Sony Demands 150K Per Song From Customer.

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Sony Demands 150K Per Song From Customer.

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Sony lawyer: $150K damages per song "certainly" appropriate
By Nate Anderson | Last updated June 15, 2009 10:10 PM CT
The Jammie Thomas-Rasset retrial swung into high gear this afternoon as one of Sony Music Entertainment's top lawyers said that $150,000 per song certainly seemed appropriate to him. Thomas again insisted, though, that she didn't infringe any copyrights, and her lawyer called her one of the music industry's "best customers."

How much cash do the record labels deserve for Jammie Thomas-Rasset's alleged copyright infringement? Defense lawyer Kiwi Camara pressed Sony Entertainment's Gary Leak on that point today, trying to force him to pick a number. Leak refused to be baited. It was "impossible to determine harm" in this case, he said, which is why the labels want statutory damages that can range from $750 to $150,000 per song.

Camara pressed again. "A message should be sent," Leak said. But Camara wanted numbers; what, in Leak's view, did Thomas-Rasset owe Sony?

"You can't tell the jury a number?" he asked aggressively. No, said Leak, it's up to them to decide; the law allows these damages, and we are asking only what's allowed under the law. The jury must pick the award.

Camara wouldn't give it up. He asked if, by Leak's logic, even the maximum $150,000 per song damage award would therefore be an appropriate amount.

Leak at last gave in. "Certainly!" he said in apparent exasperation, milliseconds before an objection from recording industry lawyers put an end to that line of questioning.

Bulldog on defense

Camara showed himself to be an aggressive litigator today as the trial kicked off in earnest—perhaps too aggressive. Leak was the day's first witness, and before his testimony was over, Camara had been reproved twice by Judge Michael Davis.

He had a habit of asking rapid-fire questions or mounting objections before a witness of the opposing lawyer had finished speaking, and Davis quickly put a stop to that. "You cannot interrupt opposing counsel," he warned early on, turning the slow burn of his eyes on Camara. Minutes later, a second warning about talking over witnesses—"let's get this straight so we don't have any problems later on," said Davis.

Camara did give a strident opening statement in which he proclaimed Thomas-Rasset's complete innocence of the charges. "They have no evidence that Ms. Thomas did it," he said, pinning his hopes on the fact that the evidence only identifies a particular cable modem and not a particular user.

Thomas-Rasset has 200 CDs that she purchased, Camara said. "Ms. Thomas buys music, she doesn't steal it... She's one of the recording industry's best customers!"

As for the hard drive that was swapped out of her computer just a month after her alleged infringement was detected, Camara says that his client never received the notices about an investigation and replaced her hard drive for a simple reason: her 10-year old son got frustrated playing a game, hit the machine, and its hard drive broke. She took it to Best Buy and they replaced the drive. Situation clarified!

The recording industry case

But it's not, not completely, and the RIAA certainly doesn't buy it. For one thing, Thomas-Rasset was notified twice, first by instant message through KaZaA and once by FedEx package from her ISP, Charter. (She claims that she never saw either notice.)

There's also the little matter of the tereastarr@KaZaA username that investigators MediaSentry discovered. Thomas-Rasset turns out to have used the "tereastarr" username for her Charter e-mail address and a host of other online accounts; if she never used KaZaA to download or distribute music, then why did her computer have a KaZaA install with her preferred username? And that hard drive swap-out... the timing is suspicious.

Tim Reynolds, the recording industry's chief litigator in the case, made these points during his own opening statement. "The infringement in this case was substantial—massive," he told the juror, pointing out that the tereastarr@KaZaA share folder contained more than 1,700 songs.

This, he said, is not "sharing like we teach our children."

The recording industry's case unfolded in expected fashion. MediaSentry presented its evidence of having caught the tereastarr@KaZaA user sharing files; the company downloaded complete copies of 11 songs from that user and grabbed the metadata on nearly 2,000 more.

