SD.Net World Redux Comment Thread VIII

[RogueIce]

Uh Fin? Your Exarch CGN is longer, almost as beamy, and displaces more than a bloody LPD-17, not to mention it being nuclear powered and having a shitton of VLS and no doubt quite expensive missiles. Not to mention, you yourself label it as costing 5 billion (what? US dollars?) while a Nimitz costs about 4.5 billion. And you're planning to build 16 of them, on a Kingdom's budget?

How?

And yes, the Allegiance is going to be pretty large, but then I have reconsidered and I'm building less, before anyone asks. And anyway, yours is still bigger, and has more VLS cells (and your VLS cells are larger than ours on top of that) to boot.

So a very fine penis compensator of a ship, to be sure. But how are you affording 16 of those? Alongside the rest of your military?

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Uh Fin? Your Exarch CGN is longer, almost as beamy, and displaces more than a bloody LPD-17, not to mention it being nuclear powered and having a shitton of VLS and no doubt quite expensive missiles. Not to mention, you yourself label it as costing 5 billion (what? US dollars?) while a Nimitz costs about 4.5 billion. And you're planning to build 16 of them, on a Kingdom's budget?

How?

Tsardom with 2.5 trillion GDP edging towards 3, or did someone forget that I had more muscle? And also numbers are projected. Might terminate at 10. 5 billion is a very top level estimate. Funny that it took so long for someone to notice the cost having posted it up..... nearly half a year ago?

And Nimitz class ships are substantially more expensive than 4.5 billion if one were to take into account the sheer numbers of aircraft. And feth, not even half the numbers of the projected numbers of my destroyers and cruisers have even been built, and often at a rate of at most 3 a year and only 2 for cruisers.

And yes, the Allegiance is going to be pretty large, but then I have reconsidered and I'm building less, before anyone asks. And anyway, yours is still bigger, and has more VLS cells (and your VLS cells are larger than ours on top of that) to boot.

You never really put up a cost estimate for your ships either. So I am curious that you are asking me about costs when you guys are happily trotting up lots of these things within a short time span of 4-5 years. You have what? 23 fucking 15,000 tonne destroyers, and 13 25-28000 tonne cruisers? More than double what I have been steadily building?

So a very fine penis compensator of a ship, to be sure. But how are you affording 16 of those? Alongside the rest of your military?

My military runs at 10-15% GDP because I have a clear and present threat down below, unlike you and the rest. In fact, these days I am almost inclined to indulge in some dickery with Japanistan in Valeria nad leave you and Steve fuming over it, just for snickers and laughs.

[RogueIce]

Tsardom with 2.5 trillion GDP edging towards 3, or did someone forget that I had more muscle? And also numbers are projected. Might terminate at 10. 5 billion is a very top level estimate. Funny that it took so long for someone to notice the cost having posted it up..... nearly half a year ago?

I though you started as a Kingdom? Oh well, may bad there. As for why now...as I said, we're actually looking at the things and we noticed problems in our own designs (or rather, what Wilkens designed for us) and that got us to looking around at other stuff.

You never really put up a cost estimate for your ships either. So I am curious that you are asking me about costs when you guys are happily trotting up lots of these things within a short time span of 4-5 years. You have what? 23 fucking 15,000 tonne destroyers, and 13 25-28000 tonne cruisers? More than double what I have been steadily building?

I've been at about the same rate as you, though 4/year on the destroyers, but same for the cruisers. I've kept that rate, and I'm pretty sure I started before you. And your equivalent ships are bigger than mine, so if you have a problem with my build rate, you need to look really hard at your own. At any rate, such a build time may be excessive, but I also have twice the economy of you. So if that's the case, you really overextended.

Your cruisers are way bigger, while the destroyers are about the same, and as for build rates, we're even on the cruisers and I build one more destroyer, but given the cruiser disparity that probably roughly evens out. So you can't complain about my build rates without trashing your own anyway.

So we have three options:

1) Both of us are building way over budget.

2) I'm building on budget and you're over budget.

3) I'm below budget and you're on budget, in which case I can reinvest in my economy or whatever. Yay economic growth!

