Jedi/Dark Jedi vs Vampire from World of Darkness

[Darth_Shinji]

Actually, Yoda levels of power senses is beyond WoD. No matter the success, No one can sense people in other planetary system like yoda did. or a beginer like Luke did.
The Yoda's caine bane is more like a joke, Caine's powers are not described enough to have a argument about, it is more or less to mean he is the ante-diluvian Jedi, ok ?

Correct me if I'm wrong. But seansing only happens with other Jedi and people a Jedi knows personally. Completly useless on a stranger or non-force user.
And even the most powerful Jedi is still realativly fragile. They might be able to destroy a star but a nuke would kill them.

Obi-Wan sensed the bounty hunter that was behind him in AotC and cut of her arm. AFAIK, Obi didn't know the bounty hunter, nor was she a force user. Obi also sensed the deaths of all the people on Alderaan when it blew up and he was many lightyears away then.


A sith could just use Force Lightning on the vampire because Electrical is a form of Aggravated Damage, isn't it? The Jedi/Sith is also likely to resist all the psychic powers of the vampire, especially if it's a newly "embraced" vampire. All the Jedi have to do is to cut off the vampire's head, which should be too hard, the Jedi just uses his precog-abilities, sees where the vampire will be in a few moments, and put his lightsabre there.

He extended his seanses into the room to gaurd it. And the planet created a disturbance in the force and he was heading towards it and we have no idea how far away there were. Basacaly he is suggesting they search for this guy the've never seen before across a planet. I've never seen that done. And he is supernaturaly hiding himself anyway.

And no one dobts those powers would be fatal to a vampire. Its just the higher you go the more powerful your going to get. Masters of potence would be able to throw cars as an example. Fortitiude powers would help as well.

[lgot]

xiophen:

I do not know if you do not understand if meaning the caine was a joke again and that I am just showing that Jedi have powers beyond Mages and Mages can face vampires without problem.

but then I have to say:

Caine has every discipline and then some under his belt at full power and probably then some.

No one ever saw Caine's sheet to afirm this and I doubt he have every discipline. Not only there is disciplines devoleped when he was already far away or disciplines that make no sense to him to have any interest (Like Serpentis or Necromancy or disciplines like Bardo, Visseratika that have no place in his normal background). He probally have other own disciplines, but until then is silly to go making afirmations about someone without sheet.

Then what send the jedi out to hunt him down?

Because someone asked in topic ?

Caine would be virtually immune to everything the Jedi would throw at him see Ravnos example above.

I doubt so. Old Ferox would give Caine hard time because Caine is very affected by Faith after all.
And the ravnos example...
That screw up maximum ? I can think thousand ways of someone that have Chimestry to avoid a nuclear attack, I know another thousands to be sure that the Technocracy would never act that way. That was one of the worse plot line, Justin Achilli is far far away from the old develpers of White Wolf and that is the reason that I cut my colection and I only now follow Ethan Skemp Werewolf's stuff. How much I miss guys like Phil Brucatto and Ian Lemke...

a 2nd and 3rd gen would be simular to caine above.

No, they wouldnt. We have sittuations that a 3th generation was killed by lower generations (From Saulot, tzimisce who was defeated, Ashur, Brujah). With Caine that would be unlikely.

the only time a jdei would really stand a chance against vampires would be at arround gen 8 or 9ish when the bloods thin down almost completly.

Are you joking, aint ? I can build a starting sheet for a Changeling that can kill any vampire of such generation (Save special cases like Ferox). A Jedi would have no problem. Think well, a lightsaber is agraveted damage, it does more damage than normal melee weapons. The vampire must have a great deal of fortitude to survive hits of lightsaber.

How would the jedi's resist the vampire Mental powers?

The same way that anyone can do it. Jedi is trained to resist mental powers. A Mind Sphere can make you immune to that. The question is how the vampire would resist to Jedi's mental powers.

yes you have the One instance where a sith lord stops a mental powers but not all vampires Mental powers work that way they range from illusions, to emotional control.

Presence and Dominate works this way.
Chimestry ? The Jedi can make it useless by trying to detect the thoughts of the illusion and seeing it is not real for chimestry illusions have no mind.
Obfuscate ? It can be detected by detect thoughts of mage, it can by the force. Also Jedi's danger sense can detect it.

A combat vampire is going to be moving faster then you average jedi. and will be atacking using a variety of methods god help you with a supped up Brujah with a 3 or 4 celerity firing shots guns at you.

Variety of methods ? Variety of methods is when you face kalindo or Do.
Shot guns ? Not very helpful against jedi, right ?

Hell any Vamp whose learnt outside the Clans box is threat, what about facing a Giovanni, or a Samedi fight those wriths, and avoid the Samedi's Limb shrinking Touch....

Funny, you know ? A Wraith really powerful will never fall under Necromancy control, but that is a mistake done because the different developers of the system.
You really think the shrinking touch is more dangerous than a lightsaber that can kill when hit ? Or the Vampire kill in one attack the jedi or he is pretty much in trouble when the jedi starts

[lgot]

. Basacaly he is suggesting they search for this guy the've never seen before across a planet.

No, I am not.
Pleople should read, I do not even suggest a planet search.
I said a Jedi is version much superior to a mage. Someone claimed otherwise and Give this as example to how the "Mind" powers of Jedi are superior to anything mind power of mage can do, since the Jedi can sense people in other galaxy.
In another post someone talked about Yodo and I joked "Yoda is Caine's bane". When people said why I talked about this is a joke because Yoda is like antidilluvian Jedi. I never said "Because Yoda can locate caine or anything like this".

