SD.Net World Redux Comment Thread VIII

[RogueIce]

And on this latest round of dickwaving, I decided to start my behind-the-scenes peace process, which was delayed due to RL factors. So once we hash out something it'll be presented. So let's try to not go so far we can't pull back. PeZook I assume you're using your neat little mailing list or whatever for this?

And on a semirelated note, I found it amusing that in the same thread where Stas' book writer person goes on about the evil Tian Xia/Old Dominion military industrial complexes, he makes three reports of various neat-o next-gen weapons systems being tested.

[PeZook]

So let's try to not go so far we can't pull back. PeZook I assume you're using your neat little mailing list or whatever for this?

Something is being worked out. Expect revelations tomorrow

And on a semirelated note, I found it amusing that in the same thread where Stas' book writer person goes on about the evil Tian Xia/Old Dominion military industrial complexes, he makes three reports of various neat-o next-gen weapons systems being tested.

You haven't seen much communist propaganda, have you?

[RogueIce]

You haven't seen much communist propaganda, have you?

*glances at nearest flagpole* Can't say that I have.

[DarthShady]

Tensions and dickwaving. Man I love this game.

P.S. Guys, I'm going to kill someone, I have like 30 PM's.

P.S.S. Paul check your PM's.

[Shroom Man 777]

Since Loinstar has denied fisheries in his dumb archipelago, Shroomania is basically gonna go with Cialan and help the Cialanese establish a massive ICE STATION WALRUS up at the Arctic with which to murder and process copious amounts of marine mammals - from Blue Whales to baby seals. For meat and fine furs, primarily for the decadent Shroomanian market. And, well, for the rest of CATO's bustling economies as well.

Yes.

Go do it, Bluewolf. Post pictures of dead baby seals.

[Beowulf]

Hey look! It's the Steve Shroomwin! *whaler blows up*

[Lonestar]

Since Loinstar has denied fisheries in his dumb archipelago, Shroomania is basically gonna go with Cialan and help the Cialanese establish a massive ICE STATION WALRUS up at the Arctic with which to murder and process copious amounts of marine mammals - from Blue Whales to baby seals. For meat and fine furs, primarily for the decadent Shroomanian market. And, well, for the rest of CATO's bustling economies as well.

Yes.

Go do it, Bluewolf. Post pictures of dead baby seals.

Ten years down the road when you fuckers are out fish, I shall be the one laughing.

[Bluewolf]

Who says I am going to let it get to that stage?

[Lonestar]

Hey man, IRL 90% of the fish population was removed since the 1950s, and there has been no effort made by anyone to really reverse that. Since the rules for this planet are "same as Earth unless otherwise noted" fish populations may already be below sustainable levels. It's already "at that stage".

[Bluewolf]

Well remember thats it not just fishing but seal hunting and some whaling. Those things have not been touched upon much really and its not as if the country can control fishing levels closely. We are not going for Captain Planet Villain style enviroment destruction here.

[Shroom Man 777]

Hey look! It's the Steve Shroomwin! *whaler blows up*

Crickey!

Yeah, SDNW nations must fight environmentalism! Or... umm... fight FOR environmentalism!

Goddamn, we're out of fish! Shit! We're fucked!

[Lonestar]

We're already at that point, you fool. And any country can "control fishing levels closely", especially considering the sizes of the various navies of the world.

[Bluewolf]

We can always wait for the next SDN g-

Err I mean we can just be careful.

[PeZook]

Or recreate fisheries with cloning!

Science FTW!

[Bluewolf]

I am actually amazed I have not seen more GM and Cloning in this game already.

[CmdrWilkens]

Uh, Stas? The Contiguous Zone != to territorial sea

The contiguous zone is of course not equal to territorial waters, but interception and action against unwarranted aircraft and illegal crossings in that zone is well permitted by UNCLOS. As for reasonable suspicion that the Dominion Hawks will conduct "infringement of its customs, fiscal, immigration or sanitary laws and regulations within its territory or territorial sea", I'm sure the NFT will find a legal clause that would support the fact that Dominion Hawks are breaking some sort of law or regulation.

