SD.Net World Redux Comment Thread VIII

[RogueIce]

As for tensions, I hope Rogue can rein in the OD and Tian Xia. Because you know, after the Vineyards decided to join the MESS, we didn't constantly harass their coast with MiG drones or surround them with ASW ships to ping their submarines.

The Vineyards didn't blow up any Japanistani weather stations, either. Something the MESS knows about and now, thanks to me sharing it with PeZook, so will you.

I am not a mindreader and I haven't specifically asked, but it wouldn't surprise me if these various acts by the OD and TX are in response to that. EDIT: At least to some extent, anyway. We all know Lonestar and Beowulf can be jerks as well.

I hope you guys do something about that, by the way.

[Siege]

I hope you guys do something about that, by the way.

It would appear you missed the bombshell comrade Shay dropped on king Paul, yes?

[RogueIce]

I hope you guys do something about that, by the way.

It would appear you missed the bombshell comrade Shay dropped on king Paul, yes?

This is what happens when you read OOC first, yes.

In any case, that could be a problem. Antagonizing Japanistan is not something we'd look kindly on. You weren't there, but the rest of us have memories of the UAR launching an all out assault on the world by the flimsiest of reasons, not to mention the shit that went down in Terra Libertia before. So we'd be a touch paranoid about a repeat of such a thing happening, especially with a much clearer cassus belli (relative to what touched off Global Thermonuclear War last time, anyway) like taking out that weather station.

If you're not at least willing to take some kind of token action regarding that issue, we're gonna have problems. Launching cruise missiles at Japanistan and just saying "well fuck 'em" is not something that is going to sit easy with any of us. Even if it doesn't play a role in the current de-escalation process, it'll be one of those things in the background, and I'm sure even nice guys like Coyote will be very wary of CATO in the end.

EDIT: And since when did Shady get a last name? I always thought his last name was Shady and we just never knew his first name.

[PeZook]

It would appear you missed the bombshell comrade Shay dropped on king Paul, yes?

BTW, check the "Turning the screw..." thread in the mailing list and give us a piece of your mind.

And yeah, Paul will be asking that you people please don't go blowing up Japanistanis in the future.

[Siege]

So we'd be a touch paranoid about a repeat of such a thing happening, especially with a much clearer cassus belli (relative to what touched off Global Thermonuclear War last time, anyway) like taking out that weather station.

This I understand, and I think it's safe to say no-one wants to see the world go up in mushroom clouds. However we do now have two nations with reliable intelligence that this weather station was anything but -- we have our intel, which has been mentioned, and Shady had his, which lead him to ask us to blow it up. That's gotta count for something.

I'm not saying the NFT's not willing to make a gesture of some kind, I'm all for de-escalation... But what I'm not going to do is accept some sort of black sheep position here. I might not be blameless, but I'm not solely to blame for all the shit that's gone down off Frequesue's coasts either, and any solution to our predicament better reflect that notion.

Besides, right now MESS nations are making a bigger deal about the loss of Japanistani lives than Japanistan itself, and you bet that's doing nothing to quell the paranoia in the NFT. What do you think would happen if NFT intelligence were to find out that Wilkonia provided information to Japanistan regarding the whereabouts of our submarines? How are we to take that?

EDIT: And since when did Shady get a last name? I always thought his last name was Shady and we just never knew his first name.

Turns out when you ask him you get more accurate information than when you assume things .

[DarthShady]

And yeah, Paul will be asking that you people please don't go blowing up Japanistanis in the future.

Only when it is absolutely necessary my friend.

EDIT: And since when did Shady get a last name? I always thought his last name was Shady and we just never knew his first name.

Turns out when you ask him you get more accurate information than when you assume things .

I came up with the name, a while ago, just never bothered to mention it. And nobody except Siege ever asked.

[RogueIce]

I came up with the name, a while ago, just never bothered to mention it. And nobody except Siege ever asked.

I figured 'President Shady' indicated, well, [Firstname] Shady. We don't call the POTUS 'President Barack', after all.

Besides, I preferred my way of referring to you: President Slim Shady.

[K. A. Pital]

The Vineyards didn't blow up any Japanistani weather stations, either.

I should take that as the MESS being in cahoots with Japanistan? The MESS caring for Japanistan arms smuggler deaths? The MESS harassing nations which act against Japanistan? Or all three?

