Since 1975, 274 children died in the US because of prayer

[wautd]

Courts face new challenge in faith healing cases

Lesser-known religions raise thorny legal issues when it comes to sick kids

NASHVILLE, Tennessee - Most U.S. states have child abuse laws allowing some religious exemptions for parents who shun medicine for their sick children, but a few recent cases highlight thorny legal issues for parents following less-recognized faiths.

Existing laws have gradually accounted for more well-known and established faiths, such as Pentecostalism, Christian Science and Jehovah's Witnesses.

But recent cases in the news have judges and child care advocates dealing with parents who claim adherence to lesser-known faiths, such as the Minnesota family following an Internet-based group's American Indian beliefs, and an independent church in the western state of Oregon that has been investigated in the past for the deaths of members' sick children.

Legal and religious scholars say it's becoming more difficult for courts to decide when to honor the religious beliefs of parents and when to order conventional medical treatment for extremely sick children.

The manslaughter trial of an Oregon couple who claim they were following their religious beliefs in the 2008 pneumonia death of their 1-year-old daughter began Monday. Carl and Raylene Worthington are members of Followers of Christ Church, which has been investigated for past child deaths.

In Tennessee, Jacqueline Crank and her minister Ariel Sherman face child neglect charges in the death of her 15-year-old daughter Jessica, who died in 2002 with a basketball-sized tumor on her shoulder. Prosecutors say based on Sherman's advice, the girl's mother relied on prayer instead of medicine.

Sherman has been accused of being a cult leader whose Universal Life Church is not a legitimate religion. He has denied such charges and says the church is Christian-based and embraces the Bible.

Believers in faith healing point to a Biblical verse in the Epistle of James, which describes how church elders should be called in to pray over the sick. There's no mention of doctors, and literalists interpret it to mean medical treatment should be eschewed over prayer.

Exemption law 'too vague'
Gregory P. Isaacs, an attorney for Crank, who is out on bond, argues that Tennessee's religious exemption law is untested and too vague.

"It really has a tremendous amount of problems," Isaacs said. "What is an organized religion and what is an ordained minister? What illnesses can you attempt to heal by faith? Those are the two pitfalls in the statute. That's not what's really clear."

Jim Dwyer, a William and Mary Law School professor who has written articles about and participated in litigation on the topic, said it is often more complicated for courts to discern cases with unaffiliated religions because judges and juries aren't as familiar with them and are skeptical of their legitimacy.

Sincerity and skepticism
"The Supreme Court has adopted a very broad definition of religion," Dwyer said. "But ... you have to show sincere religious beliefs. Some judges might be skeptical of sincerity if it's something they've never heard of, if the person says, 'I don't belong to a certain church. I just have some beliefs that I saw on the Internet,' or 'In our own home, we've developed this set of beliefs.'"

Dr. Ellen Wright Clayton, a pediatrician and co-director of the Center for Biomedical Ethics and Society at Vanderbilt University, says when treatment for an illness is very toxic and the prognosis is dire, courts tend to rule parents don't have to pursue medical treatment. If that's not the case, courts are likely to order the treatment.

"Until medicine became effective, there was no push to say we absolutely have to do medical treatment. There wasn't this notion of deference (to religion) until medicine began to work and to become institutionally powerful."

Besides the states that have religious exemption laws, five states — Hawaii, Maryland, Massachusetts, Nebraska and North Carolina — have repealed such laws.

Internet-based religious groups
Many of the exemption laws were enacted in the 1970s. Rita Swan, director of the Sioux City, Iowa-based advocacy group Children's Healthcare is a Legal Duty, which lobbies states to repeal such laws, said that since 1975, there have been at least 274 known cases of U.S. children who have died after medical care was withheld on religious grounds.

She says the majority of such cases are still associated with established denominations like Pentecostalism, though "the Internet has opened up some more possibilities than it did before" and there have been some cases involving unaffiliated denominations.

At least two recent high-profile cases involve parents whose beliefs were drawn from Internet-based religious groups.

Authorities in Minnesota convinced a judge to force 13-year-old Daniel Hauser into chemotherapy, prompting his mother Colleen to skip a court hearing and — with her son in tow — go on the run for nearly a week in May.

They headed to Southern California, where they considered a trip into Mexico for alternative cancer treatments, before eventually returning to the Hausers' home. The boy has since received chemotherapy treatments, which appear to be working.

The family prefers natural healing practices suggested by an Internet-based group called the Nemenhah Band, which says it follows American Indian beliefs.

[Darth Ruinus]

Simply don't allow any religious exemptions. I think it's incredibly silly that some people are seriously arguing that some beliefs, which are as equally outrageous and unfounded and disconnected from reality, can't receive the exemption that the larger ones can. How did this religious exemption thing even start? The child is much more important than some idiot parents belief system.

[CaptJodan]

The child is much more important than some idiot parents belief system.

Good luck convincing some parents of that. Remember that many variations of Christianity teach (and subsequently many parents believe) that you should love God before and above loving your child.

[Justforfun000]

This is such a contentious issue,...I do believe that you should have the right to refuse "standard" medical treatments and go the less validated alternative medicine route because anectdotal or not, the fact remains that people have been cured doing unorthodox treatments.

However, a blanket refusal to look at conventional treatments with the excuse of a religous belief that holds no water as to it's efficacy is where I draw the line. Particularly with kids...it's not right that parents with strong beliefs that are contrary to good medical science should be able to determine what is the allowed treatment of said children. I believe that people need to be protected from the stupidity of others in many situations, and this would certainly qualify.

[Narkis]

This is such a contentious issue,...I do believe that you should have the right to refuse "standard" medical treatments and go the less validated alternative medicine route because anectdotal or not, the fact remains that people have been cured doing unorthodox treatments.

This is only contentious because people are idiots. Did you miss this thread on this very board about a $2.5 billion US study of alternative medicine that discovered none of the "cures" work?

