Is Finland a better place to live in than the US?

[Eulogy]

At least for the average person? Because Edi is a prominent member of this board, and his posts give the impression that Finland is mostly run by sane people.

[bobalot]

I would say so.

Good healthcare system, education system and social safety net. No religious tards with huge amounts of power pushing their agenda.

[Oskuro]

But then again, what are the barriers to entry? From what I've been told, many of the best countries have rather strict immigration policies.

[Stark]

Almost all western nations have such requirements; America is no exception. I could emigrate to the UK because I'm solid Roman, but I'd never be allowed to emigrate the US without a pile of money or employer working the system.

[TheLostVikings]

Is Finland a better place to live in than the US? At least for the average person? Because Edi is a prominent member of this board, and his posts give the impression that Finland is mostly run by sane people.

Yes without a doubt, pretty much all of Scandinavia is like that. Damn near free education and health care, and tons of safety nets to catch the unlucky ones (plenty of people still manage to fall trough the cracks, but probably far less than anywhere else).

The socialist democracies of Scandinavia are really the odd ones out. We rolled socialist on our characters sheets, but unlike most attempts at doing so somehow still managed to be wildly successful. We do have to pay a metric fuckton of tax compared to most other places, but then again our wages tend to mostly compensate for that.

Finland in particular has one of the best education systems in the world, with tons of educators from other countries trekking there to try and figure out why they do so well.

[Darth Wong]

Yeah, Finland ranks higher than the US. Look at the UN HDI rankings:
http://hdr.undp.org/en/statistics/

1. Iceland
2. Norway
3. Canada
4. Australia
5. Ireland
6. Netherlands
7. Sweden
8. Japan
9. Luxembourg
10. Switzerland
11. France
12. Finland
13. Denmark
14. Austria
15. United States
16. Spain
17. Belgium
18. Greece
19. Italy
20. New Zealand

But the difference is not as great as one might think. Quite a few other countries outrank Finland.

Of course, some people will dismiss this ranking because it is from the UN and is therefore "socialist" or somehow corrupted by the fact that China is a member, as if they micro-manage all of the scientific and humanitarian studies. But they use a more comprehensive system than any of the detractors of this work ever do.

But don't worry Americans, at least you still beat New Zealand. I think New Zealand suffers in the rankings because of all the orcs.

[Elfdart]

I would say so.

Good healthcare system, education system and social safety net. No religious tards with huge amounts of power pushing their agenda.

My kid sister and her husband moved there eighteen months ago and they love it.

[Lusankya]

Well, one thing about the US is that according to the UN, it ranks 12 in HDI, but 82 in income inequality between the richest 10% and the poorest 10% and 77 in inequality between the richest 20% and poorest 20% (Finland ranks 6th and 4th, respectively), so while the HDI difference between the US and Finland is low, it's probably greater for poor people than it is for rich people.

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

Another important factor is just the enormous variations between different parts of the U.S. as far as liveability. And that's not even just geography. Living in New York is much more cosmopolitan and filled with diverse opportunities and sights than you would have in Helsinki or Oslo, while living a quieter and probably less affluent life in Vermont will give you nearly all the benefits of living in rural Scandinvaia with a better clime, more gregarious people, and worse social safety net (including health care). But the U.S. also has urban centers whose mere inner cities would out-populate all of Finland and are more or less second-world as far as being good places, and of course several states like Oklahoma, Alaska, and West Virginia are poor, socially backwards (less so Virgina there) hellholes. But with 300 million people there are obvious and massive difference between some strata and regions of the U.S. and others, to the point where comparing it with any other country is hard.

Is Finland a better place to live? Probably, almost certainly, yes, for Finns.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

At least for the average person? Because Edi is a prominent member of this board, and his posts give the impression that Finland is mostly run by sane people.

Yes, without question. If their nuclear industry expansion does go through I'd seriously put it on the list of countries I'd consider living in.

[Adrian Laguna]

That depends on what criteria one uses for "better place to live". I, for one, need a certain amount of daily sunlight else I start getting real depressed. Considering that the entirety of Finland is above 60 degrees latitude, I think I would rather try my luck in South America than attempt to endure their winters. I remember a Finn once told me that the Finnish where one of the most depressed peoples on Earth. I don't know if that's true, but I can understand where he's coming from.

[Darth Wong]

That depends on what criteria one uses for "better place to live". I, for one, need a certain amount of daily sunlight else I start getting real depressed. Considering that the entirety of Finland is above 60 degrees latitude, I think I would rather try my luck in South America than attempt to endure their winters. I remember a Finn once told me that the Finnish where one of the most depressed peoples on Earth. I don't know if that's true, but I can understand where he's coming from.

Yeah, I'm sure that single-issue concept is a much more comprehensive and analytical study of the situation than comparing all kinds of metrics such as the proportion of people with various degrees of education, life span, likelihood of dying before 40, likelihood of your kids surviving to adulthood, presence of a comprehensive social safety net, etc.