And since it's hard to see how an aircraft can do any of those without intruding on the actual airspace of the NFT, you have no case.

It can. It's damn obvious the Hawks are taking pictures of stuff. It only takes a law to claim that they have been doing something illegal, and voila. Look:

Except that you missed the part immediately before the contiguous zone:

Immunities of warships and other government ships

operated for non-commercial purposes

With such exceptions as are contained in subsection A and in articles 30 and 31, nothing in this Convention affects the immunities of warships and other government ships operated for non-commercial purposes.

The important point here is that subsection A, and articles 30 and 31 deal ONLY with territorial waters, the contiguous zone is not defined until article 33. In other words all immunities of foreign warships are preserved in the contiguous zone. Boarding such a ship, destroying it, or otherwise detaining it is STILL a violation of the rights of the state to which it belongs.

[K. A. Pital]

Warships yes. Are Dominion Hawks warships? No, they are just a flying pollutant. *RAAAWWR!!!*

As for tensions, I hope Rogue can rein in the OD and Tian Xia. Because you know, after the Vineyards decided to join the MESS, we didn't constantly harass their coast with MiG drones or surround them with ASW ships to ping their submarines.

[CmdrWilkens]

Warships yes. Are Dominion Hawks warships? No, they are just a flying pollutant. *RAAAWWR!!!*

As for tensions, I hope Rogue can rein in the OD and Tian Xia. Because you know, after the Vineyards decided to join the MESS, we didn't constantly harass their coast with MiG drones or surround them with ASW ships to ping their submarines.

The Dominion Hawks are "a ship belonging to the armed forces of a State bearing the external marks distinguishing such ships of its nationality, under the command of an officer duly commissioned by the government of the State and whose name appears in the appropriate service list or its equivalent, and manned by a crew which is under regular armed forces discipline."

Now the fact that its an AIRship is an aside. It does in fact belong to the armed forces of the OD, bears appropriate markings, is under the command of a duly commissioned officer and its name/tail number appears in the appropriate service list, etc.

Oh yes and the total number of MESS-aligned vessels currently off the coast of the NFT is less than the number of oceangoing vessels Seige has in his Coast Guard...yet for some reason you've decided to send a CVBG down there.

[Siege]

Oh yes and the total number of MESS-aligned vessels currently off the coast of the NFT is less than the number of oceangoing vessels Seige has in his Coast Guard...yet for some reason you've decided to send a CVBG down there.

Do tell me, since when is my coast guard the measure of such things? My coast guard which, incidentally, has the entire northern coast of a whole continent to screen, whilst your warships specifically troll the port authority of the biggest commercial harbor in all of Frequesue?

[PeZook]

The Dominion Hawks are "a ship belonging to the armed forces of a State bearing the external marks distinguishing such ships of its nationality, under the command of an officer duly commissioned by the government of the State and whose name appears in the appropriate service list or its equivalent, and manned by a crew which is under regular armed forces discipline."

The Hawks are manned now? Wow, I'd never know...

Oh yes and the total number of MESS-aligned vessels currently off the coast of the NFT is less than the number of oceangoing vessels Seige has in his Coast Guard...yet for some reason you've decided to send a CVBG down there.

Yeah, because a CVBG operating near CATO naval bases is somehow on the same level as MESS warships of any kind hanging just off the territorial sea, pinging for submarines and trolling a port?

Tell you what, how about we send an SSGN loaded with a hundred missiles or so and have it sit 18 miles off Wilkonian shores, and then be all indigant when you send out a SAG to find it and chase it away?

After all, it's going to be just one ship

[Lonestar]

Yeah, because a CVBG operating near CATO naval bases is somehow on the same level as MESS warships of any kind hanging just off the territorial sea, pinging for submarines and trolling a port?

Or 4 PeZookian SSNs just moving carefree through OICAS waters... And yes, thanks to the sprawling SOSUS II I know they are there.

Tell you what, how about we send an SSGN loaded with a hundred missiles or so and have it sit 18 miles off Wilkonian shores, and then be all indigant when you send out a SAG to find it and chase it away?