Seeking to head off the argument that these were all just CD rips, MediaSentry's Chris Connelly pointed to metadata in numerous songs that suggested the material had itself been downloaded from the Internet. "Bleeding Edge Ripping Crew," said one. "Uploaded by 0ff$3+," said another.

A Charter representative helped connect the dots, explaining how the ISP could connect the IP address logged by MediaSentry to a particular user account—in this case, to Jammie Thomas-Rasset.

The evidence appears to be quite strong, though Camara is of course right that it cannot prove in some absolute sense that it was Thomas-Rasset behind the keyboard back in 2005. That may not matter; the standard of judgment is more lenient in civil cases, and this defense failed the first time around.

Did the jury follow everything being said? With hours of testimony about MAC addresses, IP addresses, KaZaA, instant messages, share folders, MP3s, metadata, and more, the evidence might well have been difficult to take in. Jurors took notes, of course, but several testified that they could not use computers without assistance, while most others appeared to be casual computer users at best.

Still, the recording industry did a fine job of connecting the threads, always coming back to the link between the IP address, Jammie Thomas-Rasset's cable modem, and her "tereastarr" username.

A repeat in the making?

Perhaps the biggest moment of the day went totally unnoticed by jurors. During Leak's testimony, the recording industry legal team moved to enter Sony's eight copyright registrations into evidence. Camara and his team have tried to question these, hoping to undercut the entire trial, but the RIAA managed to produce certified copies of the documents this morning and the judge ultimately accepted them into evidence.

Once that happened, Camara's big gambles failed to pay out: MediaSentry's evidence was in, the copyright registrations were in, and his proposed fair use defense was out. The case now looks like it will play out last it did last time, with Thomas-Rasset taking the stand to declare that she didn't do it.

And there was evening, and there was morning, the first day. Stay tuned for more reports from Minneapolis Tuesday, when Jammie Thomas is expected to take the stand.
Sony is certainly the perfect storm of greed and stupidity in recent years, doing everything in its power to alienate the consumer base in virtually everything, on the other hand it is dishonest and lazy to download music you can legitimately get elsewhere (including legal downloads for I-Pods).

Yet I'm rather glad that the counterproductive, unwieldly IP laws that have now were not in effect during William Shakespeare’s day, otherwise he would’ve hired thugs to shakedown audience members leaving the Globe Threatre for notepads. :roll:
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Re: Sony Demands 150K Per Song From Customer.

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I read about another woman who was sued by RIAA that the actions by MediaSentry were illegal. If so, why is it allowed in court, and why haven't they been sued and/or charged?
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Re: Sony Demands 150K Per Song From Customer.

Post by General Trelane (Retired) »

Ekiqa wrote:I read about another woman who was sued by RIAA that the actions by MediaSentry were illegal. If so, why is it allowed in court, and why haven't they been sued and/or charged?
The obvious answer would be that it probably wasn't illegal.
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Re: Sony Demands 150K Per Song From Customer.

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Big Orange wrote:
Sony is certainly the perfect storm of greed and stupidity in recent years, doing everything in its power to alienate the consumer base in virtually everything,
I don't know; I'm part of their consumer base and the Sony products on my shelf were not onerous to acquire legally. Why should *I* be alienated? Because Sony is pursuing a legal action which they have every right to pursue? Because the target of their suit finds herself in trouble? Don't do this kind of crap, and you won't find yourself in this kind of trouble...
Big Orange wrote:on the other hand it is dishonest and lazy to download music you can legitimately get elsewhere (including legal downloads for I-Pods).
At least we seem to agree that there was probably some degree of wrongdoing on the part of the alleged content-thief.
Big Orange wrote:Yet I'm rather glad that the counterproductive, unwieldly IP laws that have now were not in effect during William Shakespeare’s day, otherwise he would’ve hired thugs to shakedown audience members leaving the Globe Threatre for notepads. :roll:
Laws that permit identification of civil or criminal wrongdoing using IP addresses is counterproductive?

Counterproductive for whom, the people hoping to get away with shit?
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Re: Sony Demands 150K Per Song From Customer.

