Does america love israel?

[madd0ct0r]

That 'star trek and god' thread got me thinking: Is america (or parts thereof) very protective of israel and why?


This stems from a longrunning discussion with a guy at work - he tends to conspiracy theories, i tend to the theory that nobody is in control really.

Anyhow, American partialisim to Israel.

I'd assumed it could be accounted for through population and voting, but that nutjob off fox seems to go much much further then that.
why?

[Samuel]

Because for the end of the world to occur, Israel has to be around. Therefore a large voting block seeks to insure they are supported so they can fullfill biblical prophecy and usher in the end of days.

It isn't the only reason, just a major one.

[General Zod]

That 'star trek and god' thread got me thinking: Is america (or parts thereof) very protective of israel and why?


This stems from a longrunning discussion with a guy at work - he tends to conspiracy theories, i tend to the theory that nobody is in control really.

Anyhow, American partialisim to Israel.

I'd assumed it could be accounted for through population and voting, but that nutjob off fox seems to go much much further then that.
why?

You're new to the whole Israel vs. Palestine thing aren't you?

[Memnon]

That 'star trek and god' thread got me thinking: Is america (or parts thereof) very protective of israel and why?


This stems from a longrunning discussion with a guy at work - he tends to conspiracy theories, i tend to the theory that nobody is in control really.

Anyhow, American partialisim to Israel.

I'd assumed it could be accounted for through population and voting, but that nutjob off fox seems to go much much further then that.
why?

You're new to the whole Israel vs. Palestine thing aren't you?

This has nothing to do with Israel vs Palestine, so back off. >_>
To answer the question: It probably has a lot to do with the idea that Americans are morally superior to the rest of the world, and since the Jews have been oppressed for so long - what could be more moral than helping them with whatever the heck they want?
Besides, the Jewish vote is pretty important in swing states like Florida. Hence the pandering.

[Darth Wong]

The correct term would be "suck the cock of", not "love". America sucks Israeli cock. They give them billions of dollars in aid every year, they cheerfully accept that their friendship with Israel makes them a target for Islamic extremists around the world with no tangible benefit to themselves, they smile and say "thank you" every time Israel thumbs their noses at their attempts to broker peace by building more settlements and bulldozing more Palestinian homes, they even tried to silence the American sailors who were killed by psycho Israeli pilots who shot them up in the water after attacking their ship.

As for the reason why, there are a number of reasons. One of them (rabid Rapture-ready fundies) has already been mentioned. But on a more widespread level, they tend to see Israelis as "the good guys" because they have to divide up all conflicts into "good guys" and "bad guys", and Israel has certain traits which make them seem more like "the good guys" to them.

Remember that it's hard to change a mode of thought. It's hard to adapt to new situations. It's much easier to plug new characters into an old paradigm, and that's what America is doing right now. Inflexible and slow to change, they have adapted the Cold War paradigm of proxy war and the "Domino Effect" to the 21st century by substituting "Islam" for "Communism". With that mindset in place, it's easy to see why they are so bound and determined to support Israel; in their minds, Israel is the linchpin of their proxy war against Islam. It's an incredibly easy substitution, since the Cold War-era conflict in that region pitted American-backed Israelis against Soviet-armed Arab states anyway.

[Memnon]

Remember that it's hard to change a mode of thought. It's hard to adapt to new situations. It's much easier to plug new characters into an old paradigm, and that's what America is doing right now. Inflexible and slow to change, they have adapted the Cold War paradigm of proxy war and the "Domino Effect" to the 21st century by substituting "Islam" for "Communism". With that mindset in place, it's easy to see why they are so bound and determined to support Israel; in their minds, Israel is the linchpin of their proxy war against Islam. It's an incredibly easy substitution, since the Cold War-era conflict in that region pitted American-backed Israelis against Soviet-armed Arab states anyway.

