SD.Net World Redux Comment Thread VIII

[Karmic Knight]

OK, guys I am back in the game just so you know. Is it OK if I flesh out my nation stuff a bit more. It looks a bit empty atm.

If you want to make your nation have a deeper and more in depth written portion, go ahead please.

[DarthShady]

OK, guys I am back in the game just so you know. Is it OK if I flesh out my nation stuff a bit more. It looks a bit empty atm.

If you want to make your nation have a deeper and more in depth written portion, go ahead please.

Just be careful Bluewolf. I hear your neighbors are evil communist bastards.

Siege, I like your style.

[Lonestar]

OK, guys I am back in the game just so you know. Is it OK if I flesh out my nation stuff a bit more. It looks a bit empty atm.

If you want to make your nation have a deeper and more in depth written portion, go ahead please.

Just be careful Bluewolf. I hear your neighbors are evil communist bastards.

Siege, I like your style.

I fucking love it. The moment he shoots down a ODAAF Dominion Hawk(although I don't think anyone else has 80,000+ft drones) in International Airspace...well, we got a special package in store.

[Steve]

OK, guys I am back in the game just so you know. Is it OK if I flesh out my nation stuff a bit more. It looks a bit empty atm.

Nice, you returned just in time to watch the world get blown up.

[Karmic Knight]

Nice, you returned just in time to watch the world get blown up.

Most of it anyway, the OC is definitely done for, as is MESSpartafreedomerica and the Impact Crater, but most of Valeria, Zor, and all of the other Pacific Islands should survive, and it is a toss up what will survive in the Goddamn Fucking Continent, I'm trying to stick my fingers in my ears and go 'lalala' to escape this self destruction, but Siege and Beowulf will be gunning each other down.

[K. A. Pital]

I don't think I need a 100 000 tonne megacarrier.

100 tonne, maybe not. But 40-50,000 carriers already are capable of fulldeck operations without STOVL, so building those could come handy. The UCSR is shifting towards a more full-scale, heavy tonnage carrier Navy, whereas other powers may need other types of carriers, but still. The Kiev class carriers will be going to SLEP instead of retirement - saves money, and I've really underestimated the ship operation age w/good service.

BTW, some quick calcs are showing that the naval progress of the UCSR is quite good at least, referring to the yardstick of the world's primary naval power:

UCSR
Summary nuclear supercarrier tonnage: 360,000 ton (2x Stanislav, 2x Ulyanovsk)
Summary fulldeck carrier tonnage: 810,000 ton (2x Stanislav, 2x Ulyanovsk, 4x Kuznetzov, 4x mod.Kiev)
Summary large-deck LPD tonnage: 80,000 ton (2x Kherson) [additionally, smaller LPD tonnage 40,000, 2x Yuzhao t.071]
Total carrier and large LPD tonnage: 890,000 ton

Wilkonia
Summary nuclear supercarrier tonnage: 711, 200 ton (7x Ford)
Summary fulldeck carrier tonnage: same [Wilkonia operates only nuclear carriers]
Summary large-deck LPD tonnage: 205,750 ton (5x Wasp)
Total carrier and large LPD tonnage: 916,950 ton

Ratios (UCSR to Wilkonia)
Nuclear carriers: 0,51:1
Fulldeck carriers: 1,14:1
Large LPD: 0,39:1
Total carrier/large LPD: 0,97

Dirty sub comparison
Wilkonia - only SSNs, but all VLS-capable. Summary tonnage: 126,400 ton

Summary VLS cruise missile power: 192 Tomahawk class or similar VLS launched missiles (excludes tube launched missiles if such are in the arsenal)

UCSR - SSNs and heavier SSGNs, all VLS-capable. Summary tonnage: 870,400 ton

Summary VLS cruise missile power: 200 (40 fast SLCMs + 160 Kh-101 stealth slow SLCMs), excluding tube launched Kh-55/555 family slow SLCMs.
Summary VLS anti-ship dedicated missile power: 424 (Bolid ramjet missile, 700 km range with RORSAT or plane guidance).
Summary VLS missile power: 624 missiles.
----------------------------------------