I'm with Ruinous in this one. Religious exemptions shouldn't be allowed, period. Why is it so easy for people to see the ridiculousness of other religious beliefs but not their own?

[Simon_Jester]

Do you have the right to refuse treatment for yourself, if not for your children?

[Justforfun000]

This is only contentious because people are idiots. Did you miss this thread on this very board about a $2.5 billion US study of alternative medicine that discovered none of the "cures" work?

While this might seem like a particularly damning piece, I've seen far too many positive studies on alternative medicine, and even though it's not useful as scientific evidence, real world anectdotal cases where people did things against the grain and came out ahead. There are numerous cases of people with terminal conditions that have done alternative methods and have been cured. It's not understood why and the individual case cannot be used as "proof" of a method, but all that matters is to THAT person, their choice was vindicated. It's why I feel the choice should always be there. Medical science is one of the most complex and elusive branches of science imaginable. While they know a lot, there's a lot more they don't know.

[Samuel]

I'm guessing placebo and remission.

[Eris]

This is only contentious because people are idiots. Did you miss this thread on this very board about a $2.5 billion US study of alternative medicine that discovered none of the "cures" work?

While this might seem like a particularly damning piece, I've seen far too many positive studies on alternative medicine, and even though it's not useful as scientific evidence, real world anectdotal cases where people did things against the grain and came out ahead. There are numerous cases of people with terminal conditions that have done alternative methods and have been cured. It's not understood why and the individual case cannot be used as "proof" of a method, but all that matters is to THAT person, their choice was vindicated. It's why I feel the choice should always be there. Medical science is one of the most complex and elusive branches of science imaginable. While they know a lot, there's a lot more they don't know.

The plural of anecdote is not data. While I'm very happy that people have gotten better, for whatever reason, the fact remains that humans are terrible at pattern spotting. Or rather, we're way too good at it, and find the ones we want whether or not they happen to exist. A choice is not vindicated if the underlying causation is not understood, and while it may seem nice that the person feels good about their decision, if it's an erroneous one - and they often are, especially so with the laity and medicine - it can have serious consequences in future when they pass along this bad data.

As for the studies - you yourself point out that science is complex and elusive. Did you read and understand these studies, to the point that you could give a good evaluation of the science and study design that went into them, along with a meta-evaluation of the statistics that went into them? There's plenty of junk science out there, especially with regards to "alternative medicine." (A silly term - there is medicine that works, and medicine that doesn't.) The alt medicine industry is massive, and there are very large lobbies that sink lots of money in trying to make their products look as official as possible, and it's very easy to be misled by studies that don't mean much at all, or even just to accept a well-intentioned but poorly constructed study, or misinterpret one whose results are complex or subtle.

Perhaps I'm reading the wrong journals, but I cannot remember reading a single positive study on alt medicine that stands up to a rigourous scrutiny. If I'm misguided, I'd of course appreciate to be pointed in the right direction of those studies.

[frogcurry]

Why does the parent have any role in the childs healthcare decisions in the first place, regardless of what their beliefs or values are? Its not the parent that's the one who is at risk. Being a parent doesn't mean you own your child, you have a duty of care etc and some rights that come with being a persons closest relative and loved one, but not the right to decide how they are looked after medically. Healthcare isn't like education, upbringing or other optional/ variable elements, where a parents choice might be less than ideal but shouldn't leave you completely at a loss even if screwed up.

You are either healthy and alive or not, and should have all means of state assistance to achieve that status (healthy and alive that is) that are practical and economic regardless of what any relative of yours might feel.

(That said, I'll admit to be an extremist on this sort of issue, as I'm generally against patients having the right to deny or end their own treatment in life-or-death medical cases, never mind giving anyone else the power of decision over them.)

[Broomstick]

Do you have the right to refuse treatment for yourself, if not for your children?

Competent adults in the US have the right to refuse any and all medical treatment, even that required to preserve life for any and all reasons - even stupid ones. Competent adults also have the right to state who can act on their behalf should they become incapacitated, but transfer of parental rights of that nature over minor children require the actions of a court of law. Children have no say in who their parents are, nor are they capable of truly making their own decisions. Hence, they should be afforded additional legal protections over adults.

[Broomstick]

Why does the parent have any role in the childs healthcare decisions in the first place, regardless of what their beliefs or values are? Its not the parent that's the one who is at risk. Being a parent doesn't mean you own your child, you have a duty of care etc and some rights that come with being a persons closest relative and loved one, but not the right to decide how they are looked after medically.

Historically (and by that, I mean over the entire history of the human race) the parents were those most likely to have the best interests of the child in mind. Doesn't mean they always did, or that even when they did their decisions were good ones, but parents are those most likely to give a damn about a kid. Thus, in the absence of evidence to the contrary parents are assumed to be the strongest advocates for their children. This even extends to adoptive parents - the assumption being that if you voluntarily assume the role of parent you, again, have the best interests of the child in mind. The fact this is not always the case is why we have legal recourse for exceptions, but such exceptions are rare.

You are either healthy and alive or not, and should have all means of state assistance to achieve that status (healthy and alive that is) that are practical and economic regardless of what any relative of yours might feel.

I disagree that health is such a binary state of being.

(That said, I'll admit to be an extremist on this sort of issue, as I'm generally against patients having the right to deny or end their own treatment in life-or-death medical cases, never mind giving anyone else the power of decision over them.)

When you have sat beside the beside of a dying person for whom medical science can do nothing, wiping their ass, changing their diaper, changing soiled sheets, getting up a dozen or more times during the night to turn them over to keep parts of their skin from dying an ulcerating, trying to determine if a person who can't talk is in pain or frightened or both, trying to guess if dying nervous system is causing their limbs to tremble or if they're cold despite the warmth of their hands and feet, watching their limbs turn grey as their circulation slows to lethal inaction, watching fungus attack parts of their body and eat them alive as their immune system falters - when you have done that THEN come back here and make that statement.

