Raising a child as an atheist

[Tolya]

So, me and my wife have decided to have a baby. The reason that we want to and we feel ready is perhaps the main, but not the only one. So we are preparing right now, eating healthy food, taking all the necessary vitamins etc and avoiding alcohol. The stuff that helps you make sure the baby will be as healthy as possible.

But the question I would like to ask to parents here (DW in particular, since he probably has the most experience) is to how to raise a kid without phony gods and other supernatural stuff.

I had a discussion about that with my wife and while we both agree that there will be no christening to appeal to the religious part of our family and to "make the child fit better into society" (which in my opinion is a sneaky backdoor for religion to get into the faithless families). Thing is (although we are not very experienced in this) that small children and kids generally need to see a purpose in the world. If a child asks you why the sky is blue, a religious person can answer that god/gods made it that way and elaborate on religion from now on. A harsher example would be death. How do you tell a 3-year old that grandma ceased to exist, instead of just comforting them by saying that she is in heaven and she has a great time.

DW, I would like to know what you did when Fuzzy died - did you tell your children that his favourite dog just ceased to exist and he is gone forever? Or did you do something else?

Thing is, the stuff about death that most atheists believe to many people are quite scary. I have come to terms with the prospect of nonexistence (I remember a great quote, was it Bertrand Russel who said that he didn't exist before he was born and it didn't bother him?), but wouldn't that be scary to a child? How do you explain difficult concepts to a child?

I would like my child to be raised free of religion and teach him to think for himself. But Im not sure how to do this - there are theories out there that children are "born theists" and are very gullible to all theories that there exist some "greater entity" that controls the world and gives it meaning. Can a 3-4 year old understand evolution, when so many adult people struggle with it?

So, how to balance the truth and fairy tales? I remember how much joy meeting Santa Claus had given me when I was a kid and what a magical time Christmas was. But at the same time I will not let my child to be subjugated and scared by concepts like eternal damnation and hellish brimstone that are prepared for us by our "everloving, merciful God".

[Surlethe]

If a child asks you why the sky is blue, a religious person can answer that god/gods made it that way and elaborate on religion from now on. A harsher example would be death. How do you tell a 3-year old that grandma ceased to exist, instead of just comforting them by saying that she is in heaven and she has a great time.

I've decided that if my daughter asks any "why" questions, I'm going to give her factual answers to the best of my ability. "Why is the sky blue?" is because nitrogen in the atmosphere scatters blue light. "Where is granma?" is simply, "She died - her brain doesn't work anymore." To tell my child anything else would ultimately, I feel, be a disservice, even if it causes some emotional distress at the time - one of my goals in raising my daughter (and my other children, when they come) is to teach them how to handle the world as it actually is, instead of as they'd like it to be; a part of that is accepting that things exist they don't and won't like, and they have to figure out (I have to teach them) how to deal with that.

Thing is, the stuff about death that most atheists believe to many people are quite scary. I have come to terms with the prospect of nonexistence (I remember a great quote, was it Bertrand Russel who said that he didn't exist before he was born and it didn't bother him?), but wouldn't that be scary to a child? How do you explain difficult concepts to a child?

As simply as possible while retaining integrity. And if nonexistence is the way things are, then you owe it to your child to tell her that. Mind, you also need to be giving her the tools to decide her own beliefs for herself when she's old enough.

[Oskuro]

I'm not a parent, nor am I close to being one, but regarding the whole Nonexistence bit, when presenting it to your children you could sweeten it by focusing on the benefits of non-existence, namely a complete lack of suffering.

At least that's what I focus on when discussing the death of loved ones, specially those who had an agonizing and protracted end, once it's over you can seek comfort in the knowledge that they won't suffer anymore.

[TheLostVikings]

If a child asks you why the sky is blue, a religious person can answer that god/gods made it that way and elaborate on religion from now on. A harsher example would be death. How do you tell a 3-year old that grandma ceased to exist, instead of just comforting them by saying that she is in heaven and she has a great time.

I've decided that if my daughter asks any "why" questions, I'm going to give her factual answers to the best of my ability. "Why is the sky blue?" is because nitrogen in the atmosphere scatters blue light. "Where is granma?" is simply, "She died - her brain doesn't work anymore." To tell my child anything else would ultimately, I feel, be a disservice, even if it causes some emotional distress at the time - one of my goals in raising my daughter (and my other children, when they come) is to teach them how to handle the world as it actually is, instead of as they'd like it to be; a part of that is accepting that things exist they don't and won't like, and they have to figure out (I have to teach them) how to deal with that.