[Marcus]

Actually, ive yet to see or hear of a Jedi doing anything that a Magi couldnt, in a non-paradoxical setting.

In some cases multiple mastery might be required, but of all the WoD things, Magi very closely match Jedi, and vice-versa.

Ill stick to my earlier post on this topic... depends on the Jedi, and the Vampire.

[Evil Sadistic Bastard]

Lightning is *NOT* aggravated damge. Only if the soak roll botches then it becomes aggravated.

And I dare you to tell me Jedi have time control the way the True Brujah do. And have the Jedi demontstrated any ability similar to Auspex that would allow them to see through the godly Obfuscate of the Nictuku? (supreme stealth masters of the vampiric world - even if they leave traces behind those traces remove themselves)

But I agree that most high-generation vamps would be shredded. These are little more powerful than humans. But against a Tzimisce elder with vozhds, szlachtas and other crap to throw in the Jedi's way, who gets stronger the more you hurt him (Ecstatic Agony, Auspex Level 7), who can cause hideous disfiguration with the merest touch and bend a supernatural being's ribs right back to slash his heart open... I doubt the Jedi/Sith would survive.

[lgot]

Marcus:
Of course, depends the character. A jedi can do the same things a mage can, but the level of power of Jedi supress the Magi. As the example gave, Feeling someone else in another planetary system is way beyond the Mage's level who is very much limited to the planet.

Now about Obfuscate.
It can be seeing by the use of Mind, you know. If the jedi can detect and feel other's people emotions and thoughts can he can do that. That is no big deal because the Jedi can also cancel himself from others sense, like the way Palpatine is under Yoda's moustache and Yoda is unable to feel.
And to say one side have a power that other have not, is very nice, very fine. Both sides have, both sides are deadly, the better Jedi's being in level the face any specific methuselah and the methuselah being able to do face a good jedi as well.

[beyond hope]

Let's see here...

Looking at NPC vampires (which would represent "typical" levels of power:)

Neonate: 9th-13th (or higher!) Generation, Attributes 7/5/3, Abilities 13/9/3, Background 7, Virtues 10, Willpower 7, Disciplines 4

Ancilla: 7th-9th Generation, Attributes 9/6/4, Abilities 18/9/3, Background 7, Virtues 10, Willpower 8, Disciplines 6

Elder: 5th-7th Generation, Attributes 10/7/5, Abilities 21/9/3, Background 12, Virtues 6, Willpower 9, Disciplines 10

Methuselah: 4th or 5th Generation, Attributes 12/8/6, Abilities 24/12/7, Background 12, Virtues 6, Willpower 9, Disciplines 15

(source- Vampire: The Masquerade 2nd edition rulebook, p. 238)

So, at least according to the second edition rules, a typical Methuselah could theoretically have all 3 of their Clan disciplines at level 5.

P.176 of the same book. "During the day, especially after being awakened, you cannot roll more dice on any roll for any action than your character's rating in Humanity." Assuming an average Humanity score of 6 or 7, this will only be somewhat inhibiting. For the Leech with a low Humanity score (say, 3 or 4) it would be a death sentence.

Then we get to Disciplines. Potence is only going to help if you can get close enough to hit, and survive the Jedi's lightsaber. Celerity does not make Leeches faster than blaster bolts, which Jedi have already demonstrated the ability to parry and redirect successfully. Fortitude will be the only thing that could potentially save a Leech from staring up in shock at his own combat boots when his head comes off his shoulders. Dominate is heavily dependant on the target's willpower: anyone want to argue that Jedi are weak-willed? The same is true of Presence (the Jedi, after all, spend their whole lives training to control emotions like fear and rage.) Obfuscate works on the mind, not on the senses. Vicissitude (at least up to level 6 or so) requires touch: hard to do when both your arms have been severed.

Incidently, there's also the possibility that Jedi or Sith would have True Faith due to their connection with the Force

[Marcus]

Igot: Spirit 5. Covers that whole 'Deep Umbra' or, for the Technomancers in the Building 'Interstellar Space' bit.

Id say a top-flight Jedi Knight, Say your Mace Windu or your Skywalkers, would probably be a decent fight for a generic Methusalah. Certainly a Jedi's mind powers are going to give him a better chance than a baseline normal against the Cainite, but rember that Dominate, Presence Etc can and do work on Magi, other Cainites, etc... Magi and Cainites having powers of manipulation that are in some respects beyond what we see demonstrated in the movies by Jedi. (I am not cognizant of the details of the EU, and cannot speak to it).

Some detail work-

Reaction Speed, Combat-

Jedi consistently fail to display truely superhuman speed in combat. The reasons for this is unclear, given the ability of Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan to vanish into running superspeed in Ep 1. If we limit them to very fast human speeds in combat, we may as well close the thread, so we will grant them some degree of superhuman combat speed.

Cainites can potentially develop the ability to move 6 to 9 times as fast, in combat, as a Human Being. In the case of elders with comfortably superhuman physical attributes, this effect becomes stronger. Running speeds in excess of 300 MPH are not impossible, with a concomitant ability to control and direct the movement.

Edge-Cainite

Resilience-

Cainite-Starts high. (Ability to survive, at depleted combat potential, a 3 round burst from an AK 47 to center mass). Full recovery likely in under a minute. (this will however greatly exhaust said neonates reserve of Blood, the necessary fuel for many combat activities). This is a freshly embraced Neonate. Potentially stupidly high. With the right combination of Disciplines (most likely found on a Gangrel Elder) the Cainite has a fair chance of walking away from 120mm HEAT. At the Methusalah level, it potentially becomes much higher.

