Coup in Honduras

[Bilbo]

Obama has spoken. The "coup" was illegal. Great, so the three leaders siding with the ousted President are Hugo Chavez, Fidel Castro, and Barack Obama.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id ... _article=1

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124623220955866301.html


Obama needs his head examined.

[The Original Nex]

Obama has spoken. The "coup" was illegal. Great, so the three leaders siding with the ousted President are Hugo Chavez, Fidel Castro, and Barack Obama.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id ... _article=1

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124623220955866301.html


Obama needs his head examined.

And the UN, EU and the OAS and the vast number of states within these international organizations...

Congratulations on managing to mention ONLY Chávez and Castro with Obama. Fucking Colombia and Argentina are also with Venezuela scary Venezuela and Cuba...as are the vast majority (or dare I say ALL) American nations. Canada's statement was as strong as Cuba's.

International reactions to the crisis in Honduras And YES it's wikipedia. Sourced and all.

"ZOMG Obama is just like CASTRO!!"

Quit your fearmongering.

*Keep in mind I'm not passing judgment on what the military/Honduras government did. Duchess has made a convincing case for it's legality. But the international reaction is FAR from Bilbo's "Obama is CRAAZZYY" douchebaggery.

[Guardsman Bass]

Even then, Obama and Clinton stopped short of actually calling for Zelaya to be reinstated.

[Prannon]

You have to ask yourself why Obama and others are continuing to support Zelaya despite his unconstitutional behaviors. More than likely they don't want to blow this incident out of proportion with the parts of the world who support Zelaya by immediately recognizing Micheletti's new government. It'd be a pointless row with the governments of Venezuela and other left-leaning states in Central and South America when there are bigger fish to fry. Obama has enough on his plate (economy, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, environmental stuff, etc) without having to deal with a court sanctioned military removal of a head of state in Latin America. Better to just throw out the right words, smile and nod to the others who sincerely believe this was illegal, and get back to what he was doing.

Plus, there is the matter of the military's involvement in this case. I'm not saying that military involvement was wrong, mind you, but the news keeps saying that this was THE FIRST MILITARY COUP IN 16 YEARS OMGOMGOMG!!! I doubt Obama, or anyone else for that matter, is interested in appearing to support a change of power brought by the military, whether it was court ordered or not.

[MarshalPurnell]

Does anyone believe that Chavez or Castro or Morales and their ilk care if the action was constitutional or not? Like a good many critics of the action they favor a social revolution that will sweep away the present order in Honduras, with or without a violent and bloody class struggle. If Zelaya say, had the army on his side and pushed through the referendum anyway, using it to prepare the way for an illegal extension of his presidency, they would be telling critics not to interfere in internal Honduran affairs.

Now I know no one here is really stupid enough to believe otherwise, but the staggering level of blatant hypocrisy on the part of those leaders, and stupidity on the part of their apologists elsewhere, is rather striking to me.

[xerex]

dude If the Honduran Supreme Court can declare the referendum unconstitutional why cant they put him on trial and let him defend himself ?
for a "fucking Central American banana republic" the Courts and Congress seem to be functioning quite well.

How do you arrest him? He controls the police so you use... the military!

and send him into exile rather than putting him on trial ? Kind of lacks due process dont you think? The same behaviour people are accusing HIM of.

Obama has spoken. The "coup" was illegal. Great, so the three leaders siding with the ousted President are Hugo Chavez, Fidel Castro, and Barack Obama.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id ... _article=1

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124623220955866301.html


Obama needs his head examined.

as said before EVERY world leader is condemning the coup. I dare you to find one that supports it.

[xerex]

edit

[Siege]

Frankly it's kind of silly to expect world leaders to not condemn the coup, whether it's actually a coup or not. What did you expect, that President Obama would say that it's perfectly all right for the military of a Latin American nation to put the president on the first plane out of the country? If he did that it wouldn't matter why he'd said it or whether he'd actually be right to do so, the media would have a field day with it. Here's an American president claiming it's all right for the military to forcibly deport an elected president! Can you imagine the headlines on FOX?