This is the simplistic method of looking at things, although overall I'm not spending much on procurement outside of my Navy anyway, which is a carrier (over the next few years), some frigates (4 at about the size of the F100), a couple subs and an LHA (over the next few years) outside of this, and on the air side 30 KC-42 tankers pver the next three years. I'm not trying to field 5th generation fighters the way you are (that pretty well finished awhile ago), and even then I'm not looking at the numbers you project for yourself anyway.

If there's overspending here...it ain't me.

[K. A. Pital]

Technically though I don't really understand why would a ship cost so much (4+ billion). Even with the tonnage of a Kirov, it could cost 2-3 billion at most and that's if you stuff it up with the most modern internals possible. I hardly can imagine a normal (i.e. not butchered-shape like the Zumwalt) hull costing any more than 2-3 billion. The Peter the Great costs 1 billion USD with all the upgrades - and that ship had a 10-year construction span, immensely driving up the costs.

I would believe the RCS-reducing coating being a major factor, but it can't be too much. RCS-reducing coating now is used by everyone and his dog. Even in the real world as well.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I though you started as a Kingdom? Oh well, may bad there. As for why now...as I said, we're actually looking at the things and we noticed problems in our own designs (or rather, what Wilkens designed for us) and that got us to looking around at other stuff.

I'm not surprised. We were looking at yours months ago and realised they were rather light weight for the tonnage you were stating to have. If the real issue is too many cells, then I will think about cutting them back but the parameters of the cells better not be quibbled upon when I set the number of missiles per cell.

I've been at about the same rate as you, though 4/year on the destroyers, but same for the cruisers. I've kept that rate, and I'm pretty sure I started before you. And your equivalent ships are bigger than mine, so if you have a problem with my build rate, you need to look really hard at your own. At any rate, such a build time may be excessive, but I also have twice the economy of you. So if that's the case, you really overextended.

The build rate is such that I laid down 3 destroyer hulls and construction is 2 years long which meant that though I started 1-2 years after you did, I had to wait for 2 years before the first ship finally came out for trials. Considering the complexity of nuclear ships, I thought that was reasonable.

Your cruisers are way bigger, while the destroyers are about the same, and as for build rates, we're even on the cruisers and I build one more destroyer, but given the cruiser disparity that probably roughly evens out. So you can't complain about my build rates without trashing your own anyway.

So we have three options:

1) Both of us are building way over budget.

2) I'm building on budget and you're over budget.

3) I'm below budget and you're on budget, in which case I can reinvest in my economy or whatever. Yay economic growth!

This is the simplistic method of looking at things, although overall I'm not spending much on procurement outside of my Navy anyway, which is a carrier (over the next few years), some frigates (4 at about the size of the F100), a couple subs and an LHA (over the next few years) outside of this, and on the air side 30 KC-42 tankers pver the next three years. I'm not trying to field 5th generation fighters the way you are (that pretty well finished awhile ago), and even then I'm not looking at the numbers you project for yourself anyway.

If there's overspending here...it ain't me.

Well you are the one who came complaining they were freaking expensive and too many and I countered that you have way more than what I have even in the future. Heck, I may stop the construction of destroyers at 24 ships and cruisers at 12 and I have.. what 4-5 years to make a decision from now whereas for you have only.. 3?

Technically though I don't really understand why would a ship cost so much (4+ billion). Even with the tonnage of a Kirov, it could cost 2-3 billion at most and that's if you stuff it up with the most modern internals possible. I hardly can imagine a normal (i.e. not butchered-shape like the Zumwalt) hull costing any more than 2-3 billion. The Peter the Great costs 1 billion USD with all the upgrades - and that ship had a 10-year construction span, immensely driving up the costs.

I would believe the RCS-reducing coating being a major factor, but it can't be too much. RCS-reducing coating now is used by everyone and his dog. Even in the real world as well.

Personally I was just pegging the upper bound. It will likely be cheaper to like 3-4 billion for the cruisers, and 2-3 billion for the destroyers at current build rates.

[RogueIce]

I'm not surprised. We were looking at yours months ago and realised they were rather light weight for the tonnage you were stating to have.

Yeah. Actually, apparently Beo was talking to erik_t and he had the idea to base it off the Long Beach hulls. I just did a quick and dirty modification and, length-wise anyway, it seems to fit. So we'll see how it goes.

EDIT: And no, it won't have the big box on the top.