Jedi-I am given to understand that Jedi have varying degrees of ability in absorbing/redirecting energy. I am unaware of any instance of this being applied to physical trauma, though I am willing to grant that such an ability would seem likely. We have seen Vader reflect, absorb, etc. a Blaster Bolt capable of killing a human. We have also seen Jedi killed by the Blaster Bolts... perhaps it is a matter of the Jedi, or perhaps of volume of fire/Concentration of the Jedi. Nonetheless, it does not currently seem creditable that a Jedi could survive and continue to fight proficiently after being struck, center mass, by a 3 round burst from an AK-47. (I am aware that Jedi vary widely in personal abilities... if anyone has a display of a Jedi absorbing massive physical trauma, I would be interested. If this is a display of the Jedi getting hit and keeping going, rather than concetrating in some manner to counteract the force of the hit, I would be more interested.)

Edge-Cainite

Ability to Deal Damage-

Cainite- Broad Varaition here from 'little more than human' for a freshly embraced neontate to 'stick fist through front slope of Main Battle Tank' for an Elder with the appropriate disciplines. Maximium disciplinary limits of devesation (area of effect) seem to be limited to inducing city-wide anarchy and violence, hurricane force storms (note that this requires a Cathayan, rather than a Cainite), and localized, minor earthquakes and volcanoes.

Jedi- Personal level starts out very high indeed, and remains constant. Lightsabers. We have no closely calibrated numbers for the damage a Lightsaber can do, but I think it is not unreasonable (given its performace vs likely Supertech Material bulkheads) to assume that a Lightsaber could in fairly short order burn through the front slope of a modern MBT. In terms of area effects, allusions have been made to force storms of presumed high power, but I simply am not familiar with the material. Considering the way ive heard them spoke of, I will grant that this is destruction on a scale comfortably greater than a Hurricane.

Edge-Jedi

Mind Control, Perceptive Abilities, Stealth Abilities, etc....

Hard to Quantify, IMHO. (that and im getting tired). Edge in personal intensity to the Cainite (no Ventrue would ever need an interrogation droid. Leave a Ventrue Elder in a room with a subject for an evening, and the Ventrue would have a new best friend for life). Edge in scope of effect to Jedi (the infamous Emperor mindlink with massive military force).

I think in all of these matters, the above analysis holds true.. Jedi seem to be able to produce greater areas of effect, with Cainites managing a greater personal intensity of effect. (interestingly this fairly well paralells the behaviour of Magi vis a vis Cainites)

Edge-None. Just plain wierd.

Day-Night Controversy: Absolute edge to the Jedi during the day until the level of conflict escalates into high end elder-Methusalah ranks. Beings at that level can, and if they (and their players) are wise DO, seek out and utilize powers that offset their daytime limitations. Until that point, Cainites are terrorized, blinded, and burned by normal daylight, and many find their ability to perform at maximum levels drastically curtailed.

Edge-Jedi throughout most of the range of conflict.

Intangibles- Heros of Right armed with Glowing Swords and Strong in the Power of Balance vs. Damned, Mighty Lords of the Night.

Edge- Who cares, would make a hellva fight scene.

Authors Best Guess-

John Q Jedi Knight- Roughly equivalent to a combat-specilized Ancillae or low end Elder.

Top Notch Jedi (Maul. Mace.)- Roughly equivalent to a combat speciliazed High End Elder, or a Generic Methusalah. Likely more fexible than the Elder, and about on par with the Methusalah.

Force Users of Fear (Yoda. Palpatine)- About on par with a top-flight Methusalah, 5th Generation. Beings at this level of power are so personal in their development that real generalization is difficult. Its not a fight I'd want happening in a city I lived in.

Why I Dont Extend this into the 4th Generation and Above- In the White Wolf Canon, I am aware of only one 'in Module' defined appearance of a 4th Generation Cainite. As portrayed, the being was absolutely potent by comparison to the Player Characters (A group of not incapable Mid to High range Elders, gens in the 8th to 6th range). That is to say his abilities were defined simply as 'in any conflict, he wins automatically and without effort'. Whilst the aformetioned coiterie of Elders is certainly less capable than a Yoda or Palaptine, even taken together, they are not (by my analysis) sufficently less capable to render the conflict meaningless or not requiring effort on Palpatine's part. Ergo, the 4th Generation and those beyond it are beyond the SW power scale in terms of personal power. (this is not to argue that any Cainite could remain corporeal after a turbolaser blast, or any such equivalent sillyness.)

Comments welcome.

[beyond hope]

It really does depend on what sort of conflict we're picturing here: in a simple meeting engagement between X number of vampires and Y number of Jedi, I give the edge to the Jedi (unless we're doing something ridiculous like "500 Elder Sabbat vs. 1 Padawan with a heart problem.) However, if we're assuming that the Jedi are in a city vampire-hunting, Inquisition style, then I would give the edge to the Leeches. Vampires are supposed to be the master manipulators of the WOD, having had centuries to refine their craft at scheming and plotting. Going out in the street to duke it out with the Jedi would concede their biggest advantage. I'd expect them to send out waves of disposable cannon fodder such as agents of whatever mortal institutions the vampire in question has sway over, Dominated and/or blood-bound ghouls, and even their own Childer if necessary. There's also the classic "let's you and him fight" tactics, like steering the Jedi into the local werewolf caern or Technocracy lab. In that sort of battle, the Jedi would be slowly but surely ground down and destroyed, perhaps without even ever knowing their real opponent.