Tell me again why is the MESS concerned about the Japanistani deaths? Did Japanistan blackmail you into basically going to NFT coasts with ships and drones? If so, let me remind you that CATO has far superior capabilities for blackmailing as far as I'm concerned. And greater capacity for bribes as well.

I don't understand really, so what? If the Vineyards attacked a Japanistan outpost, I doubt CATO would care at all. And we wouldn't care regardless of the fact if they did it covertly OR openly. So that is not any sort of excuse.

If the NFT bumped off OD smugglers on that island, that would be different of course. But it wasn't an OD outpost.

[CmdrWilkens]

The weather station is in no way the proximate cause (aside from the fact it made Seige's guys jumpy). If the NFT had actually apologized for shooting down the OD bomber without warning and in international airspace then we could care less.

So real quick:
1) Nobody in CATO would have the slightest clue that I provided info to Japanistan.
2) In turn any action taken with that as justification is a misuse of OOC information.
3) The NFT shot down a plane in international airspace without warning
4) They refused to apologize
5) The OD and TX sent a few ships to dick around because of #4 above
6) OH NOES THE WORLD IS ENDING RUSH A CVBG!!!!

[PeZook]

Oh come on. They refunded the damn bomber!

And you forgot the bit when the OD initiated a freakin' trade embargo on shaky grounds.

[K. A. Pital]

The weather station is in no way the proximate cause

Then Rogue should stop using it, else you look completely strange in any political debate. Oh by the way, you're the guy who spoonfed Japanistan that it was the NFT who destroyed their smuggler's den, right?

If the NFT had actually apologized for shooting down the OD bomber without warning and in international airspace then we could care less.

Who the hell cares? It wasn't even a KAL-007 or Vincennes like incident. It was a military aircraft which was making agressive gestures and it was downed. The OD should eat that. A lot of US aircraft were downed in "international airspace" by the Soviet PVO, that didn't cause the world to collapse. The USSR never apologized for downing these military craft either. Likewise, China just recently downed a US spy plane in 60-80 miles from the coast, never apologized and even demanded apologies from the US. Nothing happened. No one apologized.

If the OD can't suck it up, too bad for them. They shouldn't have jingo jocks in Japanistani or former Shepistani planes running around.

Nobody in CATO would have the slightest clue that I provided info to Japanistan.

Have we brought that up, either OOC or IC? No. Do we care? No. Do we want Beowulf and Lonestar the hell out of the North Frequesuan Seas? Yes, yes, and YES PLEASE.

6) OH NOES THE WORLD IS ENDING RUSH A CVBG!!!!

You were sending CVBGs around before during local conflicts and now you're claiming we're rushing? Ouch. That was the pot calling the kettle black, did I get that idiom correct?

[CmdrWilkens]

Oh come on. They refunded the damn bomber!

And you forgot the bit when the OD initiated a freakin' trade embargo on shaky grounds.

Its not a trade emargo, its a refusal to grant access to his EEZ. Fine I'll add that back in as #6 with OH NOES CVBG as #7 but it doesn't change that the OD has requested an apology and so far they are getting rebuked. I'll say it right now if CATO were to come out an request the NFT apologize I would lead the call for the OD and TX to back off.

[Raj Ahten]

Does everyone really need to argue about who is more justified here? Several people have already made the point that the reasons behind sending ships in to ping subs or shooting down drones are merely pretext and that such incidents can be manufactured as desired. The real reason behind all this is that the MESS and CATO have it in for each other (possibly due to a lack of mutual respect?), and since the differences weren't settled at the disastrous MESS/CATO conference I foresee a hell of a lot more dick waving over whatever the current crisis is that month.

Only problem with that is eventually someone is going to get an itchy trigger finger. On the other hand, such cold war shenanigans are probably very fun to role-play.

edit: for typos.

[K. A. Pital]

Apologize for WHAT?!!! Downing a military provocator aircraft!!?!! When a lot of nations did it IRL and nothing followed?

*head explodes*

You know, paying one soldo per dead crewman as an insult to the Old Dominion does seem a more fitting way to deal with these spoiled brats.

If their, or your, I don't really know whose masterful provocation idea was that, national leader decides that next time he will send a civilian airliner on a reconaissance mission, or god forbid on an attack vector against a military vessel ike a FFG or DDG, guess what? We'll DOWN THAT. You'll have another Vincennes, and another and another and another until you understand that NO APOLOGIES WILL EVER BE MADE FOR SOMETHING THAT WAS NOT AN ERROR, and especially when the craft in question was NOT A CIVILIAN CRAFT.

its a refusal to grant access to his EEZ

Really? Refusal to grant access to his EEZ? Hey look, how about Siege would establizh the North Frequesuan Air Defense Idenification Zone (NFADIZ) with the rules that "any aerial military craft that is heading towards the landmass of Frequesue" is to be downed ASAP? That would have as much legitimacy as Lonestar's ridiculous posturing.