If the real issue is too many cells, then I will think about cutting them back but the parameters of the cells better not be quibbled upon when I set the number of missiles per cell.

That part I believe is Beo's gripe. You'll have to take it up with him.

As for the rest, it's late, I'm tired and yeah I made a few errors in my post so I won't bother continuing with that. Main concern on the DDGN is whether you'd fit all those cells on. That destroyer should be pretty big, and all you really have listed is displacement so it looked off. The specs on the cruiser aren't off near as I can tell, but it'll be pretty pricey for one with those specs I'd think.

At any rate, this is the problem I had with mine: I didn't really know the full specs of our cruisers, so I built them thinking they'd be beefier Ticos, more or less. Turns out they're monsters, and probably will be so because, well, those weapons systems take up a lot of room. So I'm basically limiting it to 15 [[OOC terms here, in-game it's to be decided]] (which would end my current run) until or unless me and Beo figure a way of slimming them down a bit. Or until we have a good handle on it, though if your cruisers are gonna run $3-4 billion ours will likely be near there or even a bit cheaper because, as they are now, they're quite a bit bigger.

So we'll see. Shipbucket sure does come in handy for things like this: even if it's not really an exact schematic, we can at least visualize the things.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

So we'll see. Shipbucket sure does come in handy for things like this: even if it's not really an exact schematic, we can at least visualize the things.

To put it simply, shipbucket isn't exactly the easiest things to use, and I suck at using Paint or any of the drawing softwares because I don't really know how to draw things properly on a computer beyond arrows and simple lines.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I have decided to drive the VLS count to 156 cells but of 1m by 1m. In short, I do not expect any more grumblings about size. I may also edit the CGN as well so give me time to think about the changes in length.

EDIT: I may drive it down to 144 cells, and the CGN to 192 cells. Lemme think about it.

[Beowulf]

I was mostly annoyed about grumbling about me fitting Mk58 missiles to my cruisers, despite the Italians fitting the Giuseppi Garibaldi with 4 Polaris tubes back in the 1960s. Polaris being much larger in diameter and weight than KEI.

Second question: what drives the size of the VLS cell? Mk58 was being driven by the size of KEI. Mk41 was driven by the size of the Tomahawk. Why do your cells have a 1m size? Also, the deck area used still doesn't change: you still have over 100% more deck area used for VLS cells than the Gloucester class. The Gloucesters have about 69 sq meters of deck area used for VLS cells. You've got 156 sq meters.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I was mostly annoyed about grumbling about me fitting Mk58 missiles to my cruisers, despite the Italians fitting the Giuseppi Garibaldi with 4 Polaris tubes back in the 1960s. Polaris being much larger in diameter and weight than KEI.

Oh I figured this was something of a hit job anyway, especially when it took so long for someone to fret about something that's been up for ages.

Second question: what drives the size of the VLS cell? Mk58 was being driven by the size of KEI. Mk41 was driven by the size of the Tomahawk. Why do your cells have a 1m size? Also, the deck area used still doesn't change: you still have over 100% more deck area used for VLS cells than the Gloucester class. The Gloucesters have about 69 sq meters of deck area used for VLS cells. You've got 156 sq meters.

Because I want to fire hypersonic missiles, many of which are about .9m in diameter, in addition to my standard warload.

I suppose I could drive it further down.. 96 cells instead...

[RogueIce]

To put it simply, shipbucket isn't exactly the easiest things to use, and I suck at using Paint or any of the drawing softwares because I don't really know how to draw things properly on a computer beyond arrows and simple lines.

I'm decent enough at taking an existing design and then copy/pasting the parts stuff on to it. If I have to make major revisions to the hull, that's where it gets messy.

Is this what Stas used for his things though? I don't think he's done your new stuff. It is easier to see where my objections came from (for me anyway) when I started to see how big our stuff was getting, and then yours was bigger. The images you have now really don't look like it. But I'm more a visual person, anyway.

Oh I figured this was something of a hit job anyway, especially when it took so long for someone to fret about something that's been up for ages.

Not on my end, anyway. As I said, I had grossly underestimated our own ships and what they'd entail. It wasn't until then I really realized things might be amiss.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I'm decent enough at taking an existing design and then copy/pasting the parts stuff on to it. If I have to make major revisions to the hull, that's where it gets messy.

