Coup in Honduras

[Force Lord]

Link

Honduran military ousts president ahead of vote

By WILL WEISSERT and FREDDY CUEVAS, Associated Press Writers Will Weissert And Freddy Cuevas, Associated Press Writers – 2 hrs 3 mins ago

TEGUCIGALPA, Honduras – Soldiers ousted the democratically elected president of Honduras on Sunday and Congress named a successor, but the leftist ally of Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez denounced what he called an illegal coup and vowed to stay in power.

The first military takeover of a Central American government in 16 years drew widespread condemnation from governments in Latin America and the world — including the U.S. — and Chavez vowed to overthrow the country's apparent new leader.

President Manuel Zelaya was awakened Sunday by gunfire and detained while still in his pajamas, hours before a constitutional referendum many saw as an attempt by him to stay in power beyond the one-term limit. An air force plane flew him into forced exile in Costa Rica as armored military vehicles with machine guns rolled through the streets of the Honduran capital and soldiers seized the national palace.

"I want to return to my country," Zelaya said in Costa Rica. "I am president of Honduras."

Congress voted to accept what it said was Zelaya's letter of resignation, with even Zelaya's former allies turning against him. Congressional leader Roberto Micheletti was sworn in to serve until Jan. 27 when Zelaya's term ends. Micheletti belongs to Zelaya's Liberal Party, but opposed the president in the referendum.

Zelaya denied resigning and insisted he would serve out his term, even as the Supreme Court backed the military takeover and said it was a defense of democracy.

Micheletti was sworn in at a ceremony inside the Congress building with cheers and chants from fellow legislators of "Honduras! Honduras!"

Outside of Congress, a group of about 150 people opposed to Zelaya's ouster stood well back from police lines and shook their fists, chanting "Out with the bourgeoisie!" and "Traitors!"

Micheletti insisted that he did not arrive at his new post "under the aegis of a coup d'etat."

"I have reached the presidency as the result of an absolutely legal transition process," he said.

He reached out to Zelaya's supporters, saying "Today in Honduras, there are neither victors, nor defeated. The motherland is for all."

He also defended the army, saying "the armed forces have complied with the constitution and the laws."

But he warned against outside interference after Chavez remarked that if Micheletti was appointed president, "We will overthrow him."

"We are going to demand respect from any nation that threatens to trample our sovereignty," Micheletti said.

Zelaya's overthrow came hours before polls were to open on a constitutional referendum that he was pushing ahead even after the Supreme Court and the attorney general said it was illegal. The constitution bars changes to some of its clauses, such as the ban on a president serving more than one term, they said.

Some businesses in the capital, Tegucigalpa, closed earlier this week amid the rising tension, and many speculated there would be a coup. Those who opposed the referendum warned against voting, fearing violence at the polls.

Countries throughout Latin America and the world condemned Zelaya's expulsion. Chavez said Venezuela "is at battle" and put his military on alert.

In Havana, Cuban Foreign Minister Bruno Rodriguez vowed to work with allies to push for Zelaya's return to power. He said Cuban Ambassador Juan Carlos Hernandez was held briefly in Tegucigalpa after he and other foreign diplomats tried unsuccessfully to prevent soldiers from taking away Honduran Foreign Minister Patricia Rodas.

Chavez said troops in Honduras temporarily detained the Venezuelan and Cuban ambassadors and beat them.

President Barack Obama said he was "deeply concerned" and U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said Zelaya's arrest should be condemned.

"I call on all political and social actors in Honduras to respect democratic norms, the rule of law and the tenets of the Inter-American Democratic Charter," Obama's statement read.

Coups were common in Central America for four decades reaching back to the 1950s, but Sunday's ouster was the first military power grab in Latin America since a brief, failed 2002 coup against Chavez. It was the first in Central America since military officials forced President Jorge Serrano of Guatemala to step down in 1993 after he tried to dissolve Congress and suspend the constitution.

