Argos Naval Yard Review

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Samuel
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Argos Naval Yard Review

Post by Samuel »

Sword of the Stars just had another expansion released, ANY.

The Good
More toys and a complete rejection of the idea of being bound by the laws of physics. :) Railguns that outrun and outrange lasers, inertial cannons, etc.
More uniqueness for each race.

The Bad
8.99 for this?

Does not add new mechanics or races like the expansion packs.

The Ugly
The 3 scenarios are basically domination mode (hold more territory than any other group with the multiplier being set at the start of the game and victory being impossible for the first 50 turns).
You know, something that Civ 3 managed to have as one of the checkable victory conditions.

I get the feeling that the whole package would be a nice game... but that they released it in parts with obvious flaws so people bought the next part. While I liked ANY, I'm pretty sure the add-ons are not worth the price of the game. So unless, like me, you really like the game, don't bother. Alot of the stuff they added should have been in previous patches, much less expansions. I hate to sound whiny, but some of the stuff they added is pretty freaking obvious (dreadnaught support, pursuit, drone satilittes, etc.) Of course, if they keep on adding features and more toys in patches to this my opinion might change, but this feels like soaking customers for money to keep going.
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Executor32
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Re: Argos Naval Yard Review

Post by Executor32 »

Yeah, I think 8.99 is a bit much for this expansion. However, I don't have the game or any of its expansions, so the pack Steam has with the original plus all the expansions for 15.99 is rather tempting. Should I pick it up?
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Re: Argos Naval Yard Review

Post by Alyeska »

Grr. I paid $30 for the SOTS pack 2 months ago. Now that Argos is released its $9, but the complete SOTS pack is now just $16. Fucking hell. I have to pay a total of $39 for something that now sells for $16.
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Nephtys
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Re: Argos Naval Yard Review

Post by Nephtys »

It's sad that SOTS's best play experience was the stock, with our own Covenant's modset of weapons and ships. Although Murder of Crows really addressed a lot of that by making missile combat viable again, adding alternate spinal weapons, adding some new shiptypes (drones), and adding stuff like off-bore spinals.

However, that STUPID morale system is worthless and idiotic. It just adds another level of minor fuss to hold 5 million spacebucks in savings just so your planets gain happiness at the same rate they lose it for overcrowding.
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Covenant
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Re: Argos Naval Yard Review

Post by Covenant »

Well, they 'addressed' those issues by copying my weapons and branding them as 'new' items. Sadly, they didn't even copy them correctly!

SotS is crap. But I suppose people are so starved for spaceship games that they'll play anything. SotS just feels like a well made indy project, not a real game by a real company. These guys were responsible, in some part, for the expac for homeworld 1. Why was that relatively interesting and SotS so garbage? I claim laziness and poor code.
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Re: Argos Naval Yard Review

Post by Samuel »

Covenant wrote:Well, they 'addressed' those issues by copying my weapons and branding them as 'new' items. Sadly, they didn't even copy them correctly!

SotS is crap. But I suppose people are so starved for spaceship games that they'll play anything. SotS just feels like a well made indy project, not a real game by a real company. These guys were responsible, in some part, for the expac for homeworld 1. Why was that relatively interesting and SotS so garbage? I claim laziness and poor code.
Damn, that sucks. Is this it?
http://www.fileplanet.com/172720/170000 ... 1.0-(Beta)
Does it work for the current version or do I need to uninstall back to the origional?
However, that STUPID morale system is worthless and idiotic. It just adds another level of minor fuss to hold 5 million spacebucks in savings just so your planets gain happiness at the same rate they lose it for overcrowding.
And it is so easy to exploit. Set battle limit to a minute, avoid combat and morale takes a hit of 5 and production drops. And once it drops low enough the planet revolts and becomes independent. Of course, the true stupidity is that police vessels essentially nullify it so it just means even more micro.
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Nephtys
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Re: Argos Naval Yard Review

Post by Nephtys »

Each iteration of SOTS has so many different issues. Some old problems disappear, others arrive. The only thing it has for it throughout is that each race feels unique and plays different.

