Dozens of U.S. cities to raze themselves

[Balrog]

Have you been watching too many movies or spent you childhood in front of a computer/tv? Yeah, there is crime, but it can't be like you describe it at all. Way to use every possible stereotype imaginable, and some stuff, like "ambush a rival gang member' and "hide from the police" is just moronic

No, there is crime like that. In Detroit, there are areas you simply do not go unless you are part of a large group, preferably armed. Those stereotypes absolutely fit the kind of crime that goes on in this city.

As to the OP, plans like this have been brought up previously about how to turn Detroit into something other than a shithole. But as others have said, one of the big hurdles are people's pride. No one wants to admit that the city has lost its position among American cities, and any suggestion to improve it that matches reality gets shot down. Hell, the city council threw a fit when it was suggested that Cobo Hall be governed by a regional authority in exchange for money to fix up its crumbling walls.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Have you been watching too many movies or spent you childhood in front of a computer/tv? Yeah, there is crime, but it can't be like you describe it at all. Way to use every possible stereotype imaginable, and some stuff, like "ambush a rival gang member' and "hide from the police" is just moronic

What the feth? Which corner of the world have you been living? Have you ever been mugged right in the middle of a housing estate before? I have, and I can assure you, the police in the place where I was mugged, i.e. College Park, MD, are pretty impotent in the face of crime which happens at far less frequency than in some of the shit holes in Detroit.

[RedImperator]

Have you been watching too many movies or spent you childhood in front of a computer/tv? Yeah, there is crime, but it can't be like you describe it at all. Way to use every possible stereotype imaginable, and some stuff, like "ambush a rival gang member' and "hide from the police" is just moronic

Hey, fuckwit: I've actually worked in neighborhoods like that, and taught the kids who live in them. Get back to me when you've actually taught an 11th grade class where half the girls were pregnant and the other half have gang signs branded into their wrists, and sometimes the boys miss class because they got shot in a turf war. Come to Philadelphia sometime. I'll show you the sights in my old workplace's catchment, like the crackhouse where ten people were murdered in a gang raid, the alley behind the school where a student took a bullet because he's from Parkside and was caught walking through Landsdown territory, or the armed teenagers who have to escort their younger siblings home to protect them from other armed teenagers. And that's not even the worst neighborhood in the city.

But hey, you obviously know better than me. I only have firsthand experience, whereas you're some third rate Internet jerkoff who knows it "can't be" like how I describe it because you say so.

[Broomstick]

Have you been watching too many movies or spent you childhood in front of a computer/tv? Yeah, there is crime, but it can't be like you describe it at all. Way to use every possible stereotype imaginable, and some stuff, like "ambush a rival gang member' and "hide from the police" is just moronic

What sparkling pixie-dust utopia did YOU grow up in, that you are so fucking naive as to think this sort of thing doesn't exist? Seriously, where do you live? If you're from outside the US I'll give you a pass (this time) but if you're an American and you believe that you have your head up your ass.

[FSTargetDrone]

Hey, fuckwit: I've actually worked in neighborhoods like that, and taught the kids who live in them. Get back to me when you've actually taught an 11th grade class where half the girls were pregnant and the other half have gang signs branded into their wrists, and sometimes the boys miss class because they got shot in a turf war. Come to Philadelphia sometime. I'll show you the sights in my old workplace's catchment, like the crackhouse where ten people were murdered in a gang raid, the alley behind the school where a student took a bullet because he's from Parkside and was caught walking through Landsdown territory, or the armed teenagers who have to escort their younger siblings home to protect them from other armed teenagers. And that's not even the worst neighborhood in the city.

This is getting a bit OT, but he should take a look at Louis Theroux's Law and Disorder in Philadelphia which was talked about elsewhere on this board. And Philadelphia is in a much better place than Detroit.

Getting back to Detroit, just look at Detroit Blog, particularly the older archives. A quick start are the August, October and November entires from 2003. There are photographs (inside and outside) of large buildings and high-rises in the city proper standing empty and shuttered. There is a lot more in that blog about it, and elsewhere on the web. The writer talks about exploring all kinds of abandoned structures, encountering the homeless, finding caches of drug paraphernalia and even seeing packs of wild dogs in and around the city. And on and on.