The disparity in nuclear carriers, of course, shows, but having 50% of the largest power's nuclear carrier fleet is a huge achievment in itself; so is having slightly more fulldeck tonnage than Wilkonia has. Wilkonia's huge edge in large LPDs is explainable (Wilkonia is US-modelled), but large LPDs still aren't carriers par se. The UCSR on the other hand has really lots of smaller LPDs (Ivan Rogovs, Ivan Grens) - maybe not that versatile, but for a major war they are not quite relevant whereas for a small war, the two Khersons would suffice.

In the submarine department, the UCSR is far, far superior to Wilkonia and it operates not many, but still several different classes of submarines with variable armament. This gives the much needed versatility for cruise missile attacks - for example the Typhoon Mod 941UM SSGNs with Meteorit-M missiles can augment attacks with Kh-101 stealth SLCMs. The UCSR also operates dedicated anti-ship missile armed subs - despite the relative "obsolete" Bolid missile it's still capable of a formidable Mach 4 speed and operates on a ramjet. Augmenting slow missile attacks by these boats is also an ability that Wilkonia's strategic arsenal decidedly lacks. That is not unexpected since the UCSR has determined that submarines are a more survivable weapon in case of a large confrontation with either MESS or Japanistan. In case of a lopsided naval balance in a war, submarines of the UCSR will bear the brunt of destructive tasks. SSGNs and VLS-capable SSNs have replaced SSBNs in their role, basically.

I'm well satisfied with the naval programme that the UCSR has executed in the last decade.

Moreover, the core CATO forces are now rising to rough parity with the MESS in naval strength, both tonnage-wise and function wise. Of course, the drawbacks are that many CATO forces are, tonnage-wise, composed from smaller and often non-nuclear ships, but in reality a smaller fulldeck carrier is almost as large a potential threat as a large one if left unchecked, and the range improvements with the new Frequesue bases allows CATO to maintain a strong strategic counterbalance on the seas.

[CmdrWilkens]

Hey Stas, my carrier #8 has launched as of this point so tonnage would uptick respectively. Also my SSN forces are slowly ticking upwards but the design philosophy remains centered on massive carrier capacity coupled with the most formidable surface navy in the world. Between the SM-4 capabilities and the sensor integration capabilities of STAR even a freakin Surface Action TF represents a half-sphere roughly 500km in height and 650km is diameter which cannot be penetrated unnoticed.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Hey Stas, my carrier #8 has launched as of this point so tonnage would uptick respectively. Also my SSN forces are slowly ticking upwards but the design philosophy remains centered on massive carrier capacity coupled with the most formidable surface navy in the world. Between the SM-4 capabilities and the sensor integration capabilities of STAR even a freakin Surface Action TF represents a half-sphere roughly 500km in height and 650km is diameter which cannot be penetrated unnoticed.

You aren't discounting our S-500F system are you?

[K. A. Pital]

Between the SM-4 capabilities and the sensor integration capabilities of STAR even a freakin Surface Action TF represents a half-sphere roughly 500km in height and 650km is diameter which cannot be penetrated unnoticed.

That is quite clear, but the capability to penetrate a sphere depends on the stealthiness and radar horizon. The UCSR philosophy has combined the "few very fast ramjets" with "lots of slow stealthy cruise missiles" approach for maximum efficiency, and instead of trying to penetrate unnoticed, the task is to simply overwhelm the defences with sheer numbers at the point past radar horizon where the missiles are detected in case of a large war.

In short, we aren't aiming for a "penetrate unnoticed" but for "draw your fire control systems into so many different targets that they fail".

