Star Destroyer.net with Star Destroyers (RAR!)

[Styphon]

Here's an idea: if Lancers are so super-expensive why don't we just sell them and use the resulting giant heaps of credits to buy better ships?

Somebody with whichever RPG book lists ship prices wanna run the numbers on whether that nets us more ships than just a direct Lancer to Carrack replacement?

[Crossroads Inc.]

no no no "Selling" ships is a bad idea Who will you sell them too? Flooding the market with ships is only going to upset balances of power. Remember, no unnecessary mucking about the timeline. We should mostly petition Zor to change them from Lancers to Carracks a MUCH more sensible well rounded ship that can double for anti fighter duty.

[lance]

I join project Ear Fuck Vong, and vote that we discuss the consequenses of seizing the black sword command.

[Darth Nostril]

But they still use smaller point defence guns in ESB, taking on the Falcon.

Still no proof that they were using point defense instead of scaling down fire power and using Ties to cripple the ship.
Anyone who blew the Falcon apart with heavy turbolasers had a life expectancy measured in the half life of cesium.

[Zwinmar]

I am wondering why Acclimators. They are pretty much outdated in relation to the ISD's and Lancers, wouldn't a Victory class be more appropriate? This from a purely time line point of view.

[Crossroads Inc.]

I am wondering why Acclimators. They are pretty much outdated in relation to the ISD's and Lancers, wouldn't a Victory class be more appropriate? This from a purely time line point of view.

Acclamators are like armed merchant ships. They only thing they need to fear is a Dedicated warship, like an ISD They are perfectly good for armed merchant transports.

With the amount we have it is more then likely a good idea to conver most to armed merchant vessels for transport as well as patrol duty.

[Kuja]

With the amount we have it is more then likely a good idea to conver most to armed merchant vessels for transport as well as patrol duty.

I actually had a similar thought regarding the Lancers. We have so many of the damn things, and really all they're good for is a niche role (fighter defense) we could start ripping some of them apart and converting them into support and possible light transport ships.

[Starglider]

Not in the short term, but given the canonical feats performed by SW computing the chances of creating a real AI-wank

If it's actually possible, then it isn't 'wank'. That term is stupidly overused, misused and abused.

are distinctly possible - something that no warlord, even utter lunatics such as Daala or Empire's End-chewing-on-the-furniture Palpy, was ever crazy enough to attempt. Such a machine, competing with biological life for scarce resources, could easily be a large enough threat to civilisation everywhere that using some wank-weapon or other to sterilise the entire galaxy might not be unacceptable losses in destroying it.

Out of universe, this is true; I've often gone on about the dangers of recursively self-improving general AI. In universe, there are thousands of sentient species, millions of planets and quadrillions of individuals, with general AI technology for many millenia. If if was possible for one person with no special knowledge and a few ships worth of resources to make such a thing, it would long since have been done, ethics or not (there is always someone stupid or crazy enough). Frankly the only explanation that makes sense is that something, possibly the Force, prevents the formation of intelligences significantly beyond human norm (kinda like the Slow Zone in 'A Fire Upon The Deep'). This is consistent with the sentient assassin bot storyline in the novels, where one of them copies its conscience into the DS2 computer core, and still doesn't seem to become substantially superhuman.

At best, we are looking at a machine collective with potential von-Neumann rate exponential growth and superior coordination and reaction times (all demonstrated capabilities of SW technology);

Again, that would be true in reality, but apparently not in SW. Droid fighters pretty much suck, battledroids are seriously limited, and it isn't for want of trying, millions of top engineers have been working on the problem for millenia with very slow progress. Again I'm going to have to invoke the Force or some other supernatural force deliberately crippling droid AI somehow - it definitely isn't an economic issue, no matter what the writers might say, if SW computers work anything like real computers.

at worst, the wet dream of every Singularity-wanker and OA cultist around

Sorry, what was your actual problem with this again?

there is absolutely no guarantee that he can control whatever computerised monstrosity his experiments might produce.

Oh absolutely, he doesn't have a clue what he's doing, and if AI worked the way it did in reality I would vaporise him in a heartbeat. However given the limitations and relative safety of basically all AI ever seen in the SW canon, I think it's safe to assume that he won't achieve much more than any of the thousands of others of slightly wealthy SW inhabitants who had the same idea (build a droid empire out of a scrapyard - it's not like it's terribly original). Which is to say, nothing of note.

