Swedish parents raise their child without a gender

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Re: Swedish parents raise their child without a gender

Post by Simon_Jester »

Re: Starglider:
I agree.
Lord Woodlouse wrote:I'm presuming they're allowing "Pop" to choose by the time s/he is in a position to interact with other children.
That can't last forever, and it make the problem worse by fooling Pop into thinking that it's possible to deal with everyone in the world on one's own terms. As soon as Pop runs into children in an uncontrolled environment (or even an environment not directly controlled by Pop's parents), things are going to fall apart. And you can't raise a functional child in a social bubble that way.
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Eleas wrote:I'm sorry, but "the kid will be perceived as weird and be shunned" is a dog-whistle for reactionary conformism, nothing more. It can and has been applied to same-sex parents, mixed-race couples, parents wanting to raise their kids as atheists, or anything else the rest of society will perceive as being somehow off. Doesn't make it a valid argument.
I submit that this is a different case. In this case, the problem is not what the child is, but that the child is being deliberately raised with a complex.

And what happens if Pop, like most of the human race, does wind up adopting a strongly defined gender identity? It happens. Will the parents accept this gracefully? I suspect they will not; anyone who seriously expects to wind up with a more confident child this way is going to be very good at denial.
Meaning this experiment will probably only have modest effect, unless the parents opt to seclude the kid, and I see no indication of that in the article.
My real concern is that the parents are all too likely to keep trying to make the experiment work long after it has failed, trying to pressure the child into the wrong gender (the odds are very low that Pop will adopt "no gender").
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Re: Swedish parents raise their child without a gender

Post by Dooey Jo »

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:The kid is only fucking 2.5 years old. They may be capable of being able to differentiate between this and that, but the subtle nature of gender? This is like asking the kid to do multiplication when he barely knows numbers.
What the fuck are you talking about? They're not asking the kid to do anything, and that's precisely the point. If the kid is a male who doesn't know that he "should" like to wear blue and instead wants to wear pink, how is that a problem?
SancheztheWhaler wrote:If we had been dumb enough to try and raise him in a gender neutral fashion, we would have had to take the toys he likes playing with away and force him to play with things he didn't care for.
So by not forcing the kid to play with anything in particular, they are somehow forcing the kid to play with things it shouldn't like to play with? That's hilarious.
Starglider wrote:the notion of gender is built into every human language
Yeah, if by "every human language", you actually mean "most Indo-European languages".
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Re: Swedish parents raise their child without a gender

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SancheztheWhaler wrote:Imbeciles - one of my son's first words was "car" and from a very early age he was far more interested in cars, dirt, blocks, and other stereotypically "male" toys. He had no interest, and still has no interest, in dolls, dresses, or any girly stuff, much to my wife's disappointment. If we had been dumb enough to try and raise him in a gender neutral fashion, we would have had to take the toys he likes playing with away and force him to play with things he didn't care for.

There are definitely environmental factors that affect gender selections, but simple biology is far more influential (at least in the case of my son).
Biology doesn't make you like cars or dolls. I don't see why you'd have to remove things he already likes and force him to play with anything else, and even if they do that, it's no worse than being poor, where you play with what you're given.

I don't think this is a great idea, and I don't think even the parents can even understand all the things they do subconsciously to reinforce gender roles. Frankly, I agree with Dooey, this does seem pretty harmless. You can give discipline and love to a kid without demanding it act a certain "gendered" way. It will act that way anyway if gender's as straightforward as people think. Once he meets the outside world, the demands for acting a certain way will flood in and it'll require enormous strength on the child's part to continue doing what he wants rather than conforming to the herd (which the parents sound like they'll comply with as it'd be his wish).