[Lusankya]

Well, some of this stuff comes down to personal opinion. I, for example, quite like it in China, though I'd never say that it's as good as Australia for the average person. It's getting better, but it's nowhere near first-world level yet. It's good for me in large part because I get to live a standard of living well above that of the average Chinese person.

Naturally, though, if you're talking about the average person, then you want the aggregate of all factors, rather than just one or two people's opinion.

[Adrian Laguna]

Yeah, I'm sure that single-issue concept is a much more comprehensive and analytical study of the situation than comparing all kinds of metrics such as the proportion of people with various degrees of education, life span, likelihood of dying before 40, likelihood of your kids surviving to adulthood, presence of a comprehensive social safety net, etc.

I was talking about my personal opinion as it pertains to myself and myself only... which admittedly was not what the OP was asking. Sorry about that.

[His Divine Shadow]

At least for the average person? Because Edi is a prominent member of this board, and his posts give the impression that Finland is mostly run by sane people.

Well if you are american coming to Finland will be a culture shock because people are introverts and most of the population need to get drunk to show emotions. There's a reason we're so violent and have a high rate (once worlds highest in the late 80s I think) of suicide here. Americans I have seen here in Finand are so fucking social and outgoing that they stand out immediatly from a crowd.

I jokingly refer to the main finnish trifecta of interests as alcoholism, depression and then suicide.

OTOH, we got a solid system with good education and nobody needs to be as poor as one can become in the states. But I'm just saying, Finland isn't a place of happiness and joy. I know lots of people who say they'd like to pack up and leave for somewhere where the people aren't as bitter and look at you as if you where deranged if you talk to strangers.

[His Divine Shadow]

Also I wanted to add this to my previous post but it was too late:
Just recently I read about some brothers who wreaked havoc in a small town over midsummer, they fought each other and caused a ruckus, then ran away from the police in an unregistered car and none of them had driving licenses, in the chase they flipped the car and one went through the windshield but managed without any serious injuries, after that they fought the cops some more before being subdued. Ahhh, your traditional finnish midsummer celebration...

[Oberleutnant]

Not all regions are equal in Finland.

There is a stark contrast between the central areas and far poorer provinces of the east and north.

Rural parts of eastern Finland are not what I would call countryside, unlike the southern and western areas, but perpetual conifer forest with depopulating towns with ageing populations. There are no job prospects and those young people who have no family business to continue become alienated and alcoholic -unless they move elsewhere, like my mother and many of my friends have done.

Finnish society is a success story only as far as the most important cities and coastal areas go. Finns rarely realize that in most provinces the GDP per capita is well below EU28 average. Of course, that is to be expected in a country which is so big, yet has only slightly above 5 million inhabitants.

Finland grew from one of the poorest European countries riddled by civil war into one of the richest in the world in the 1980s, and despite the setbacks of early 1990s depression it has managed quite well. Finns always remember to be grateful for the veterans of the Second World War, but they should be equally grateful for what was done for country's economy and society in 1940-1980.



Winters here are not nearly as bad as most foreigners think, “here” meaning southern and central Finland. Gulf Stream makes Finland warmer than say Alaska, or other places in similar latitude. Doesn't help with the lack of sunlight in the winter, though.

I prefer the current 24-28 degrees Celsius and nearly 20 hours of sunlight were having at the moment.

[Tiriol]

As others have noted, there is regional variation in Finland, as well, and not all Finns or others who live here regard Finland as the best place (or better than USA) to live. Personally I'm happy to live here, though.

There can (and probably will) be a culture shock in the work places, as well, not just in private life (drinking etc): for decades the Finns were said to rely on "management by perkele", meaning that once the director/boss/superior made the decision, there was no room for discussion (or even before it). This has become less common as Finns have become more adapted to more extrovert cultures, but there is still some signs of this way of life and from time to time. Furthermore, it might be a little disorienting for anyone whose country does not have a conscript system, since almsot every Finnish male (80% or above) and some Finnish women as well these days have experience in military. This doesn't show much in the daily life, though, but it does give at least some perspective to the military life and the basic grunt's work that non-soldiers sometimes/often lack.

The oft-mentioned drinking is very widespread; while I don't usually drink (and even when I do, it's usually very little and done socially) and while the number of people not drinking is growing, the Finns have a reputation for drinking and for a good reason. This can be jarring even after a long while.

However, Finland does have good social safety nets, a good education system and generally a very good society (although if one reads some of our tabloids' message boards or even actual newspapers', like Helsingin Sanomat's, message boards, one could get a very different image...). The people aren't THAT depressed or sullen as the popular view is, but rather they are more private than Americans (or many other nationalities) and usually just try to endure whatever life throws at them while grinding their teeth together (depression IS sadly more common than many would believe and even now some people dismiss it as some phoney concept and that "depressed" people are lust lazy or lack the mental fortitude to do work).

The depopulating villages and towns mentioned in Oberleutnant's post are a very real pheomenon. This plays merry hell on those areas' employment possibilities, although they also are a result of poor employment possibilities and general unemployment, so it's a vicious cycle. As one can see, Finland, while being generally a nice place to live, does have its own problems. They are not of the same magnitude as those in USA, though, although there has been some shift towards more US-style society (the gap between the rich and the poor has been widening in the recent years, for example, and the "societal responsibility" of the companies has been often forgotten in favor of bigger earnings and winnings).