[Straha]

Considering the amount of hurricanes there are in the US, you'd think they'd make their houses of something more than wood/cheap wallboard. I was always amazed that a little wind can take off a house

Well, ever since Hurricane Martin took out Detroit, Chicago, Los Angeles and Boston in one week, followed in the next two weeks by Hurricane Norma and Hurricane Rodriguez, most Americans have taken to the attitude of "Easier to save money now so we'll have more money after the next Hurricane hits!" This was actually federally mandated by George Bush in the Federal Urban Construction Knowledge To Help Ensure People's Ongoing Operational Residencies act of 2003 (it's better known by its acronym.)

Or, as someone with even a rudimentary knowledge of geography could tell you, the United States is fucking HUGE, most of the country lives hundreds (if not thousands) of miles away from even the farthest ranging Hurricanes. Further, because the U.S. is god damned ginormous, building styles differ noticeably in different places. Case in point: I'm from New York City, most buildings in the city are made out of Brick, Stone or Concrete, there are very very very few houses made solely out of wood with cheap siding. By contrast in the upstate New York towns I've lived in most houses are built out of wood in a semi-standard "Two Story" plan. However, in Texas (in my experience) second stories are incredibly rare, as are basements. Most houses are done single story in a Ranch style house. And that's just three parts of the country.

[Memnon]

<snip pics>

Alright, I concede the point.
Sorry for taking so long to reply, I had an orientation -_-;;

[The Yosemite Bear]

why do I think of the nano-bomb from Civ call to power....

[phongn]

Considering the amount of hurricanes there are in the US, you'd think they'd make their houses of something more than wood/cheap wallboard. I was always amazed that a little wind can take off a house

They do in hurricane-prone areas: my parent's house is built out of reinforced concrete.

Have you been watching too many movies or spent you childhood in front of a computer/tv? Yeah, there is crime, but it can't be like you describe it at all. Way to use every possible stereotype imaginable, and some stuff, like "ambush a rival gang member' and "hide from the police" is just moronic

You sound like you don't live in the US: with respect, how much do you know about the country?

[weemadando]

Those abandoned places must be a paradise for kids to grow up in. So much adventure can be found in abandoned buildings. All that kids nowadays know is their room, music, and xbox

Oh yeah. You never know what treasures you'll find in an abandoned house in a dying city. Piles of dirty needles, perhaps. Or drunk hobos. Maybe a crack den. If they're real lucky, they'll have an adventure, like getting trapped in a fire set by an arsonist or falling through a hole left by a scavenger or getting caught in a gunfight when one gang raids another gang's crackhouse. And when they get a little older, the boys can play "Hide from the police", which is like jailbreak, except if you get caught, you go to actual jail, and "Ambush a rival gang member" in them, which is like tag, except with guns. Sometimes the girls play along, too, but some of them prefer "give head for drugs", a perennial favorite. Course, you know how it is with girls. They get to be teenagers and they lose interest in the rough-and-tumble; a lot of them prefer to stay home and play "have a baby before graduating high middle school". That game's real popular.

Definitely the worst place in the first world a great place to be a kid.

Have you been watching too many movies or spent you childhood in front of a computer/tv? Yeah, there is crime, but it can't be like you describe it at all. Way to use every possible stereotype imaginable, and some stuff, like "ambush a rival gang member' and "hide from the police" is just moronic

I totally agree - growing up the entire interior of our block was a mix old trees and "lost" and overgrown gardens (the entire block used to be owned by hte church so I imagine that the interior probably had a lot of market garden type stuff) as well as overgrown and falling apart sheds and other small structures.

It was a goddamn paradise for a kid.

I also spent a lot of time playing in abandoned industrial estates which adjoined my father's workshop. The warehouses, old metal shops and joineries etc were mostly vacant with a few remaining business' scattered about - the most fun one was an old scrap yard which a really good family friend used to run. It was interesting - probably marginally dangerous, but it's part of being a kid.