As an aside, I would expect near 100% of genderbending freaks like myself to have a normal background as far as this stuff goes. I still have a load of my toys upstairs in a drawer somewhere; no dolls, lots of cars, dinosaurs, action figures, lego, guns. I think giving kids the whole gamut of toys for their own imagination to use accordingly won't be that bad.
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Re: Swedish parents raise their child without a gender

Post by Agent Sorchus »

More on why this is dishonest reporting.

wikipedia on David Reimer's suicide
Reimer had to deal with the death of his brother...unemployment and separation from his wife Jane
The original dishonest Article (not Wiki) wrote:David Reimer denounced the experiment as a crushing failure before committing suicide at the age of 38.
Another thing to note about this article is that it deliberately attaches those two statements to make one believe that they are related when (as most articles that mention his suicide note) he had a lot of other things that prompted it. This article is deliberately hidding the fact that his twin brother had died the year before, he had lost his job, and he was undergoing a trial separation with his wife.

Nova transcript about David Reimer
Nova episode: differences in the brain wrote:NARRATOR: In the 1990s, Professor Swaab's team began to study the brains of transsexuals to see if there was some structural reason for their particular gender identity. He focused on the region of the hypothalamus where he had first noticed sex differences between male and female brains.

After years of work, he found what he was looking for. In a tiny portion of the hypothalamus, the male transsexual brains looked similar to the female brains from his control group. It seemed clear to Swaab that this similarity between male transsexual brains and females brains could prove important in defining gender identity.

DICK SWAAB: I think if we look to the entire set of data, it's clear that we are not born neutral, that our sex difference is present already very early in development.

NARRATOR: Swaab's work with transsexual brains is controversial, in part because it has not yet been replicated. But some of his earlier work showing sex differences between the brains of males and females has been confirmed. But the significance of these findings remains to be seen.

ANNE FAUSTO-STERLING: This established sex difference in the brain is an anatomical difference, and quite frankly no one knows what it means in terms of behavior. It might well have something to do with the different kinds of physiology involved with the production of sperm versus the production of eggs. There's no evidence that it has to do with behavior per se, which doesn't mean to say there might not be some evidence in the future. But at the moment no one really knows what that little group of cells does.
So their is one difference in the brain that has been discovered that hasn't (as of 2001) been reproduced that has a good likelihood that this has nothing to do with learned behavior.
wikipedia Hypothalamus article wrote:The hypothalamus is responsible for certain metabolic processes and other activities of the Autonomic Nervous System. It synthesizes and secretes neurohormones, often called hypothalamic-releasing hormones, and these in turn stimulate or inhibit the secretion of pituitary hormones. The hypothalamus controls body temperature, hunger, thirst, fatigue, and circadian cycles.
So we see differences in the regulation system for hormones between males and females and has some importance for transgendered male :arrow: females. It does not seem too surprising that there are differences in hormones between the genders, so why is it surprising that there is a difference in the regulation?

Really there is no harm coming to the child and there is no reason to think that the child is going to have any problems at all. The kid is simply going to be a little different (which is not a crime no matter how much some people think it should be) and have had a lot more chances to express her/his' preferences.

I think that this kid is actually quite gifted, because the parents are willing and able to provide for any whim of this kid. The gut reaction that this article has fueled completely ignores that the parents are doing this out of love for the kid.
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Re: Swedish parents raise their child without a gender

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

A.S., I'm afraid that's false. There was a follow-up study which confirmed those results.

Exactly as you can see here
Current Thinking Regarding the Etiology of Gender Dysphoria

December, 2002.

This is taken in part from a paper I wrote in 2001. It was originally published in Gender and Psychoanlysis, An Interdisciplinary Journal, Vol. 6 No. 2, Spring 2001.

Although the reason some people suffer with gender dysphoria can not yet be declared outright, there is a growing body of evidence that Gender Identity Disorder (GID) as described in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual IV (1994) is at least in part, the result of insufficient or inappropriate androgenization of the brain at a critical stage of embryonic development. As a result, the affected individual may be left with between a partial and a full sense of having a cross-sexed gender identity. It is this difference that may be the root cause behind an overwhelming need to transition.

Evidence of sexual differentiation of the brain has been documented in at least three different areas of research: physical measurement, case reports involving ablatio penis, and 5-alpha reductase deficiency. A fourth, behavioral theory called autogynephilia, describing how a strong desire to transition from male-to-female develops, is also noted below.