SOTS Stock: The weapons are really lame, most are literally useless. Only advanced particle beams and plasma bolts are any good in the end game. Result: Everyone fights with the same crap. On the plus side, I do like the C&C options, and certain Electronic Warfare things, such as the Fog of War generator, and the Wild Weasels. Meanwhile, planetary bombers, missiles, railguns, biological weapons... all utterly useless.

Born in Blood: The Zuul are kinda lame as a race concept, the new AP mod makes railguns sorta viable. Heavy plasma bolt batteries are a new weapon competing with the other two viable ones, so that's sorta a plus. Broadside-mounted fixed lasers utterly worthless, since the enemy just dips slightly below the plane and your guns never fire.

Murder of Crows: Worst name ever. The new aliens are alright. Lots of good weapon rebalance, such as MIRV missiles, shields being viable. New 'beam lasers' stolen from Covenant are worthless though. Virtually all weapons now have viable endgame trees and hard counters, so that's good. Biological warfare/assault shuttles viable now that planetary bombardment is a lot harder. Fixed beams now have limited tracking, making them... decent? Holy crap! Fighter Drones are a stupid gimmick. The new morale system is a horrible, HORRIBLE thing that really sets back the improvements to balance. The new space stations mechanic is pointless and worthless. Commerce is useless, and commerce raiding is equally useless. All these new strategic elements were just klutzed in without much thought in making them elegant or meaningful.
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Re: Argos Naval Yard Review

Post by Stark »

Basic SotS doesn't scale and has terrible combat; the first expansion adds another bland alien and accentuates that problem. The Kerberos guys simply have no fucking idea what is good and bad about their design; their childish behaviour on their forums demonstrates the kind of idiots they are.

But hey, it has an engine that supports actual positional missing and accuracy, unlike Sins, so it's got... something. I guess? It's just a shame they have no idea how to design a UI or set up a city or fleet system that doesn't require massive micro. Interest in this game should solely be focused on their tactical engine, since it can be made decent - the strategic level is utterly without merit beyond 'interesting FTL ideas with knock-on strategic consequnces'.
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Nephtys
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Re: Argos Naval Yard Review

Post by Nephtys »

Stark wrote:Basic SotS doesn't scale and has terrible combat; the first expansion adds another bland alien and accentuates that problem. The Kerberos guys simply have no fucking idea what is good and bad about their design; their childish behaviour on their forums demonstrates the kind of idiots they are.

But hey, it has an engine that supports actual positional missing and accuracy, unlike Sins, so it's got... something. I guess? It's just a shame they have no idea how to design a UI or set up a city or fleet system that doesn't require massive micro. Interest in this game should solely be focused on their tactical engine, since it can be made decent - the strategic level is utterly without merit beyond 'interesting FTL ideas with knock-on strategic consequnces'.
Strategic level is basically MOO1 strategic level. As in, you tell a planet to build crap, or set sliders.

SotS's tactical engine really needed to just be Homeworld skirmishes, except shrunk slightly. Make the ships faster, space bigger, and then add a z-axis you could do something with. Suddenly, awesome game. Stuff like targetting specific parts of enemy ships are alright, but hardly vital. It could be just like Homeworld 2, where only rarer capital scale ships have subsystems.

Instead, the engine is at best, passable. The worst part though is how lots of things are just out of your control. Like how ships bob up and down on the Z-Axis without your control. Did your ship get hit by a kinetic shell? Are you shoved upwards? Tough luck! All the good weapons on human ships are mounted on the top part of the ship, like Space Battleship Yamato or something. Guess you're screwed Earthlings, since there's no way to manually tell you ship to point downwards. So many functions are pointless too. Why would I order my destroyer to never fire a specific laser turret out of it's 8? Or one of my 30+ Battleship guns? Stuff like that. Ergh.

Come on Kerberos, good job making a nice indie game. Go make something else. And while fleshing out universes is really nice, I really don't need to give a damn about the hobbies of the alien races, or what food they eat, or how family units work. Ugh.
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Re: Argos Naval Yard Review

Post by Stark »

You already can target specific parts; there just aren't many parts becasue the design system is laughably basic. The strat issues are for me primarily scaling; the turntime very quickly becomes utterly absurd and I lose interest in the requirement to micro so much shit just to move my fleet 1 square closer to xyz system. It's a direct result of their lack of decent UI layout; even GalCiv2 has less colony micro (and generally better-presented information).