[Chris OFarrell]

The world HAS to condemn the Coup, you can't sit back and watch a military kick out a head of state like that, unless the head of state is as crazy as Hitler or something.

But with that said, the ideal outcome will be for this new President to call fresh and open elections at once -minus the President for Life- and let the people decide, probably under UN supervision.

That will get the world off their back, and let this guy rant and rave in exile, with everyone but dear old Hugo ignoring him.

[Force Lord]

And now we have an opinion of those opposing the "coup":

http://upsidedownworld.org/main/content/view/1941/1/

Showdown in Honduras: The Rise, Repression and Uncertain Future of the Coup
Written by Benjamin Dangl
Monday, 29 June 2009


Worldwide condemnation has followed the coup that unseated President Manuel Zelaya of Honduras on Sunday, June 28. Nation-wide mobilizations and a general strike demanding that Zelaya be returned to power are growing in spite of increased military repression. One protester outside the government palace in Honduras told reporters that if Roberto Micheletti, the leader installed by the coup, wants to enter the palace, "he had better do so by air" because if he goes by land "we will stop him."

On early Sunday morning, approximately 100 soldiers entered the home of the left-leaning Zelaya, forcefully removed him and, while he was still in his pajamas, ushered him on to a plane to Costa Rica. The tension that led to the coup involved a struggle for power between left and right political factions in the country. Besides the brutal challenges facing the Honduran people, this political crisis is a test for regional solidarity and Washington-Latin American relations.
Manuel Zelaya Takes a Left Turn

When Manuel Zelaya was elected president on November 27, 2005 in a close victory, he became president of one of the poorest nations in the region, with approximately 70% of its population of 7.5 million living under the poverty line. Though siding himself with the region’s left in recent years as a new member of the leftist trade bloc, Bolivarian Alternative for the Americas (ALBA), Zelaya did sign the Central American Free Trade Agreement in 2004.

However, Zelaya has been criticizing and taking on the sweatshop and corporate media industry in his country, and increased the minimum wage by 60%. He said the increase, which angered the country’s elite but expanded his support among unions, would "force the business oligarchy to start paying what is fair."

At a meeting of regional anti-drug officials, Zelaya spoke of an unconventional way to combat the drug trafficking and related violence that has been plaguing his country: "Instead of pursuing drug traffickers, societies should invest resources in educating drug addicts and curbing their demand."

After his election, Zelaya’s left-leaning policies began generating "resistance and anger among Liberal [party] leaders and lawmakers on the one hand, and attracting support from the opposition, civil society organizations and popular movements on the other," IPS reported.

The social organization Via Campesina stated, "The government of President Zelaya has been characterized by its defense of workers and campesinos, it is a defender of the Bolivarian Alternative of the Americas (ALBA), and during his administration it has promoted actions that benefit Honduran campesinos."

As his popularity rose over the years among these sectors of society, the right wing and elite of Honduras worked to undermine the leader, eventually resulting in the recent coup.

Leading up to the Coup

The key question leading up to the coup was whether or not to hold a referendum on Sunday, June 28 – as Zelaya wanted – on organizing an assembly to re-write the country’s constitution.

As one media analyst pointed out, while many major news outlets in the US, including the Miami Herald, Wall St. Journal and Washington Post, said an impetus for the coup was specifically Zelaya’s plans for a vote to allow him to extend his term in office, the actual ballot question was to be: "Do you agree that, during the general elections of November 2009 there should be a fourth ballot to decide whether to hold a Constituent National Assembly that will approve a new political constitution?"

Nations across Latin America, including Venezuela, Bolivia and Ecuador, have recently re-written their constitutions. In many aspects the changes to these documents enshrined new rights for marginalized people and protected the nations’ economies from the destabilizing effects of free trade and corporate looting.

Leading up to the coup, on June 10, members of teacher, student, indigenous and union groups marched to demand that Congress back the referendum on the constitution, chanting, "The people, aware, defend the Constituent [Assembly]." The Honduran Front of Teachers Organizations [FOM], with some 48,000 members, also supported the referendum. FOM leader Eulogio Chávez asked teachers to organize the expected referendum this past Sunday in schools, according to the Weekly News Update on the Americas.