Or, like my sister or my old college roommate, look down at someone who's limbs have been burned away, who is blind and whose face is destroyed to the point that their will never eat or speak again, who can no longer express human emotion due to their muscles and nerves being so utterly destroyed, who face years of surgeries and rehab to achieve a state of...what? Tell me that that level of suffering is justifiable.

Or, as I did once, spent several weeks taking care of someone who's bones have rotted from cancer to the point that turning them over breaks limb bones that will never heal, where simply breathing can break their ribs, where attempting to eat can break their jaw. Seriously, you think no one should be permitted to end further treatments in such cases and simply given pain medication until they die rather than dragging out such torture? Do you really believe that?

Pardon me for thinking you a naive sadist.

Go volunteer at a hospice for awhile and see for yourself what "life or death" medicine really looks like, up front and personal.

[Isolder74]

Go volunteer at a hospice for awhile and see for yourself what "life or death" medicine really looks like, up front and personal.

Done and done.

I'd rather not talk about it as it's rather depressing.

[Broomstick]

While this might seem like a particularly damning piece, I've seen far too many positive studies on alternative medicine, and even though it's not useful as scientific evidence, real world anectdotal cases where people did things against the grain and came out ahead. There are numerous cases of people with terminal conditions that have done alternative methods and have been cured. It's not understood why and the individual case cannot be used as "proof" of a method, but all that matters is to THAT person, their choice was vindicated. It's why I feel the choice should always be there. Medical science is one of the most complex and elusive branches of science imaginable. While they know a lot, there's a lot more they don't know.

I'm guessing placebo and remission.

The one and only serious study of "miracle cures" that I've encountered looked into this. The only common denominator they found among the miracles was that the patients had made a significant and sudden change - a complete revamping their diet, for example, or some elaborate exercise program, or something equally jarring in regards to lifestyle. The conclusion was largely inconclusive but speculated that perhaps it was the fact of sudden, significant change that jolted the body into healing itself (cancer remission, recovery from auto-immune disorder, whatever) and not the particular change in and of itself. In which case some of the cures from things like conventional chemo or radiation treatments for something like cancer may be due in part to the sudden change/shock induced, but even if so, the "shock cure" isn't frequent enough to be statistically significant. If it happens to you, congratulations, you won the lottery, but it's nothing to stake your life on if you're newly diagnosed with a horrible disease or condition.

[Singular Intellect]

(That said, I'll admit to be an extremist on this sort of issue, as I'm generally against patients having the right to deny or end their own treatment in life-or-death medical cases, never mind giving anyone else the power of decision over them.)

What the fuck makes you think you have any right to dictate whether or not a person can decide for themselves if they get treatment or not, die or not?

There are plenty of cases where, if denied the right to die or refuse treatment because of positions like yours, myself and others would outright accuse you of advocating torture.

[frogcurry]

(That said, I'll admit to be an extremist on this sort of issue, as I'm generally against patients having the right to deny or end their own treatment in life-or-death medical cases, never mind giving anyone else the power of decision over them.)

What the fuck makes you think you have any right to dictate whether or not a person can decide for themselves if they get treatment or not, die or not?

There are plenty of cases where, if denied the right to die or refuse treatment because of positions like yours, myself and others would outright accuse you of advocating torture.

This is off-topic from the subject of the thread, but I'll respond since two of you have moaned at me:

In answer to both your response and that of Broomstick: I have 3 reasons. 1) that they are potentially unable to make a rational decision at the time as they may not understand the choice before them properly due to drugs and pain (see below), and a literal life/ death decision can't be fixed if wrong, 2) because its so subject to abuse by all involved (suicidal/ depressed patients, stressed medical personnel, unhappy relatives), and 3) because if they are going to die anyway I don't really see the benefit in accelerating the process.

As for the accusation of naivety and torture....I've seen at third-hand someone go through a milder version of this after being run over. He pretty much couldn't stand what he went through at the time, ended up morphine dependent, and if you'd given him the right to die at that point I think he'd have taken it due to the constant pain, repeated infections and mental health problems. He's alive and well today and has a more active life than I do. Sometime the patient doesn't know best. Using the most extreme cases you can find as your argument to call me naive or cruel is a bit of a strawman, 90% cases aren't going to be that extreme.

[Broomstick]

I have 3 reasons. 1) that they are potentially unable to make a rational decision at the time as they may not understand the choice before them properly due to drugs and pain (see below), and a literal life/ death decision can't be fixed if wrong

However, at least in the US, a person does have the ability to state their preferences beforehand, when they are not drugged or in pain or in an altered mental state. The general default is that medical personnel will act to save a life. However, when a person is incapacitated relatives may be consulted for extreme cases. When my mother was not mentally competent we still tried to talk to her and ask her to express an opinion which would be considered when make a decision.

2) because its so subject to abuse by all involved (suicidal/ depressed patients, stressed medical personnel, unhappy relatives)

On the other hand, keeping someone alive when that means unremitting pain and no hope of improvement is not a kindness or mercy if the person doesn't want to continue such an existence.

3) because if they are going to die anyway I don't really see the benefit in accelerating the process.

As many medical treatments actually increase discomfort/pain, in the terminally ill it is not justifiable. Properly administered pain medication will either not hasten death, or only hasten it slightly - but the benefit of relieving suffering in the terminally ill is generally seen as such a positive that dying a few days earlier than otherwise is usually seen as tolerable. Hospice does not "accelerate" death, indeed, patients in hospice can receive considerable care during their final days, including surgery when appropriate (to debulk tumors, for example, or unblock something that gets blocked) but such treatment is solely to relieve suffering, not to accelerate death (where did you get the notion that anyone is doing that?). What is absent is treatments that are meant as cures, because such people are judged to be beyond curing so why administer things like chemo or radiation that will do nothing to help them but WILL make them feel even worse that they would if left alone?