That's basically what my dad did, and I most certainly turned out okay. (well imho of course)

The trick is to make it understandable to your target audience (kids), without dumbing it down too much (which can be surprisingly hard). The sky example can be explained very intuitively by simply shining a light trough a prism, the blue light "bends more" and thus when the light from the sun passes overhead the blue lights is the one that "bends down" so we can see it, etc, etc, etc.

And never be afraid to admit you simply doesn't know the answer to that question. It is always better to say: "I don't know, but if you want I can look it up and come back to you." Than to simply make up some vague BS while dancing around the question (which I've sadly seen many an adult do because they refuse to "show weakness" by admitting the limits of their own knowledge).

[Mayabird]

Or better yet, "I don't know, so let's look it up together." More quality time with the kids and you get them in the habit of looking up information and checking facts on their own.

Thing is, the stuff about death that most atheists believe to many people are quite scary. I have come to terms with the prospect of nonexistence (I remember a great quote, was it Bertrand Russel who said that he didn't exist before he was born and it didn't bother him?), but wouldn't that be scary to a child?

My parents explained to me that nonexistence is like the dreamless parts of sleep. Nothing there to know or remember. My grandfather died when I was four and that's what they told me.

Also, that thing about kids being gullible? That extends to most everything. Kids believe that whatever they grow up with is normal and right, no matter how screwed up it could actually be (hence why children who grow up with abuse seldom run away or do anything about it). When four year old me was told that grandpa just didn't exist anymore or that the televangelists on TV were just jerks trying to take money from stupid people, I just went, "Okay" and went to the next thing. There was no natural push to believing in higher powers or anything because I wasn't raised like that from the beginning. No mention of greater purposes or higher powers or crap and no strict authoritarian "because I said so" as an answer to anything.

But, I'm not a parent and basing everything on my twenty year old memories of being a little kid might not be the absolute best course of action.

[Darth Wong]

To tell my child anything else would ultimately, I feel, be a disservice, even if it causes some emotional distress at the time - one of my goals in raising my daughter (and my other children, when they come) is to teach them how to handle the world as it actually is, instead of as they'd like it to be; a part of that is accepting that things exist they don't and won't like, and they have to figure out (I have to teach them) how to deal with that.

It's easy to say what you would do when you haven't actually had to put it into practice.

What are you going to say if your child figures out what death is at the age of 4, and is crying and saying "When I close my eyes, I won't even see black"? What will you say when your wife looks at you with pleading eyes and says "what do we tell him?"

Hmm? Oh yeah, it's easy to sit on a fucking webboard and confidently say "Oh yeah, I'll just give my kid the hard truth, and it will be a good lesson in how tough life is!" But that won't help you when the moment comes, if it comes. Some kids don't ask those kinds of questions. David didn't. But Matthew did, because he's a very philosophical child.

Even if you must do that, you should at least try to put it in the most uplifting light possible. 4 years old is too young to be introduced to the "life's a bitch and then you die" harsh reality school of teaching. I told Matthew that when we die, we return to the great cycle of life, and we eventually become reborn into other living things. Which is technically true; our organic material returns to the biosystem and will eventually be recycled into other living organisms. That seemed to make him feel better.

[FSTargetDrone]

Thing is, the stuff about death that most atheists believe to many people are quite scary. I have come to terms with the prospect of nonexistence (I remember a great quote, was it Bertrand Russel who said that he didn't exist before he was born and it didn't bother him?), but wouldn't that be scary to a child? How do you explain difficult concepts to a child?

I think that was Twain:

"I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it."

[Oskuro]

It's easy to say what you would do when you haven't actually had to put it into practice.

What are you going to say if your child figures out what death is at the age of 4, and is crying and saying "When I close my eyes, I won't even see black"?

Can't agree more. I can still remember the day I figured death out, mainly because I figured that my parents would die eventually, and went to my mother crying that I didn't want her to die. She conforted me with a loving "I'm not going to die, silly", to wich I replied that, eventually, she would get old and die.

I shudder at the idea of ever facing such a thing from my own children.