Measurement: Zhou J.-N, et al. (1997) examined the volume of the central subdivision of the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc), and found that a female-sized BSTc was found in male-to-female transsexuals. This led them to declare that a female brain structure exists in genetically male transsexuals, supporting the hypothesis that gender identity develops as a result of an interaction between the developing brain and sex hormones.

In a follow-up study KRUIJVER et al. (2000) wanted to know if the reported difference according to gender identity in the central part of the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc) was based on a neuronal difference in the BSTc itself or a reflection of a difference in vasoactive intestinal polypeptide innervation from the amygdala. To do this they looked at 42 subjects to determine the number of somatostatin-expressing neurons in the BSTc in relation to sex, sexual orientation, gender identity, and past or present hormonal status. They found that regardless of sexual orientation, men had almost twice as many somatostatin neurons as women. The number of neurons in the BSTc of male-to-female transsexuals was similar to that of the females, while the neuron number of a female-to-male transsexual was found to be in the male range. Hormone treatment or sex hormone level variations in adulthood did not seem to have influenced BSTc neuron numbers. They go on to declare that their " findings of somatostatin neuronal sex differences in the BSTc and its sex reversal in the transsexual brain clearly support the paradigm that in transsexuals sexual differentiation of the brain and genitals may go into opposite directions and point to a neurobiological basis of gender identity disorder."

Historical reports involving ablatio penis : There are two reported cases in which one twin of identical twins lost his penis in a circumcision accident shortly after birth. In both cases, believing that gender identity was primarily culturally learned, doctors advised the parents to rear the boy who had lost his penis as a girl. (Money, 1975). However, in both cases, despite their female rearing and the introduction of feminizing hormones at puberty, the children eventually rejected their assignment as female and are now living their adult lives as males. Diamond, M,. (1982); Diamond, M. & Sigmundson, H.K. (1997)

5-Alpha Reductase Deficiency: This is a situation in which a 46XY genetically male child is born with such significantly undeveloped male genitalia that he is assigned and reared as female. 5 alpha-reductase is an enzyme that converts testosterone into dihydrotestosterone, an androgen that is needed for the completion of the differentiation of male genitals in utero. Despite the lack of the enzyme, these individuals retain androgen receptivity and the ability to synthesis testosterone. As a consequence, at puberty they develop male secondary sex characteristics and, in a significant number, revert to the masculine gender role. Imperato-McGinley, J., Peterson, R.E., & Gautier, T., & Sturla, E., (1979).

Autogynephilia: A fourth hypothesis is behavioral based. The name for this condition is autogynephilia; the love of one's self as a woman. The term was introduced into the literature by sexologist Ray Blanchard (1989a, 1989b) and was further developed by physician and sexologist Anne Lawrence (1998). Neither Blanchard nor Lawrence claim that the condition causes gender variant behavior. Instead they show quite clearly that for a majority of genetic males who are gender dysphoric, a life long behavior of sexual self gratifying experiences ( masturbation tied to crossdressing tied to fantasizing of one's self as a woman) may play a strong role in entrenching an overwhelming desire to transition.

It should also be noted here that the treatment regimen for gender dysphoria (HBIGDA, Standards of Care) calls for the introduction of cross-sex hormones as the second phase of a triadic treatment plan. Genetic males receive large doses of estrogens and genetic females receive large doses of androgens (testosterone). In virtually every case in which the individual is truly transgendered, there is a marked sense of relief from anxiety. It is as if there are receptor sites in the brain of these individuals that are starved for the cross-sex hormones their body is otherwise unable to provide for them.

As a consequence I have taken as my working theory that the gender variant condition is physiological in origin, that it is an innately anxious condition and that it must be addressed by phisical and/or psychological means if the individual is to attain peace of mind.



GENERAL REFERENCES

Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders IV. 4th ed. (1994), Washington, D.C. : American Psychiatric Association.

