list of policies that would neuter the program and set things back the way they were before Bush came along. And religious people cheered.
I find this somewhat disconcerting. Because there's always the possibility that Obama has never given a rat's ass about gay rights and is simply maintaining the gay vote by doing non-substantial things like declaring June Gay Pride month.
Maybe he just doesn't have the right pen :roll: The most likely thing is he feels for gays... but he won't bother actually doing anything because there are more important things to do. Part frustration at him and part at the sheer insanity that granting civil rights is a wedge issue. I can understand the motive for oppressing the blacks (cheap slave labor), but this is just sheer irrational bigotry.
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Justforfun000
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Re: Obama DOJ files motion defending DoMA

Post by Justforfun000 »

I've been saying this ever since the primaries: Obama is a sneaky bastard. I'm glad he seems to be on my side most of the time, because he's a beast of a politician. I first realized this when he gave a speech announcing his "support" for faith-based initiatives with a list of policies that would neuter the program and set things back the way they were before Bush came along. And religious people cheered.
AMEN, EH? :lol:

No I happen to agree with the people who think Obama is tackling this very carefully...I truly believe he has no animosity or judgmental nature towards homosexuals despite his professed "deeply Christian" outlook. But the man is truly a smart cookie. He knows the winds of change are still too damn scattered and haywire to pin down issues on homosexuality at the moment. You have to remember that at times of war and sagging economies, people get more stressed and start trying to "hold on" more than ever to what they feel is theirs and the way life should be...and it's common to think of the "good old days" with a nostalgiac wish. This in turn lends itself to excess bigotry. They argue "All our values are changing, no wonder we're in such a mess". A fallacy of course, but a very common viewpoint nonetheless.

Believe me, when things start looking up for the States...I'd wager in 6 years the country will be a completely different animal. Obama is a real mover and shaker. He puts his money where his mouth is and he's the most principled politician I have ever seen in my life...it's truly hard to believe in some ways that he made it to President...

Have a little faith..I think he's deliberately blocking any major fights for our own good.

However I really have to comment on this ridiculous statement:
If [a State] were to permit homosexuals to marry, these marital benefits would, absent some legislative response, presumably have to be made available to homosexual couples and surviving spouses of homosexual marriages on the same terms as they are now available to opposite-sex married couples and spouses. To deny federal recognition to same-sex marriages will thus preserve scarce government resources, surely a legitimate government purpose."
What kind of idiotic double-talk is this? Need I remind these people that if they were not gay, they would be STRAIGHT (well average-wise...not counting transgendered and bi) and therefore would be marrying each other in heterosexual marriages. The NUMBER of people wouldn't change, and therefore the government resources would be the exact same projected output in terms of cost.

Basically what they are saying is that "Well, because the government is lucky enough to discriminate against you because of your orientation, we get to save all this money that you boys and girls would be entitled to if you MARRIED OPPOSITE SEX BOYS AND GIRLS, but since you won't, well hey...it's extra money and in our interest to try to keep it that way."

What kind of fucking logic is that? That's sociopathic. :finger:
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Re: Obama DOJ files motion defending DoMA

Post by Pint0 Xtreme »

It's only June of 2009 and the gay community is already upset with Obama. He doesn't have a lot of time before their patience runs out. But if the hate crimes bill passes this week, it'll be a breather for Obama.
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