I told Matthew that when we die, we return to the great cycle of life, and we eventually become reborn into other living things.

That's an elegant solution, craft a pleasant explanation wich is technically correct, so it can be expanded further on. Better than outright making stuff up that they can eventually figure out is a lie and contradict.

[Coyote]

I've seen it happen-- be prepared for other little kids to go "you don't celebrate Christmas!?" "You don't believe in Jesus!? You're going to Hell!" "You're Gramma's in Hell being tortured by the Devil because you don't believe in Jesus!" It happens. Kids are mean. When your kid is surrounded by five or six other kids spouting silliness, the desire to fit in will erode at them.

And, be prepared for a kid to grow up thinking "maybe there is something out there after all" and dabble in religion.

[Darth Wong]

Who said anything about not celebrating Christmas? We celebrate Christmas every year. As I often point out, Christmas is just a hijacked pagan holiday anyway.

It helps that both of my kids are fond of ancient pagan mythology (Matthew is a bit of an Ancient Rome afictionado and David's favourite book is "Mythologica", which is a compendium of pagan mythological creatures), so it's a pretty easy sell to point out all of the pagan influences in Christmas.

Mind you, we don't live in the US Deep South. People here don't get on your case about stuff like that when there are so many Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, and other assorted religions around. It's not like the US Deep South where you don't want to be the only kid in the class who's not Christian.

[Korvan]

There is comfort to be found in science. Take space-time equivalence, since time is really just another spatial dimension we're all really 4th dimensional objects (possibly more) that exist eternally. Also, since a year is equal to just over 10 centimeters when your kid asks where grandma is, you can truthfully answer that she's not all that far away at all.

[Darth Wong]

Oh yeah, that's great advice: just give confusing answers by abusing scientific concepts in order to make seriously misleading statements. What a wonderful way to raise your kid.

[Coyote]

I have to admit, when the suggestion was made that "grandma's mind doesn't work any more" I could see a kid going all wide-eyed and say, "gramma's a zombie!?"

Heh.

[Darth Wong]

And, be prepared for a kid to grow up thinking "maybe there is something out there after all" and dabble in religion.

That's one of the reasons I think it's important to educate kids about many religions, and stress that there's no more reason to believe one than any other.

It's not a huge tragedy if kids grow up wanting to believe in something, as long as they understand how arbitrary this is. The big problem is when they believe in one particular religion and honestly think it's somehow more believable than all the others. That can lead to fundamentalism, and even if it doesn't, it's just really stupid.

[SCRawl]

My two girls have been raised without any religious influence, and it hasn't caused any problems yet. My wife's parents are both Catholics, and there was some minor friction when (a) we didn't get married in the usual Catholic manner, and (b) didn't get the girls baptized. Fortunately, the in-laws never gave me a hard time about it. (I say fortunate for them, because this is one area where I refuse to take any shit.)

The question about death has actually come up a few times: my eldest daughter -- who will turn five in August -- has asked why Mommy has a Mommy but Daddy doesn't. I simply told her that my Mommy died before she (my daughter, of course) was born, so she never got to meet her. A brief explanation of what being dead meant ensued, and that satisfied her.

As Mike pointed out, we live in a fairly plural society here, so I don't expect religion to be a big problem among their peers.

[Big Phil]

Oh yeah, that's great advice: just give confusing answers by abusing scientific concepts in order to make seriously misleading statements. What a wonderful way to raise your kid.

To your earlier "life's a bitch" point, I get the impression that people assume that because you're an atheist, you're a hardcore atheist and a bigtime asshole about it, as in, no Christmas, no Easter Bunny, nothing that kids would enjoy, just cold hard facts all the damned time. RAR!

I'm a atheist and have no intention of allowing people to force Christianity down my son's throat, but that doesn't mean he can't enjoy Christmas, Easter, and other "religious" holidays. We just enjoy them as family time instead - after all, what's wrong with Christmastime as the "Season of Giving?"

[SCRawl]

I'm a atheist and have no intention of allowing people to force Christianity down my son's throat, but that doesn't mean he can't enjoy Christmas, Easter, and other "religious" holidays. We just enjoy them as family time instead - after all, what's wrong with Christmastime as the "Season of Giving?"

This is my way of thinking, too. The J-word never has to be uttered even in these contexts.