"We thought that the long night of military dictatorships in Central America was over," said Costa Rican President Oscar Arias, who sat beside Zelaya at a news conference.

Zelaya told the Venezuela-based Telesur network that he was awoken by gunshots and the shouts of his security guards, who he said resisted troops for at least 20 minutes. Still in his pajamas, he jumped out of bed and ducked behind an air conditioner to avoid the bullets, he said.

He said eight to 10 soldiers in masks escorted him onto an air force plane that took him to Costa Rica.

Zelaya said he would attend a scheduled meeting of Central American presidents in Nicaragua on Monday and that Chavez, who also plans to attend, would provide transportation.

Zelaya called on Honduran soldiers to back him, urged citizens to take to the streets in peaceful protests, and asked Honduran police to protect demonstrators.

About 100 supporters congregated in front of locked gates outside the national palace, where they hurled rocks at soldiers and shouted "Traitors! Traitors!" They hung a Honduran flag.

"They kidnapped him like cowards," screamed Melissa Gaitan. Tears streamed down the face of the 21-year-old, who works at the government television station. "We have to rally the people to defend our president."

Many union and farm groups supported Zelaya's push for the referendum — which he said was aimed at changing policies that have excluded the nearly three-quarters of Hondurans who live in poverty.

The vote did not take place on the referendum, which asked whether another vote should be held on convoking an assembly to rewrite the constitution.

This is the first military coup in Latin America in decades, if we don't include the near-coup against Chavez in 2002.

[Axis Kast]

A first glance at the legal argumentation appears to lead one to the conclusion that this is not a coup, but, in fact, civil-military relations functioning exactly as they should. The military has proven loyal to the constitution, not the personality behind the institution of the executive.

[Force Lord]

Are you saying that the military had legal justification for this?

[Bilbo]

A first glance at the legal argumentation appears to lead one to the conclusion that this is not a coup, but, in fact, civil-military relations functioning exactly as they should. The military has proven loyal to the constitution, not the personality behind the institution of the executive.

That is my feeling as well. The President wanted to alter a portion of the Constitution that cannot legally be changed so that he can run for additional terms of office. Sounds to me like this guy was nothing more than a junior Chavez in training that the countries Supreme Court had nipped in the bud by the military before he became too much of a threat.

Of course the other leftist regimes of Central and South America are now threatening Hondurus so who knows what will happen. Since none of the threatening countries actually border Hondurus I doubt they can relly project enough power to do direct harm so I expect the typical terrorist, guerilla type action, if there is anything at all.

Force Lord, you asked if the military had justification. According to several sources the army was merely acting under order of the countries Supreme Court which had ruled the referendum the President was pushing to be illegal, a ruling the President was completely ignoring.

So the question is, if the President does something illegal, blatantly illegal, and the Supreme Court orders the army to remove him from power is that a coup? Guess it depends on the Hondurus constitution. The Congress of Hondurus supported the Supreme Court, with both of them against the Prez at least in the United States the President could be impeached. Maybe there is no impeachment provision in the Honduran constitution.

[Anguirus]

Yeah, I'm not sure Obama is making the right call here. At first glance this isn't a coup nor an establishment of a dictatorship.

[Force Lord]

Why the military, though? Are there any other national law-enforcement agencies in Honduras that can do the same job? Or am I mistaken?

[Axis Kast]

Allow me to draw your attention to certain salient information, direct from the Weissert and Cuevas article in the OP:

Zelaya's overthrow came hours before polls were to open on a constitutional referendum that he was pushing ahead even after the Supreme Court and the attorney general said it was illegal. The constitution bars changes to some of its clauses, such as the ban on a president serving more than one term, they said.

Now, it is true that the president recently removed the general in charge of the country's Joint Chiefs of Staff, who is essentially head of the armed forces. However, the row seemed to be directly related to the legal imbroglio. Moreover, I'm inclined to cut the armed forces some slack. We haven't heard reports of violent yet, aside from accusations that diplomats from Havana and Caracas were detained and beaten.