[Marcus]

Beyond... though You and I apparently disagree on the level of personal power availalbe to the Cainites (probably just a function of the stories weve been in... my PCs live in pissing-blood FEAR of the Elders in my STs chronicles) I will certainly conceed that no self-respecting elder would be seen duking it out in the streets with a Jedi. Good god, no. You dont LIVE long enough to have phenomenal personal power by USING it. Youve got a brain, right? Use that first. Potence is for when everything else fails.

[beyond hope]

Heh... if you've ever played Werewolf, you know where I'm getting the name "Leech" to refer to them and where my sympathies in the WOD lie. I have to admit that it's difficult to have a lot of respect for the combat prowess of vamps when the pack I led slaughtered so many of them (including a 7th generation Brujah Elder with Celerity and Potence of 6.) One thing I have a great respect for is the cunning of Leeches, and in any battle where Jedi have to contend with vampiric plotting and scheming they will most likely die. Palpatine would be a babe in the woods compared to the typical Primogen council in a Camarilla city.

[Marcus]

~nods~ The thing about Werewolf-Cainite fights is that their usually run by Werewolf games, against Cainite NPCs who are not quite the master-crafted instruments of death that a well designed Garou can be.

I have seen a single Cainite stand and deliver against three Packs, including a functional Sliver Pack.. but thats so far up at the top end of the Vampire power scale that Ill grant using it as an example distorts the perception of Vampire. At the end of the day, Werewolf is a 'lets kill shit' game, wereas Vampire is a 'lets manipulate, back-alley plot, and double-deal our 'friends' to death' game. Its unsuprising that Garou are more combat effective than Cainites... it just also never, ever pays to underestimate the POTENTIAL power of a Cainite given sufficient years and thickness of blood.

And I wouldnt sell Palpatine so short... that was at least a Ventrue Ancillae level plot.

[beyond hope]

It reminds me of an ongoing plotline in one of the games I ran: the guy in question had taken "Clan Enmity: Settites" as a starting flaw, not knowing that the Settites were a major opponent in my chronicle. He was assuming that they'd never crop up because it was a Camarilla campaign, and that if they did turn up he'd just shoot them. They turned up alright: first they kidnapped his neice (he'd taken the flaw Ward as well,) then they went to work on undermining the company he owned (by the time his character died, he was in trouble with the IRS and at least 4 other federal agencies.) Every week some new problem would turn up for him, all instigated by the Settites and all without him ever encountering one. He got so freaked out by it that at one point he nearly murdered a perfectly innocent professor in a library simply because the man was a historian who had an affectation for wearing egyptian jewelry.

Believe it or not, Werewolf games can get very political, particularly when you have several septs in an area that you have to deal with and all of them are composed of different tribes. The "kick ass first and forget about the questions" approach doesn't work so well when dealing with your fellow Garou, especially when you're trying to put together an alliance to cope with a severe infestation of Black Spiral Dancers in the area.

[Marcus]

Heh. Gooo team Settite.

Ive seen some good Garou Political games. Saw one good Garou Spiritual game...

[lgot]

Marcus:

Igot: Spirit 5. Covers that whole 'Deep Umbra' or, for the Technomancers in the Building 'Interstellar Space' bit.

heh, and what exactly the deep umbra represents ?

Certainly a Jedi's mind powers are going to give him a better chance than a baseline normal against the Cainite, but rember that Dominate, Presence Etc can and do work on Magi, other Cainites, etc...

Listen, I do not dismiss the mental powers. But someone said "how would the jedi resist the mental powers of the vampires". That is ridiculous, if there is a power that the Jedi have more chance to resist is the mental power. He is trained and developed to resist or control minds since the begining. That is exactly the kind of power that the Vampire would have less hope to use. When someone points out, lets say, Temporis or Taumaturgy then this someone is kicking rightly, those are powers that Jedi can not counter as easily.

Magi and Cainites having powers of manipulation that are in some respects beyond what we see demonstrated in the movies by Jedi. (I am not cognizant of the details of the EU, and cannot speak to it).

Sorry, I just thought some manipulative dude build up a galatic empire that in earth history (and therefore in WoD) have only close (keeping the proportions) to the Roman Empire who used, if you think in Vampire terms a whole bunch of Ventrues Methuselahs ?

Reaction Speed, Combat-

You are obviously either pushing up the Vampire chances and diminishing the Jedi.
Jedi can reflect energy attacks from close range, we see then doing this in the movie all the time. This reaction speed much much above the human.
And your example is fine (I have no patience to go and calculate the mph you said, I do not play GURPS after all, so I suppose you are right) it is the trait of a specific group of vampire. Not all of course (It was you ? ).So the dude who pointed depends on the character is right.

Resilience-

Cainite does not start high. Actually he gains weekness that no ordinary human have. And Unless he get Fortitude he starts with human level, except for the Blood points regeneration, which does not happen in one minute to him to get better (unless the third edition changed it, which i do not remember, nor I care much for that book ). But against a jedi the point is simple, the damage will be agravated. Against Agravated only vampires with Fortitude can deal about. If you do not have fortitude, then do not enter in combat. that is a pretty rule if you see Garous. Works well with Jedi. In Physical combat without fortitude with a jedi, the vmapire is better to avoid.