Diamond, M. (1982), Sexual identity, monozygotic twins reared in discordant sex roles and a BBC follow-up. Archives of Sexual Behavior, 11, 181-186.

Diamond, M., & Sigmundson, H. K. (1997), Sex reassignment at birth: Long-term review and clinical implications. Archives of Pediatrics and Adolescent Medicine, 151, 298-304.

Blanchard R. PhD (1989a), The classification and labeling of nonhomosexual gender dysphorics, Archives of Sexual Behavior, Vol. 18, No. 4, 315-334.

Blanchard R. PhD (1989b), The concept of autogynephilia and the typology of male gender dysphoria. The Journal of Nervous and Mental Disease. Vol. 177, No. 10, 616-622.

Imperato-McGinley, J., Peterson, R. E., Gautier, T., & Sturla, E. (1979), Androgens and the evolution of male-gender identity among male pseudohermaphrodites with 5-alpha reductase deficiency, New England Journal of Medicine, 300, 1233-1237.

Kruijver, Frank P. M., Zhou Jiang-Ning, Pool Chris W., Hofman Michel A., Gooren Louis J. G. and Swaab Dick F. (2000), Male-to-female transsexuals have female neuron numbers in a limbic nucleus, J Clin Endocrinol Metab 85: 2034&endash;2041.

Lawrence A., (1998), "Men trapped in men's bodies:" An introduction to the concept of Authgynephilia, http://www.annelawrence.com/autogynephiliaoriginal.html

Money, J. (1975), Ablatio penis: Normal male infant reassigned as a girl. Archives of Sexual Behavior, 4, 65-71.

Vitale A., (2001), Implications of Being Gender Dysphoric: A Developmental Review, Gender and Psychoanlysis, An Interdisciplinary Journal, Vol. 6 No. 2, Spring 2001, pp 121-141.

Zhou J.-N, Hofman M.A, Gooren L.J, Swaab D.F (1997), A sex difference in the human brain and its relation to transsexuality, Int J Transgenderism 1,1, http://www.symposion.com/ijt/ijtc0106.htm.
So yes, the original Zhou, Hofman, Gooren, and Swaab study of 1997 was repeated in the year 2000 with the addition of two further researchers (a Frank P. M. Kruijver and a Chris W. Pool) who had not been involved in the original study, and this subsequent study with a larger sample size and fresh research talent had identical results to the first. Note that even though the author pays far to much attention to the rather disgusting autogynephilia theory of A. Lawrence which is responsible for a lot of transphobic bigotry, the result is still the same; a dismissal of all but a physiological cause for transsexualism resultant from brain differences.

Also the study can only be performed after an autopsy on a dead person, and because transexuals usually go very deep stealth after transitioning and never bring up their status again, and are only a fraction of a percent of the population anyway, the difficulty of further studies or getting a truly huge sample should be obvious; but within these limitations a sample size almost thrice that of the original was procured, additional researchers added to the team, and the experiments came up with the same conclusion with the other researchers concurring.
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Re: Swedish parents raise their child without a gender

Post by paladin »

The things some parents will do just to pull a practical joke on their child.
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Re: Swedish parents raise their child without a gender

Post by Samuel »

This lasts until the child needs to use the bathroom in Kindergarden.
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Re: Swedish parents raise their child without a gender

Post by Erik von Nein »

They're not raising the kid without a sex they're raising them without a gender. There are differences.

I can't say how much success they'll have. I'm worried they'll run into the problems transexuals have, with people seeing one sex acting like a gender opposite of the norm and how people typically react to that.
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Re: Swedish parents raise their child without a gender

Post by Big Phil »