Why the military, though? Are there any other national law-enforcement agencies in Honduras that can do the same job? Or am I mistaken?

I think the military probably regards itself as the defender of the constitution, in this instance. I agree that things would have appeared more "kosher" had it been civilian law enforcement.

Regarding Obama's approach, while it has been interpreted as criticism, I wonder if his remarks are not a subtle way of saying, "Do what you've got to do - just keep it from becoming a bloodbath." He could be endorsing the military's behavior as the more democratic, after all.

[Bilbo]

Why the military, though? Are there any other national law-enforcement agencies in Honduras that can do the same job? Or am I mistaken?

Might just be a safety issue. Maybe the military provide security for the President or they were unsure if sending in police would accomplish much in the face of whatever security the President normally has.

[Prannon]

I'm at work, so I couldn't do this myself right now, but it would be interesting to take a look at the relevant portions of the Honduran constitution to see if the Supreme Court and Attorney Generals interpretations on Presidential term limits are correct or merely political maneuvering. It wouldn't surprise me if the enemies of the president were making some really obscure or convoluted argument based on a vague clause, especially since this is a Latin American banana republic we're talking about here. The other side of that coin is that I also wouldn't be surprised if they were honestly taking drastic action to prevent him from staying in power.

As for Obama and the rest of the world's negative response, nobody likes it when the military ousts a chief executive. In many ways that goes outside established civil institutions for removing chief executives and sets bad precedents. Sure, they might have had some good justifications and legitimate legal reasoning this time around, but it makes future military actions without reasoning that much more possible. Any general can say that they're defending the constitution on the vaguest of principles and overthrow the legal rulers. Not to mention short term instability, the risk that Venezuela might do something brash, and the fact that the ex-president is at large and able to cause trouble if he wants to. It's a fear of the unknown which drives that condemnation.

On the other hand, this is a pretty clean ouster as far as they go, and it's not like the military has installed a general in power. It would seem that the Congress maintains it's sovereign authority, so civilian government remains in place. I'm willing to believe that Obama is just throwing out the necessary diplomatic-speak while quietly saying "I've no sympathy for Zelaya, and I hope this all blows over without incident."

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Uh, "coup" ? WTF? Why are they calling it a coup when the Supreme Court declared the refendum unconstitutional and requested that the army enforce the law as it had no other means of doing so? The same thing would happen in the US if the President declared a national referendum on changing the constitution to remove term limits, since such a thing is not legal under the constitution, nor is it in Honduras, and the Congress had unanimously acknowledged the legality of the act and appointed a successor... After it had, in the first place, requested that the Honduran supreme court rule on the legality of the President's actions.

[Bilbo]

I'm at work, so I couldn't do this myself right now, but it would be interesting to take a look at the relevant portions of the Honduran constitution to see if the Supreme Court and Attorney Generals interpretations on Presidential term limits are correct or merely political maneuvering. "

No one has argued in the least that the Constitution says anything other than a President can only serve one term. Furthermore it clearly says that this portion of the Constitution cannot be amended. No one, not even the ousted President is arguing either of these points.

[Force Lord]

Uh, "coup" ? WTF? Why are they calling it a coup when the Supreme Court declared the refendum unconstitutional and requested that the army enforce the law as it had no other means of doing so? The same thing would happen in the US if the President declared a national referendum on changing the constitution to remove term limits, since such a thing is not legal under the constitution, nor is it in Honduras, and the Congress had unanimously acknowledged the legality of the act and appointed a successor... After it had, in the first place, requested that the Honduran supreme court rule on the legality of the President's actions.

I apologize. I did not read the article well and so misinterpreted what happened. The fact that in Latin America the perception that military intervention=coup doesn't help either.

[K. A. Pital]

Come on... this is freaking Honduras we are speaking about. Why the military and not some other enforcement agency? Well quite obviously they don't even have a constitutional impeachment procedure, so they acted like they could and with what they could. It's not like there's much more to this than another power feud in a dirt poor LA nation.

