Toilet seat Debate - What logical fallacies are used?

[Justforfun000]

I'm curious how one would criticize a debate between one of the ago old battles between men and women. Women want you to leave the seat down, and men want to keep it up.

Men argue it's the same either way because if they discover it closed, they have to lift it to pee and women conversely have to lower it. Women argue that they miss it sometimes and it should be closed after it's been used else what is a toilet cover for? Men say if they miss it, they aren't paying enough attention to where they're going to sit down...after all, they don't piss on the cover do they? It seems to me that both sides have an equal bias and no one is "right", but I'm wondering if one side could win with a logical argument...

[Samuel]

Put it down. If it is up in the dark or someone isn't paying attention... it isn't fun. By contrast, if it is down for men, there is no problem for them.

[Broomstick]

Are you talking about the seat being down, or the lid being down?

If the lid is down everything is down and EVERYONE has to lift something to do their duty, which is arguing fairest of all from the standpoint that everyone is equally inconvenienced.

If the lid is up (or absent) we then have the question of convenience. Women ALWAYS have the seat down while using the toilet (except, perhaps, for vomiting but we aren't discussing that, are we? Just pissing and shitting, right?) so of course they favor that position. Men want the seat up to piss, and they piss far more often than they shit, so it makes sense men would favor leaving it up.

Hence the controversy.

Now, I've heard men argue that if a woman sits down with the seat still up she deserves to have her ass soaked in cold toilet water but this ignores the woman's point of view. See, men look at (or at least should look at) where they piss because they like to aim at things. This tendency is even exploited in some urinals to assist them in aiming accurately. So from a man's point of view it makes sense you would ALWAYS look before you piss. However, women do not have an aiming apparatus and, since they piss seated, never look at what they're pissing at (barring some weird gymnastic contortion). So a woman's point of a view is why on earth would you ever look at what you're pissing on? No only does she have no reason to do so, in order to look at her target would require uncomfortable contortions.

Hence the controversy.

Now, there are several ways to solve this conundrum. You could go by majority gender - in a household that has a majority of males they choose the default toilet seat setting, and in a household of females they choose the default. You could go with "equal inconvenience" and leave everything - seat and lid - down all the time so at least everyone would know what starting position the toilet is in. If Saturday morning hangovers are common leaving everything up might make sense from the standpoint of ease of clean up.

This, however, ignores that there may be other considerations. For example, leaving everything down, including the lid, helps keep objects from falling into the toilet bowl. It helps keep pets from drinking the toilet water. It keeps small pets from falling in and drowning. These are not universal concerns, but they are of concern in some households.

In my house, I want the lid down because the toilet is positioned near a window and, because we have untreated well water that has not been sterilized by chlorine, algae will grow in the toilet bowl if you leave the lid up. The plumbing is also prone to picking up hard water stains. The combination is... colorful. Even alarming. Like, alien invasion alarming. Cleaning the thing is MUCH easier without prokaryotic life forms inhabiting the fixture, as then I only have to deal with mineral deposits.

Other considerations might be that, if one party is disturbed by having lights turn on and off in the middle of the night then leaving the seat down might make the most sense in order to avoid shocked yelps and shrieks if, in the dark, the other party accidentally sits in water instead of on what was expected to be a seat. If one wants the seat up, then one must tolerate midnight lights in order to avoid such unhappy occurrences.

Have I really covered any logical fallacies? I don't know - but the controversy is usually presented from a biased viewpoint and without consideration of ALL factors that may be involved.

[Surlethe]

Is it potentially unsanitary for a woman to sit in toilet water? Especially if a family has, say, a "no flush at night" rule to avoid disturbing little ones, as my in-laws do?

My personal perspective is that it's no big deal to put the seat down; it's just a small thing I can do to make my wife's life a little bit nicer.

[Stark]

On the other hand, people will often claim that it's appalling and horrible for you not to do so.

[Broomstick]

Is it potentially unsanitary for a woman to sit in toilet water? Especially if a family has, say, a "no flush at night" rule to avoid disturbing little ones, as my in-laws do?

Well, YEAH! Urine isn't too bad (assuming no one has a bladder or kidney infection) but if someone left a log in the bowl, sure, it's unsanitary as hell. As soon as shit hits the bowl the water is contaminated by intestinal bacteria. Between normal flushing, the non-stick properties of porcelain, and assuming a reasonable cleaning schedule a quickly flushed piece of crap isn't going to leave much bacteria behind, but if it's just sitting there... If there's a no-flush rule in the house then, well, you might as well be rubbing shit on your crotch region. That's obviously not healthy and potentially could cause infections with things like E. coli in places that aren't intestinal tracts but are warm and moist.

Ew.

[Samuel]

Especially if your PJs get dipped into it as well.