As for the accusation of naivety and torture....I've seen at third-hand someone go through a milder version of this after being run over. He pretty much couldn't stand what he went through at the time, ended up morphine dependent, and if you'd given him the right to die at that point I think he'd have taken it due to the constant pain, repeated infections and mental health problems. He's alive and well today and has a more active life than I do.

That's the best you can do? Something third hand?

I have sat beside the dying and held her hand as she breathed her last, as her heart stopped, as her hand began to cool after months of caring in a very direct way, of being involved in making some very, very hard decisions and making some tremendous and heart-wrenching commitments. That is the most direct instance - I have also, as I mentioned, be one of the people struggling to shift someone dying of bone cancer, whose skeleton was literally fragmenting from day to day, and finally hour to hour. Nothing third hand, I have first hand experience

The default should be to preserve life, but there ARE valid exceptions. Sometimes the patient DOES know best. Some people want to go down fighting every inch of the way - and I fully support their right to that. I don't think that if someone expresses a desire for death that we should drag them outside and shoot them immediately - such decisions MUST be reviewed and scrutinized, but there are times when saying "stop" really is the best decisions.

Using the most extreme cases you can find as your argument to call me naive or cruel is a bit of a strawman, 90% cases aren't going to be that extreme.

More like 99% - but that 1%, although small, is every bit as important as the 99% where it isn't that serious.

[Justforfun000]

Sorry to resurrect this thread a bit but I somehow missed the responses...

I understand and agree that a lot of alternative medicine is not only suspect but in many cases, sheer bunkem. I'm totally with you on there being much better well-designed studies and research into finding what really works and what doesn't. But you have to understand that there is so much promising possibilities out there that have some decent preliminary evidence behind them which although not the most ideal, are sometimes enticing enough for individuals to use certain treatments..particularly when they seem to show little to no side effects. Now I've had a few people on this board chime in with their belief that a lot of alternative and herbal medicine is NOT free of side effects and this has been overexaggerated..and maybe this is true to a degree...but there is STILL many products and substances that seem to be in general more benign in nature than many pharmaceutical drugs.

For example...Just to go through exactly how I come across such things laboriously so you can understand..

There is a company that's Canadian actualy called AOR..it stands for Advanced Orthomolecular Research. They have many advanced combination formulas with many very interesting ingredients that when I do research on them, I actually find reputable evidence backing some of their claims and seem to be very promising. And this is just one example..it happens to be the most recent as I just bought a product that I will completely explain below as my example.


A snippet from their "About Us" page...

http://www.aor.ca/html/about_aor.php

Advanced Orthomolecular Research (AOR) has an established reputation in Canada as the most advanced supplement formulator in the country - and likely, the world. Mainstays of the supplement market today - such as glucosamine sulfate for joint structure and S-adenosylmethionine (SAMe) for support of balanced mood and thought patterns - were first brought to the Canadian market by AOR. And the company has continued to innovate over the years, making its line consistent in its record of putting science-backed natural health products into the hands of health practitioners and into the lives of patients years ahead of their secondary acceptance by the mainstream dietary supplement industry.

Now the product in question I bought is their formula called Orho Mind 1.0.

Their personal page explaining it is here: http://www.aor.ca/html/products.php?id=111

Now it's fairly long, and I encourage you to go there and read it yourself..I'm more interested in showing you what happens when I do a search on the individual ingredients to look for any reptuable backing of their claims...as this is more interesting to me than a company's personal publicity for the product.


This is a particularly interesting ingredient:

Vinpocetine:

http://priory.com/focus15.htm

Introduction

Ethyl apovincaminate (Vinpocetine) is a vincamine derivative has been used in the clinical practice for over 25 years for the treatment of cerebrovascular disorders and related symptoms. The effects of vinpocetine on cerebral blood flow, brain metabolism, memory functions, and its neuroprotective action have been confirmed in the past years in numerous animal experiments and human studies.
The aim of the present paper is to review the preclinical and clinical studies on vinpocetine.
Pharmacological properties

Vinpocetine exerts a brain neuroprotective effect by a combined action on cerebral circulation, brain metabolism, and rheological properties of the blood. Kiss and Karpati (1996) summarized the pharmacological studies on vinpocetine. Early experiments showed an improvement of the cerebral circulation and oxygen utilization without changes in systemic circulation, cerebral protection in conditions of hypoxia/ischaemia, cognition-enhancing and anticonvulsant activity, and improvement of rheological properties of the blood. Later studies confirmed the above effects and clearly demonstrated a direct neuroprotective action at a cellular level.
Cerebral circulation

· Increases brain perfusion by improvement of cerebral blood flow and decrease of the cerebral vascular resistance in dogs. (Karpati and Szporny, 1976; Szmolenszky and TÖrÖk, 1976);
· Increases the cerebral capillary flow rate in dogs (Szmolenszky and TÖrÖk, 1976)
· Improves total cerebral blood flow in normal conditions and in hypoxic hypoxia in dogs (Bencsáth et al., 1976).
Brain metabolism

· Enhances the cerebral metabolic rate of oxygen in dogs (Karpati and Szporny, 1976);
· Prevents the local cerebral glucose utilization increase, caused by forebrain ischaemia of 10-min duration in rats (Rischke and Krieglstein, 1990).

It actually goes on much longer....but here's another page:

http://thyroid.about.com/cs/alternative ... cetine.htm

Is Vinpocetine the Answer to Brain Fog, Cognitive and Memory Problems?
Popular European Supplement, Now Available in U.S., Helps Boost Oxygen in Brain

It might be, says Bernd Wollschlaeger, MD, a Florida-based board-certified family physician who specializes in the application of herbal remedies and nutritional supplements. Dr. Wollschlaeger is also the associate editor of the Journal of the American Nutraceutical Association (JANA).