Having recently taken an American History class (of admittedly shallow depth), I can say that this is pretty much right on the bulls-eye. Essentially, phrases such as 'commie bastards' would get tossed out by my fellow students fairly often when the topic of communism came up, and the attitude towards them tends to be very negative.
The same situation does apply to Islam as well, with many of my friends essentially mindlessly cheering on American troops in our overseas adventures. It's seen as blasphemy to even consider the faults of soldiers in Iraq/Afghanistan such as mistreatment of civilians.

I'm sure this has been covered a lot before though, so I'll finish with that.

[madd0ct0r]

right.
Cold War thinking continuation.


that seems reasonable. and was an idea i'd completely missed. ta.

[18-Till-I-Die]

This thread isn't too old, so I felt i should add this...

Anyway, lets just be really honest with ourselves. America, and the entire Western world for that matter, is run by White people. Try to deny it, but the reality is that for literally the ENTIRE existence of the US, until a year ago, every single leader was White. The majority of the country is White. White people run the US...it's objectively, demonstrably true.

Are Iranians White? No, they're Persian. How about Palestinians? Nope. Iraqis? Most Muslims for that matter? Not likely.

You know who is White...Jews, and by extention Israelis. The vast majority of them are descended from European Jews, most from like places like Germany or Poland or Russia, and all very, very White. Their religion is literally one step away from Christianity, which most White people practice in the West, and in fact their religion is in form if not fuction proto-Christianity (read the Bible, the first two-thirds are the Torah, not even joking).

So lets review: the West is run by White Christians by a gargantuan margin, the United States is the most prominent and powerful Western country, and the Israelis are both White and, while not Christian, might as well be. Arabs...Persians...Muslims in general...all very un-White and very un-Christian.

Do the math. Why do you think America loves Israel...it's a colony of White, (almost) Christian ideals in the middle of the Middle East. Really, you can add whatever deeper, more logical reasoning you want...but really you're thinking too hard. Like most things that drive Western beliefs and policies it's just racism. To be more specific, like most things the West does, it's Manifest Destiny dressed up as geopoliticking.

[Big Orange]

Modern Persians are mostly Indo-European and the Palestinians are not so dissimilar to Jews, Armenians, Greeks, and Italians. Of course Judaism, Christianity, and Islam have more similarities than differences, and there have been many Muslims introduced into Europe through Spain and the Ottomon Empire.

[PainRack]

Modern Persians are mostly Indo-European and the Palestinians are not so dissimilar to Jews, Armenians, Greeks, and Italians. Of course Judaism, Christianity, and Islam have more similarities than differences, and there have been many Muslims introduced into Europe through Spain and the Ottomon Empire.

He's talking about popular perception, not reality.

[Posner]

Don't forget that while Israel has AIPAC, Israel's rivals do no have well funded or large grass roots lobbying efforts going on in the United States. Add that to the common perception of Arabs in America and it's no wonder America sucks so much Israeli cock.

[Memnon]

This thread isn't too old, so I felt i should add this...

Anyway, lets just be really honest with ourselves. America, and the entire Western world for that matter, is run by White people. Try to deny it, but the reality is that for literally the ENTIRE existence of the US, until a year ago, every single leader was White. The majority of the country is White. White people run the US...it's objectively, demonstrably true.

Well, it's true, but I want to nitpick here because it's 2:27 and I can't sleep. Many of our leaders before Obama have been of other phenotypes... Just not in the Presidency.

Are Iranians White? No, they're Persian. How about Palestinians? Nope. Iraqis? Most Muslims for that matter? Not likely.

You know who is White...Jews, and by extention Israelis. The vast majority of them are descended from European Jews, most from like places like Germany or Poland or Russia, and all very, very White. Their religion is literally one step away from Christianity, which most White people practice in the West, and in fact their religion is in form if not fuction proto-Christianity (read the Bible, the first two-thirds are the Torah, not even joking).