Oh yeah - and times molested by a pederast hobo with a AIDS infected syringe hiding from the police - 0.

[Darth Wong]

Have you been watching too many movies or spent you childhood in front of a computer/tv? Yeah, there is crime, but it can't be like you describe it at all. Way to use every possible stereotype imaginable, and some stuff, like "ambush a rival gang member' and "hide from the police" is just moronic

You sound like you don't live in the US: with respect, how much do you know about the country?

Before I visited the US, I wouldn't have believed any of that stuff either. The first time I visited Detroit, I was seriously in a state of shock for a while. I honestly thought that blighted crime-ridden urban landscapes like that were a Hollywood invention.

[CaptainChewbacca]

There's a REASON that they figured by the time of Robo-Cop that Detroit would be a broken dystopia of lawlessness.

[The Yosemite Bear]

does that mean that New York and Los Angeles are going to become maximum security prisons?

[RedImperator]

Oh yeah - and times molested by a pederast hobo with a AIDS infected syringe hiding from the police - 0.

Relevance to a discussion about the dangers of exploring abandoned sections of an American city - also zero.

[ExarKun]

Have you been watching too many movies or spent you childhood in front of a computer/tv? Yeah, there is crime, but it can't be like you describe it at all. Way to use every possible stereotype imaginable, and some stuff, like "ambush a rival gang member' and "hide from the police" is just moronic

You sound like you don't live in the US: with respect, how much do you know about the country?

Before I visited the US, I wouldn't have believed any of that stuff either. The first time I visited Detroit, I was seriously in a state of shock for a while. I honestly thought that blighted crime-ridden urban landscapes like that were a Hollywood invention.

I totally agree - growing up the entire interior of our block was a mix old trees and "lost" and overgrown gardens (the entire block used to be owned by hte church so I imagine that the interior probably had a lot of market garden type stuff) as well as overgrown and falling apart sheds and other small structures.

It was a goddamn paradise for a kid.

I also spent a lot of time playing in abandoned industrial estates which adjoined my father's workshop. The warehouses, old metal shops and joineries etc were mostly vacant with a few remaining business' scattered about - the most fun one was an old scrap yard which a really good family friend used to run. It was interesting - probably marginally dangerous, but it's part of being a kid.

Oh yeah - and times molested by a pederast hobo with a AIDS infected syringe hiding from the police - 0.

Yeah, when you're a kid, this stuff is incredible, it's like some people on here missed out on a good portion of their childhood. I had it like you, but I grew up in a war zone as a "bonus". There is nothing like it, scavenging around, exploring little areas and hideouts, going into gardens up in the hills around the city and stealing fruit, looking for stuff, hanging out with friends, making martial arts weapons out of random crap, playing all kinds of games, when you get little older may be banging a girl or two . Today's electronic generation is too soft and devoid of any real substance. I remember once when my friends and I went into a building under construction that was abandoned when the war started. The guy that was a guard there started chasing us half way up the stairs, threatening to kill us, and yelling all kinds of curses our way. When we got to the top floor (may be 6th?), there was nowhere else to go, so some of us were about to jump down the side of the building from one scaffolding to the other, but the other guys couldn't so we decided to stay and fight together. Now I realize the stupidity of both decisions, but luckily, he ended up letting us go, but the sheer fear and excitement of the moment and others like it is unmatched by anything kids have nowadays. They are locked up in their little pretty neighborhoods, with pretty malls, with fully equipped rooms, and have no clue on what compass side the Sun comes up, nor what a real friendship is..

To answer Phongn, I'm not from US, but I'm here now, and being poor I have lived next to two bad neighborhoods, near-abandoned towns that have shootings almost every night, but in the day, it's ok. I'm not denying that there are horrific places, but RedImperator made it sound like whenever there is an abandoned building, big bad crime magically appears there overnight, and people, especially little 8 year olds who wanted to explore, either die or become criminals themselves and go playing run from the cops or whatever he said to that effect. Ridiculous.