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Don't artists get most money from concerts and only like peanuts from record sales? Or is that a myth? I don't feel sorry for greedy Sony at all, $15 per CD, are you having a laugh?
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Re: Sony Demands 150K Per Song From Customer.

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ABC News wrote: .
.
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Thomas-Rasset had been convicted previously, in October 2007, and ordered to pay $274,000 in damages, but the judge who presided over that trial threw out the verdict, calling it "wholly disproportionate" and "oppressive".
.
.
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So, if the first judgement was "wholly disproportionate" and "oppressive" according to the judiciary, what the fuck is this one which is orders of magnitude larger?
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Re: Sony Demands 150K Per Song From Customer.

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ExarKun wrote:Don't artists get most money from concerts and only like peanuts from record sales? Or is that a myth? I don't feel sorry for greedy Sony at all, $15 per CD, are you having a laugh?
No, they get most money from merchandise. CD profits are eaten by the companies, concerts are basically advertising merchandising and CDs with live music.
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Re: Sony Demands 150K Per Song From Customer.

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Kanastrous wrote:Laws that permit identification of civil or criminal wrongdoing using IP addresses is counterproductive?

Counterproductive for whom, the people hoping to get away with shit?
I think he means Intellectual Property laws, not laws regarding the use of IP addresses to identify people.
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Re: Sony Demands 150K Per Song From Customer.

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Worse off this time.
A federal jury Thursday found a 32-year-old Minnesota woman guilty of illegally downloading music from the Internet and fined her $80,000 each -- a total of $1.9 million -- for 24 songs.
Illegal downloads of musical files will cost a Minnesota woman $1.9 million, a jury has decided.

Jammie Thomas-Rasset's case was the first such copyright infringement case to go to trial in the United States, her attorney said.

Attorney Joe Sibley said that his client was shocked at fine, noting that the price tag on the songs she downloaded was 99 cents.

She plans to appeal, he said.
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Re: Sony Demands 150K Per Song From Customer.

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How the hell would someone ever pay that off? I mean, the average American makes about $32K a year as I recall and if we divide $1.9 million by $32K it would take nearly 60 years to pay it off if they did nothing else.
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Re: Sony Demands 150K Per Song From Customer.

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The Spartan wrote:How the hell would someone ever pay that off? I mean, the average American makes about $32K a year as I recall and if we divide $1.9 million by $32K it would take nearly 60 years to pay it off if they did nothing else.
I know why is it that half the time the jury is about as clueless as the judge is.
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Re: Sony Demands 150K Per Song From Customer.

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dragon wrote:
The Spartan wrote:How the hell would someone ever pay that off? I mean, the average American makes about $32K a year as I recall and if we divide $1.9 million by $32K it would take nearly 60 years to pay it off if they did nothing else.
I know why is it that half the time the jury is about as clueless as the judge is.
The corporate lawyers are much better equipped than any representation an ordinary person can hire to stack the jury before the trial starts. That's part of how these things work.
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Re: Sony Demands 150K Per Song From Customer.

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My biggest problem with this is the ridiculous fine compared to if I stole the damn CDs. I could walk into a record store, drag an entire rack into a bag, run away and if I got caught, I probably still wouldn't get a punishment like this. Surely this kind of theft should hold a lesser punishment than stealing a CD which can have the same knock on effects, but tangibly results in a loss to the recording companies for the CD. It seems like the only justification is as a deterrent from a crime they know they can't police.
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Re: Sony Demands 150K Per Song From Customer.

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^ that would be a criminal offense for which you could actually go to jail, rather than a civil one for which you could merely be sued.
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Re: Sony Demands 150K Per Song From Customer.

Post by Dooey Jo »

Yeah, you could "merely" get sued for a few millions. Is going to jail for a few months really worse than not having money ever again?
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Re: Sony Demands 150K Per Song From Customer.

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Kanastrous wrote:^ that would be a criminal offense for which you could actually go to jail, rather than a civil one for which you could merely be sued.
Copyright infringement can also carry criminal penalties. Look at the FBI warning on any DVD's you own for instance. 5 years I believe it states. I'm sure these are usually used on the extreme offenders like the pirate rings that get busted occaisonally, but it appears the potential for criminal penalty exists on the books.