The Supreme Court ruled that the referendum violated the constitution as it was taking place during an election year. When Honduran military General Romeo Vasquez refused to distribute ballots to citizens and participate in the preparations for the Sunday referendum, Zelaya fired him on June 24. The Court called for the reinstatement of Vasquez, but Zelaya refused to recognize the reinstatement, and proceeded with the referendum, distributing the ballots and planning for the Sunday vote.

Crackdown in Honduras

Vasquez, a former student at the infamous School of the Americas, now known as Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation (WHINSEC), went on to be a key leader in the June 28 coup.

After Zelaya had been taken to Costa Rica, a falsified resignation letter from Zelaya was presented to Congress, and former Parliament leader Roberto Micheletti was sworn in by Congress as the new president of the country. Micheletti immediately declared a curfew as protests and mobilizations continued nation-wide.

Since the coup took place, military planes and helicopters have been circling the city, the electricity and internet has been cut off, and only music is being played on the few radio stations that are still operating, according to IPS News.

Telesur journalists, who have been reporting consistently throughout the conflict, were detained by the de facto government in Honduras. They were then released thanks to international pressure.

The ambassadors to Honduras from Cuba, Venezuela and Nicaragua were arrested. Patricia Rodas, the Foreign Minister of Honduras under Zelaya has also been arrested. Rodas recently presided over an OAS meeting in which Cuba was finally admitted into the organization.

The military-installed government has issued arrest warrants for Honduran social leaders for the Popular Bloc Coordinating Committee, Via Campesina and the Civic Council of Grassroots and Indigenous Organizations of Honduras, according to the Weekly News Update on the Americas.

Human rights activist Dr. Juan Almendares, reporting from from Tegucigalpa, the capital of Honduras, told Democracy Now! that due to government crackdowns and the electrical blackout, there is "not really access to information, no freedom of the press." He said, "We have also a curfew, because after 9:00 you can be shot if you are on the streets. So we have a curfew from 9:00 to 6:00 a.m."

In a statement on the coup, Via Campesina said, "We believe that these deeds are the desperate acts of the national oligarchy and the hardcore right to preserve the interests of capital, and in particular, of the large transnational corporations."

Mobilizations and Strikes in Support of Zelaya

Members of social, indigenous and labor organizations from around the country have concentrated in the city’s capital, organizing barricades around the presidential palace, demanding Zelaya’s return to power. Sixty protesters have been injured and two have died in clashes with the coup’s security forces.

"Thousands of Hondurans gathered outside the presidential palace singing the national hymn," Telesur reported. "While the battalions mobilized against protesters at the Presidential House, the TV channels did not report on the tense events." Bertha Cáceres, the leader of the Consejo Cívico de Organizaciones Populares y Indígenas, said that the ethnic communities of the country are ready for resistance and do not recognize the Micheletti government.

Dr. Almendares reported that in spite of massive repression on the part of the military leaders, "We have almost a national strike for workers, people, students and intellectuals, and they are organized in a popular resistance-run pacific movement against this violation of the democracy. … There are many sectors involved in this movement trying to restitute the constitutional rights, the human rights."

Rafael Alegría, a leader of Via Campesina in Honduras, told Telesur, "The resistance of the people continues and is growing, already in the western part of the country campesinos are taking over highways, and the military troops are impeding bus travel, which is why many people have decided to travel to Tegucigalpa on foot. The resistance continues in spite of the hostility of the military patrols."

A general strike was also organized by various social and labor sectors in the country. Regarding the strike, Alegría said it is happening across state institutions and "progressively in the private sector."

The 4th Army Battalion from the Atlántida Department in Honduras has declared that it will not respect orders from the Micheletti government, and the major highways of the country are blocked by protesters, according to a radio interview with Alegría.