[Stark]

Who sits IN water? Someone's toilet water level is WAAAAY too high. And getting your pants in it? Are you climbing in?

I mean, there's no fucking way sitting on the toilet itself is a good idea, but actually getting your pants wet?

[Samuel]

Who sits IN water? Someone's toilet water level is WAAAAY too high. And getting your pants in it? Are you climbing in?

I mean, there's no fucking way sitting on the toilet itself is a good idea, but actually getting your pants wet?

Hey, that was my mom's complaint when I used to use her bathroom. She could have been exaggerating for effect.

[Molyneux]

Who sits IN water? Someone's toilet water level is WAAAAY too high. And getting your pants in it? Are you climbing in?

I mean, there's no fucking way sitting on the toilet itself is a good idea, but actually getting your pants wet?

Sit without looking, and accidentally fall in. It's quite possible.
I may be somewhat biased, but I've never agreed with the arguments for leaving the seat up. Closing the toilet lid when it's flushed is simply more hygienic, and the amount of effort saved by leaving it up is dwarfed by the possible negative consequences of someone sitting without looking.

On the other hand, I can't stand stand-up urinals, so - biased.

[Stark]

The idea of someone 'sitting without looking' to me predicates the expectation the seat is there. Amusing, no?

The idea of someone actually putting their whole ass inside the toilet bowl is the funniest thing I've thought about ALL DAY.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

On one hand: Do people seriously have a problem with looking before they sit down? Maybe I'm weird, but I want to know what my butt's about to hit.

On the other hand: I've lived with elderly cats, and it was common practice to leave the lid closed so that one of them didn't accidently fall in and drown while trying to get a drink.

Final verdict: Getting too offended either way is silly, but for what it's worth, leaving it down is a little safer.

[Stark]

And some of the self-cleaning toilet stuff smells REAL messed up, so if it's in the bathroom it's best to keep it closed.

[Broomstick]

Who sits IN water? Someone's toilet water level is WAAAAY too high. And getting your pants in it? Are you climbing in?

I mean, there's no fucking way sitting on the toilet itself is a good idea, but actually getting your pants wet?

Stark, do I need to point out that some women are quite petite? Either that, or toilet bowls in your country are significantly smaller than in my country. With the seat up my ass does fit inside the toilet even if I'm not the smallest chick around. Hell, my HUSBAND's ass fits inside the toilet bowl if the seat is up. Granted, our toilet is probably as old as we are and from an era where they flushed with 22-23 liters at a time, newer models are less wasteful of water and slightly smaller of bowl.

Still beats that squat toilet I encountered in Clermont-Ferrond where your entire body could fall into the part that flushed, but there was no seat there to worry about. Just don't stand anywhere but where the footrests are.

[Stark]

It's not a bowl-size issue, it's a balance issue. It means people are descending at high speed in an uncontrolled fashion expecting the seat to stop them, without looking, and then blaming someone else. This is fine when you're drunk (who hasn't pissed into a closed toilet, lol), but it's no argument for what's 'best'. Just pay attention near toilets. It's good advice.

That said, I'm still not seeing how you can get your pants wet. Honestly. How high water level are we talknig? Even at the collar you'd have to be tiny and keep your pants on your thighs to get it wet.

[Broomstick]

It's not a bowl-size issue, it's a balance issue. It means people are descending at high speed in an uncontrolled fashion expecting the seat to stop them, without looking, and then blaming someone else. This is fine when you're drunk (who hasn't pissed into a closed toilet, lol), but it's no argument for what's 'best'. Just pay attention near toilets. It's good advice.

Well, yes, except my Other Half does have spina bifida which means he has problems walking, standing, and balancing on his feet even when sober. If I had my druthers we'd install a grab bar next to the toilet he could hang on to but for several reasons doing so in our current residence is not practical.

And, again, as I mentioned upthread due to physical configuration women don't need to look so to us it's not as obvious as it is to a man that the seat is up. I'm sorry you are having trouble making that cognitive leap but there it is. If you're in a hurry and only glance there's not that much difference between seat up or down in most instances. So the sequence is 1) glance, 2) hoist skirts/drop pants, 3) sit, and 4) SPLASH!

That said, I'm still not seeing how you can get your pants wet. Honestly. How high water level are we talknig? Even at the collar you'd have to be tiny and keep your pants on your thighs to get it wet.

SPLASH. You hit the water with your ass there's a good chance you'll splash.

Pants are a bit problematic, but skirts and dresses can drop/dangle into the water if you lose track of what is where. I've also known men unaccustomed to wearing kilts to dunk the back hem but that's less common as kilts are pretty short and men, as I pointed out, don't normally sit much on a toilet.

[Simplicius]

Here is a point that has not yet been raised here: aerosol contamination of other bathroom surfaces from flushing.