Well, Luke , a trainer, fought with Darth, got his hand cut, fall in the air duct and still concious. Darth lost his hand to luke, got lighting from the emperor and yet killed him. They have good resistence, dont them ?

Deal Damage:
A neonate ? Punch a fist ? It is needed 11 success to punch by one inch of steel. Its exagerate, but that does not come into the point. Both, if well build for combat can hit and kill in one shot. (One hit of course, claws and saber). I think we can assume it.

Mind:
This is for jedi. All jedi are trained to have great mind selfcontrol, without expection. They are all the peek. Not all vampires are in other hand. We have some with 10 of willpower, some with 6 of courage, etc, but they are not exactly the rule. It is fun to notice that a Mage is the only (I forget Wraith, I do not consider anything like Hunters, just the 5 original systems) character than have always a high willpower start. Vampires, Garous, Changelings can be from 1 to 5.

Roughly equivalent to a combat speciliazed High End Elder, or a Generic Methusalah. Likely more fexible than the Elder, and about on par with the Methusalah.

I know the sheet of a few 4th generation that have no hope but run away from someone like Mace or any good Jedi. The vampire may survive, but hardly outmaster a Jedi in battle. That goes for a lot of 5th and 6th generations sheets.
To be fair, I know sheet of 4th and even 6th generation Vampire that can stand up or deal with a Jedi like a bug. Like is said, it is relative on the character.

Why I Dont Extend this into the 4th Generation and Above- In the White Wolf Canon, I am aware of only one 'in Module' defined appearance of a 4th Generation Cainite.

Which one module ?
Let me see those who come up in my memory...Diablerie Britain there is Tiamat, her actions from Babylon to today are descripted, she can defeat and kill a lot of humans (extremely cool character) but she is in topor and the adventure is made to starting characters to try to do a diablerie of her. The odd part (it is old stuff, and smelled like a bit with the TSR adventures style) it is not well done. Not because of her, its not that hard to beat her. It is the traps in the way. No starting character have hope to finish it...
Diablerie Mexico have a 4th generation gangrel that any starting character would love to meet. Piece of cake. World of Darkness there is Mithras , there a pack of garous lose to him and acolytes the battle, he end in topor and a oportunist assamite get his neck. Russia there is Baba Yaga - Even she being extremelly powerful, She would better not face Jedis in Battle. Worse thing in the world they killed her. Kindred Most wanted there is Enkidu - which is the physically build Vampire more power ever made. And that is the funny thing, because he is the only one sheet that have all characteristics most people say all the vampires have. He can kill a pack of garous in one round, in combat, so He can hold his own against anyone. There is Kemitiri also, she kick ass, her impact is more in the manipulation side, she is a hard one. Chicago have Meneleus and Helena. He is a good fighter and she is not. Even so there is description of a battle they made there and she fought him in physical combat and there is a draw. I dunno how ^^. She stands no chance against a jedi unless she user her really good looks. In Berlim there is Neferiti. No chance. She is too week. There is Shaitan in Chaos Factor in Mexico. He tops everyone, the single most powerfull character ever to have a sheet (unless you consider things in Umbra like Gabriel or Nubarus). He cause a earthquake, ignored really good chracters, do what he want. Maninly because this 4th generations is rank 9 demonist kicking ass from Hell. Not even the top of others things, Hidden King of Changeling, The Black Man or Medeia from Mage would stand him i think. He would make the hell of jedi for sure. There is more I ma sure, but this post got too bigger and my memory to little, but this is already a good list of 4th generations vampires, some can be beat , some dont.

[Marcus]

Marcus:

Quote:
Igot: Spirit 5. Covers that whole 'Deep Umbra' or, for the Technomancers in the Building 'Interstellar Space' bit.



heh, and what exactly the deep umbra represents ?

Im not certain what you mean here... I was only maintaining that Magi with the right paradigm have access to deep space, thus matching the ranges for Jedi.


Quote:
Certainly a Jedi's mind powers are going to give him a better chance than a baseline normal against the Cainite, but rember that Dominate, Presence Etc can and do work on Magi, other Cainites, etc...


Listen, I do not dismiss the mental powers. But someone said "how would the jedi resist the mental powers of the vampires". That is ridiculous, if there is a power that the Jedi have more chance to resist is the mental power. He is trained and developed to resist or control minds since the begining. That is exactly the kind of power that the Vampire would have less hope to use. When someone points out, lets say, Temporis or Taumaturgy then this someone is kicking rightly, those are powers that Jedi can not counter as easily.

Agreed. A Jedi has much better odds against Dominate and Presence than he does against Thaumaturgy, Temporis, etc. I was merely maintaining that better odds were not synonymous with immunity.

Quote:
Magi and Cainites having powers of manipulation that are in some respects beyond what we see demonstrated in the movies by Jedi. (I am not cognizant of the details of the EU, and cannot speak to it).


Sorry, I just thought some manipulative dude build up a galatic empire that in earth history (and therefore in WoD) have only close (keeping the proportions) to the Roman Empire who used, if you think in Vampire terms a whole bunch of Ventrues Methuselahs ?

I was referrening to disciplinary powers, as I thought was clear. The potential of presence and dominate, one on one, seem to go a bit beyond whats displayed in terms of Jedi mental powers.

Quote:
Reaction Speed, Combat-



You are obviously either pushing up the Vampire chances and diminishing the Jedi.
Jedi can reflect energy attacks from close range, we see then doing this in the movie all the time. This reaction speed much much above the human.
And your example is fine (I have no patience to go and calculate the mph you said, I do not play GURPS after all, so I suppose you are right) it is the trait of a specific group of vampire. Not all of course (It was you ? ).So the dude who pointed depends on the character is right.