The Civic Council of Popular and Indigenous Organizations of Honduras (COPINH), condemned the coup, media crackdowns and repression, saying in a statement: "[T]he Honduran people are carrying out large demonstrations, actions in their communities, in the municipalities; there are occupations of bridges, and a protest in front of the presidential residence, among others. From the lands of Lempira, Morazán and Visitación Padilla, we call on the Honduran people in general to demonstrate in defense of their rights and of real and direct democracy for the people, to the fascists we say that they will NOT silence us, that this cowardly act will turn back on them, with great force."

Washington Responds

On Sunday, Obama spoke of the events in Honduras: "I am deeply concerned by reports coming out of Honduras regarding the detention and expulsion of President Mel Zelaya. As the Organization of American States did on Friday, I call on all political and social actors in Honduras to respect democratic norms, the rule of law and the tenets of the Inter-American Democratic Charter. Any existing tensions and disputes must be resolved peacefully through dialogue free from any outside interference."

But the US hasn’t actually called what’s happened in Honduras a coup. Hillary Clinton said, "We are withholding any formal legal determination." And regarding whether or not the US is calling for Zelaya’s return, Clinton said, "We haven't laid out any demands that we're insisting on, because we're working with others on behalf of our ultimate objectives."

If the White House declares that what’s happening in Honduras is a coup, they would have to block aid to the rogue Honduran government. A provision of US law regarding funds directed by the US Congress says that, "None of the funds appropriated or otherwise made available ... shall be obligated or expended to finance directly any assistance to the government of any country whose duly elected head of government is deposed by military coup or decree."

"The State Department has requested $68.2 million in aid for fiscal year 2010 [for Honduras], which begins on October 1, up from $43.2 million in the current fiscal year and $40.5 million a year earlier," according to Reuters.

The US military has a base in Soto Cano, Honduras, which, according to investigative journalist Eva Golinger, is home to approximately 500 troops and a number of air force planes and helicopters.

Regarding US relations with the Honduran military, Latin American History professor and journalist Greg Grandin said on Democracy Now!: "The Honduran military is effectively a subsidiary of the United States government. Honduras, as a whole, if any Latin American country is fully owned by the United States, it’s Honduras. Its economy is wholly based on trade, foreign aid and remittances. So if the US is opposed to this coup going forward, it won’t go forward. Zelaya will return..."

The Regional Response

The Organization of American States, and the United Nations have condemned the coup. Outrage at the coup has been expressed by major leaders across the globe, and all over Latin America, as reported by Reuters: the Presidents of Venezuela, Ecuador, Bolivia and Cuba have been outspoken in their protests against the coup. The French Foreign Ministry said, "France firmly condemns the coup that has just taken place in Honduras." Argentine President Cristina Fernandez said, "I'm deeply worried about the situation in Honduras... it reminds us of the worst years in Latin America's history."

Even Augusto Ramírez Ocampo, a former foreign minister of Colombia told the NY Times, "It is a legal obligation to defend democracy in Honduras."

Zelaya has announced a trip to the US to speak before the United Nations. He also stated that he will return to Honduras on Thursday, accompanied by Jose Miguel Insulza, the head of the Organization of American States. "I will fulfill my four year mandate [as President], whether you, the coup-plotters, like it or not,” Zelaya said.

Only time will tell what the international and national support for Zelaya means for Honduras. Regional support for Bolivian President Evo Morales during an attempted coup in 2008 empowered his fight against right wing destabilizing forces. Popular support in the streets proved vital during the attempted coup against Venezuelan President Chavez in 2002.

Meanwhile, Zelaya supporters continue to convene at the government palace, yelling at the armed soldiers while tanks roam the streets.

"We’re defending our president," protester Umberto Guebara told a NY Times reporter. "I’m not afraid. I’d give my life for my country."

Hope this stays peaceful.

[xerex]

NOW the Hondurans say they'll arrest him.

Honduras' ousted president won overwhelming international support Tuesday as he planned a high-profile return to his chaotic country. The politicians who sent soldiers to fly him into exile in his pajamas said he will be arrested for treason if he tries.

The showdown was building to a climax as the presidents of Argentina and Ecuador signed on to accompany President Manuel Zelaya and other figures on a flight to Honduras on Thursday. Attorney General Luis Alberto Rubi said Zelaya would be seized "as soon as he sets foot on Honduran soil" and face 20 years in prison on charges that also include abuse of authority.