[Imperial Overlord]

Christmas and Easter are just two holidays in my family (raised atheist). One involves presents and turkey and the other involves chocolate and egg hunts, but neither of the holidays is religious in any way. They're just family traditions.

[Darth Wong]

I'm a atheist and have no intention of allowing people to force Christianity down my son's throat, but that doesn't mean he can't enjoy Christmas, Easter, and other "religious" holidays. We just enjoy them as family time instead - after all, what's wrong with Christmastime as the "Season of Giving?"

This is my way of thinking, too. The J-word never has to be uttered even in these contexts.

My boys hear me say the word "Jesus" fairly often, but it generally happens when I'm in heavy traffic, not at Christmas. And it's usually accompanied by "Fucking Christ" to complete the expletive.

[Kanastrous]

DW, have you considered writing a book on the topic? Seriously, you sure appear to have the experience, judgment and intellect for it, and perhaps a lot of parents and their kids might benefit from your shared perspective...

[Oskuro]

Yeah, and I bet a lot of other parents will parade around his front door with signs claiming he's the antichrist

[Eulogy]

Mind you, we don't live in the US Deep South. People here don't get on your case about stuff like that when there are so many Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, and other assorted religions around. It's not like the US Deep South where you don't want to be the only kid in the class who's not Christian.

Mike isn't kidding about that, by the way.

If you do live in the Deep South or a similar place, it's better to lie about your beliefs than effectively risk getting regularly tortured, and to tell your kids to do the same. Make something up; you won't feel gulity about being a little dishonest to those bigoted rabid brainless amoral insane lemmings when the alternative is injury, suffering, and possibly death.

[Samuel]

Dammit, warn us about the content. That was distubing. Seriously, the least twisted part was Queeb discussing how to kill people without leaving behind evidence.

[Aaron]

I've decided that if my daughter asks any "why" questions, I'm going to give her factual answers to the best of my ability. "Why is the sky blue?" is because nitrogen in the atmosphere scatters blue light. "Where is granma?" is simply, "She died - her brain doesn't work anymore." To tell my child anything else would ultimately, I feel, be a disservice, even if it causes some emotional distress at the time - one of my goals in raising my daughter (and my other children, when they come) is to teach them how to handle the world as it actually is, instead of as they'd like it to be; a part of that is accepting that things exist they don't and won't like, and they have to figure out (I have to teach them) how to deal with that.

I'm an atheist and Mrs. K and I raise our children as such. The truth is fine but you better be prepared for some hard questions and to be able to phrase it in a manner that children can understand. It's somewhat of a process, building up to when you can give them unvarnished truth.

Of course there's always the old standby in the military "I don't know but I'll find out and get back to you", which I've had to employ more then once, cause it turns out that I actually wasn't sure why the sky was blue.

I've seen it happen-- be prepared for other little kids to go "you don't celebrate Christmas!?" "You don't believe in Jesus!? You're going to Hell!" "You're Gramma's in Hell being tortured by the Devil because you don't believe in Jesus!" It happens. Kids are mean. When your kid is surrounded by five or six other kids spouting silliness, the desire to fit in will erode at them.

And, be prepared for a kid to grow up thinking "maybe there is something out there after all" and dabble in religion.

My son is quite scornful of religion (that might be just trying to please dad) but my daughter has been expressing interest in attending church with her best friend and she wanted to go to bible camp this summer because the BF is going. I've told her that "no we won't go to church" and "no your not going to bible camp" which caused a bit of sadness but I think that's more because she won't get to spend time with her friend. She is more then free to do what she wants when she gets older and as long as she is happy, then that's fine but I'm certainly not going to encourage her, I actually try to do the opposite by illustrating to them how silly the entire concept is.

I have noticed that little girls are far more interested and swayed by the religious stuff then little boys.

[Patrick Degan]

So far with my own son, I'm taking the approach of answering his questions when they come up and otherwise not really talking religion at all. We don't bother with any religious ceremonials of any sort and my boy has not been baptised. He's had some exposure to religious ideas (living where we are at present, that's inevitable) but hasn't really given them a lot of attention (I think he sees it as some sort of game). He's seen one aunt die and has asked a question or two about death, but again he doesn't really seem to give it a lot of attention in his thinking. It's very much a play-it-by-ear situation for the time being.