[Oberleutnant]

One problem with highly institutionalised safety nets and social welfare system such as is the case in Nordic countries is their dehumanizing aspect. Before them, Finland and other Nordic countries used to be more family-centric and generations of people lived together under the same roof, just like in the Mediterranean countries. Nowadays, grandmothers are put into nursing homes and children hurled into day care – and forgotten there. If problems arise, the blame is on the society, not the families. Same with cases of alcoholism and depression.

There’s no doubt plenty of unfounded nostalgia, but I wouldn’t be surprised if the sense of community and social networks have completely changed from what they used to be here. I guess it didn’t help that Finland urbanised at a rapid and often dramatic pace relatively late, just over 40 years ago. According to studies, Swedish-speaking Finns have retained their sense of community and being together, unlike the rootless Finnish-speaking majority, and that because of this they live happier lives and are better at coping with challenges.


And yeah, I'm happy to live here. Wouldn't want to move anywhere else. Being six months abroad was enough, even if food cost only half of what it does here, the cities were actually pretty and entire Europe was just a train ride away. Work and study-related interaction with foreigners is also so damn difficult. Why can't they be just as pragramatic and straightforward as (most) Finns are?

[Fr33ze]

You gotta have "sisu" to live in Finland.

[Edi]

Wow, stay away from SLAM a few days and miss all kinds of interesting threads. My countrymen have covered most points pretty well, both the good and the bad.

The thing about Finns is that we are somewhat introverted, but I think not so much introverted as reserved and/or value our privacy. This leads to us being somewhat reticent, but it's just the outer layer. We are (or can be) pretty damned outgoing and talkative among friends and people we know, but you need to get past that hurdle first. Once you're accepted by a Finn, it seems like they morph into rather different people. We're also comfortable with silences, so we don't necessarily need to fill every moment with talk, which can be quite jarring to foreigners. I've read accounts that this is especially true of Americans, who can interpret it as there being something wrong or us being sulky.

One of the biggest problems for anyone who moves here is the language. Being Finno-Ugric rather than Indo-European, it is entirely different in nearly all aspects from most European languages, so learning it and mastering it can be a pretty daunting task. Not that it's a problem, but obviously employment prospects are much improved if you know the language.

With regard to societal saftey nets and legislation, Finland is mostly very good and sensible. If you want an idea of what kind of laws we have on the books, you can take a look at the Justice Ministry website.

This is a good place to live, but as with everywhere else, it is not all dancing on roses. I certainly prefer it over many of the places I've been to or read about.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

What are the immigration standards for skilled professionals, if I may ask, Edi? You sounded very positive about the future prospects of nuclear power in Finland so I'd be curious to know to keep my options open, seeing as The situation in America with healthcare is such that I don't think I could ever raise children here. Obviously the ultimate stay of gay adoption and things like that in Finland is thus also very important to me as well, of course.

[Oberleutnant]

Knowing quite a few foreigners living and working in Finland, I can say that emigrating to Finland is not all that difficult: finding a job is the trickiest part, although not impossible. It's hard enough for a native Finn, but future job prospects for anyone with technical and engineering background should be good. There was an acute shortage of engineers just a few years ago before the current slump.

Finnish Immigration Service
http://www.migri.fi/

Experiences of an American IT-professional living in Finland

Step-child adoption legal for same sex couples is legal and so is in vitro fertilisation. I would not be surprised if Finland followed the example set by Nordic countries in the near future and legalize full gay adoption, but in these matters we've been slower to react than Scandinavian countries.

[Darth Wong]

One problem with highly institutionalised safety nets and social welfare system such as is the case in Nordic countries is their dehumanizing aspect. Before them, Finland and other Nordic countries used to be more family-centric and generations of people lived together under the same roof, just like in the Mediterranean countries. Nowadays, grandmothers are put into nursing homes and children hurled into day care – and forgotten there. If problems arise, the blame is on the society, not the families. Same with cases of alcoholism and depression.

Umm, it's exactly the same way, if not worse, on this side of the ocean. In fact, Americans think that a multi-generational household is composed of losers, since only a loser would stay with his parents or take care of them in any way other than sending them to a nursing home.

[ray245]

One problem with highly institutionalised safety nets and social welfare system such as is the case in Nordic countries is their dehumanizing aspect. Before them, Finland and other Nordic countries used to be more family-centric and generations of people lived together under the same roof, just like in the Mediterranean countries. Nowadays, grandmothers are put into nursing homes and children hurled into day care – and forgotten there. If problems arise, the blame is on the society, not the families. Same with cases of alcoholism and depression.

Umm, it's exactly the same way, if not worse, on this side of the ocean. In fact, Americans think that a multi-generational household is composed of losers, since only a loser would stay with his parents or take care of them in any way other than sending them to a nursing home.

Well for one, the cultural mindset here is rather different. You are not viewed highly upon if you send the elderly in your family to a nursing home.