300 MPH requires a low generation cainite with high celerity, and the willingness to spend significant blood for dex.

Certainly we have seen Jedi preposition their lightsabers or simply reach out with the force and bounce blaster bolts. What we have not seen a Jedi do is move so quickly that the eye cannot follow (barring the disengagement from Ep.1). Yoda is stunningly fast in Ep2, but I have yet to see any Jedi move faster, in battle, on camera, than Bruce Lee in 'Enter the Dragon'. That mans speed with a high kick is astounding. Assuming Bruce Lee represents a reasonable portion of the top end of human physical martial prowess, I couldnt see my way to giving a Jedi more than an extra action or two per round.

Quote:
Resilience-



Cainite does not start high. Actually he gains weekness that no ordinary human have. And Unless he get Fortitude he starts with human level, except for the Blood points regeneration, which does not happen in one minute to him to get better (unless the third edition changed it, which i do not remember, nor I care much for that book ). But against a jedi the point is simple, the damage will be agravated. Against Agravated only vampires with Fortitude can deal about. If you do not have fortitude, then do not enter in combat. that is a pretty rule if you see Garous. Works well with Jedi. In Physical combat without fortitude with a jedi, the vmapire is better to avoid.

Well, Luke , a trainer, fought with Darth, got his hand cut, fall in the air duct and still concious. Darth lost his hand to luke, got lighting from the emperor and yet killed him. They have good resistence, dont them ?

There were some changes in 3rd ed... in this case the fact that the cainite, unlike a normal human, can soak damage from firearms. I certainly grant that the Jedi in question are tougher than a typical human being... what I am unwilling to grant is that they can take an M16 to the chest and continue to go forth and kick ass. Weve just never seen them shake off that kind of trauma.

Im well aware of the Aggravated nature of the Lightsaber, and deal with that in the next section.

Deal Damage:
A neonate ? Punch a fist ? It is needed 11 success to punch by one inch of steel. Its exagerate, but that does not come into the point. Both, if well build for combat can hit and kill in one shot. (One hit of course, claws and saber). I think we can assume it.

I again you confuse me, here... I assumed I made it clear that only a Brujah Elder could manage the aformentioned antitank blow. Still grant the field to Jedi, for the 'offensive force' category.

Mind:
This is for jedi. All jedi are trained to have great mind selfcontrol, without expection. They are all the peek. Not all vampires are in other hand. We have some with 10 of willpower, some with 6 of courage, etc, but they are not exactly the rule. It is fun to notice that a Mage is the only (I forget Wraith, I do not consider anything like Hunters, just the 5 original systems) character than have always a high willpower start. Vampires, Garous, Changelings can be from 1 to 5.

Again, granted. You are right, its only magi who run to high willpower, making them quite resistant to Dominate. Presence rarely works against a WP target number...



Quote:
Roughly equivalent to a combat speciliazed High End Elder, or a Generic Methusalah. Likely more fexible than the Elder, and about on par with the Methusalah.


I know the sheet of a few 4th generation that have no hope but run away from someone like Mace or any good Jedi. The vampire may survive, but hardly outmaster a Jedi in battle. That goes for a lot of 5th and 6th generations sheets.
To be fair, I know sheet of 4th and even 6th generation Vampire that can stand up or deal with a Jedi like a bug. Like is said, it is relative on the character.

Quote:
Why I Dont Extend this into the 4th Generation and Above- In the White Wolf Canon, I am aware of only one 'in Module' defined appearance of a 4th Generation Cainite.


Which one module ?
Let me see those who come up in my memory...Diablerie Britain there is Tiamat, her actions from Babylon to today are descripted, she can defeat and kill a lot of humans (extremely cool character) but she is in topor and the adventure is made to starting characters to try to do a diablerie of her. The odd part (it is old stuff, and smelled like a bit with the TSR adventures style) it is not well done. Not because of her, its not that hard to beat her. It is the traps in the way. No starting character have hope to finish it...
Diablerie Mexico have a 4th generation gangrel that any starting character would love to meet. Piece of cake. World of Darkness there is Mithras , there a pack of garous lose to him and acolytes the battle, he end in topor and a oportunist assamite get his neck. Russia there is Baba Yaga - Even she being extremelly powerful, She would better not face Jedis in Battle. Worse thing in the world they killed her. Kindred Most wanted there is Enkidu - which is the physically build Vampire more power ever made. And that is the funny thing, because he is the only one sheet that have all characteristics most people say all the vampires have. He can kill a pack of garous in one round, in combat, so He can hold his own against anyone. There is Kemitiri also, she kick ass, her impact is more in the manipulation side, she is a hard one. Chicago have Meneleus and Helena. He is a good fighter and she is not. Even so there is description of a battle they made there and she fought him in physical combat and there is a draw. I dunno how ^^. She stands no chance against a jedi unless she user her really good looks. In Berlim there is Neferiti. No chance. She is too week. There is Shaitan in Chaos Factor in Mexico. He tops everyone, the single most powerfull character ever to have a sheet (unless you consider things in Umbra like Gabriel or Nubarus). He cause a earthquake, ignored really good chracters, do what he want. Maninly because this 4th generations is rank 9 demonist kicking ass from Hell. Not even the top of others things, Hidden King of Changeling, The Black Man or Medeia from Mage would stand him i think. He would make the hell of jedi for sure. There is more I ma sure, but this post got too bigger and my memory to little, but this is already a good list of 4th generations vampires, some can be beat , some dont.