Vinpocetine (pronounced vin-poe-ce-teen), is a nutritional supplement derived from the periwinkle plant. It has just recently become available in the U.S. through food, drug and mass market retailers as a nutritional supplement. The supplement is already very much in use in Europe, where physicians believe it is far more effective than other supplements -- such as ginkgo biloba -- used for memory and brain function. Vinpocetine actually contains many of the same cerebral-enhancing effects as ginkgo biloba, but has been shown to be more effective in much shorter time.

Vinpocetine has been extensively studied in Europe. These clinical studies have found it to provide several advantages for the human brain, including memory enhancement, increased cognitive performance, improved cerebral circulation and higher mental acuity and awareness.

In his book, Mind Boosters: A Guide to Natural Supplements that Enhance Your Mind, Memory, and Mood, Ray Sahelian, M.D. has written, " Experiments with vinpocetine indicate that it can dilate blood vessels, enhance circulation in the brain, improve oxygen utilization, make red blood cells more pliable, and inhibit aggregation of platelets."

According to Dr. Wollschlaeger, "all of the studies focus on improvement of cognitive function. Several peer- reviewed, double-blind studies looked at cognitive performance of normal subjects, seeing how vinpocetine would improve their cognitive performance. The researchers found a significant improvement with vinpocetine. Until vinpocetine, we physicians have had nothing to prevent cognitive decline. We only have drugs to treat after the fact."

L-Pyroglutamic Acid:

http://www.thehealthierlife.co.uk/natur ... 00926.html

Pyroglutamic Acid: The Natural Brain-boosting Nutrient That Can Improve Mental Fatigue And A Poor Memory

Date: 01/03/03

Keywords: Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, Other Natural Remedies,
Most of us experience 'off days' from time to time.

Most of us experience 'off days' from time to time. Those days when your energy levels never quite seem to get off the ground and your brain feels like it's overslept, making you prone to losing your train of thought mid-conversation.

This was certainly the case for Adam, a 59-year old executive working in a large architectural firm in London. Adam was accustomed to working long hours and leading a demanding social life, until he started to notice that his memory was gradually beginning to suffer and he felt continuously tired. Even slowing down his pace of life didn't help matters.

Concerned about this change in his health, Adam decided to visit a doctor specialising in integrated medicine (combining conventional and alternative therapies). He was advised to take conventional 'smart drugs', such as Piracetam and Centrophenoxine. Known as nootropics, these 'smart drugs' help fortify the brain against stress, ageing and mental exhaustion. However they can cause unpleasant side effects such as headaches and gastrointestinal problems.

Understandably, Adam was keen to find a safer, natural alternative. Soon afterwards, he saw another complementary health practitioner who told him about a natural new supplement called pyroglutamic acid.

Pyroglutamic acid is an amino acid that is found in small amounts in the body and also in foods, such as meat, soya, fruit and vegetables. Researchers have found that it possesses brain-boosting properties without causing harmful side effects. Within just two weeks of supplementing with pyroglutamic acid, Adam found that his tiredness and memory loss had significantly improved.

A safe and effective alternative to prescription-only 'smart drugs'
The brain-stimulating benefits of pyroglutamic acid have been known about for several years. As early as 1984, Italian researchers reported that pyroglutamic acid encouraged the release of the memory chemical acetylcholine in the brain.1

Acetylcholine is an essential chemical messenger that helps brain cells communicate with each other. This communication helps you retain old memories and also makes it easier to remember new information. Further research carried out by Italian researchers, showed that pyroglutamic acid helps preserve acetylcholine levels in the brain, as well as protecting it from chemicals that can worsen memory.2, 3

These findings have important implications, particularly in the treatment of Alzheimer's. Patients with Alzheimer's suffer from reduced acetylcholine activity in their brains. For this reason, most conventional drugs for Alzheimer's are aimed at improving acetylcholine activity in the brain by preventing its breakdown. However, as mentioned earlier, these drugs can cause harmful side effects.

An animal study carried out by Russian researchers found that pyroglutamic acid was just as effective in improving memory and learning as prescription-only medications, such as Piracetam.4

In fact, Dr Ward Dean, a founding member of the Board of the American Academy of Anti-Aging Medicine, believes that: 'Pyroglutamic acid is the nutritional equivalent to the most popular pharmaceutical-grade prescription-only smart drugs.'

The memory-boosting abilities of pyroglutamic acid have also been proved in human studies. Scientists at the department of Neurological Pathology at the University of Catania, in Italy, compared pyroglutamic acid against a placebo (dummy) treatment.
The two-month study involved 40 patients aged 65 and above, who were all suffering from memory problems. Half of these patients received pyroglutamic acid every day for two months, while the other half, who made up the control group, received a placebo. At the end of the study the researchers found that the group taking pyroglutamic acid demonstrated significant improvements in memory function, compared to the control group.5

It also goes on longer...

Citicoline:

http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictio ... citicoline

citicoline
[sit′ikō′lin]
a natural substance that is a component of cell membranes. A pharmaceutic version is used to help stroke victims by inducing injured membranes to repair themselves, limiting cell death. The substance, manufactured by the human body, also helps the brain tissues to repair or replace circuits needed for normal functions. Citicoline treatment can be administered within 24 hours of a stroke.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... _n5990648/

Abstract

Citicoline (CDP-choline; cytidine 5'-diphosphocholine), a form of the essential nutrient choline, shows promise of clinical efficacy in elderly patients with cognitive deficits, inefficient memory, and early-stage Alzheimer's disease. Citicoline has also been investigated as a therapy in stroke patients, although the results of trials to date are inconclusive. Produced endogenously, citicoline serves as a choline donor in the metabolic pathways for biosynthesis of acetylcholine and neuronal membrane phospholipids, chiefly phosphatidylcholine. The principal components of citicoline, choline and cytidine, are readily absorbed in the GI tract and easily cross the blood-brain barrier. Exogenous citicoline, as the sodium salt, has been researched in animal experiments and human clinical trials that provide evidence of its cholinergic and neuroprotective actions. As a dietary supplement, citicoline appears useful for improving both the structural integrity and functionality of the neuronal membrane that may assist in membrane repair. This review, while not intended to be exhaustive, highlights the published, peer-reviewed research on citicoline with brief discussions on toxicology and safety, mechanisms of action, and pharmacokinetics.
Introduction