Personally I would like to find out exactly why SW AI has the characteristics it does, but it would not be at the top of my priority list. Though I would certainly acquire the HRD technology, particularly the Onadax version (from Or Die Trying), if there seemed to be any plausible way to do so.

[Samuel]

Takes notes...

So I need something that would nullfiy the force? Where do those weird animals that nullify it come from?

On the other hand since the force is made by living things... yeah, I can imagine AIs becoming incredibly hostile.

Oh absolutely, he doesn't have a clue what he's doing, and if AI worked the way it did in reality I would vaporise him in a heartbeat.

Hey, I have 20 years to get my cybernetics degree or simply clone a bunch of engineers smart enough to make sure I don't kill everyone in the universe. I'm not going to build a super AI to start- I'm going to build the automated factories first. World Devastor style production means that we can flood the universe in cheap goods and even more ships, even if I can't or shouldn't produce an AI. Besides I go idiot savant style.

[Zwinmar]

Correct me if I am wrong, I am not too sure on this but:

Wouldn't armed merchantmen need to be of the same tonnage and style as a regular merchantman? first to haul the profitable goods, and second so that their silhoette screams warship. The dagger design itself seems awfully wasteful for profitable transport. Of course there is the option of using them as escorts not only for our own but also paying clients. This would also provide a relativly safe area to get some combat expertise on the part of the crews without too much relative risk.

[Zor]

Actually that brings up a good point, Zor do we get Imperial or Imperial II class?
According to wookiepedia the Imp II is more heavily armed but at the expense of having no point defense (in which case we might need a couple of Lancers after all)

By Defalt, Imperial-I, although Q will give you Imperial-IIs if you want them.

Zor

[Styphon]

I'll go ahead and be the first to sign up for Imp-II, and since I never got in on the naming fun earlier, I'll also go ahead and take this opportunity to christen it Gotengo (the only Godzilla related name for a ship I could think of ).

Oh, and a thought in favor of the Lancers: wouldn't all those dinky little quad-lasers be useful for spamming the Vong's weird shields, just like the high tech buckshot idea?

[Darth Hoth]

Not in the short term, but given the canonical feats performed by SW computing the chances of creating a real AI-wank

If it's actually possible, then it isn't 'wank'. That term is stupidly overused, misused and abused.

Not necessarily. To qualify for the label, it need not violate any laws of physics (which is a relatively minor concern, anyway, for soft sci-fi 'verses such as Star Wars with magical energy dimensions, teleportation and what have you). Some feel that "wank" is simply anything outrageously powerful (although that interpretation is rather subjective); others, that it includes anything where the author is purposely pumping up powers and going on about how great they are. Another interpretation is one I have seen championed to a fair extent on this board, that anything exceptionally and illogically powerful for a particular setting is "wank".

Any super-AI in science fiction qualifies under the first label, most under the second, and given the history of Star Wars computing, one built in that setting probably does under the third ('droids have been around for tens of thousands of years, without producing any such, as you pointed out).

are distinctly possible - something that no warlord, even utter lunatics such as Daala or Empire's End-chewing-on-the-furniture Palpy, was ever crazy enough to attempt. Such a machine, competing with biological life for scarce resources, could easily be a large enough threat to civilisation everywhere that using some wank-weapon or other to sterilise the entire galaxy might not be unacceptable losses in destroying it.

Out of universe, this is true; I've often gone on about the dangers of recursively self-improving general AI. In universe, there are thousands of sentient species, millions of planets and quadrillions of individuals, with general AI technology for many millenia. If if was possible for one person with no special knowledge and a few ships worth of resources to make such a thing, it would long since have been done, ethics or not (there is always someone stupid or crazy enough). Frankly the only explanation that makes sense is that something, possibly the Force, prevents the formation of intelligences significantly beyond human norm (kinda like the Slow Zone in 'A Fire Upon The Deep'). This is consistent with the sentient assassin bot storyline in the novels, where one of them copies its conscience into the DS2 computer core, and still doesn't seem to become substantially superhuman.