Thank you for bringing back alot of memories... your right, White Wolf has done an awful lot of 4th Gens, hasnt it? An awful, awful lot. I suppose my memory was scarred by the most recent example... the appearance of Etrius that resulted in the extermination of the Tremere Antitribu. Granted that at that point Etrius was the vessel of Tremere, but the fact remains that he was described as statless.


I suppose what it really all comes down to is the games youve been in, and the angle the ST's took on things.[/quote]

[lgot]

Im not certain what you mean here... I was only maintaining that Magi with the right paradigm have access to deep space, thus matching the ranges for Jedi.

Well, actually any magi with enough umbral lore and dots in spirit can do it, but see, the Deep Umbra is a representation of the universe and just to track someone (or feel someone) in the first lawyers which represent something alike the solar system you need about 20 success in the roll. Do you see, Luke could feel the danger of friends in the second movie when he was training (not even a jedi yet) hundred of stellar systems away. The can go there, but not match this awesome show of potence in this matter.

I was referrening to disciplinary powers, as I thought was clear. The potential of presence and dominate, one on one, seem to go a bit beyond whats displayed in terms of Jedi mental powers.

Well, I would consider that Palpatine manipulation is a result of his "jedi" powers, but if not, then why to bother ? That would show that without any power he already made a similar result. Why to develop special power to something you are able to just normally ?

Certainly we have seen Jedi preposition their lightsabers or simply reach out with the force and bounce blaster bolts.

Which is a result of their techiniques and powers. That is speed, they are taking actions faster than human normal actions. Also they have all that precognitve powers they use (and we do not see actually any effect, but we know they are really as this was a explanation to Anakin's great piloting skills).
I would think someone, maybe I am wrong, the force is described as something that is in every living being, right ? Even with that Obi-wan mentor ghost, is possible that direct use of force against a vampire would not work just for him been a vampire. But since I always thought that would be a hack and slash sittuation for the jedi, that would not change much, but could be a possibility...

I again you confuse me, here... I assumed I made it clear that only a Brujah Elder could manage the aformentioned antitank blow. Still grant the field to Jedi, for the 'offensive force' category.

ah, my mistake, yes, Those post became too long sometimes ^^

the appearance of Etrius that resulted in the extermination of the Tremere Antitribu. Granted that at that point Etrius was the vessel of Tremere, but the fact remains that he was described as statless.

So bad this story, I still prefer the version made in The Masquerade of Red Death Triology, even because there is really good characters there...

[Marcus]

20 Successes? Your Storyteller really doesnt like Mages much, does he?


Hmm... how fast DO you maintain that Jedi move, in combat? IE, how much Celerity do you think theyve displayed in the movies? Give examples. Im not disputing you (yet) but want to see what your opinion is here and what you base it on.

As for Jedi using the Force direction on the Cainite... I dont want to get into the stupid 'Life Effects dont work on Vampires, you need Life+Matter'... I think its safe to assume that as supernatural beings supported by concentrated human life force (vitae) that Cainites would be, barring counterthaum, high willpower, etc. etc. etc. every bit as vulnerable to the Force as they are to Mages.

RE: Masque of the Red Death vs Later Stuff...

While I never could really buy that extremely young preternaturally lethal Cainite Assassin in the the Masque of the Red Death stuff, and while that 'Deceptio' discipline was mindnumbingly stupid... the idea of a manipulator behind Goratirx/Tremre, and that manipulator being in fact a Childe of Saulot who wanted to be rid of Saulot struck me as quite cool, and on the whole I found the thing well written. I wish Splathagen was still calling the WoD shots, rather than his bastardized, latter-day descendants.

[lgot]

20 Successes? Your Storyteller really doesnt like Mages much, does he?

well, just think, how much is needed to cover all earth ?

Hmm... how fast DO you maintain that Jedi move, in combat? IE, how much Celerity do you think theyve displayed in the movies? Give examples. Im not disputing you (yet) but want to see what your opinion is here and what you base it on.

Well, actually is pretty hard to think in game terms with extra actions. I would say 2,3, I think we see Obiwan and his master deflecting back more than one shot of the robots at once...
But I think also speed is not a matter of only more actions but reflexes and perhaps this jedi skill have more to do with reflexes and precognitions, which may only gave them for example, better iniciative.

As for Jedi using the Force direction on the Cainite... I dont want to get into the stupid 'Life Effects dont work on Vampires, you need Life+Matter'... I think its safe to assume that as supernatural beings supported by concentrated human life force (vitae) that Cainites would be, barring counterthaum, high willpower, etc. etc. etc. every bit as vulnerable to the Force as they are to Mages.

I dunno. Of course that was made to bring balance to the game and you may think this is stupid because the vampire still have spirit (so spirit should work alone as well) and is affected by time, forces, etc...
Overall I think we leave this free, even because we abuse of crossover and when you do that with Garous and Changeling, world would go mad with needing spirit to do anything with them.

While I never could really buy that extremely young preternaturally lethal Cainite Assassin in the the Masque of the Red Death stuff, and while that 'Deceptio' discipline was mindnumbingly stupid...