[phongn]

To answer Phongn, I'm not from US, but I'm here now, and being poor I have lived next to two bad neighborhoods, near-abandoned towns that have shootings almost every night, but in the day, it's ok. I'm not denying that there are horrific places, but RedImperator made it sound like whenever there is an abandoned building, big bad crime magically appears there overnight, and people, especially little 8 year olds who wanted to explore, either die or become criminals themselves and go playing run from the cops or whatever he said to that effect. Ridiculous.

Sadly enough, no, it's not ridiculous in the worse places of the US. It's not that big-bad crime magically appears overnight, it's that the places have become absolutely crime-ridden over the span of decades and it's pervasive.

[Broomstick]

...and people, especially little 8 year olds who wanted to explore, either die or become criminals themselves and go playing run from the cops or whatever he said to that effect. Ridiculous.

Not ridiculous. I was 11 years old the first time someone shot at me. Nor was it the last time. And I lived in the fuckin' suburbs, not Detroit proper. That was over 30 years ago, arguably it's gotten worse. We didn't even have the excuse of living in a war zone, either, at least not in the normal sense of the word. A lot of young kids get killed in US cities because of that bullshit every year. It's not just about guns, either - there are stabbings, beatings, and last year Chicago had several acid-throwing attacks.

I still think you're naively uninformed, or willfully blind. No, it's not that bad everywhere but there are certainly places that it IS that bad!

[Ziggy Stardust]

To answer Phongn, I'm not from US, but I'm here now, and being poor I have lived next to two bad neighborhoods, near-abandoned towns that have shootings almost every night, but in the day, it's ok. I'm not denying that there are horrific places, but RedImperator made it sound like whenever there is an abandoned building, big bad crime magically appears there overnight, and people, especially little 8 year olds who wanted to explore, either die or become criminals themselves and go playing run from the cops or whatever he said to that effect. Ridiculous.

Out of curiosity, what bad neighborhoods did you live in? I don't claim to have a lot of experience with crime, but I have had some horrible encounters in Philadelphia, Baltimore, and parts of New Jersey, which are no-where near as bad as, say, Detroit or East St. Louis. And yes, I agree as a kid it is fun to go urban exploring, but the fact remains it is an absurdly dangerous activity, especially in cities like the ones this thread is about.

[RedImperator]

To answer Phongn, I'm not from US, but I'm here now, and being poor I have lived next to two bad neighborhoods, near-abandoned towns that have shootings almost every night, but in the day, it's ok. I'm not denying that there are horrific places, but RedImperator made it sound like whenever there is an abandoned building, big bad crime magically appears there overnight,

I said nothing of the sort, you fucking dipshit. I responded to your retarded claim that the ghetto is "paradise" for little kids because of all the abandoned buildings to explore--the same abandoned buildings which are already in use as crackhouses and impromptu homeless shelters. At no point was this thread about all abandoned buildings, just the ones in horrible decaying wastelands like Flint, Detroit, and parts of Philadelphia.

and people, especially little 8 year olds who wanted to explore, either die or become criminals themselves and go playing run from the cops or whatever he said to that effect. Ridiculous.

These are neighborhoods where eight year olds aren't allowed to go outside, period, because their mothers are afraid they'll catch a bullet--and justifiably so. These neighborhoods are the worst places in the entire first world, and the abandoned buildings are where the worst scumfucks go to avoid public scrutiny. Why do you think the cities want to tear them down in the first place? The teenaged ghetto kids I've known are tough and fearless (to the point of reckless stupidity for too many of them, frankly), and they would laugh in your retarded face if you suggested going exploring abandoned houses in an American slum. You have no fucking idea what you're talking about.

[Straha]

Kun, there are bad neighborhoods and then there are bad neighborhoods. America is a widely diverse country with very very diverse cities. Case in point: I've been to most bad neighborhoods in Manhattan, and while I wouldn't like living there they aren't bad to be in. I've skirted bad Neighborhoods in D.C. and was genuinely terrified. I couldn't imagine going out to Philadelphia or Detroit. (Detroit, for instance, was a more violent city than Baghdad post-invasion.) While other cities, Seattle springs to mind (but I might be wrong), don't have any real bad areas. Sure there might be poorer areas, but they aren't bad. Keep this in mind, because unless you've seen some of those shitholes in person you have no idea just how terrifying, and deadly, they can be.