Citicoline is a complex organic molecule (Figure 1) that functions as an intermediate in the biosynthesis of cell membrane phospholipids. Citicoline is also known as CDP-choline and cytidine diphosphate choline (cytidine 5'-diphosphocholine). CDP-choline belongs to the group of biomolecules in living systems known as "nucleotides" that play important roles in cellular metabolism. The basic structure of a nucleotide contains ribose with a nitrogenous base and a phosphate group. CDP-choline is composed of ribose, pyrophosphate, cytosine (a nitrogenous base), and choline. (1)

Grouped with the B vitamins, choline is a trimethylated nitrogenous base that enters three major metabolic pathways: (1) phospholipid synthesis via phosphorylcholine; (2) acetylcholine synthesis; and (3) oxidation to betaine, which serves as a methyl donor. Endogenously, formation of citicoline is the rate-limiting step in the synthesis of phosphatidylcholine, a key membrane phospholipid, from choline. Exogenous citicoline, which is hydrolyzed in the small intestine and readily absorbed as choline and cytidine, enters the various biosynthetic pathways that utilize citicoline as an intermediate. Citicoline thus has a sparing effect on systemic choline reserves, as well as inhibiting the breakdown of membrane phospholipids. (2)

Citicoline is produced from choline chloride and orotic acid by an enzymatic process. Freebase citicoline is the form marketed as a dietary supplement in the United States and as a drug in Japan. The sodium salt of citicoline, the form used in clinical trials, is sold as a drug in Europe.

Pharmacokinetics and Metabolism

Citicoline is a water-soluble compound with greater than 90-percent bioavailability. (3) Pharmacokinetic studies on healthy adults have shown oral doses of citicoline are rapidly absorbed, with less than one percent excreted in feces. Plasma levels peak in a biphasic manner, at one hour after ingestion followed by a second larger peak at 24 hours post-dosing. Citicoline is metabolized in the gut wall and liver. The byproducts of exogenous citicoline formed by hydrolysis in the intestinal wall are choline and cytidine. Following absorption, choline and cytidine are dispersed throughout the body, enter systemic circulation for utilization in various biosynthetic pathways, and cross the blood-brain barrier for re-synthesis into citicoline in the brain. (4)

Pharmacokinetic studies using [sup.14]C citicoline show citicoline elimination occurs mainly via respiratory C[O.sub.2], and urinary excretion, in two phases mirroring the biphasic plasma peaks. The initial peak in plasma concentration is followed by a sharp decline, which then slows over the next 4-10 hours. In the second phase, an initially rapid decline after the 24-hour plasma peak is similarly followed by a slower elimination rate. The elimination half-life is 56 hours for C[O.sub.2] and 71 hours for urinary excretion. (5)

Endogenous citicoline serves as an intermediate in the biosynthesis of phospholipids, including phosphatidylcholine, the pmnary phospholipid in cell membranes. (6) Cytidine a major component of RNA, undergoes cytoplasmic conversion to cytidine triphosphate (CTP). In the citicoline metabolic pathway, choline is phosphorylated by the enzyme choline kinase: the resulting phosphorylcholine combines with CTP to form citicoline. (7) Citicoline then combines with diacylglycerol (DAG), forming phosphatidylcholine, with choline phosphotransferase serving as the enzyme catalyst in this reaction. (3)

Oral administration of citicoline raises plasma levels of cytidine and choline in rats within six to eight hours. Prolonged administration for 42 and 90 days increases brain concentrations of phosphatidylcholine, phosphatidylethanolamine, and phosphatidylserine--the three major phospholipids in brain cell membranes. Evidence for the role of these metabolites as substrates for phosphatidylcholine synthesis was found in a study giving rats daily oral doses of citicoline for 90 days. At a dose of 500 mg/kg per day phosphatidylcholine levels increased by 25 percent, phosphatidylethanolamine by 17 percent, and phosphatidylserine by 42 percent. (8)

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-citicoline.htm

Citicoline is a chemical found naturally in the body, which is also sometimes taken as a nutritional supplement. Also called CDP-choline, it has been researched for use in a variety of contexts since the 1970s. It appears to have effects that can protect the brain from damage that occurs as the result of a stroke or other such condition. Used by a healthy individual, it has been shown to increase alertness and even to slightly enhance the vision for a short period of time. Because it is a natural supplement, not as much study has been done with it as is done for most drugs, but it appears to have few to no side effects in the short term.

One of the more important roles that citicoline plays in the body is in the synthesis of compounds necessary for the production of gray matter in the brain. It can also be converted by brain cells into one of a class of chemicals known as phospholipids, which are important in building cell membranes. In addition to this, it can aid in replenishing the brain with another type of phospholipid called phosphatidylserine. Tests have shown that this chemical can improve learning ability and memorization when given to elderly individuals with memory impairment issues.

Citicoline is also quite notable for its ability to protect brain and nerve cells from damage when they are deprived of oxygen, such as during a stroke. Some claims suggest that it can speed up recovery from strokes, and even treat diseases which are characterized by a decrease in cognitive function, such as Alzheimer's. What is certain is that the administration of citicoline can delay the degeneration of cell membranes caused by strokes in laboratory animals, and that similar effects have been observed in clinical trials with humans.

As a nutritional supplement, citicoline is usually sold in capsules containing a dose of about 250 mg each. It has been shown to be safe at levels up to 500 mg per day over the short term, but most studies of supplemental citicoline do not last longer than a few weeks. For this reason, its long-term effects are uncertain. It is usually taken to improve motivation and mental acuity for a few hours. Its side effects are usually very mild, and include elevated body temperature and nighttime sleeplessness when taken in the late afternoon or evening.