We thank God for not letting democracy be interrupted in our country," Micheletti said earlier before a crowd of some 5,000 cheering supporters in white and blue, the colors of the Honduran flag. Flanked by soldiers in camouflage, he said: "The heroes of this democratic day are the soldiers."

A pro-Zelaya crowd of about equal size marched toward the presidential palace, now protected by a chain-link fence and more than 500 soldiers and police.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090630/ap_ ... duras_coup

[xerex]

Ousted President Manuel Zelaya was kept from landing at the main Honduras airport Sunday because the runway was blocked by groups of soldiers with military vehicles, some of them lined up against a crowd of thousands outside. His Venezuelan pilot circled around the airport and decided not to risk a crash.

Zelaya landed in Nicaragua and vowed to try again Monday or Tuesday in his high-stakes effort to return to power in a country where all branches of government have lined up against him

Violence broke out among the huge crowd surrounding the airport, with at least one man killed — shot in the head from inside the airport as people tried to break through a security fence, according to an Associated Press photographer at the scene. At least 30 people were treated for injuries, the Red Cross said, after security forces fired warning shots and tear gas.

When Zelaya's plane was turned away, his supporters began chanting "We want blue helmets!" — a reference to U.N. peacekeepers.

The immediate concern, however, was avoiding more bloodshed. Both critics and supporters of Zelaya have staged large demonstrations.

Zelaya has drawn most of his support from the working and middle classes of this impoverished nation, while his opponents are based in the ranks of the well-to-do, although the increasingly leftist approach of the wealthy rancher had eroded his popular support.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/lt_honduras_coup

[MKSheppard]

Fun Factoids:

Link

Aside from canceling all of Zelaya’s government backed credit cards (before which, he had spent 80,000 dollars in less than five days), terminated also was the leasing of 50 luxury vehicles and 61 cellular phones with a credit of over 47,500 lempiras, and over 100 bank accounts, all backed by Honduran government funds.

The chancellor of Honduras confirmed that Mel Zelaya ordered the withdrawal of 40 million lempiras from the Central Bank of Honduras.

When the investigations were made at the presidential house, black garbage bags filled with thousands and thousands of dollars were found, as well as in almost every drawer.

Investigations documented over 600 million lempiras worth of expenditures that Zelaya had spent on his quest to hold the “opinion poll” to allow the fourth vote.

[MKSheppard]

By a former Honduran Minister of Culture

A 'coup' in Honduras? Nonsense.
Don't believe the myth. The arrest of President Zelaya represents the triumph of the rule of law.
By Octavio Sánchez

Tegucigalpa, Honduras
Sometimes, the whole world prefers a lie to the truth. The White House, the United Nations, the Organization of American States, and much of the media have condemned the ouster of Honduran President Manuel Zelaya this past weekend as a coup d'état.

That is nonsense.

In fact, what happened here is nothing short of the triumph of the rule of law.

To understand recent events, you have to know a bit about Honduras's constitutional history. In 1982, my country adopted a new Constitution that enabled our orderly return to democracy after years of military rule. After more than a dozen previous constitutions, the current Constitution, at 27 years old, has endured the longest.

It has endured because it responds and adapts to changing political conditions: Of its original 379 articles, seven have been completely or partially repealed, 18 have been interpreted, and 121 have been reformed.

It also includes seven articles that cannot be repealed or amended because they address issues that are critical for us. Those unchangeable articles include the form of government; the extent of our borders; the number of years of the presidential term; two prohibitions – one with respect to reelection of presidents, the other concerning eligibility for the presidency; and one article that penalizes the abrogation of the Constitution.

During these 27 years, Honduras has dealt with its problems within the rule of law. Every successful democratic country has lived through similar periods of trial and error until they were able to forge legal frameworks that adapt to their reality. France crafted more than a dozen constitutions between 1789 and the adoption of the current one in 1958. The US Constitution has been amended 27 times since 1789. And the British – pragmatic as they are – in 900 years have made so many changes that they have never bothered to compile their Constitution into a single body of law.