It's true that a large part of Christianity stems from Judaism, but I really do think a big part of the attitude towards Jews is a kind of white guilt complex. Before the Nazis took antisemitism and made it their own, it was pretty common to be racist towards Jews - at least as common as it was to be racist against black people (though certainly not to the same degree). That guilt probably has played a role in reducing that, by my own estimation.

EDIT: take note of the anti-Jew caricature. Big nose, a yiddish accent and expressions - these are referring to those very 'White' Jews you speak of.

[madd0ct0r]

All a bit odd. I've never thought of Jews as being 'white'

I've never thought of churchgoers as 'white' either.

Am i alone in tending to think of people in terms of country or loose geographic region rather then specific racial type?

IE - he looks turkish, she looks scandanavian, they look thai, he looks like angry ect.



Do some americans really self identify that much with a small country in the middle east?

[Gil Hamilton]

Well, it's true, but I want to nitpick here because it's 2:27 and I can't sleep. Many of our leaders before Obama have been of other phenotypes... Just not in the Presidency.

I think the argument is that with Obama, there was a tremendous argument whether someone who wasn't white COULD get elected president. The other side milked the race card for all it was worth on a local level to convince people that Obama was (A) and Angry Black Radical and/or (B) the Muslim Manchurian Candidate, and you really did get alot of the "I'm not voting for him because he's black and has a Muslim sounding name" people out there being foolish on tape.

Plus, I wouldn't describe the situation as "many of our leaders". The vast majority have been white and protestant on a state and federal level. A few of them haven't been white, not many.

[Memnon]

Well, it's true, but I want to nitpick here because it's 2:27 and I can't sleep. Many of our leaders before Obama have been of other phenotypes... Just not in the Presidency.

I think the argument is that with Obama, there was a tremendous argument whether someone who wasn't white COULD get elected president. The other side milked the race card for all it was worth on a local level to convince people that Obama was (A) and Angry Black Radical and/or (B) the Muslim Manchurian Candidate, and you really did get alot of the "I'm not voting for him because he's black and has a Muslim sounding name" people out there being foolish on tape.

Plus, I wouldn't describe the situation as "many of our leaders". The vast majority have been white and protestant on a state and federal level. A few of them haven't been white, not many.

Well, I suppose the wording might be somewhat off, but the nitpick still remains a nitpick.
And yes, I understand that argument - just wanted to add something to my other point.

Like d0ct0r said, americans think like that too (to a degree) - they lump white people together but think that, for instance, all east asian people are either japanese or chinese (depending on their personal experience) as opposed to calling them asian.

[Darth Wong]

All a bit odd. I've never thought of Jews as being 'white'

They certainly seem more "white" than blacks, asians, or hispanics.

I've never thought of churchgoers as 'white' either.

I wouldn't either. Blacks and hispanics are, if anything, more rabidly religious than white people.

Am i alone in tending to think of people in terms of country or loose geographic region rather then specific racial type?

That's an American idea, which we also have in Canada because both of our nations are essentially built on immigration. In Europe, it's the opposite: they have trouble thinking of race and nationality as separate concepts.

Do some americans really self identify that much with a small country in the middle east?

Hell yes. There's a reason they keep referring to their values as "Judeo-Christian".

[Coyote]

You know who is White...Jews, and by extention Israelis. The vast majority of them are descended from European Jews, most from like places like Germany or Poland or Russia, and all very, very White...

Dude, have you been to Israel? It's "browntown". Easily half the population if not more is "Mizrachi/Sephardic" with a tiny dash of Falash-Mura (Ethiopian).

[Lusankya]

You know who is White...Jews, and by extention Israelis. The vast majority of them are descended from European Jews, most from like places like Germany or Poland or Russia, and all very, very White...

Dude, have you been to Israel? It's "browntown". Easily half the population if not more is "Mizrachi/Sephardic" with a tiny dash of Falash-Mura (Ethiopian).

Well, I doubt he's been, but then again neither has 99% of America.

[Molyneux]

in fact their religion is in form if not fuction proto-Christianity (read the Bible, the first two-thirds are the Torah, not even joking).