Dooey Jo wrote:
SancheztheWhaler wrote:If we had been dumb enough to try and raise him in a gender neutral fashion, we would have had to take the toys he likes playing with away and force him to play with things he didn't care for.
So by not forcing the kid to play with anything in particular, they are somehow forcing the kid to play with things it shouldn't like to play with? That's hilarious.
I'm going to assume you don't have children of your own? Otherwise, you would know that children often self-select toys and play with them however they like. In my son's case, regardless of the type of toy, when about a year old he would use it as either a drum or a hammer - the louder the better. His early toys included wooden blocks, musical instruments (a drum, a keyboard, castinets, etc.), stuffed animals, and cars; other than the cars, hardly toys that were obviously masculine, but he played with them in a very masculine manner (i.e., beating the crap out of them and making as much noise as possible). My niece, by way of contrast, prefers dolls and hugs them, cuddles them, feeds them, puts them down for naps, etc., probably copying her own mother. This is a girl being raised by a mother and father who both race motocross and aren't particularly effeminate.

Do you get what I'm saying? It's not the toys so much as how the child plays with them. Once they get to a certain age, however, they are very aware of their surroundings and understand (at some level) what cars are, what sounds planes make, the difference between babies and adults, etc., and trying to enforce gender neutrality is going to require forcing the kid in some ways.
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Re: Swedish parents raise their child without a gender

Post by Sute »

SancheztheWhaler wrote:Do you get what I'm saying? It's not the toys so much as how the child plays with them. Once they get to a certain age, however, they are very aware of their surroundings and understand (at some level) what cars are, what sounds planes make, the difference between babies and adults, etc., and trying to enforce gender neutrality is going to require forcing the kid in some ways.
Exactly which lines in the article make you think Pop's parents are trying to enforce gender neutrality on Pop? I went back and reread the article, and I couldn't find anything like that. They provide clothing of both sexes, and Pop is usually the one who chooses what to wear. They say that Pop will decide when it's time for the project to end, so it doesn't sould like they're going to force Pop to go along with something Pop isn't comfortable with. The parents are trying to prevent the outside world from enforcing gender stereotypes on Pop so that Pop can develop as Pop wishes. My reading of the article is that they aren't trying to force Pop to use boy things and girl things equally; they're just providing the choice and trying to keep others from meddling.
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Re: Swedish parents raise their child without a gender

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Sute wrote:
SancheztheWhaler wrote:Do you get what I'm saying? It's not the toys so much as how the child plays with them. Once they get to a certain age, however, they are very aware of their surroundings and understand (at some level) what cars are, what sounds planes make, the difference between babies and adults, etc., and trying to enforce gender neutrality is going to require forcing the kid in some ways.
Exactly which lines in the article make you think Pop's parents are trying to enforce gender neutrality on Pop? I went back and reread the article, and I couldn't find anything like that. They provide clothing of both sexes, and Pop is usually the one who chooses what to wear. They say that Pop will decide when it's time for the project to end, so it doesn't sould like they're going to force Pop to go along with something Pop isn't comfortable with. The parents are trying to prevent the outside world from enforcing gender stereotypes on Pop so that Pop can develop as Pop wishes. My reading of the article is that they aren't trying to force Pop to use boy things and girl things equally; they're just providing the choice and trying to keep others from meddling.
I get what you're saying about "preventing the outside world from enforcing gender stereotypes." They say as much themselves: "their decision was rooted in the feminist philosophy that gender is a social construction."

The problem is they're idiots if they think gender is 100% a social construction and not biological. Children under the age of 3 generally don't select their own clothing - they really don't give a shit what they wear (well, less clothing seems to be preferred). Pop has undoubtedly already displayed gender preferences in how it plays with toys and with others. Furthermore, as many others have pointed out, Pop is going to be very confused when he/she gets to school (as a boy) wearing a dress and all of the other boys are wearing pants and shirts. Just like Commander-in-Chimp leading us into Iraq, these parents are leading their it into a world of hurt for their own silly ideology. I doubt the child will be traumatized for life, but these are horrible, horrible parents to be willfully and knowingly doing things that will cause their child pain in the future.
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Re: Swedish parents raise their child without a gender

Post by TheLostVikings »