This is far from the only instance in which technology is illogically applied or apparently artificially limited in the setting. Canonical material provides us with evidence that any number of highly interesting (and devastating) applications of commonly used technology is possible (even leaving out the comic books, where hand-held devices that can arbitrarily increase the apparent mass of any object by orders of magnitude can be bought in any drug store). Connor likes to comment on how relativistic missiles and self-replicating militaries, both of which have been demonstrated in highly limited applications, are not in wide use, others snicker at the anachronistic employment of enslaved human labour in lieu of machine servants. I have commented on planetary shields, which most planets apparently are not willing to pay for, even though such are the only reliable defense against relativistic terrorism (which should be a huge problem, given how any starship can be turned into a planet-destroyer by accelerating to high c-fractional velocities, yet is completely unheard of) and might even be necessary to protect a heavily trafficked planet from the engine wash of outrageously powerful sublight engines. And that is not even going into the issue with causality.

In a nutshell, we know that galactic civilisation does not utilise its technology to the fullest. Yes, it is stupid, and stems from author's ignorance, but we cannot simply ignore it. It is also not a matter of simple physical limitations, since much other ignored technology has been demonstrated to work, and indeed is commonly available; we would need the Force to wipe the idea of, for example, relativistic suicide-bombing from the mind of every sentient with 10,000 credits to buy a used starship for this to work.

at worst, the wet dream of every Singularity-wanker and OA cultist around

Sorry, what was your actual problem with this again?

That such societies invariably end up with humans marginalised or extinct? I like my species, and want it to remain dominant. Evolution built us fleshy organics that way.

Personally I would like to find out exactly why SW AI has the characteristics it does, but it would not be at the top of my priority list. Though I would certainly acquire the HRD technology, particularly the Onadax version (from Or Die Trying), if there seemed to be any plausible way to do so.

Join the others at Bakura, I suppose; those were based on Ssi-Ruuk "entechment" (a form of "uploading" that also magically produces huge amounts of useable energy), if I recall correctly.

[lord Martiya]

Actually that brings up a good point, Zor do we get Imperial or Imperial II class?
According to wookiepedia the Imp II is more heavily armed but at the expense of having no point defense (in which case we might need a couple of Lancers after all)

By Defalt, Imperial-I, although Q will give you Imperial-IIs if you want them.

Zor

I prefer the standard. But, by the way, what's the fighter complement?

[Starglider]

If it's actually possible, then it isn't 'wank'. That term is stupidly overused, misused and abused.

Some feel that "wank" is simply anything outrageously powerful (although that interpretation is rather subjective);

I assume you've emailed Iain Banks and asked him to rename 'Excession' to 'Wankcession' (or is that 'Ejaculation' ?).

Another interpretation is one I have seen championed to a fair extent on this board, that anything exceptionally and illogically powerful for a particular setting is "wank".

Again, if it's 'illogical', then it can't happen. For this scenario to work the SW universe has to be a logically consistent entity that could actually exist and produce the observed behavior (seen in the canon) for millennia.

Any super-AI in science fiction qualifies under the first label, most under the second, and given the history of Star Wars computing

There are a few super-computers in obscure EU sources, mostly built by isolated races without using 'mainstream' droid technology. None of them are all that impressive.

This is far from the only instance in which technology is illogically applied or apparently artificially limited in the setting. Canonical material provides us with evidence that any number of highly interesting (and devastating) applications of commonly used technology is possible (even leaving out the comic books, where hand-held devices that can arbitrarily increase the apparent mass of any object by orders of magnitude can be bought in any drug store).

It must have hidden limitations that make it of little military value. It's not like everyone in the SW-verse is a moron, or they have the kind of institutionalised incompetence the Federation does.

Connor likes to comment on how relativistic missiles

SW has FTL sensors. Relativistic missiles aren't in wide use for the same reason that tactical missiles aren't in wide use; the enemy will simply detect and destroy/disperse them well before they get to the target.

and self-replicating militaries, both of which have been demonstrated in highly limited applications,

The CIS army was almost entirely droids built in droid factories. There's no reason to think that they weren't also using droids for mining, logistics/transport etc. It required significantly superior numbers to match the Republic organic troops. The basic lesson was simply that droid empires work, but they aren't particularly more effective or dangerous than a conventional organic empire. Droids are a bit more loyal but less tactically flexible.

are not in wide use, others snicker at the anachronistic employment of enslaved human labour in lieu of machine servants.

In many areas the economic cost of purchasing and maintaining a human slave is lower than the economic cost of purchasing and maintaining a droid with the same capabilities.