Speaking as an atheist Jew here - the "first two-thirds are the Torah" because Christianity doesn't give a fuck about stealing from any other religion they run across. And reading Judaism referred to as "proto-Christianity" gives me a nice taste of bile in the back of my throat, thank you very much.

[Rye]

in fact their religion is in form if not fuction proto-Christianity (read the Bible, the first two-thirds are the Torah, not even joking).

Speaking as an atheist Jew here - the "first two-thirds are the Torah" because Christianity doesn't give a fuck about stealing from any other religion they run across. And reading Judaism referred to as "proto-Christianity" gives me a nice taste of bile in the back of my throat, thank you very much.

Christianity was an outgrowth of Judaism and Islam was an outgrowth of both. "Proto-Christianity" is fair for what he said. If it makes you feel better, read judaism as a prepuce-thieving, baby-mutilating, mass murderer-adoring, social programming system of cultural isolation and mindless obedience.

[Samuel]

in fact their religion is in form if not fuction proto-Christianity (read the Bible, the first two-thirds are the Torah, not even joking).

Speaking as an atheist Jew here - the "first two-thirds are the Torah" because Christianity doesn't give a fuck about stealing from any other religion they run across. And reading Judaism referred to as "proto-Christianity" gives me a nice taste of bile in the back of my throat, thank you very much.

The fact that Jesus was Jewish might have had some influence on that you know.

[Big Orange]

To put things bluntly, Christianity and Islam are far more widespread outside the Eastern Med region because they're both not so hung up on racial/cultural inwardness that Judaism is famous for (although Ancient Greeks had been known to convert to Judaism and the infamous King Herod was partially non-Jewish).

[Bellator]

This thread isn't too old, so I felt i should add this...

Anyway, lets just be really honest with ourselves. America, and the entire Western world for that matter, is run by White people. Try to deny it, but the reality is that for literally the ENTIRE existence of the US, until a year ago, every single leader was White. The majority of the country is White. White people run the US...it's objectively, demonstrably true.

Are Iranians White? No, they're Persian. How about Palestinians? Nope. Iraqis? Most Muslims for that matter? Not likely.

You know who is White...Jews, and by extention Israelis. The vast majority of them are descended from European Jews, most from like places like Germany or Poland or Russia, and all very, very White. Their religion is literally one step away from Christianity, which most White people practice in the West, and in fact their religion is in form if not fuction proto-Christianity (read the Bible, the first two-thirds are the Torah, not even joking).

So lets review: the West is run by White Christians by a gargantuan margin, the United States is the most prominent and powerful Western country, and the Israelis are both White and, while not Christian, might as well be. Arabs...Persians...Muslims in general...all very un-White and very un-Christian.

Do the math. Why do you think America loves Israel...it's a colony of White, (almost) Christian ideals in the middle of the Middle East. Really, you can add whatever deeper, more logical reasoning you want...but really you're thinking too hard. Like most things that drive Western beliefs and policies it's just racism. To be more specific, like most things the West does, it's Manifest Destiny dressed up as geopoliticking.

All this equally applied to South Africa during the Apartheid era. Hell, it basicly was a white colony in a continent filled with black people. Yet I don't recall much sympathy from the west for that regime during it's last decade or two, and plenty of outrage.

[Darth Wong]

All this equally applied to South Africa during the Apartheid era. Hell, it basicly was a white colony in a continent filled with black people. Yet I don't recall much sympathy from the west for that regime during it's last decade or two, and plenty of outrage.

That's because it was Africa. Black africans "belong" there, while white Africans don't. Americans think Jews belong in Israel because the Bible says so. There's a lot of "God's Will" interpretation in the way Americans view other countries. They have an idea of the way things are "supposed" to be, even if they're radically different from the way they would expect things to be in their own country.

[Zwinmar]

I think in addition to the above, it is also a legacy of cultural memory from the crusades. Even now many people and organizations say that the crusades were a good thing.