Hey quick, let's call the ICAO to settle the dispute! Oh wait, I forgot - the last CATO-MESS conference exploded because you guys couldn't even work out a unified approach among yourselves. Wow!

[CmdrWilkens]

The weather station is in no way the proximate cause

Then Rogue should stop using it, else you look completely strange in any political debate. Oh by the way, you're the guy who spoonfed Japanistan that it was the NFT who destroyed their smuggler's den, right?

I did spoon feed it to them...so? IC you can't know which means nobody would be acting on it aside from myself, the IRT and the Japanistanis. In other words for all IC purposes the attack has no bearing since nobody knows about it. Also I have not used it nor, near as I can tell have Beo or Lonestar. If RI did then that's a whoops but the two nations you are pissing in their cornflakes haven't used it.

If the NFT had actually apologized for shooting down the OD bomber without warning and in international airspace then we could care less.

Who the hell cares? It wasn't even a KAL-007 or Vincennes like incident. It was a military aircraft which was making agressive gestures and it was downed. The OD should eat that. A lot of US aircraft were downed in "international airspace" by the Soviet PVO, that didn't cause the world to collapse. The USSR never apologized for downing these military craft either. Likewise, China just recently downed a US spy plane in 60-80 miles from the coast, never apologized and even demanded apologies from the US. Nothing happened. No one apologized.

If the OD can't suck it up, too bad for them. They shouldn't have jingo jocks in Japanistani or former Shepistani planes running around.

That's your opinion, the position of Wilkonia is that an apology is warranted as IC we have no equivalent precedent. You can disagree with it but that is our position.

6) OH NOES THE WORLD IS ENDING RUSH A CVBG!!!!

You were sending CVBGs around before during local conflicts and now you're claiming we're rushing? Ouch. That was the pot calling the kettle black, did I get that idiom correct? [/quote]

Actually go back, I just did a search to check my memory, but the last time I forward deployed a CVBG was during the One Week and then the BioWar. I have regular patrols which may shift course a little but I haven't surged my Carrier TFs nor have I redeployed them locally since that point. So I'm wondering where you are get this pot kettle black thing. (Go do a search for my username and Carrier, CVBG, Battle Group, Task Force, hell just about any combination). So in other words yes I will claim you are rushing since the last time I did the same was back in Story Thread 2 against Shep.

[K. A. Pital]

I did spoon feed it to them...so?

So nothing, and no CATO nation has used that either OOC or IC as justification for anything if you look at the posts. Just a little ray of sympathy from the MESS, right?

That's your opinion, the position of Wilkonia is that an apology is warranted

Well, comrade King of Wilkonia, go call the NFT Board of Directors then and tell them you want them to apologize before the OD. I doubt they would, but you can still try.

IC we have no equivalent precedent

Really? Haven't Shep and Lonestar routinely do it during their tensions? And in any case, who cares?

So I'm wondering where you are get this pot kettle black thing.

When I'm saying "you" I mean the MESS, and you guys DO send CVBGs and surface attack groups centered around LPHs around. If you need examples, I'll dig it up.

Okay! I did. Scroll back to what was it, 23.07.2016 in game (or early April IRL), and here we have a conflict between Costa and Baerne, with Baerne having pretty damn solid reasons to attack Costa. It seemed like a conflict between Baerne and Costa, but Beowulf casually sends a taskforce:

TXN TF4 arrives on station:
TXNS Vengeance (CVN)
Invincible (CVL)
Genswick (CGN)
2 DGN-52
1 DGN-93
2 DG-51
2 FG-40
2 SSN-500

OUCH. Want any further proof that sending carriers is sort of a modus operandi for you? What's up MESS dudes, don't like when people actually play the same way you do? Oh, and actually - Beowulf sent two carriers. I guess I was lenient by only asking Shady to dispatch the "Comrade Stanislav" CVN, we should throw in another Ulyanovsk or at least a small Kiev class. After all, Beowulf didn't see that as excessive to show the flag in support of the Costa government.