[Johonebesus]

Uh, "coup" ? WTF? Why are they calling it a coup when the Supreme Court declared the refendum unconstitutional and requested that the army enforce the law as it had no other means of doing so? The same thing would happen in the US if the President declared a national referendum on changing the constitution to remove term limits, since such a thing is not legal under the constitution, nor is it in Honduras, and the Congress had unanimously acknowledged the legality of the act and appointed a successor... After it had, in the first place, requested that the Honduran supreme court rule on the legality of the President's actions.

Actually, that's not the way it would go down here (hopefully). If the president ordered an illegitimate referendum, the Congress and courts would argue that the results are invalid. If the President tried to act on the referendum, he would be impeached. Sending the military in to arrest him would be the last resort upon his refusal to recognize his conviction in the Senate.

I don't know the details of the Honduran constitution or the political realities, but I would think that there should be more steps in the civil process of removing him from office before the soldiers would be sent in. It would be one thing if the military was dispatched to prevent the referendum from occurring, or after he was impeached, or at the end of his term, but to arrest him now seems a bit rushed. It doesn't sound like a military coup d'état, but neither does it sound completely kosher.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Uh, "coup" ? WTF? Why are they calling it a coup when the Supreme Court declared the refendum unconstitutional and requested that the army enforce the law as it had no other means of doing so? The same thing would happen in the US if the President declared a national referendum on changing the constitution to remove term limits, since such a thing is not legal under the constitution, nor is it in Honduras, and the Congress had unanimously acknowledged the legality of the act and appointed a successor... After it had, in the first place, requested that the Honduran supreme court rule on the legality of the President's actions.

Actually, that's not the way it would go down here (hopefully). If the president ordered an illegitimate referendum, the Congress and courts would argue that the results are invalid. If the President tried to act on the referendum, he would be impeached. Sending the military in to arrest him would be the last resort upon his refusal to recognize his conviction in the Senate.

I don't know the details of the Honduran constitution or the political realities, but I would think that there should be more steps in the civil process of removing him from office before the soldiers would be sent in. It would be one thing if the military was dispatched to prevent the referendum from occurring, or after he was impeached, or at the end of his term, but to arrest him now seems a bit rushed. It doesn't sound like a military coup d'état, but neither does it sound completely kosher.

The referendum that was illegal was going to be held tomorrow, so the President had to be arrested and expelled from the country today to stop it from happening. That's quite sufficient justification, and the Supreme Court asked the military to act.

[Prannon]

I'm at work, so I couldn't do this myself right now, but it would be interesting to take a look at the relevant portions of the Honduran constitution to see if the Supreme Court and Attorney Generals interpretations on Presidential term limits are correct or merely political maneuvering. "

No one has argued in the least that the Constitution says anything other than a President can only serve one term. Furthermore it clearly says that this portion of the Constitution cannot be amended. No one, not even the ousted President is arguing either of these points.

I wasn't saying that anyone was arguing that. It's just that I don't entirely trust the Honduran Surpreme Court, the attorney general, or the Congress when it says that changing that portion of the constitution is illegal. Now granted, I have no evidence of an ulterior motive on their part, just my personal misgivings on trusting their words. Take another look at the article.

Zelaya's overthrow came hours before polls were to open on a constitutional referendum that he was pushing ahead even after the Supreme Court and the attorney general said it was illegal. The constitution bars changes to some of its clauses, such as the ban on a president serving more than one term, they said.

So we're going on their words and their words only. The article doesn't fact check them by looking into the relevant portions of the constitution, and that is why I was interested in having it checked to be sure that Zaleya's opponents aren't doing something shady. The article is clear on what the Supreme Court and Attorney General say, but not on the constitution itself. So no, it's not clear.

That's quite sufficient justification, and the Supreme Court asked the military to act.

even as the Supreme Court backed the military takeover and said it was a defense of democracy.