[Stark]

Yeah, when you're a kid, this stuff is incredible, it's like some people on here missed out on a good portion of their childhood. I had it like you, but I grew up in a war zone as a "bonus". There is nothing like it, scavenging around, exploring little areas and hideouts, going into gardens up in the hills around the city and stealing fruit, looking for stuff, hanging out with friends, making martial arts weapons out of random crap, playing all kinds of games, when you get little older may be banging a girl or two . Today's electronic generation is too soft and devoid of any real substance. I remember once when my friends and I went into a building under construction that was abandoned when the war started. The guy that was a guard there started chasing us half way up the stairs, threatening to kill us, and yelling all kinds of curses our way. When we got to the top floor (may be 6th?), there was nowhere else to go, so some of us were about to jump down the side of the building from one scaffolding to the other, but the other guys couldn't so we decided to stay and fight together. Now I realize the stupidity of both decisions, but luckily, he ended up letting us go, but the sheer fear and excitement of the moment and others like it is unmatched by anything kids have nowadays. They are locked up in their little pretty neighborhoods, with pretty malls, with fully equipped rooms, and have no clue on what compass side the Sun comes up, nor what a real friendship is.

what the fuck? Trespass + assault = fun? Yeah the kids of Detroit are really missing out on that. It's why they're so soft! Damn them for being so locked up in their own pretty neighbourhoods!

Anyone want to imagine what would gave happen if this idiot did his stunt in one of the American cities mentioned in this thread?

BTW better go break the law or you'll be soft and electronic and never have true friends.

[Broomstick]

Anyone want to imagine what would gave happen if this idiot did his stunt in one of the American cities mentioned in this thread?

Don't have to wonder... I did mention that the first time someone shot at me I was only 11... Fortunately for me, handguns are not terribly accurate.

Yes, kids will go exploring even where they shouldn't - and in some US cities children disappear or are found dead after doing so.

[That NOS Guy]

To answer Phongn, I'm not from US, but I'm here now, and being poor I have lived next to two bad neighborhoods, near-abandoned towns that have shootings almost every night, but in the day, it's ok. I'm not denying that there are horrific places, but RedImperator made it sound like whenever there is an abandoned building, big bad crime magically appears there overnight, and people, especially little 8 year olds who wanted to explore, either die or become criminals themselves and go playing run from the cops or whatever he said to that effect. Ridiculous.

Exar, I'm yet another Philadelphian. You really don't know what you're talking about. For example, I go to school at Temple University, and there's a very good reason it's one of the most policed campuses in the entire US. Just accept what Red is saying, because he's entirely correct in his argument.

You may not believe it's really that bad, but it really is. If you don't think so, you're welcome to take the grand tour to show us that it's not really all that bad, and we're just being scared pampered suburbians. Please, be quiet.

[PeZook]

How come you fine American folks allowed some of your biggest cities to become urban gang warzones, anyway? I mean...christ, reading some of these descriptions, I'm utterly terrified. I mean...I wouldn't like to go to a bad Gdansk neighborhood at night, but I don't have to worry about getting shot while walking/driving through it in broad daylight!

The very idea that places like that exist in the richest country in the world is utterly surreal.

[CmdrWilkens]

How come you fine American folks allowed some of your biggest cities to become urban gang warzones, anyway? I mean...christ, reading some of these descriptions, I'm utterly terrified. I mean...I wouldn't like to go to a bad Gdansk neighborhood at night, but I don't have to worry about getting shot while walking/driving through it in broad daylight!

The very idea that places like that exist in the richest country in the world is utterly surreal.

Well part of it is that we aren't the richest on a per-person basis. Depending on which metric you use the nominal GDP perperson in the US ranks either 10th, 15th, or 17th in the world. At the same time median household income is rising slower than GDP to the point that current Medians are at or below where they were at the start of the decade, which means increasingly the wealthy get REAL wealthy and the poor get REAL poor.