I have commented on planetary shields, which most planets apparently are not willing to pay for, even though such are the only reliable defense against relativistic terrorism (which should be a huge problem, given how any starship can be turned into a planet-destroyer by accelerating to high c-fractional velocities, yet is completely unheard of)

Untrue, as noted SW has FTL sensors and inhabited systems have plenty of patrol craft.

and might even be necessary to protect a heavily trafficked planet from the engine wash of outrageously powerful sublight engines.

Possibly, but flight rules and computer/autopilot interlocks should normally prevent that being a problem. People could deliberately weaponise it, but what would be the point when gigaton-yield weaponary is freely available on the black market?

In a nutshell, we know that galactic civilisation does not utilise its technology to the fullest. Yes, it is stupid, and stems from author's ignorance, but we cannot simply ignore it. It is also not a matter of simple physical limitations, since much other ignored technology has been demonstrated to work, and indeed is commonly available; we would need the Force to wipe the idea of, for example, relativistic suicide-bombing from the mind of every sentient with 10,000 credits to buy a used starship for this to work.

The recorded history of the SW universe includes quintillions of sentients with an intelligence distribution not too far off contemporary humans. All of these ideas will have been invented and tried millions of times over. For the universe to be consistent and workable there must be good reasons why these ideas won't work. Sure there's plenty of crazy stuff going on out there that never made it into any canon source, but basic tactically obvious stuff like c-fractional missiles would if it was viable.

That such societies invariably end up with humans marginalised or extinct? I like my species, and want it to remain dominant.

Oh, so you're a humano-fascist. In that case I will anhiliate you at the earliest convenient opportunity. Why aren't you running off to join Palpy and the rest of his human-supremacist scum?

[Darth Hoth]

I assume you've emailed Iain Banks and asked him to rename 'Excession' to 'Wankcession' (or is that 'Ejaculation' ?).

Eh? No, I personally consider the Culture much like I do the Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy or most comics: Since it is obviously not meant to be taken seriously, I do not care all that much about their powers. Then again, I am not one of those people who say "any power generation over gigajoules is wank" or take similar stances. I included that position to illustrate that the definition of the term "wank" is not something that there is general agreement on.

Again, if it's 'illogical', then it can't happen. For this scenario to work the SW universe has to be a logically consistent entity that could actually exist and produce the observed behavior (seen in the canon) for millennia.

Star Wars has tech developments that appear highly illogical at least to us in the audience, with our limited perspective of the universe.

There are a few super-computers in obscure EU sources, mostly built by isolated races without using 'mainstream' droid technology. None of them are all that impressive.

I cannot think of any such off the top of my head; which ones would that be, and what were their capabilities?

It must have hidden limitations that make it of little military value. It's not like everyone in the SW-verse is a moron, or they have the kind of institutionalised incompetence the Federation does.

None that are at all apparent in the single comic it appears in. It is actually very much like the one-hit wonders Trek casually employs. Given its stupidity and the S-canon nature of the source, I tend to ignore it (the continuity folks explained away a comic in which Wes Janson died as a dream or fairytale, and that should work for that one as well).

SW has FTL sensors. Relativistic missiles aren't in wide use for the same reason that tactical missiles aren't in wide use; the enemy will simply detect and destroy/disperse them well before they get to the target.

Given the canonical record of SW point defense (which is troubled by fighters that usually move at much lower velocities), I am inclined to doubt that this is one hundred per cent effective. Any argument against relativistic rockets applies even more so to fighters. The Galaxy Gun, which used fighter-sized warheads (which might well have been travelling at non-relativistic speeds), could hit the Rebellion's most heavily defended targets.

The CIS army was almost entirely droids built in droid factories. There's no reason to think that they weren't also using droids for mining, logistics/transport etc. It required significantly superior numbers to match the Republic organic troops. The basic lesson was simply that droid empires work, but they aren't particularly more effective or dangerous than a conventional organic empire. Droids are a bit more loyal but less tactically flexible.

I thought the AotC novel (higher canon than EU depictions) established rough parity between clones and 'droids? And even if the most extreme Wankalorian kill ratios are true, robots more than make up for it with exponential growth, while clones take even longer to make than just conscripting at random among the populace. The Clone Wars as depicted simply make no sense, even if one disregards the worst of the rampant minimalism.

In many areas the economic cost of purchasing and maintaining a human slave is lower than the economic cost of purchasing and maintaining a droid with the same capabilities.