I'm not so sure tha the Supreme Court ordered the military to take action. The article would seem to imply that the Supreme Court merely approved of it after the fact. It was probably a concerted plan between the SC, the Congress, and the military that led to this ouster.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

It is clear, because you're completely ignoring the fact that the Supreme Court has the power to determine constitutionality, per:

The Constitution of Honduras

Quoted in part only for sake of brevity:

ARTICULO 184.- Las Leyes podrán ser declaradas inconstitucionales por razón de forma o de contenido. A la Corte Suprema de Justicia le compete el conocimiento y la resolución originaria y exclusiva en la materia y deberá pronunciarse con los requisitos de las sentencias definitivas.

ARTICULO 185.- La declaración de inconstitucionalidad de una ley y su inaplicabilidad, podrá solicitarse, por quien se considere lesionado en su interés directo, personal y legítimo:

1. Por vía de acción que deberá entablar ante la Corte Suprema de Justicia;

2. Por vía de excepción, que podrá oponer en cualquier procedimiento judicial; y

3. También el Juez o Tribunal que conozca en cualquier procedimiento judicial, podrá solicitar de oficio la declaración de inconstitucionalidad de una ley y su inaplicabilidad antes de dictar resolución. En este caso y en el previsto por el numeral anterior, se suspenderán los procedimiento elevándose las actuaciones a la Corte Suprema de Justicia.

ARTICULO 186.- Ningún poder ni autoridad puede avocarse causas pendientes ni abrir juicios fenecidos, salvo en causas juzgadas en materia penal y civil que pueden ser revisadas en toda época en favor de los condenados, a pedimento de éstos, de cualquier persona, del ministerio público o de oficio. Este recurso se interpondrá ante la Corte Suprema de Justicia. La ley reglamentará los casos y la forma de revisión.

Per Article 184 of the Constitution of Honduras, the act was legal.

As shown here, the Supreme Court explicitly states that it authorized the ouster of the President of Honduras. Not approved of it, authorized it.

TEGUCIGALPA (AFP) – The newly appointed leader of Honduras Roberto Micheletti ordered a 48-hour curfew after denying there had been a coup d'etat on deposed President Manuel Zelaya.

At dawn troops had roused Zelaya in his pajamas and flew him out of the country, ending a bitter power struggle with the military as parliament swiftly voted in a new leader.

Zelaya insisted when he arrived in regional neighbor Costa Rica that he remained the president of his Central American nation, but just hours later the Congress voted in the parliamentary speaker as the country's new leader.

"A curfew begins today and ends on Tuesday," Micheletti said at his first press conference, as worldwide condemnation for the action, led by the United States, continued.

"We recognize Zelaya as the duly elected and constitutional president of Honduras. We see no other," a top US State Department official told reporters on condition of anonymity.

Micheletti, a member of Zelaya's own Liberal Party, maintained however after being sworn in by Congress that he "came to the presidency not by a coup d'etat but by a completely legal process as set out in our laws."

The first such major upheaval in several decades in the impoverished country was triggered by a tense political standoff between Zelaya and the country's military and legal institutions over his bid to secure a second term.

"I will never give up since I was elected the president by the people," Zelaya said from San Jose, accusing Honduran troops of kidnapping him and denouncing what he called a "political conspiracy."

But Congress said it voted unanimously to remove him from office for his "apparent misconduct" and for "repeated violations of the constitution and the law and disregard of orders and judgments of the institutions."

Micheletti was appointed to serve out the rest of the term, which ends in January. New general elections are planned for November 29.

Zelaya, elected to a non-renewable four-year term in 2005, had planned a vote Sunday asking Hondurans to sanction a future referendum to allow him to run for re-election in the November polls.

The planned referendum had been ruled illegal by the country's top court and was opposed by the military, but the president said he planned to press ahead with it anyway and ballot boxes had already been distributed.

The Supreme Court said Sunday that it had ordered the president's ouster in order to protect law and order in the nation of some seven million people.