Is this what Stas used for his things though? I don't think he's done your new stuff. It is easier to see where my objections came from (for me anyway) when I started to see how big our stuff was getting, and then yours was bigger. The images you have now really don't look like it. But I'm more a visual person, anyway.

I believe Stas used some variant and did his own drawings thereafter instead of following Shipbucket outright.

I did my own extrapolations but it seems i have overdone it. I may still revisit the cell count for the CGN, but the DDGN ought to be final, especially considering that in all technicality, the number of cells is equivalent to 3-4 times what the Arleigh Burke has. (especially when I put down ~1m which means +/- 0.1m thereabouts.)

[Siege]

Hmm, if Indhopal is selling their Standard class ships to Japanistan the NFT will insist that all sensitive electronics be removed from them first. That's FTO tech, much of it developed by San Dorado, and even though I've since upgraded my own destroyers with CATO electronics it's not something I'd feel comfortable with falling into Japanistani hands.

[CmdrWilkens]

'Fin I've got my original numbers for the STAR class vessels but I'm running 'em past a couple folks to make sure they check out. I went back to double check them against my budgets with a 20% overbudget charge and I'm still well within the range I was expecting. So anyway I should have unit costs (in both original and current dollars) sometime this weekend for fully outfitted variants of all three Wilkonian designed STAR vessels (the variants by each nationality would be adjusted from that base price).

The one bit I will give out is that I published for a couple months running the program costs for "New Horizons" and the 10 year rolling expenditures were between 1.7 and 2.2T which means an annual average of $220Bn which is easily absorbed within my budget.

[RogueIce]

Well, I now know what hull to base the STAR CGN on:

---

On a more serious note, the Long Beach hull form for our STAR DDGNs will be something like this, as best as Shipbucket can represent it:





The Wiki has been updated to reflect the new dimensions. The ODN variation will probably be added to the page later. Whenever somebody gets around to it.

[Raj Ahten]

Hmm, if Indhopal is selling their Standard class ships to Japanistan the NFT will insist that all sensitive electronics be removed from them first. That's FTO tech, much of it developed by San Dorado, and even though I've since upgraded my own destroyers with CATO electronics it's not something I'd feel comfortable with falling into Japanistani hands.

What sort of sensitive electronics? As you say all your vessels have already changed to CATO standards so just how much damage could there be on top of what has already happened to all the former FTO programs? When the FTO imploded I assume its technical secrets were pretty much fair game given that members joined both MESS and CATO making sure everyone was quite up to date on our systems capabilities.

Anyway Indhopal has just as much of a right to the former FTO technology as anyone; I am sure I paid for quite a lot of its R&D and procurement not to mention the fact that I usually stated that Indhopolese engineers were doing joint work on such projects. I usually kept it low key as I personally was quite willing, and grateful, to let other players actually figure out what the final designs would look like. (I'm still quite happy to do that as trying to figure out exactly how many VLS cells I can fit into a given hull isn't one of my favorite activities.)

Anyways if the sale goes forward to Japanistan (so far no one else has expressed interest) the NFT can feel free to protest it. It sounds like an interesting topic to have nationalist's have arguments over .

[Siege]

What sort of sensitive electronics? As you say all your vessels have already changed to CATO standards so just how much damage could there be on top of what has already happened to all the former FTO programs? When the FTO imploded I assume its technical secrets were pretty much fair game given that members joined both MESS and CATO making sure everyone was quite up to date on our systems capabilities.

Good point, I hadn't considered that. But you're right, between this and the Warden having been inspected by pretty much every damned intelligence agency under the sun (thanks, Shroom...) our electronics probably in all likelihood aren't as sensitive as they used to be anymore . Luckily we've been overhauling the sub fleet too... *Sigh*

Consider the matter dropped!

[Shinn Langley Soryu]

Hmm, if Indhopal is selling their Standard class ships to Japanistan the NFT will insist that all sensitive electronics be removed from them first. That's FTO tech, much of it developed by San Dorado, and even though I've since upgraded my own destroyers with CATO electronics it's not something I'd feel comfortable with falling into Japanistani hands.

<snip snip>

Anyways if the sale goes forward to Japanistan (so far no one else has expressed interest) the NFT can feel free to protest it. It sounds like an interesting topic to have nationalist's have arguments over .