SancheztheWhaler wrote:Furthermore, as many others have pointed out, Pop is going to be very confused when he/she gets to school (as a boy) wearing a dress and all of the other boys are wearing pants and shirts. Just like Commander-in-Chimp leading us into Iraq, these parents are leading their it into a world of hurt for their own silly ideology. I doubt the child will be traumatized for life, but these are horrible, horrible parents to be willfully and knowingly doing things that will cause their child pain in the future.
Which leads to the important question... does pops dad wear a skirt half the time? Because if pop is a boy that is already a huge pointer right there, and if pop is a girl it doesn't really matter jack shit as a girl wearing pants and a t-shirt doesn't exactly raise any eyebrows...
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Re: Swedish parents raise their child without a gender

Post by Darth Wong »

Frankly, this experiment will probably have little or no effect on the child's development until it enters school. They can let Pop wear pants one day and dresses the next (hell, the ancient Greco-Roman males all wore dresses) but it won't change the fact that it will have to interact with other kids sooner or later, and those kids will want to know its gender. Moreover, the child will want to self-identify with one of the two dominant groups on the playground, those being boys and girls. Humans are social creatures: something these parents have apparently forgotten. Once the child starts to interact with other kids, it will either develop severe social problems or it will start self-identifying with one of the two groups. The only way to avoid this is to enforce social isolation on the kid, which would be even worse.

Realistically, all they're doing is forestalling the inevitable, and ensuring that when the gender identification DOES eventually come, the child is more likely to be traumatized or confused in the process. That first day of school is going to be very difficult for this child. How are they even going to explain things like which bathroom the kid is supposed to use?
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Re: Swedish parents raise their child without a gender

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SancheztheWhaler wrote:I doubt the child will be traumatized for life, but these are horrible, horrible parents to be willfully and knowingly doing things that will cause their child pain in the future.
The problem is that they're thinking primarily of what is "right" by their moral code, and not what is best for the child's social development. Rather than putting the child first, they are putting their own ideology first.

In that way, they are pretty much identical to religious people who impose all sorts of rules on their children which set them apart from society, and who similarly claim they're actually doing it for the child's own benefit.

I would agree that they're horrible parents, and in that same vein, I would also say that Jehovah's Witnesses are horrible parents. Actually, these two are not as bad as Jehovah's Witnesses because they will probably back down when reality starts pushing back, whereas Jehovah's Witnesses won't.
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Re: Swedish parents raise their child without a gender

Post by Big Phil »

Darth Wong wrote:
SancheztheWhaler wrote:I doubt the child will be traumatized for life, but these are horrible, horrible parents to be willfully and knowingly doing things that will cause their child pain in the future.
The problem is that they're thinking primarily of what is "right" by their moral code, and not what is best for the child's social development. Rather than putting the child first, they are putting their own ideology first.

In that way, they are pretty much identical to religious people who impose all sorts of rules on their children which set them apart from society, and who similarly claim they're actually doing it for the child's own benefit.

I would agree that they're horrible parents, and in that same vein, I would also say that Jehovah's Witnesses are horrible parents. Actually, these two are not as bad as Jehovah's Witnesses because they will probably back down when reality starts pushing back, whereas Jehovah's Witnesses won't.
Yeah, I thought about drawing the comparison to parents who force religion down their children's throats, but it didn't really seem necessary. You're probably right about religious wackos not backing down, too.
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Re: Swedish parents raise their child without a gender

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SancheztheWhaler wrote: I get what you're saying about "preventing the outside world from enforcing gender stereotypes." They say as much themselves: "their decision was rooted in the feminist philosophy that gender is a social construction."
Look on the bright side, at least these idiot parents haven't decided to raise their kid to believe that gravity is a social construct by letting him or her jump off the roof.
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Re: Swedish parents raise their child without a gender

Post by Bilbo »

Was giving their child a stupid name like Pop part of the experiment because they wanted to make sure the child didnt have a name associated with either gender? Or is this just a genderless nickname given the kid to hide gender.

In advance I am assuming Pop is not a common Swedish name. If it is then I retract what I say and apologise.
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Re: Swedish parents raise their child without a gender

Post by His Divine Shadow »

The article clearly states the name pop is made up by the paper, the real name of the child is unknown.