AIMS: To determine the level of aerosol formation and fallout within a toilet cubicle after flushing a toilet contaminated with indicator organisms at levels required to mimic pathogen shedding during infectious diarrhoea.

...Micro-organisms in the air were at the highest level immediately after the first flush (mean values, 1370 CFU m(-3) for Serratia and 2420 PFU m(-3) for MS2 page). Sequential flushing resulted in further distribution of micro-organisms into the air although the numbers declined after each flush. Serratia adhering to the sidewalls, as well as free-floating organisms in the toilet water, were responsible for the formation of bacterial aerosols.

Now, a toilet seat and lid are not airtight barriers and therefore one should expect some distribution of aerosolized bacteria regardless. However, a closed toilet lid ought to significantly alter the distribution of those bacteria by blocking the majority of the possible paths out of the bowl. And if you're going to close the lid to try and dampen the spread of bacteria, why put it back up afterward?

[TheLostVikings]

There is two reasons why I have never gotten this argument. The first is that every time you flush without closing the lid down you fill the entire room with tiny aerosolized shit-particles. And as most people I know have a toilet in the same room as their toothbrush, that automatically means anyone who doesn't like to brush their teeth with shit should always close the lid before flushing. No exceptions.

The 2nd reason is why the hell does anyone put the damn lid up in the first place? In nearly 30 years of peeing standing up I've only accidentally hit the lid a grand total of three times, so why even bother to put the lid up at all. If laziness was really the issue the lid should stay down permanently as there is never any reason to lift it up in the first place. (unless you have issues with your eyesight/motor control that prevent you from aiming properly)

I guess peoples obsessions with this will remain a mystery for me.

[Justforfun000]

LOL. I got the biggest laughs I've had in a while reading through the replies on this thread. Thanks all. You made my night.

Based on all of the excellent reasons brought forth from everyone, I now agree it's best to keep the lid down. I'm going to make an effort to always do this habitually.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

And, again, as I mentioned upthread due to physical configuration women don't need to look

The fact that sometimes the seat isn't down kind of blows that assertion out of the water. Claiming that you don't need to look presupposes that the seat will always be down for you.

so to us it's not as obvious as it is to a man that the seat is up. I'm sorry you are having trouble making that cognitive leap but there it is. If you're in a hurry and only glance there's not that much difference between seat up or down in most instances. So the sequence is 1) glance, 2) hoist skirts/drop pants, 3) sit, and 4) SPLASH!

I have a hard time believing this. The reason people don't fall into the toilet when the seat is down is because there is a big friggen horseshoe or doughnut-shaped seat in the way. It's at least twice as wide as the toilet rim, often even wider, usually made of a different material that is not as reflective, and sometimes even a different colour. I have a really hard time believing that someone who falls into the toilet looked but failed to notice the rim was only half as wide as before... as opposed to simply not looking at all.

If you have physical problems, that should be all the more reason to be *more* careful that the seat is down, rather than an excuse to be less careful.

The 2nd reason is why the hell does anyone put the damn lid up in the first place? In nearly 30 years of peeing standing up I've only accidentally hit the lid a grand total of three times, so why even bother to put the lid up at all. If laziness was really the issue the lid should stay down permanently as there is never any reason to lift it up in the first place. (unless you have issues with your eyesight/motor control that prevent you from aiming properly)

From the number of times I've seen droplets of urine on toilet seats, I'd hazard a guess and say that if your claims about aiming ability are true, then you're the exception to the rule.

[Broomstick]

And, again, as I mentioned upthread due to physical configuration women don't need to look

The fact that sometimes the seat isn't down kind of blows that assertion out of the water. Claiming that you don't need to look presupposes that the seat will always be down for you.

If a woman is mostly in woman-dominated situations then 90-99% of the time that seat WILL be done and she will start to think "seat down" as the default, leading her to expect that 100% of the time. Women growing up in female majority homes who, outside of the home, are using public restrooms for women will almost never encounter a seat that's up.

I wasn't cured of making hasty assumptions until I started hanging out at airports, a definitely male-dominated locale. In fact, one of the airports I was once based at had a toilet seat with a spring attached so it automatically raised up if you weren't sitting on it or holding it down (the owner said something about getting tired of cleaning piss off the seat, so...). I could hardly complain, as for two to three years most weekends I was the only woman on the field. Given the overwhelming male dominance the men's preference was going to rule. As long as I could still use the toilet I wasn't going to complain.

so to us it's not as obvious as it is to a man that the seat is up. I'm sorry you are having trouble making that cognitive leap but there it is. If you're in a hurry and only glance there's not that much difference between seat up or down in most instances. So the sequence is 1) glance, 2) hoist skirts/drop pants, 3) sit, and 4) SPLASH!