You mean, Magdeline Giovanni ? I was fine with her, but kind liked more some others characters...But if you mean Flavia I liked her teasing whole (even if yeah, she was too good, should have been made like a elder), I liked Dire McCann and Anis, The Walter Holmes Inconnu dude and Phamtomas. I also liked the "pop-star cameo apperances" of things like Mammonides or Etrius, Tremere, Karl Schreck (bit disapointed not to see a signal of Marcus Vitel, a quite cool concept) and Horus. I also liked the climated of Baba Yaga coming with Nicktuku. Well done i think.
But really the disciplines powers seemed a bit silly (i think he wanted to make a book without over use of discipline) and I am my friends still laugh to think "Body of Fire" is so easy to be make by a average Changeling...

the idea of a manipulator behind Goratirx/Tremre, and that manipulator being in fact a Childe of Saulot who wanted to be rid of Saulot struck me as quite cool, and on the whole I found the thing well written. I wish Splathagen was still calling the WoD shots, rather than his bastardized, latter-day descendants.

I liked the idea a lot also. And The final is really good after all. Good book for a Jyhad idea and quite good for even fresh players, since it is all every explained about almost everything vampiric. I liked also how he was able to put the methuselahs in danger without reducing their powers but without making the plot look a "piece of cake".
I wish also...I miss Phil Bruccato a lot , Ian Lemke...I mean, all that atomic bomb in India, Killing Baba Yaga, All Ravnos, Making Spirit Useless, having to end Wraith the way they did...cmom, all seems to be basead on "Lets do something huge to impress"...I miss good old times

[Marcus]

Hmm... my last heavy play of Mage was first ed. Its my understanding that by third ed theyve been reduced to slightly-more-impressive Hedge Mages.

But then again, Stuart Weick was brilliant... the current hack... ~sigh~

We may never agree on WW vs SW HTH... but I think we can agree that both have gone downhill, in writing, over the years...

[xiophen]

20 Successes? Your Storyteller really doesnt like Mages much, does he?


Hmm... how fast DO you maintain that Jedi move, in combat? IE, how much Celerity do you think theyve displayed in the movies? Give examples. Im not disputing you (yet) but want to see what your opinion is here and what you base it on.

IN TPM they when obi and qui gon are speeding down the trade fed ship thats probably at best maybe 2 or 3 times with maybe a point of obsfucate.

In combat I have yet to see any thing beyond a single point in celerity.

By the way a 4th gen vampire can have level 9 in a discipline most generic 4th gen vamps I have seen as NPC and pcs have 7-9 points in a number of diciplines.

As for Jedi using the Force direction on the Cainite... I dont want to get into the stupid 'Life Effects dont work on Vampires, you need Life+Matter'... I think its safe to assume that as supernatural beings supported by concentrated human life force (vitae) that Cainites would be, barring counterthaum, high willpower, etc. etc. etc. every bit as vulnerable to the Force as they are to Mages.

Depends on what your trying to do. rip a vampire apart? your going to need a good level at least 2 - 3 in each to be assured a chance to rip said vampire apart considering the effort it be easy to slash them with a light saber. The biggest problem with jedi is in the movies we see them struggling to lift objects and at best we hardly every see them displaying anything that would put them on the level with a bruijah, let alone a lupine or a mage of ther akashic brotherhood. yoda is the only one who did anything impresive enough to earn any real stats in ATOC. And given the rather poor display of mind attacks in the movies youd have to qwonder how strong the jedi/sith mind abilities are. In the books they get power boosts but even then only a select few would be nasty enough to harm higher level creatures in WOD.

RE: Masque of the Red Death vs Later Stuff...

While I never could really buy that extremely young preternaturally lethal Cainite Assassin in the the Masque of the Red Death stuff, and while that 'Deceptio' discipline was mindnumbingly stupid... the idea of a manipulator behind Goratirx/Tremre, and that manipulator being in fact a Childe of Saulot who wanted to be rid of Saulot struck me as quite cool, and on the whole I found the thing well written. I wish Splathagen was still calling the WoD shots, rather than his bastardized, latter-day descendants.

white wolf has some real bad background control though . they let too many interns write and rewrite the background with very limited control.

[xiophen]

Hmm... my last heavy play of Mage was first ed. Its my understanding that by third ed theyve been reduced to slightly-more-impressive Hedge Mages.

But then again, Stuart Weick was brilliant... the current hack... ~sigh~

We may never agree on WW vs SW HTH... but I think we can agree that both have gone downhill, in writing, over the years...

Mages are still nasty they just have top be real clever. the reason was to reign them in from the silliness that they got to in 2nd ed.

As for WW V SW in HH your any thing you throw at the higher levels of any WOD game from sw will get their butts kicked 9 times out of 10.

[Skelron]

Look I'll end the whole Caine Point, here and now, No man can touch Caine in a threatning manner or else GOD, Yahweh, (Who does exist in the WOD) will lay down the proverbial smack down on that person, so we arelimited to a perhaps the Female Jedi, but that takes out Yoda, Mace, Palpatine and all the known high range Jedi, and the rest are easily Cannon Fodder.

[Marcus]

While biblically appropois, Skelron, im not sure that the 'Mark of Caine' is enforced in WW, and thus may not translate to this debate.

Its always been tacitly assumed within the WW system that (assuming Caine exists) hes so many orders of magnitude beyond the player characters that no meaningful conflict is possible.

[xiophen]

While biblically appropois, Skelron, im not sure that the 'Mark of Caine' is enforced in WW, and thus may not translate to this debate.

Its always been tacitly assumed within the WW system that (assuming Caine exists) hes so many orders of magnitude beyond the player characters that no meaningful conflict is possible.

Actually it was assumed that antedeluvians were on that scale and that caine was in reference on that scale to antedeluvians.