Oh and pop is not a swedish name.
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Re: Swedish parents raise their child without a gender

Post by Darth Holbytlan »

Darth Wong wrote:Realistically, all they're doing is forestalling the inevitable, and ensuring that when the gender identification DOES eventually come, the child is more likely to be traumatized or confused in the process. That first day of school is going to be very difficult for this child. How are they even going to explain things like which bathroom the kid is supposed to use?
I don't know about Sweden, but every family home I've been in had unisex bathrooms, often with little privacy among family members. I don't see how this will add to the normal confusion all of the kids will be facing, unless the parents fail to teach Pop which word means his gender.

I see only two major points of confusion: clothing, if Pop hasn't worked out which clothes match his/her gender; and language, since Pop won't be used to anyone referring to him using gendered pronouns.

All bets are off if the parents start forcing gender neutrality on Pop against his/her preference.
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Re: Swedish parents raise their child without a gender

Post by TheLostVikings »

Darth Holbytlan wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Realistically, all they're doing is forestalling the inevitable, and ensuring that when the gender identification DOES eventually come, the child is more likely to be traumatized or confused in the process. That first day of school is going to be very difficult for this child. How are they even going to explain things like which bathroom the kid is supposed to use?
I don't know about Sweden, but every family home I've been in had unisex bathrooms, often with little privacy among family members. I don't see how this will add to the normal confusion all of the kids will be facing, unless the parents fail to teach Pop which word means his gender.
I'm pretty sure most Swedish schools doesn't come with unisex bathrooms as standard...
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Julhelm
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Re: Swedish parents raise their child without a gender

Post by Julhelm »

Actually they do.
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Darth Holbytlan
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Re: Swedish parents raise their child without a gender

Post by Darth Holbytlan »

TheLostVikings wrote:
Darth Holbytlan wrote:
Darth Wong wrote: That first day of school is going to be very difficult for this child. How are they even going to explain things like which bathroom the kid is supposed to use?
I don't know about Sweden, but every family home I've been in had unisex bathrooms, often with little privacy among family members. I don't see how this will add to the normal confusion all of the kids will be facing, unless the parents fail to teach Pop which word means his gender.
I'm pretty sure most Swedish schools doesn't come with unisex bathrooms as standard...
That was kind of the point. None of the kids would be used to using gendered bathrooms. Of course, if Julhelm is right than the entire issue is moot. The kids will all just use the bathroom like normal, including Pop.
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Julhelm
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Re: Swedish parents raise their child without a gender

Post by Julhelm »

Well it's admittedly anecdotal evidence, but I've never been to a school here with gendered bathrooms. Of course the lockerrooms in the sportshall are gendered since they have showers, but AFAIK even then we didn't start using gendered lockerrooms until 3rd grade.
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Re: Swedish parents raise their child without a gender

Post by Darth Wong »

So? How does all of this nitpickery change the point? All you're doing is postponing the inevitable. At some point, the child must be confronted with gender. It is inevitable, and these parents' attempt to shield the child from this reality are futile and stupid.

Look, the bottom line is that what the parents are doing is keeping their child ignorant of society. That's what this all boils down to: there is a particular aspect of society which they find distasteful, and rather than teach their child that they disagree with it and why, they think they can just keep their child ignorant of its very existence for as long as possible, and that this will somehow make the child's life better.

It's like a radical feminist version of sexual puritanism, where parents try to "shield" their kids from knowledge of sex. Ignorance is not a solution to anything, and make no mistake: ignorance is what the parents are promoting.
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Re: Swedish parents raise their child without a gender

Post by Simon_Jester »

Would it be possible to raise a child with a neutral gender identity without keeping them ignorant of what the general culture's gender identity options are?

Now that I think about it, I kind of doubt it. I speculate that it might be hard to explain something to a child so that they will understand it without convincing them of it, since children are rather suggestible. I'd appreciate comments on that speculation from someone with parenting experience.
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