The drama unfolded at dawn on Sunday when some 200 troops swooped on Zelaya's home.

He was bundled away in his pyjamas and flown out of the country.

A leading government official, Armando Sarmiento, told AFP that at least eight cabinet members were also detained including Foreign Minister Patricia Rodas.

As planes and helicopters overflew the capital, several hundred Zelaya supporters ignored warnings to stay home and flooded onto the streets of Tegucigalpa shouting out, "We want Mel," the president's nickname.

But the demonstration was halted in front of the presidential palace when the way was barred by a cordon of troops and armored vehicles.

US President Barack Obama said he was deeply concerned about the events in Honduras, as US officials said they recognized Zelaya as the country's legitimate president.

UN chief Ban Ki-moon said he wanted Zelaya to be reinstated and human rights in the country to be fully respected.

Last week Zelaya sacked the country's top military chief, General Romeo Vasquez and also accepted the resignation of Defense Minister Edmundo Orellana, after military commanders refused to distribute ballot boxes for Sunday's vote.

The heads of the army, marines and air force also resigned.

The Honduran Supreme Court then unanimously voted Thursday to reinstate Vasquez and hundreds of troops massed late last week in the capital Tegucigalpa.

Zelaya, who was elected as a conservative, has shifted dramatically to the left during his presidency.

He is the latest in a long list of Latin American leaders, including Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, to seek constitutional changes to expand presidential powers and also ease term limits.

Chavez also denounced Sunday's arrest as a "coup d'etat" and alleged that the United States had a hand in Zelaya's overthrow.

And he warned that if Venezuela's envoys to Honduras were harmed he would be prepared to intervene militarily.

[Oskuro]

Regarding why the military took action, well, I've lived around there (my parents just recently moved out of Honduras, thankfully), and regular law enforcement tends to be a joke (easily corruptible, and more often than not involved in most crimes), so using the military feels like a reasonable option.

As for why this is being called a "coup", calling it so makes for better headlines. And latin-american papers are very sensationalistic.

[The Original Nex]

How could the referendum have been illegal? It was to have been non-binding. The referendum would NOT have changed the portions of the Constitution that are disallowed from alterations. It would have been only a poll of the populace to gauge their support of Congressional consideration of a Constitutional change. the Honduran Congress would almost certainly have NOT followed up on it since they vehemently disagreed with the President's position.

This doesn't seems like a military coup, but rather a joint effort by all other organs of government to oust Zelaya. It's easy to make ousting a President constitutional when the Supreme Court has your back.

So far no countries have backed the actions of the government and military against the President. It will be interesting to see how this develops vis-a-vis Honduras' foreign relations.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

How could the referendum have been illegal? It was to have been non-binding. The referendum would NOT have changed the portions of the Constitution that are disallowed from alterations. It would have been only a poll of the populace to gauge their support of Congressional consideration of a Constitutional change. the Honduran Congress would almost certainly have NOT followed up on it since they vehemently disagreed with the President's position.

This doesn't seems like a military coup, but rather a joint effort by all other organs of government to oust Zelaya. It's easy to make ousting a President constitutional when the Supreme Court has your back.

So far no countries have backed the actions of the government and military against the President. It will be interesting to see how this develops vis-a-vis Honduras' foreign relations.

Because the President didn't have the constitutional authority to conduct the referendum, which is why the Army refused to help distribute ballot boxes (which shows why the army was used--the police suck so much ass they can't even be trusted to set up polling stations!), which was affirmed by the judiciary, and so he ordered the chief of the Army sacked, and the Supreme Court ruled that was unconstitutional. At that point he declared that it was a "coup" against him to keep him from sacking Army officers unconstitutionally... So the Supreme Court told the Army to remove him for unconstitutionally pressing ahead with the referendum, which non-binding or not the President cannot conduct.