[Steve]

As I recall both sides in the Cold War occasionally shot down opposing military aircraft that strayed too close to their airspace or otherwise appeared hostile. I agree that the OD has no basis for demanding an apology. They dispatched a bomber to Frequesuan seas with orders to not have IFF active and it was their own pilot's unreasonable intransigence that resulted in said code staying off when challenged by an NFT naval vessel... whom he proceeded to make an aggressive maneuver toward.

The OD created this crisis and permitted it to expand by acting petulant when Siege didn't bend over like a good Principality assbitch.

[Shroom Man 777]

So fuck the OD. None of the CATO powers go out of their way to antagonize the MESS. But apparently this littlest of courtesies isn't reciprocated not one bit.

[Siege]

'll say it right now if CATO were to come out an request the NFT apologize I would lead the call for the OD and TX to back off.

Not gonna happen.

I can't make it any more clear than that, and I did that a long time ago too -- Sidney Hank told Lord Fairfax exactly how far he was willing to go, and Farfaix threw it back in his face with his ridiculous demands. That's your fucking loss, not mine. I'm not going to be bullied around anymore, and damn the consequences.

[DarthShady]

I'll say it right now if CATO were to come out an request the NFT apologize I would lead the call for the OD and TX to back off.

Apologize? Fuck NO. Enough is enough. You're the ones starting shit and trying to bully CATO Members, and you want us to apologize. Like Siege said, it's not gonna happen. The last time that this shit happened, I was willing to make concessions in the interest of avoiding Global Thermonuclear war, and now you guys go and do it again. Well fuck that.

The OD created this crisis and permitted it to expand by acting petulant when Siege didn't bend over like a good Principality assbitch.

This is exactly the kind of behavior that sickens me, the fucking higher than thou attitude of certain players towards others. If there is no respect shown to others, then they won't get any respect shown to them. I personally have had enough. How many times does the MESS think they can do shit like this, before one of us blows and pushes the big red button? Unless that is what they want...

[Lonestar]

As I recall both sides in the Cold War occasionally shot down opposing military aircraft that strayed too close to their airspace or otherwise appeared hostile. I agree that the OD has no basis for demanding an apology. They dispatched a bomber to Frequesuan seas with orders to not have IFF active and it was their own pilot's unreasonable intransigence that resulted in said code staying off when challenged by an NFT naval vessel... whom he proceeded to make an aggressive maneuver toward.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. The B-89 was never challenged by the NFT vessel. Upon being targeted with a fire-control radar it dove and accelerated in order to get under it quickly.

[Steve]

As I recall both sides in the Cold War occasionally shot down opposing military aircraft that strayed too close to their airspace or otherwise appeared hostile. I agree that the OD has no basis for demanding an apology. They dispatched a bomber to Frequesuan seas with orders to not have IFF active and it was their own pilot's unreasonable intransigence that resulted in said code staying off when challenged by an NFT naval vessel... whom he proceeded to make an aggressive maneuver toward.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. The B-89 was never challenged by the NFT vessel. Upon being targeted with a fire-control radar it dove and accelerated in order to get under it quickly.

I dunno, I consider being targeted a challenge, and that's usually when you turn away and immediately radio them to identify yourself.

[Lonestar]

I dunno, I consider being targeted a challenge, and that's usually when you turn away and immediately radio them to identify yourself.

If you're being targeted, typically the options are(1) attack the fire control radar and (2)get out of radar coverage quickly. I freely concede that number #2 can appear to look like #1 on occassion, especially if the goal is to exit the radar coverage as quickly as possible.

But it doesn't detract from the targetting of a plane moving at a constant speed and bearing in international waters without so much as a "Unknown plane moving at bearing blah blah blah identify yourself or we will be forced to take defensive measures."

[Lonestar]

Speaking of planes acting aggressively with no IFF Transponders on, the Iranian P-3 did that every Goddamn day when I was on deployment in the GOO.

[K. A. Pital]

The NFT FFG didn't have the experience of harmless prop-driven recon planes of the "Iranians" constantly harassing him; and he also thought it was a Japanistani craft. Needless to remind you that Japanistan has nuclear weapons and advanced missiles, right? It wasn't a P-3 which is a recon plane. It was a god damn bomber and you know that. I mean, come on - the USS Vincennes shot up a civilian airliner from Iran. Did Iran go to war with the USA? Nop.

The ODAF has had it's share of "exercises" in vinicity of the NFT. Stop harassing them. Same applies to the TXAF, TXN and ODN.