After all, it's going to be just one ship

Or 4. Maybe I should start a sweep of the Impact Crater going after "Illegal Resource exploration craft"

[PeZook]

Or 4 PeZookian SSNs just moving carefree through OICAS waters... And yes, thanks to the sprawling SOSUS II I know they are there.

You know, setting up a patrol of 4 SSNs would be kind of hard for a country which doesn't operate any

If it's the SSGNs you mean, then what's the problem? You have more seagoing vessels in your coast guard than we have boats there, *I'm a smarmy asshole*?

Or 4. Maybe I should start a sweep of the Impact Crater going after "Illegal Resource exploration craft"

Go ahead and do it. Have fun, too, seeing they're hundreds of miles away from the archipelago and were explicitly told to stay outside weapons range. I wonder how the hell did you manage to build a network of SOSUS sensors this far out, though.

[Lonestar]

SOSUS II was(actually, it still is, so it isn't fully functional) implemented specifically to prevent CATO Subs from sneaking up and launching bioweapons-warhead-tipped cruise missiles without us knowing(the lesson of Shepistan weighs heavily on the OD). It's an enormously expensive expansion of the old SOSUS(which had been geared towards Shepistani threats). The network, when completed, will stretch hundreds of miles out from the North Coast of Shepland, in addition to creating a partial perimeter around the IC.

[CmdrWilkens]

The Dominion Hawks are "a ship belonging to the armed forces of a State bearing the external marks distinguishing such ships of its nationality, under the command of an officer duly commissioned by the government of the State and whose name appears in the appropriate service list or its equivalent, and manned by a crew which is under regular armed forces discipline."

The Hawks are manned now? Wow, I'd never know...

They are manned by the operators on the home vessel.

Oh yes and the total number of MESS-aligned vessels currently off the coast of the NFT is less than the number of oceangoing vessels Seige has in his Coast Guard...yet for some reason you've decided to send a CVBG down there.

Yeah, because a CVBG operating near CATO naval bases is somehow on the same level as MESS warships of any kind hanging just off the territorial sea, pinging for submarines and trolling a port?

Tell you what, how about we send an SSGN loaded with a hundred missiles or so and have it sit 18 miles off Wilkonian shores, and then be all indigant when you send out a SAG to find it and chase it away?

After all, it's going to be just one ship

If I shot down one of your bombers then refused to apologize for it then I would rather suspect such things are to be expected. I might not like it but then again I don't go shooting down planes without broadcasting warnings first. Also if you could manage to get an SSGN into those waters without an SSN sitting on its tail I'd be shocked so the disruption value is pretty low.

Likewise here the number of vessels given are over a huge expanse of coastline they cannot realistically interefere with any movement even a covert one as 18mi out still has a huge arc of potential traffic lanes out of the dozen or so military ports available to Seige. Its a nusiance and not much more, oh sure there is a real chance of getting a sub RIGHT NOW because his navigators haven't yet had the chance to figure out where to go to avoid them but any long duration patrol in that close in of a space won't do the job for long thus the reason why the response is so limited. Its freakin gnats buzzing around a picnic table: they tick you off even though they aren't actually materially affecting you.

[K. A. Pital]

Also if you could manage to get an SSGN into those waters without an SSN sitting on its tail I'd be shocked so the disruption value is pretty low.

You can, and most definetely will be able to send submarines without having "SSNs sitting on it's tail". Have a look. Most nations now operate "SSBN 2000" class or something similar to that.

Submarines are so silent they even collide unexpectedly in their patrol boxes. If an SSGN goes on silent cruise from the OC to it's patrol box somewhere near Wilkonia, it's unlikely you'll even know it was there.

And with a bigger coastline that chance is yet smaller; in Siege's case though, with his coastline being quite limited, pinging his subs and trying to figure out his patrol boxes may just have some success/

yet for some reason you've decided to send a CVBG down there.

The reason is simple - if you troll around, you'll be more careful.

P.S. And that's exactly why the UCSR group there is explicitly ONLY protecting the NFT assets - Lonestar would gladly have a conflict with the UCSR. I have "pinged" his intentions if you will.