Sins is a way better game overall, but it's horrible flaws (no missing, stupid econ, stupid dip, balance issues) mean it's impossible to play either of them vanilla.

Now you've reminded me about the laughable degree of fire control you get in combat... for no reason. And it's all so counter-intuitive to set and control batteries that it's not worth the micro.
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Re: Argos Naval Yard Review

Post by Samuel »

Fighter Drones are a stupid gimmick.
They added in heavy drones with ANY to try and fix that, along with some other drone things. Of course missile PDs were also added to kill drones more effectively so...
The new space stations mechanic is pointless and worthless. Commerce is useless,
? I get more money from commerce than my planets. Is it just the high start up costs that makes it useless to competant players who actually compete against each other?
Come on Kerberos, good job making a nice indie game. Go make something else. And while fleshing out universes is really nice, I really don't need to give a damn about the hobbies of the alien races, or what food they eat, or how family units work. Ugh.
It gets better- the fluff doesn't match with the game. The Destroyer is too small to fit its crew for example :P And the Hivers fight constant wars amoung themselves... and use a gate network. :wtf:
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Re: Argos Naval Yard Review

Post by Covenant »

Samuel wrote:
Covenant wrote:Well, they 'addressed' those issues by copying my weapons and branding them as 'new' items. Sadly, they didn't even copy them correctly!

SotS is crap. But I suppose people are so starved for spaceship games that they'll play anything. SotS just feels like a well made indy project, not a real game by a real company. These guys were responsible, in some part, for the expac for homeworld 1. Why was that relatively interesting and SotS so garbage? I claim laziness and poor code.
Damn, that sucks. Is this it?
http://www.fileplanet.com/172720/170000 ... 1.0-(Beta)
Does it work for the current version or do I need to uninstall back to the origional?
That would be it. Someone made a fan patch of it to work on something more recently, but Kerebos changed the weapon class data structure (why? I have no idea, they didn't add any new functionality) and it no longer functioned, so I can't really tell you. They'd break my mod every patch and I just got tired of fixing it. Thing is, I don't even own the game, I had to have Neph test most of the stuff for me. I made what was widely called the best balanced SotS experience strictly by doing calculations and reasoning out a proper balance. I was eventually gifted a copy, but not the new xpacs, and I honestly don't give a shit anymore. The admins there were openly hostile to me because I wasn't respectful enough, and really, the only reason I picked up the game to mod in the first place was spite.

So it's less me being a great modder than they being a really shoddy development team, but I never much was a fan anyway.
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Re: Argos Naval Yard Review

Post by Samuel »

Could you give me a link to the arguments? Also how did you balance the weapons? From what I can tell, you have to main configurations for big ships- captial killer and destroyer destroyer, based on wheter you go cutting beams or tracking weaponary.
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Re: Argos Naval Yard Review

Post by Nephtys »

Covie's mod was based on a few things we worked out over a few weeks. Lasers became beam weapons for extended range use, and so a fleet of destroyers can concentrate pin-point fire on the enemy fleet, in one of those anime style 'huge gunline firing beams' sorta deals. However, railguns lost that idiotic 'push you back a billion miles' power, and became BSG-style flak guns that had some scatter, so you did more damage up close than at range because more shells would hit. Heavy weapon projectiles included large cannon, and smaller automatic cannons.

Those idiotic fixed heavy beam cannons of the stock game were improved in range and given slight tracking (something they took to make them usable in Murder of Crows), and other options were allowed for the fixed mounts. For example, fixed railguns, heavy missile or torpedo launchers, or giant yamato cannon plasma ball thingies. Assault Shuttles became much more powerful, and cruiser/battleship sized carrier mounts were introduced. Those 'torpedo' weapons that sucked became ST-style Photon/Quantum torpedoes that fired in salvos of three and had slight tracking, another idea they literally took for Murder of Crows with virtually the same graphics effect. Oh, and we added an alternative 'macross micro-missile' thingie to saturate point defense that could be mounted on small turrets, which was also 'borrowed' in the Born in Blood X-Pack.