In exchange for bidding on your requirement for new corvettes, I'd like the four Burkes, the two Standards, and the Sachsen. Better they be in my hands than in Japanistan's.

[Bluewolf]

I was just going to ask what is the state of the the Fresq territories? I want to update the map you see and I need to know any changes so I can fully do it.

Also how much would those those ships cost. Soon when I get back in I may have an interest in them and you would not need to gut the electronics of course.

[Siege]

This I believe is the most current map; I think the only thing missing on it is that Sabika has recently also elected to join the NFT.

[RogueIce]

Good point, I hadn't considered that. But you're right, between this and the Warden having been inspected by pretty much every damned intelligence agency under the sun (thanks, Shroom...)

The MESS never got to look at it. Just the future CATO guys, actually. Back then it was still the SNC, though. And since you joined CATO anyway this is also a moot point.

Though I'm pretty sure Karmic has them, but he's an observer. I don't really know if we'd have gotten an in depth look. Probably not, though. I haven't been curious enough to ask him, at any rate.

[CmdrWilkens]

You never really put up a cost estimate for your ships either. So I am curious that you are asking me about costs when you guys are happily trotting up lots of these things within a short time span of 4-5 years. You have what? 23 fucking 15,000 tonne destroyers, and 13 25-28000 tonne cruisers? More than double what I have been steadily building?

Total program costs as applied on a per unit basis are rated as $1.9Bn/Imperator, $3.4Bn/Allegiance, and $580mil/Victory. Anyway first delivery of a vessels was in 2012 and through 2017 there have been 19 CGN, 26 DDGN, 18FFG deliveries. This represents a total cost of just over $124Bn in aquisition costs over 6 years, if I take those numbers (they were my rough cost numbers of basically the per ton cost of a new DDG-51 ($1.1Bn) plus the estimated unit cost of going nuke from the CG(X) study) if we add 20% in overruns and 2% annual inflation then the combined program cost over the 6 years would be $142Bn...or just over $23Bn/year. With a GDP of just under $6T this represents .4% of GDP. Moreover I'm shelving existing units with higher annual operating costs and over the same period downgraded an entire Army Corps to reserve status while eliminating my strategic bomber command. I'd say that even with my operational costs, procurement of an additional CVN, procurement of additional amphibs, and re-equipping the Marines with EFVs (still underway) I'm pretty decently budgeted.


Answering in advance the question about the unit cost versus DDG-1000 (estimated at roughly $3.3bn/unit) that program includes a shit load of demonstration technologies which are being paid for out of other segments of the Wilkonian budget. The units costs themselves I would say are relatively accurate AS IS (the 20% cost over-run was a check on my part to see if I could afford NOT what I think the final price is). I say this because volume begets per unit price reductions that the renewed DDG-51 production will not have, the associated technology development costs are not included in the unit price (like with DDG-1000), the finalization of all design and system requirements more than a decade ago means cheaper more mature technology along with no new changes required to the basic infrastructure. The reason I have the most of the vessels is that the Imperator , Victory, and Allegiance classes represent the bog standard design which was then licensed to all other powers either for local production or updated design work (such as the TXN and ODN updates) which may or may not affect the final unit cost locally.


So anyway that's the math behind the units. As an aside the annual outlays to the STAR funding are still only a portion of the total military budget. New Horizons as a whole has an annual average expenditure of $170Bn representing 70% of the procurement budget (in other words procurement is roughly 4% GDP, total military including procurement is 12% GDP). The unit cost, in turn, does not represent development costs for SPY-3, SM-4 (though it represents final unit cost to outfit the vessels), or any of the other New/Far Horizons technologies.

[Coyote]

This I believe is the most current map; I think the only thing missing on it is that Sabika has recently also elected to join the NFT.

Also, Eutopia and Vinlands united to become one country, too.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Lonestar, I leave it to you to take it from there.

Should we have both Patriarchs of Constantinople and of Shepland sitting in the same room?

[Bluewolf]

This I believe is the most current map; I think the only thing missing on it is that Sabika has recently also elected to join the NFT.

Also, Eutopia and Vinlands united to become one country, too.

OK, what shall I call those countries if they are one?