Your completition of a 8th CVN does change the situation slightly, but the UCSR certainly became a more formidable naval power - just as teh CATO became a far more formidable naval alliance in the recent decade. That's all I was saying - we're growing

[PeZook]

[ooc]Yup, it looks like a comm sat. Congratulations on sending your men on a suicide mission. Maybe you should look up terms I use before you do something stupid, like go take a look a satellite that goes between about 29k km and 56k km over Terra with a manned orbiter. Brilliant. (My math may be a bit off, but it's pretty close). Not only that, but that's right in the outer Van Allen Belt. It's fine for a couple days, but you'll eventually gain a large enough rad dose to end up dead.

Oh come on!

We have boosters heavy enough to loft a Silver Streak and an extra service module for it into a high-inclination orbit, so there's no need for it to be a suicide mission, other than your say-so. It's not going to be standard mission profile, but then again, we're not at war yet, are we?

[RogueIce]

Well, for the record, I started composing my message before I saw the post from Stas. Though thanks for more-or-less confirming my estimation of what you'd say.

At any rate, my intent is to go to the PeZookian embassy and from there probably have a VTC with King Paul. This will take place probably within the time Shady is looking over Stanislav's memo and considering it, so what me and Paul say will pretty well be prior to him knowing about what Stansilav's plan and options would be.

On that note PeZook, we head to PM because multiple post conversations annoy me.

[K. A. Pital]

There are other options you might not know of. Just remember - some annoying things are made public... others are covertly discussed with oft unwelcome results.

In any case, my memo is not the only option we have. It's just the more traditional option over here (send carriers, talk a lot of blah blah ... )...

[RogueIce]

There are other options you might not know of. Just remember - some annoying things are made public... others are covertly discussed with oft unwelcome results.

In any case, my memo is not the only option we have. It's just the more traditional option over here (send carriers, talk a lot of blah blah ... )...

I gathered. But then you're a bit of a hardass in the game, so having the hardass option be presented is no surprise.

At any rate, I'm going with the more diplomatic approach with PeZook. Note that I'm operating under the assumption that the NFT hasn't actually told anyone in CATO about the attack on the Japanistani weather station (he hasn't made any posts about it, anyway). This is where, incidently, some of the concern over "NFT belligerence" comes from before that line of arguments starts up. The dickwaving between them and the OD doesn't help, of course. That's why I'll be bringing that evidence to PeZook, to highlight that we have concerns as well.

All that said, yes I am going to acknowledge that the OD is quite at fault and has certainly done their share to stir the pot. That's why the general gist of it is that the two alliances are going to pressure both sides to back down and, if not make amends, at least not risk a shooting war. In essence, I'm not going to go into it trying to say that either side has the moral high ground and that both need to back off before it gets out of hand. Because assigning blame is what gets us into these things to begin with, and if that means I have to go with the "golden mean" of who's wrong, so be it.

[K. A. Pital]

Note that I'm operating under the assumption that the NFT hasn't actually told anyone in CATO about the attack on the Japanistani weather station (he hasn't made any posts about it, anyway).

He hasn't as I gather. For him it was an ordinary anti-piracy operation and nothing more. As for "over here", I was referring to Frequesue every time shit starts brewing someone sends carriers - it's just the ordinary way, yiban shir as Tian Xian would say. That's actually tiresome and expensive fuel-wise, but it's also conventional and sends a signal that it's "common buzness". That's not the "hardass option". The hardass option is immediate action - which is also possible.

[RogueIce]

He hasn't as I gather. For him it was an ordinary anti-piracy operation and nothing more. As for "over here", I was referring to Frequesue every time shit starts brewing someone sends carriers - it's just the ordinary way, yiban shir as Tian Xian would say. That's actually tiresome and expensive fuel-wise, but it's also conventional and sends a signal that it's "common buzness". That's not the "hardass option". The hardass option is immediate action - which is also possible.

Well, it doesn't really calm stuff down. Prevent a shooting incident? Maybe. Although if one look at it from a perspective I mentioned before (the NFT hiding behind CATO's skirts) it will only serve to reinforce that notion: that the NFT's "bravado" of late is due to their CATO security blanket. Especially for those of us who know about them shooting at Japanistani outposts.