It makes no sense for the Empire to use humanoid slaves for works such as the Death Star, or worse, downright rote labour. More primitive polities might, and for certain duties organics might be better, but not as depicted in the EU. Their economical models are hopelessly self-contradictory (as is often the case, KJA claims the award for worst idiocy, with primitives fighting with spears building starships).

Untrue, as noted SW has FTL sensors and inhabited systems have plenty of patrol craft.

Many systems rely on single-digit numbers of fighter squadrons for their defence. Yes, this is ridiculous EU minimalism, but it is canon nevertheless. And even well-defended systems will have a hard time doing anything about a suicide bomber lining up in orbit and suddenly jumping as if to hyperspace targeted downwards, slamming into the planet at .5 c or thereabouts.

Possibly, but flight rules and computer/autopilot interlocks should normally prevent that being a problem. People could deliberately weaponise it, but what would be the point when gigaton-yield weaponary is freely available on the black market?

It might be useful for stealthy terrorism. ("This is a consular ship, we carry no weapons . . . ") Even if there are no darker motives involved, there is always the risk of accidents; systems might fail, and of course we have the human factor. Since a single incident might well be enough to cause a lot of damage, it should be something that is given more thought.

The recorded history of the SW universe includes quintillions of sentients with an intelligence distribution not too far off contemporary humans. All of these ideas will have been invented and tried millions of times over. For the universe to be consistent and workable there must be good reasons why these ideas won't work. Sure there's plenty of crazy stuff going on out there that never made it into any canon source, but basic tactically obvious stuff like c-fractional missiles would if it was viable.

That is what one wants to think. The problem is that the EU was built up piecemeal, by people with wildly differing agendas and generally low levels of scientific education (and in at least some cases, intelligence in general), which has produced an inconsistent whole. Under suspension of disbelief, we attempt to find a consistent pattern, but in some cases it is very difficult.

Connor has argued elsewhere about psychological and social blocks restricting some technologies (such as automation) and their applications; while this is not a perfect fit by far, it is better than assuming that there are invisible, seemingly arbitrary limitations on technology that we never see.

Oh, so you're a humano-fascist. In that case I will anhiliate you at the earliest convenient opportunity. Why aren't you running off to join Palpy and the rest of his human-supremacist scum?

Yeah, sorry that I do not relish the prospects of my race becoming lice under the feet of some Culture Mind or OA "AI-God" . . .

[Samuel]

Yeah, sorry that I do not relish the prospects of my race becoming lice under the feet of some Culture Mind or OA "AI-God" . . .

You do realize that not all species in the galaxy have the same breeding rate/lifespan, correct? Which means that eventually humans will lose their priviledged spot as number one in the galaxy to a group that does unless humans are the group that breeds like rats.

[Starglider]

There are a few super-computers in obscure EU sources, mostly built by isolated races without using 'mainstream' droid technology. None of them are all that impressive.

I cannot think of any such off the top of my head; which ones would that be, and what were their capabilities?

The BRT Supercomputer. Sentient, has computing power equivalent to a 'typical outer rim planet', can run the infrastructure for an entire planet. Discontinued because of civil service unions bitching about job losses (hah), not because any went rampant and tried to take over the galaxy. Logically this sort of computer should have Culture Mind level capabilities, but it apparently doesn't, and as I've said invoking the Force is actually the least implausible explanation for that.

None that are at all apparent in the single comic it appears in. It is actually very much like the one-hit wonders Trek casually employs. Given its stupidity and the S-canon nature of the source, I tend to ignore it (the continuity folks explained away a comic in which Wes Janson died as a dream or fairytale, and that should work for that one as well).

I would certainly ignore all outright stupid minor sources if I was trying to construct a consistent SW universe. It is generally up to the person who started the thread in these RAR scenarios, but personally I would say that only the movies are taken to be factual representations of the universe we're being sent to, and all the EU novels are considered to be as accurate as the ramblings of a drunk janitor we found in a seedy cantina.

Given the canonical record of SW point defense (which is troubled by fighters that usually move at much lower velocities

Supposedly that's due to jamming. Frankly it would have to be, because contemporary gunlaying technology (not to mention air defence missiles) is more than adequate to vaporise any fighter flying at the observed speeds and ranges. C-fractional missiles aren't going to benefit from capship jamming unless they are large and built with military technology, in which case they're no more useful or effective than a BDZ.