I have a hard time believing this. The reason people don't fall into the toilet when the seat is down is because there is a big friggen horseshoe or doughnut-shaped seat in the way. It's at least twice as wide as the toilet rim, often even wider, usually made of a different material that is not as reflective, and sometimes even a different colour.

Well, the seat in my bathroom is the exact same color and reflectivity as the rest of the toilet.

I have a really hard time believing that someone who falls into the toilet looked but failed to notice the rim was only half as wide as before... as opposed to simply not looking at all.

As I said - a QUICK glance, one not long enough to take in details. Essentially just "Oh, toilet there" and sit. Women never have to aim therefore we need not look at all. Again, a woman who exists mainly in woman dominated environments is more likely to fall prey to this. Women who share bathrooms with men are MUCH less likely to fall in because they aren't accustomed to a seat down default.

I can go over this again if you like, but I keep telling you that is how it is and your own experiences as a male result in a bias that is different than the bias that women have.

If you have physical problems, that should be all the more reason to be *more* careful that the seat is down, rather than an excuse to be less careful.

My husband can be as careful as he wants, sometimes his body just doesn't cooperate. That's one of the reasons disability sucks.

[Molyneux]

I have a hard time believing this. The reason people don't fall into the toilet when the seat is down is because there is a big friggen horseshoe or doughnut-shaped seat in the way. It's at least twice as wide as the toilet rim, often even wider, usually made of a different material that is not as reflective, and sometimes even a different colour. I have a really hard time believing that someone who falls into the toilet looked but failed to notice the rim was only half as wide as before... as opposed to simply not looking at all.

I'm a guy.
I have missed the fact that the seat was up and accidentally sat down (and fell into water) before.
Sometimes you're in a damned hurry.

[Darth Wong]

I'm a guy.
I have missed the fact that the seat was up and accidentally sat down (and fell into water) before.
Sometimes you're in a damned hurry.

The fact that it happened to you doesn't necessarily make it any less stupid. Even if you're a reasonably intelligent person most of the time, it was stupid not to check the toilet before sitting on it.

In our household, we do not have a "seat up" or "seat down" rule. To make such a rule in the first place is stupid because it might lead someone to think he or she can actually assume the state of the toilet seat without bothering to check. The rule in our house is "it could be up, it could be down, so you should look before you sit on it."

There is two reasons why I have never gotten this argument. The first is that every time you flush without closing the lid down you fill the entire room with tiny aerosolized shit-particles.

That's mostly an urban legend. Technically, tiny amounts of micro-organisms could get into the air, but we're not actually talking about globs of shit. People sneeze in the bathroom too, and they don't rush to sterilize the place afterwards.

Now, there are several ways to solve this conundrum. You could go by majority gender - in a household that has a majority of males they choose the default toilet seat setting, and in a household of females they choose the default. You could go with "equal inconvenience" and leave everything - seat and lid - down all the time so at least everyone would know what starting position the toilet is in. If Saturday morning hangovers are common leaving everything up might make sense from the standpoint of ease of clean up.

Sorry, but making a rule in the first place is an invitation not to check every time, which is foolish.

Women never have to aim therefore we need not look at all.

Yes you do, to make sure the seat is down. I also have to wonder what kind of person stumbles backward toward a toilet. Don't you walk toward the damned thing at some point? Do you actually back up into the bathroom and then flop blindly onto the seat?

If a woman is mostly in woman-dominated situations then 90-99% of the time that seat WILL be done and she will start to think "seat down" as the default, leading her to expect that 100% of the time.

And if a woman is mostly in situations with no kids, then she will expect that there will be no toys laying around on the floor. This doesn't mean it would be any less stupid to refuse to look where she's going.

[Darth Wong]

It seems to me that both sides have an equal bias and no one is "right", but I'm wondering if one side could win with a logical argument...

There is no logical argument to be had, because there is no agreed-upon criteria for selecting the correct course of action.

Frankly, this whole argument is childish and it's only applicable to people who have never had kids anyway. Once you have kids, you would not even dream of having such a tightly controlled household that you could seriously expect consistent compliance with rules like this.

[Andrew_Fireborn]

Myself, I'm in the "look before you leap," crowd. But I also tend to put it down after myself.

It's one of those cliche arguments, which is a clear sign of underlying issue in a relationship. Or at least a partner's personality.

Though, the main conflict here is between laziness and unawareness.

There is two reasons why I have never gotten this argument. The first is that every time you flush without closing the lid down you fill the entire room with tiny aerosolized shit-particles.

That's mostly an urban legend. Technically, tiny amounts of micro-organisms could get into the air, but we're not actually talking about globs of shit. People sneeze in the bathroom too, and they don't rush to sterilize the place afterwards.

I wouldn't quite call it an urban legend, so much as continuing germ-phobia run amok.