That's why I'm going the way I'm going. Sending in carriers and stuff may work to solve the immediate problem and be "business as usual" to an extent, but it doesn't resolve the underlying issues that are at the root of all this. And in some ways may make it worse.

[Siege]

First off, Beowulf, you don't get to RP my orbiters. Secondly, I've had restartable upper maneuvering stages and transfer vehicles for orbital refueling for years so I've got oodles of Delta-V to spare. Thirdly, I've long since developed the long-range StS missiles required to blow up satellites at long range if I so desired. SIM-147 is essentially designed to get at the GPS constellation.

But first and foremost you don't get to RP my orbiters. So yeah, that's total bullshit and I'm merrily going to ignore it.

PS: And if it looks like a comm satellite and acts like a comm satellite, then it's a comm satellite and I'll call bullshit on any hypothetical "lol hidden strategic weapons platform" later. Just so you know.

[Bluewolf]

Nice, you returned just in time to watch the world get blown up.

Oh so Its not worth joining? I knew I was kind of too late, I was hoping to develop things more and just say out of the way. *sigh*

[PeZook]

Nice, you returned just in time to watch the world get blown up.

Oh so Its not worth joining? I knew I was kind of too late, I was hoping to develop things more and just say out of the way. *sigh*

Uh...give up easy, man?

Nobody's blowing up the world just yet.

[Bluewolf]

Sorry, it just makes it sound like that the is some massive war or something. I apolagise for melodramtic, i am not feeling well today.

Edit: Coyote I need some info off you but as its long I have PMed it. You know what I mean.

[Lonestar]

PeZook, so far as I know we don't have anything like an actual "Law of the Sea".

[Siege]

PeZook, so far as I know we don't have anything like an actual "Law of the Sea".

From here:

Total aside but I know I specifically requested that we accept as fiat for the game that any treaty or international obligation signed before WWII in the real world applies to this world. So far as I'm concerned this would include any salvage precedent from that period or even the concept of precedent within international maritime law.

As far as I know we've been operating under that presumption since the start of the game. Which would at the very least include the concept of 'freedom of the seas'.

[Lonestar]

As far as I know we've been operating under that presumption since the start of the game. Which would at the very least include the concept of 'freedom of the seas'.

Fine, then I'm treating the IC like China does the South China Sea. Except this time I have all the surrounding nations aggreeing to it.

[PeZook]

PeZook, so far as I know we don't have anything like an actual "Law of the Sea".

That's a first for me. Didn't we agree to use two conventions from real life (Convention on Diplomatic relations and the aforementioned convention on the law of the sea) to avoid having to write them all over?

I certainly brought up rules from both conventions in the past, and nobody seemed to object.

[Bluewolf]

with CF-01s and all F-15 ACTIVEs with CF-02s

Ok I was meaning to ask this, what are those planes and what role do they play (interception, air superiority) etc?

[CmdrWilkens]

PeZook, so far as I know we don't have anything like an actual "Law of the Sea".

That's a first for me. Didn't we agree to use two conventions from real life (Convention on Diplomatic relations and the aforementioned convention on the law of the sea) to avoid having to write them all over?

I certainly brought up rules from both conventions in the past, and nobody seemed to object.

I agreee, however your diplomats calmly ignored that the law of the sea includes the Exclusive Economic Zone out to 200mi and the OICAS and its member state are more than free to ban commercial shipping within that sphere. Moreover since the OICAS could consider itself a colelctive Archipelagic state then it would, under Part IV, retain toal control of the entire inner volume of the Archipegalo. So yeah, what they did was perfectly legal so long as it extends no further than 200mi outward from the IC and encompasses the internal volume as well.

They have no right to restrict innocent or military passage outside of territorial waters but they do have the right to restrict commercial ventures in both zones and military traffic in Archipelagic waters.