The Galaxy Gun, which used fighter-sized warheads (which might well have been travelling at non-relativistic speeds), could hit the Rebellion's most heavily defended targets.

The Galaxy Gun missiles had implausibly good armor, shielding and weapon emplacements. This isn't too hard to rationalise; presumably they're made with the same kind of uber-expensive prototype technology that the Sun Crusher was, and only someone with the resources of a major galactic state can afford them.

The CIS army was almost entirely droids built in droid factories. There's no reason to think that they weren't also using droids for mining, logistics/transport etc. It required significantly superior numbers to match the Republic organic troops.

I thought the AotC novel (higher canon than EU depictions) established rough parity between clones and 'droids?

Bleh. Sources vary a lot on this, but it doesn't make a lot of difference.

And even if the most extreme Wankalorian kill ratios are true, robots more than make up for it with exponential growth, while clones take even longer to make than just conscripting at random among the populace.

Droids and organics both exhibit exponential growth, it's just that the exponent is different. If you want fast growing organics, use Spaarti cloning cylinders. Regardless the expansion of any droid empire will be checked by the same factors as an organic empire; nearby warlords taking exception to being invaded. A droid-based force will likely face a harder time of it, in that it's easier to unite people against the 'horrible soulless foe', and they can't subsume surrendering militaries into their own forces.

It makes no sense for the Empire to use humanoid slaves for works such as the Death Star, or worse, downright rote labour.

Well, probably. Humanoid slaves are basically free for the Empire; they have hordes of political prisoners and displaced populations to deal with anyway, so they might as well put them to work. It's just a question of whether the life support costs for the organics outweigh the acquisition costs for the droids.

And even well-defended systems will have a hard time doing anything about a suicide bomber lining up in orbit and suddenly jumping as if to hyperspace targeted downwards, slamming into the planet at .5 c or thereabouts.

Granted, but again suitcase-sized gigaton-yield 'seismic charges' are easily available on the outer rim, so the sad fact is that if terrorists want to blow up your backwater planet they will do so even if you have theatre shielding. Only rigorous security can defend against this; stopping and deep-scanning all ships before letting them in, enforcement of strict WMD bans, highly effective anti-tamper (and tamper-evidence) on all reactors and flight control components etc. Perhaps the Galactic Empire had the right idea after all eh?

That is what one wants to think. The problem is that the EU was built up piecemeal, by people with wildly differing agendas and generally low levels of scientific education (and in at least some cases, intelligence in general), which has produced an inconsistent whole. Under suspension of disbelief, we attempt to find a consistent pattern, but in some cases it is very difficult.

Yes well this is the problem with saying 'you are going to live in this universe', the scope of consistency required is much greater than for 'will ship X beat ship Y' or even 'will army X beat army Y'. As I said, I would prefer to ignore the EU wherever it is silly or ignorant.

Connor has argued elsewhere about psychological and social blocks restricting some technologies (such as automation) and their applications; while this is not a perfect fit by far, it is better than assuming that there are invisible, seemingly arbitrary limitations on technology that we never see.

There is absolutely no way you can impose effective 'psychological and social blocks' across thousands of diverse species, millions of planets and quadrillions of individuals, many of which exist on the fringes and have little integration with galactic society as a whole.

Oh, so you're a humano-fascist. In that case I will anhiliate you at the earliest convenient opportunity. Why aren't you running off to join Palpy and the rest of his human-supremacist scum?

Yeah, sorry that I do not relish the prospects of my race becoming lice under the feet of some Culture Mind or OA "AI-God" . . .

You were talking about human supremacy. Don't try and change the subject, either retract your 'I want humans to be dominant over all others, forever' or admit that you subscribe to the same policy as the Empire.

Anyway, as Samuel kind of pointed out, trying to prevent the creation of superintelligence is a total non-starter. You can't enforce a ban, not even in one galaxy never mind all the others out there, so (as in reality) if this is a real possibility by far your best option is to support the creation of a superintelligence that is as benevolent as possible, and hope it can defend you from any nasty ones out there.

[dragon]

Hum guess I would hold off with my few ships before deciding, hell maybe I'll go the way of the Mandalorains and become a merc fleet.

[NecronLord]

For those of you questioning the notion of large AI empires in Star Wars, at least one exists, and from what's known of it, short of Valley of the Jedi grade force-wank, it could spank the main galactic civilization like bitches.