Under our Constitution, what happened in Honduras this past Sunday? Soldiers arrested and sent out of the country a Honduran citizen who, the day before, through his own actions had stripped himself of the presidency.

These are the facts: On June 26, President Zelaya issued a decree ordering all government employees to take part in the "Public Opinion Poll to convene a National Constitutional Assembly." In doing so, Zelaya triggered a constitutional provision that automatically removed him from office.

Constitutional assemblies are convened to write new constitutions. When Zelaya published that decree to initiate an "opinion poll" about the possibility of convening a national assembly, he contravened the unchangeable articles of the Constitution that deal with the prohibition of reelecting a president and of extending his term. His actions showed intent.

Our Constitution takes such intent seriously. According to Article 239: "No citizen who has already served as head of the Executive Branch can be President or Vice-President. Whoever violates this law or proposes its reform [emphasis added], as well as those that support such violation directly or indirectly, will immediately cease in their functions and will be unable to hold any public office for a period of 10 years."

Notice that the article speaks about intent and that it also says "immediately" – as in "instant," as in "no trial required," as in "no impeachment needed."

Continuismo – the tendency of heads of state to extend their rule indefinitely – has been the lifeblood of Latin America's authoritarian tradition. The Constitution's provision of instant sanction might sound draconian, but every Latin American democrat knows how much of a threat to our fragile democracies continuismo presents. In Latin America, chiefs of state have often been above the law. The instant sanction of the supreme law has successfully prevented the possibility of a new Honduran continuismo.

The Supreme Court and the attorney general ordered Zelaya's arrest for disobeying several court orders compelling him to obey the Constitution. He was detained and taken to Costa Rica. Why? Congress needed time to convene and remove him from office. With him inside the country that would have been impossible. This decision was taken by the 123 (of the 128) members of Congress present that day.

Don't believe the coup myth. The Honduran military acted entirely within the bounds of the Constitution. The military gained nothing but the respect of the nation by its actions.

I am extremely proud of my compatriots. Finally, we have decided to stand up and become a country of laws, not men. From now on, here in Honduras, no one will be above the law.

Octavio Sánchez, a lawyer, is a former presidential adviser (2002-05) and minister of culture (2005-06) of the Republic of Honduras.

[xerex]

Under our Constitution, what happened in Honduras this past Sunday? Soldiers arrested and sent out of the country a Honduran citizen who, the day before, through his own actions had stripped himself of the presidency.

I wasnt aware exile without trial was approved under the Honduran constitution.

you learn news things everyday.

[Guardsman Bass]

I found a full copy of the current Honduran Constitution at the oceanalaw.com database. For some reason, I can't get the bloody link to work, so if you want, I can post the Honduran Constitution in its entireity (it's very long, though).

In any case, this is what it has to say about Presidential removal from office:

The National Congress shall have the following powers:

....

15. To declare whether or not there are grounds for impeachment of the President, Designates of the Presidency, Deputies to the National Congress, Magistrates of the Supreme Court of Justice, Members of the National Tribunal of Elections, Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces, Secretaries and Sub-Secretaries of State; Chiefs of Diplomatic Missions, the Comptroller and Sub-Comptroller General, the Procurator and Sub-Procurator General of the Republic, and Director and Sub-Director of Administrative Probity;

....

The Supreme Court of Justice shall have the following powers:

. . . .

2. To try official and common crimes of high functionaries of the Republic, when the National Congress has declared that there are grounds for impeachment;

. . . .

At least from what I read, there is no clearly defined method on how to remove a sitting President, other than that the National Congress determines whether impeachment is applicable, and the Supreme Court has the power to try them for it. Nor is there a clearly defined method for removing the President from power once the Court has ordered him removed.

[CmdrWilkens]

At least from what I read, there is no clearly defined method on how to remove a sitting President, other than that the National Congress determines whether impeachment is applicable, and the Supreme Court has the power to try them for it. Nor is there a clearly defined method for removing the President from power once the Court has ordered him removed.