BTW, this is true in almost any country, including the USA, the President just can't randomly call a non-binding vote on things. The reason to prevent this is that it's a common tactic of dictatorships to use mass-majority nationwide referenda with heavy intimidation and get out the vote efforts to create a semi-legitimate justification for various dictatorial provisions, and in this cause El Presidante was going to become El Presidante For Life using exactly those tactics, and everyone stood up to him, even his own political party. That to me shows the health of Honduras' democratic institutions, not any danger to them.

[Prannon]

It is clear, because you're completely ignoring the fact that the Supreme Court has the power to determine constitutionality, per:

*snip*

Conceded. Thank you.

Also, I took a look at the constitution for myself and found the relevant Title and clauses that the Supreme Court and Congress used to legitimize their actions vis-a-vis President Zelaya. The translation I was using was a bit off, so I'll post it in original Spanish for maximum accuracy.

TITULO VII: DE LA REFORMA Y LA INVIOLABILIDAD DE LA CONSTITUCION

CAPITULO I
DE LA REFORMA DE LA CONSTITUCION

ARTICULO 373.- La reforma de esta Constitución podrá decretarse por el Congreso Nacional, en sesiones ordinarias, con dos tercios de votos de la totalidad de sus miembros. El decreto señalará al efecto el artículo o artículos que hayan de reformarse, debiendo ratificarse por la subsiguiente legislatura ordinaria, por igual número de votos, para que entre en vigencia.

ARTICULO 374.- No podrán reformarse, en ningún caso, el artículo anterior, el presente artículo, los artículos constitucionales que se refieren a la forma de gobierno, al territorio nacional, al período presidencial, a la prohibición para ser nuevamente Presidente de la República, el ciudadano que lo haya desempeñado bajo cualquier título y el referente a quienes no pueden ser Presidentes de la República por el período subsiguiente.

Article 374 is particularly important since it flatly states that no constitutional reforms can be made to the previous article (373), the present article (374), or the articles pertaining to the form of government, national territory, the presidential term of office, or those detailing who cannot be president. Essentially, this isn't a coup, and the only thing making people jumpy is the fact that the military had a hand in it and that civil institutions for presidential removal were not followed to maximum extent. Plus now there are stability questions, questions of who is the Chief Executive, foreign relation questions, and all that other stuff that makes foreign leaders nervous. If any other process had been followed that led to Zelaya's removal, I doubt that anyone would have batted an eye.

[xerex]

if this were not a coup Zelaya would simply have been arrested and perhaps put on trial for breach of the constitution.

that he was exiled points to the military not being 100% on legal ground.

[Dark Hellion]

Did you pay attention to the thread at all Xerex. This is Honduras, a fucking Central American banana republic. They do not have the fucking law enforcement to do so, thus they called the military because it is the only functional body capable of opposition.

The rest of the world doesn't work like the west fuckwit, or haven't you been watching the last decade or so of foreign policy mishaps?

[xerex]

Did you pay attention to the thread at all Xerex. This is Honduras, a fucking Central American banana republic. They do not have the fucking law enforcement to do so, thus they called the military because it is the only functional body capable of opposition.

The rest of the world doesn't work like the west fuckwit, or haven't you been watching the last decade or so of foreign policy mishaps?

dude If the Honduran Supreme Court can declare the referendum unconstitutional why cant they put him on trial and let him defend himself ?

for a "fucking Central American banana republic" the Courts and Congress seem to be functioning quite well.

[Samuel]

Did you pay attention to the thread at all Xerex. This is Honduras, a fucking Central American banana republic. They do not have the fucking law enforcement to do so, thus they called the military because it is the only functional body capable of opposition.

The rest of the world doesn't work like the west fuckwit, or haven't you been watching the last decade or so of foreign policy mishaps?

dude If the Honduran Supreme Court can declare the referendum unconstitutional why cant they put him on trial and let him defend himself ?

for a "fucking Central American banana republic" the Courts and Congress seem to be functioning quite well.

How do you arrest him? He controls the police so you use... the military!