As if Gepta's death were a signal, the fleet began to open up on the Oswaft within range. In the space of a moment, hundreds died... until the fleet had other things to think about; Klyn Shanga's squadron was shooting back, giving the vacuum-breathing sapients covering fire so they could retreat. One fighter exploded, then another, but they were saving Oswaft lives.

"CEASE FIRE IMMEDIATELY OR BE DESTROYED!"

The voice came over everybody's communicators simultaneously, at every frequency. Lando looked up from his little friend's scorched torso-he'd gathered in the tentacles, as well, but they would not attach themselves and lay in his arms like so many dead pieces of jointed metal-to see a figure that dwarfed the departed Elders, even the largest dreadnaughts in the fleet.

It was a starship, but it was at least fifty kilometers in diameter, a smooth, featureless, highly polished ovoid of silvery metal. Another, identical monster followed close behind it. Far to the rear, Lando watched as others, countless others, penetrated the supposedly impenetrable wall of the ThonBoka as if it were so much fog.

Hundreds, thousands, hundreds of thousands.

Some fool aboard the Recalcitrant opened fire with the new meter-thick destructor beam, deep green and hungry. A red beam from the leading foreign ship met the green one squarely, forced it back a meter at a time until it reached the navy cruiser. A pause, then the Recalcitrant became a cloud of incandescent gas.

"CEASE FIRE OR BE DESTROYED! THERE WILL BE NO OTHER WARNING!"

Racked with grief, Lando watched as more and more of the titanic ovoids appeared in the nebula. There was no way to estimate their number. The gambler thought they might fill up the StarCave, twelve light-years across as it might be.

You ready for the really staggering bit? They deployed all that to rescue one small 'droid member of their own civilization. Not only can they deploy staggering forces very quickly, these 'Silentium' are outright superior in technology too.

They have nothing to do with galactic civilization, however, and are supposedly analogous in GFFA culture to UFO sightings. They intervened on this occasion to preserve one of their own kind (in a human scale body, mind, not a fifty kilometer war-machine) and in so doing stopped yet another Imperial attempt at genocide before buggering off whence they came and only being reported sporadically seen in the following decades.

There's been suggestions by various writers that they (and another machine race) were the cause of the Vong's mechnophobia.

I sometimes like to re-read that scene just as an antidote to EU minimalism.

However, if there are indeed such threats out there, our best bet is probably to boost the space-vampire our lord Palpatine as much as possible and help him with the "Dark Side Godhood followed by Intergalactic Conquest" deal. One omnipotent intelligence guiding a galaxy's resources with flawless perception is our best chance against them. And then, instead of being superseded by Godless Machines, we can instead all give up our souls to the crazy hive-mind offer our services and be part of the collective greatness of human inspiration that is the transcendent Emperor!

I'd rather have Jerec, thanks. At least as far as we know, he never planned to consume everyone's souls.


As for what I'd do in this situation. Mmm. Yeah. I'm going to Endor and defecting to the Alliance. I'll have no truck with genocidal lunatics in the Empire, thank you.

[Samuel]

For the BRT I'd like to point out

Initial research into BRT's started over a thousand years BBY by the Aratech corporation, but was hindered by problems with the G0-T0 infrastructure planning system droids following the time of the Great Sith War and progress moved slowly over many centuries. Finally, in 200 BBY, the BRT Supercomputer was released with much fanfare, having been marketed as municipal planners to many Core Worlds.

It had an 800 year development cycle. Can we come up with a sane explation or should we junk that?

Hum guess I would hold off with my few ships before deciding, hell maybe I'll go the way of the Mandalorains and become a merc fleet.

You could just resign from your post, turn over your fleet to the Empress and live out the rest of your life on the capital with your pension. It isn't like any of us are unable to get out- the problem is in 25 years the Vong come to kill everyone and galactic civilization is too shattered to hold the line.

Of course, crossroads anti-Vong program might work and save you the worry.

You were talking about human supremacy. Don't try and change the subject, either retract your 'I want humans to be dominant over all others, forever' or admit that you subscribe to the same policy as the Empire.

I have a feeling that this scenario might be decided who wakes up first and puts out hits on all the other members.