The guy quoted above indicated that there is an article allowing for immediate removal from power anyone who even suggests changing the Presidential Term Limits. That seems to be the cruz. If the President can be summarily removed for doing so (and the Honduran Supreme Court would be the competent tribunal to decide so) then this was legal in so much as his removal. The extradition I'm not so sure about but the removal, if there is such a provision, would be above board.

[Guardsman Bass]

At least from what I read, there is no clearly defined method on how to remove a sitting President, other than that the National Congress determines whether impeachment is applicable, and the Supreme Court has the power to try them for it. Nor is there a clearly defined method for removing the President from power once the Court has ordered him removed.

The guy quoted above indicated that there is an article allowing for immediate removal from power anyone who even suggests changing the Presidential Term Limits. That seems to be the cruz. If the President can be summarily removed for doing so (and the Honduran Supreme Court would be the competent tribunal to decide so) then this was legal in so much as his removal. The extradition I'm not so sure about but the removal, if there is such a provision, would be above board.

The expulsion, then, would be the real question. I could see a justification for it in the fact that he has a recent history of using mob action to violate constitutional judgments - witness how he had his supporters break into the electoral offices and forcibly distribute ballots for his illegal referendum. Having him in the country, even in jail, might be incendiary.

[Hawkwings]

My initial complaint was that it would have been better to put him in jail instead of exiling him, that way he can be brought under control and possibly put on trial later. However, with the element of the mob, I can see the benefits of getting him out of the country as fast as possible.

What would have been better, of course, would have been to stick him in a jail but tell everyone he got flown off to somewhere.

In any case, I suspect a lot of the denouncements are coming because of a combination of two things. 1, the fact that the military removed him (which is unavoidable because really, who else is going to do it?) and 2, elected officials greeting this with welcoming words are gonna have to watch themselves a lot more carefully.

[xerex]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009 ... 617679.htm

The Honduran military put planes in the air over the airport to block the landing.

Tens of thousands of Mr Zelaya's supporters are at the airport.

It is believed three people were killed when troops and police opened fire at supporters of Mr Zelaya as they attempted to knock down a fence around the the tarmac.

[Guardsman Bass]

Polling suggests that Zelaya isn't particularly popular - his popularity in polls right now is 25%, down from 30%. Then again, I would be wary of taking those polls at face value; Honduran telephone connectivity is rather low, unless the poll contacted cell phones.

[xerex]

MOSCOW – Facing criticism for having backed the “wrong” side in the recent coup in Honduras, President Obama Tuesday tried to explain his advocacy on behalf of ousted President Manuel Zelaya.

“America supports now the restoration of the democratically-elected President of Honduras, even though he has strongly opposed American policies,” the president told graduate students at the commencement ceremony of Moscow’s New Economic School. “We do so not because we agree with him. We do so because we respect the universal principle that people should choose their own leaders, whether they are leaders we agree with or not. “

link

[Hawkwings]

What about the universal principle where people get rid of leaders they don't like? What about supporting the democratically-elected legislature of Honduras, who, by following their constitution, defended freedom and democracy for all Hondurans?

I look forward to a serious Q&A session with the questioner beating on all the tough points.

[Surlethe]

What about the universal principle where people get rid of leaders they don't like? What about supporting the democratically-elected legislature of Honduras, who, by following their constitution, defended freedom and democracy for all Hondurans?

Setting aside the question of whether the removal of the President was Constitutional, immediate military removal of unpopular leaders is not any sort of universally recognized principle. The whole point of a democracy is that there are mechanisms in place for removal of unpopular leaders without resorting to military coups. Now, if the Constitution calls for immediate removal, that's a different matter, but removal alone is not any plank of human rights.

[Hawkwings]

Granted, I haven't studied the Honduran constitution, but in the article that Shep posted, it says that the president will immediately cease in their functions, which the author interprets as "no impeachment necessary". And also as stated, there doesn't appear to be a clear mechanism for removing a president that loses his position. So while this action may have been a bit heavy-handed, it doesn't look like it was unlawful, or even skipping due process.