The point still stands that monetary penalties are typically FAR higher for copyright infringement than they are for theft. If she had stole CD's from a store she could possibly see as high as $100,000 fine and legal fees...but even that would be throwing the book at her. States tend to have petty theft fines ranging from a few hundred dollars to a few thousand and the civil restitution is typically the value of what you stole and recouping legal fees.
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Re: Sony Demands 150K Per Song From Customer.

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Jaevric wrote:
Kanastrous wrote:Laws that permit identification of civil or criminal wrongdoing using IP addresses is counterproductive?

Counterproductive for whom, the people hoping to get away with shit?
I think he means Intellectual Property laws, not laws regarding the use of IP addresses to identify people.
I do not think copyright is bad in of itself and excessive piracy leads to serious quality/economy erosion (and is often a facet of organized crime), on the other hand copyright has been horribly abused and distorted for the self-aggrandizement of the few: for example 70% of music cannot be legally purchased and the royalties have made the use of music in other media too prohibitive. This sort of BS is pre-emptively hurting consumers and giving more leverage to the grey/black market.

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Re: Sony Demands 150K Per Song From Customer.

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Rye wrote:
ExarKun wrote:Don't artists get most money from concerts and only like peanuts from record sales? Or is that a myth? I don't feel sorry for greedy Sony at all, $15 per CD, are you having a laugh?
No, they get most money from merchandise. CD profits are eaten by the companies, concerts are basically advertising merchandising and CDs with live music.

I'm not familiar with merchandising. You mean like the deals that they make with certain brands?
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Re: Sony Demands 150K Per Song From Customer.

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Tshirt sales, ball caps, posters, etc.
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Re: Sony Demands 150K Per Song From Customer.

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The Spartan wrote:Tshirt sales, ball caps, posters, etc.
I see, they better sell a lot of those to outweigh the money earned from some concerts.
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Re: Sony Demands 150K Per Song From Customer.

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jcow79 wrote:Copyright infringement can also carry criminal penalties. Look at the FBI warning on any DVD's you own for instance. 5 years I believe it states.
And a $250,000 fine:

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Re: Sony Demands 150K Per Song From Customer.

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ExarKun wrote:Don't artists get most money from concerts and only like peanuts from record sales? Or is that a myth? I don't feel sorry for greedy Sony at all, $15 per CD, are you having a laugh?
I'll have to look up the report, but a former music producer ran the numbers and showed that an album that sells a quarter-million copies typically only nets its band $4,000 per member (about $16,000 total) after all the different music industry cuts. Over 50% goes to the producers alone.
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Re: Sony Demands 150K Per Song From Customer.

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Kanastrous wrote:^ that would be a criminal offense for which you could actually go to jail, rather than a civil one for which you could merely be sued.
As others have said, being "merely sued" for several million isn't a small punishment, a couple of months in jail might be a better option.

However, it's also the point the if I walked into a store and shoplifted 1 CD, say 12 songs, there fuck all chance I'd get jail, at least here in Australia, community service and a small fine most likely. but if I download the same songs, these guys reckon that warrants a multi-million dollar fine? Sorry, but that still seems extremely disproportionate to me.
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Re: Sony Demands 150K Per Song From Customer.

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Crayz9000 wrote:
ExarKun wrote:Don't artists get most money from concerts and only like peanuts from record sales? Or is that a myth? I don't feel sorry for greedy Sony at all, $15 per CD, are you having a laugh?
I'll have to look up the report, but a former music producer ran the numbers and showed that an album that sells a quarter-million copies typically only nets its band $4,000 per member (about $16,000 total) after all the different music industry cuts. Over 50% goes to the producers alone.
$4000 is criminal :shock:
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Re: Sony Demands 150K Per Song From Customer.

Post by Zwinmar »

wouldnt this fall under cruel and unusual punishment? Sounds like to me that they are bunch of greedy fucks.
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