Some of those who use supplemental citicoline have also reported positive sexual side effects and mood enhancement. Effects such as these may be due to the fact that citicoline can increase the levels of certain neurotransmitters, such as dopamine and norepinephrine, in the tissues of the brain. These chemicals are closely associated with mood regulation and are the likely cause of such effects.

R(+) Lipoic Acid

This particular dietary supplement has quite a bit of evidence suggesting its a very beneficial antioxidant with many protective properties.

In this case Wikapedia has some references for their sources, so for the sake of brevity and convenience, I'll take some snippets of their page to sum up some of it:

Lipoic Acid:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipoic_acid

The first human clinical studies using alpha-lipoic acid (ALA) in the United States were conducted by Fredrick C. Bartter, Burton M. Berkson, and associates from the National Institutes of Health in the 1970’s.[8][9][10] They administered intravenous ALA to 79 people with acute and severe liver damage at various medical centers across the United States and 75 recovered full liver function. Drs. Bartter and Berkson were appointed by the FDA as principal investigators for this therapeutic agent as an investigational drug and Dr. Berkson went on to use it successfully for the treatment of chronic liver disease (viral hepatitis, autoimmune hepatitis, etc).[11]

Antioxidant

Lipoic acid was first postulated to be an effective antioxidant when it was found it prevented the symptoms of vitamin C and vitamin E deficiency. Dihydrolipoic acid is able to regenerate (reduce) antioxidants, such as glutathione, vitamin C and vitamin E. [27][28][29]. It is able to scavenge reactive species in vitro, though there is little or no evidence that this actually occurs in vivo. The relatively good scavenging activity of lipoic acid is due to the strained conformation of the 5-membered ring in the intramolecular disulfide.[30] In cells, lipoic acid can theoretically be reduced to dihydrolipoic acid (ΔE= -0.288), though significant quantities of dihydrolipoic acid derived from orally-ingested lipoic acid have never been demonstrated. Recent findings suggest that lipoic acid's curative effects are due to modulation of regulation in eukaryotes [31]. This likely occurs due to lipoic acid acting as an oxidant, not a reductant. [32]

[edit] Disease Treatment

Lipoic acid has been shown in cell culture experiments to increase cellular uptake of glucose by recruiting the glucose transporter GLUT4 to the cell membrane, suggesting its use in diabetes,[33][34] although these findings are controversial as lipoic acid worsened the condition of type 1 diabetes induced rats.[35] Studies of rat aging have suggested that the use of Acetyl-L-carnitine and lipoic acid results in improved memory performance and delayed structural mitochondrial decay.[36] As a result, it may be helpful for people with Alzheimer's disease or Parkinson's disease.[37] In 2009 a study found that it reduced triglycerides in mice.[38]

ALA has been used for the treatment of various cancers for which no effective treatments exist [39] [40].

That's about half of the ingredients in this formula..I encourage you to look at the others yourself and see.

i've done similar checks on their liver health formula which I use religiously along with many family members and friends who saw their AST and ALT liver enzymes completely normalize after taking this product.

It's for these reasons why alternative medicine is of interest to people because the bloody process of pharmaceutical quality proof is so sloooooowww. Yes you bypass a lot of potential negatives...possible side effects or long-term problems that might show up with further research...but many people including myself...feel that the risk/benefit ratio is worth trying out because in many of these cases, these ingredients seem to be overall very benign and non-toxic and therefore even if they don't deliver on the positives, they seem to indicate little harm in trying.

[Alyrium Denryle]

In answer to both your response and that of Broomstick: I have 3 reasons. 1) that they are potentially unable to make a rational decision at the time as they may not understand the choice before them properly due to drugs and pain (see below), and a literal life/ death decision can't be fixed if wrong

Believe it or not, we in civilized countries (Namely, the US, most of europe) actually have procedures in place to make sure that the person IS capable of making those decisions, and whether or not a medical proxy is appropriate. While I agree with you that a person facing down a hopeless condition (such as terminal cancer) may not be rational, the same can be said of ANY medical decision. That is why we have medical proxies for decision making, a person who presumably knows the persons wishes, or better yet, a living will which spells out such decisions in advance. So even then, your argument just fails.

2) because its so subject to abuse by all involved (suicidal/ depressed patients, stressed medical personnel, unhappy relatives)

Why should a person who is suffering from a terminal or otherwise hopeless condition (for example, having Locked In Syndrome that cannot be fixed, or being completely and permanently incapacitated by any number of conditions to the point of not having a meaningful quality of life) not have their suicidal desires attended to? Would the desire to die under such a circumstance be considered a priori evidence for irrationality? Or do you mean people who are already suicidal? Guess what, that can be solved with a psych screen prior to the decision being made. And more to the point, even if they were suicidal before they developed a medically hopeless condition, why should it matter, when a rational person would more than likely want to die? As for stressed medical personnel, that argument applies for any medical decision. Subject to abuse. Same with family members. So who exactly do you want to make decisions for people? A computer? Because that is essentially all your poorly thought out argument allows if taken to its conclusion.


None of us here are advocating (I think) the ability of a car accident patient to ask to have the plug pulled (except if they do so in writing, in advance as part of a medical directive). However why should a person facing down one of these aforementioned hopeless conditions (and if you say "where there is life there is hope" I will have to choke a bitch) be forced to endure it, just because YOU fear abuse?

and 3) because if they are going to die anyway I don't really see the benefit in accelerating the process.

You are a fucking idiot. Really? So you dont see the difference between say, six months to a year of constant pain, dehumanizing procedures and no meaningful quality of life followed by death, and just death? Really? Are you that fucking myopic?