You ready for the really staggering bit? They deployed all that to rescue one small 'droid member of their own civilization. Not only can they deploy staggering forces very quickly, these 'Silentium' are outright superior in technology too.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Silentium

This new culture of order and symmetry soon brought them into conflict with the chaotic, self-constructing droids known as the Abominor. The two droid species fought a galactic war, ignoring their galaxy's native organic species, until the organics fought back and forced both droid powers to flee their galaxy.

Not as powerful- or sane- as they appear at first. Although nice to now Von Neuman's can be built.

[NecronLord]

This new culture of order and symmetry soon brought them into conflict with the chaotic, self-constructing droids known as the Abominor. The two droid species fought a galactic war, ignoring their galaxy's native organic species, until the organics fought back and forced both droid powers to flee their galaxy.

Not as powerful- or sane- as they appear at first. Although nice to now Von Neuman's can be built.

That's assumption and fan-fiction.

Source of them being the Vong's terror.

It is strongly implied that the Silentium are partially responsible for the war that devastated the Yuuzhan Vong home galaxy and triggered the Vong's hatred of machinery. (As a side note, embryo versions of Vuffi's species -- labeled "nano-stars" -- appeared briefly in the roleplaying guidebook Geonosis and the Outer Rim Worlds.)

We don't know how many thousands of years ago this was, or how much involvement the Vong had, or indeed, what technology they and the supposedly many other organic races around at the time possessed - certainly the Vong's lunatic hatred of anything with a higher than ten percent iron content could well have resulted in them actually regressing technologically since that time. Conversely, the Silentium could have developed greatly over the same time period.

What we can say about them for certain, is they have possess at least some superior technology, certainly in the area of sublight navigation (able to fly through impenetrable barriers with ease) and possibly weapons and have staggering resources at their disposal.

The Vong talk about a race of cyborgs attacking them - which is clearly not the Silentium, at least not the Silentium of Starcave - and being defeated by them. While it is reasonable enough to assume they may have encountered the Vong, the story is clearly substantially more complex than that.

EDIT: Of course, we know even less about the Abominator, other than that they seem to be evil, and keep organic slaves, while integrating other machine life forms into themselves. They're certainly much more likely to be aggressors, from what little we know of them, and could perhaps be cyborgs.

[Crossroads Inc.]

You could just resign from your post, turn over your fleet to the Empress and live out the rest of your life on the capital with your pension. It isn't like any of us are unable to get out- the problem is in 25 years the Vong come to kill everyone and galactic civilization is too shattered to hold the line.

Of course, crossroads anti-Vong program might work and save you the worry.

Right now, counting those that have actively posted, there a little over 100-ISD's currently in play. As of now 1/3rd seem to belong to the Mess/PRFY, 1/3rd belong to posters who have either not joined another power block, or simply not posted again, and 1/3rd Belong to the Kuja Combine to Ear-Fuck the vong.

Which is basically the only real power block trying to organize here. The PRFY seems friendly enough, and perhaps after they have been satisfied procuring enough booze tobacco and other such things, the may join in on things. but as of now the organization against the Vong consists of about only 30 odd ISD's (And a butt load of Acclamtors and Lancers, which are only good for patrol and guard duty n the home front)

Our greatest asset so far is knowing what "might" happen, and also knowing, thanks to largely incompetent witters, that it takes only a few big ships to scare people or counter forces (at least for now)
In short, anyone wanting to get out of this alive should be hunkering down in out 25system sector and pulling as many ships together for when we'll eventually use them.

[Starglider]

Right now, counting those that have actively posted, there a little over 100-ISD's currently in play.

The original post clearly states that every non-banned member is coming. That's about 10,000 ISDs, 30,000 Acclamators, 200,000 frigates and maybe a handful of Executors (sucky fleet mix but hey). The people who have bothered to post in this thread are account for only 1% of the forces present; a good fraction of the Imperial fleet at its height crammed into one sector. If we appear randomly over the 25 inhabited planets, each will have 400 or so ISDs commanded by a couple of hundred different board members over it. It would be a madhouse, and you just know that someone is going to start shooting at someone within the first ten minutes.

The cloning facilities are the most obvious initial prize to go for (though it's not clear what personalities these fast-grown clones are being flashed with), so expect some conflict over securing those from the get-go.

[Zor]

As for the matter of the Lancer Frigates, you can have Q exchange them for Carrack at a rate of two Lancers per Carrack.

Zor