Oh, and Covie reduced the number of polygons in a single projectile/laser from 80 to like 4, which MASSIVELY enhanced performance.
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Re: Argos Naval Yard Review

Post by Samuel »

Shuttles became much more powerful, and cruiser/battleship sized carrier mounts were introduced.
They took that in ANY.
http://sots.rorschach.net/Battle_Riders
http://sots.rorschach.net/Advanced_Assault_Shuttle
http://sots.rorschach.net/Heavy_Drone

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Re: Argos Naval Yard Review

Post by Covenant »

I'm not upset--I had my fun and I proved my point, it's not like they were going to hire me anyway, even if it would have probably faster than trying to steal them in steps.

Basically, the thing with the balance was that the game simply wasn't either flashy or fun, and the realism aspect was trash. The concept of balance used was "accuracy is worth twice it's weight in damage" and "range is worth half it's weight in accuracy."

The other balance principle was "all weapons should be viable to the endgame as primary weapons, improved iterations should not replace previous designs except as more specialized variants." So red lasers were accurate, fast to fire, did low damage, had long range, penetrated atmospheres best and fit on smalls. Greens were mediums, fired slower, did more damage, etc. So balance got incrementally more complex, not more powerful. The power was gained from the flexibility to make specialized ships. What's the point in having many weapon types and ship design mechancs if only one weapon is necessary to win? Even at endgame with AI Dreads, a player should be using T1 and T2 weaponry for SOMETHING.

As for the ballistics, kinetic weapons of all types had extreme range, but the projectiles didn't move that fast and were not accurate so it was unlikely they'd hit at max range. They did the same damages at all ranges, and fired real fast, and had the sweet nBSG graphic for their fire effect. Oh, and I added functional flak, which you can see the remnant poofs of in a few of the SS's posted. You can see one bursting in the bottom of the topmost image, and right next to it you can see the missile it was meant to intercept (and may, the flaklets are the white hot dots that are flying out of the explosion). I apologize for the quality but I didn't take these, they're actually fan screenshots!

Lasers became beam weapons that either fired in quick, short pulses or--as some did--long burns. A 'long burn' laser had to track--which meant that you'd often know when you came into range of the enemy because long fingers of laserlight would appear off the flanks of the front ship and rake their ways into the hull, leaving hot melted trails. A cool effect, if I say so myself. That last pic is being done at remarkably short range, and with green lasers, it was probably extremely brutal. That's a more normal range.

I made a lot more missiles, and made them kick white smoke instead of brown. I made small missile mounts for dumbfire weak-tracking missile swarms (stolen!) as well as heavy missile slots that fired what were essentially cruise missiles. I also gave them a faster turn rate than turn acceleration, which caused them to yield to inertia and have to flip around and accelerate back into you. This made them handy on lighter ships, but with the more advanced engines a small craft can survive against missile spam. Less so against my Star Trek inspired Photon and Quantum Torpedoes.

Much to my dismay, the big guns remained the most popular, but whatev'. I finally just gave them a goofy Yamato Cannon ripoff. There's a ship back in that mess, trust me. The large cloud at the 'base' is the firing location. Thing is, for it's cost and mass, that big gun is terribly non-efficent. So at least heavy lasers and heavy missiles win out. I also added bombs and a few other unglamorous things. The bombs were really sweet--they had blinking lights to denote their type, they were released close up to a planet... oh well.

Like I said, I had my fun.
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Re: Argos Naval Yard Review

Post by Covenant »

Some of the best stuff they can't steal anyway--I made a hojillion more planet names from sci-fi series, as well as tons more names for the random aliens you fight, tweaked the combat and engagement AI, the weights of the ships, armor values, etc. Basic, core gameplay changes. But that's just basic stuff--like some of the UI mods I did. The real meat of it was, obviously, the weapons, and that what most people cared about. At some point the Kerebos staff made it so when you encounter an asteroid base or something, it's actually farther out than you are, putting you in this horrible spot between the planet and the AI? How idiotic--I sure fixed that... as well as much of the tech randomization issues. Like, you can no longer be denied point defense weapons, or at least basic shielding, and you'll always get your species' best drive system.
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