As for the accusation of naivety and torture....I've seen at third-hand someone go through a milder version of this after being run over. He pretty much couldn't stand what he went through at the time, ended up morphine dependent, and if you'd given him the right to die at that point I think he'd have taken it due to the constant pain, repeated infections and mental health problems. He's alive and well today and has a more active life than I do. Sometime the patient doesn't know best. Using the most extreme cases you can find as your argument to call me naive or cruel is a bit of a strawman, 90% cases aren't going to be that extreme.

And none of us are saying that people not suffering from hopeless conditions should be allowed to have the plug pulled, UNLESS they spell out conditions for that in advance. If they do that, your arguments are moot.

In other words, go read a text on biomedical ethics. They tend to go over this sort of thing.

It's for these reasons why alternative medicine is of interest to people because the bloody process of pharmaceutical quality proof is so sloooooowww. Yes you bypass a lot of potential negatives...possible side effects or long-term problems that might show up with further research...but many people including myself...feel that the risk/benefit ratio is worth trying out because in many of these cases, these ingredients seem to be overall very benign and non-toxic and therefore even if they don't deliver on the positives, they seem to indicate little harm in trying.

Looking over that, it looks like some Natural Product Chemists did a bit of bioprospecting, and put their findings out on the market without subjecting it to rigorous testing. They are also not meant as treatments for disease, thus, it is not "alternative medicine" but rather, a supplement you get at a health food store that you HOPE does what it says it does because it is unregulated. You have been posting here long enough to know that annecdotal evidence of what YOU have experienced is shit. Your sample size is too small to mean a fucking thing. Same with the references of the wiki page you cite for the Lipoic acid. The cancer treatments were both ONE patient each, and causation could be attributed to just about anything.

I could go on and on...

[PainRack]

i've done similar checks on their liver health formula which I use religiously along with many family members and friends who saw their AST and ALT liver enzymes completely normalize after taking this product.

Just out of curiosity, have you ever done these tests after they stopped taking said meds, because some medications can elevate the levels of ALT/AST. I suppose it isn't illogical to argue that there are also drugs out there which would mask said levels.

[Justforfun000]

Looking over that, it looks like some Natural Product Chemists did a bit of bioprospecting, and put their findings out on the market without subjecting it to rigorous testing. They are also not meant as treatments for disease, thus, it is not "alternative medicine" but rather, a supplement you get at a health food store that you HOPE does what it says it does because it is unregulated. You have been posting here long enough to know that annecdotal evidence of what YOU have experienced is shit. Your sample size is too small to mean a fucking thing. Same with the references of the wiki page you cite for the Lipoic acid. The cancer treatments were both ONE patient each, and causation could be attributed to just about anything.

Ok Aly, fair enough..but it's still reasonable for it to be something I feel should be my choice to make. That's why I support people's right to buy such products without restriction.
I realize a lot of the hope is based on the "where there's smoke there's fire" principle...but in many cases it turns out to be generally correct. From what is indicated so far, it doesn't seem likely that I'm going to cause myself any siginificant harm, and I just must discover some interesting benefits.

PainRack Wrote

Just out of curiosity, have you ever done these tests after they stopped taking said meds, because some medications can elevate the levels of ALT/AST. I suppose it isn't illogical to argue that there are also drugs out there which would mask said levels.

Yes. 2 out of the group mentioned told me they ran out of the protective liver meds and decided to let it be to see what happened and their liver enzymes went up again. They told the doctor and they said get back on the products right away if they work for you.

What can I say? I know anectdotal evidence is insufficient for proof, but it still means something ultimately. In these cases all that matters to these people is said product appears to be protecting them.

One of these people have a genetic problem that causes her to have abnormally high liver enzymes...I have no clue what it is actually...my mother didn't know, but she's been a friend of the family for over 40 years and this is the first time they became normal. She's been on them now for years and feels happy and secure that she's (at least biochemically), healthier.

[wautd]

Add another one

Father found guilty after praying while daughter died
PA

A man accused of killing his 11-year-old diabetic daughter by praying instead of seeking medical care has been found guilty of second-degree reckless homicide.


Dale Neumann, 47, was convicted over the March 23, 2008, death of his daughter, Madeline, from undiagnosed diabetes.


Prosecutors argued he should have rushed the girl to a hospital because she could not walk, talk, eat or drink. Instead, Madeline died on the floor of the family's rural home as people surrounded her and prayed. Someone called an ambulance when she stopped breathing.


Neumann stared at the jury as the verdict was read out yesterday in the courtroom in Wausau, Wisconsin.


Defence lawyer Jay Kronenwetter said the verdict would be appealed.


Neumann, who once studied to be a Pentecostal minister, testified that he believed God would heal his daughter and he never expected her to die. God promises in the Bible to heal, he said.


"If I go to the doctor, I am putting the doctor before God," Neumann testified. "I am not believing what he said he would do."


The father testified that he thought Madeline had the flu or a fever, and several relatives and family friends said they also did not realise how ill she was.


Leilani Neumann, 41, was convicted of the same charge in the spring. Marathon County Circuit Judge Vincent Howard set October 6 for sentencing for both parents, who face up to 25 years in prison.


Their case is believed to be the first in the Midwestern state of Wisconsin involving faith healing in which someone died and another person was charged with a homicide.


Last month, a jury in the western state of Oregon convicted a man of criminal mistreatment for relying on prayer instead of seeking medical care for his 15-month-old daughter, who died of pneumonia and a blood infection in March 2008. Both the girl's parents were acquitted of a more serious manslaughter charge.

[Stark]

I realize a lot of the hope is based on the "where there's smoke there's fire" principle...but in many cases it turns out to be generally correct. From what is indicated so far, it doesn't seem likely that I'm going to cause myself any siginificant harm, and I just must discover some interesting benefits.

How do you get away with posting shit like this all the time? You post every crazy-eyed natural medicine article in the damn world, and then just handwave away critical evidence and say 'it feels good waaaah'. How does it turn out to be generally correct? In what situations?