Mechwarrior 5! (Maybe)

[Stark]

Oh dear, I hear we're talking about 'auto-aiming', lol? RPG-lite pilot stats? I mean, lock-on systems incorporating layered capabilities are common in modern games (while less common in older games, particularly outside flightsims) but this isn't 'modern'. You're the one who consistently says xyz feature (of which indirect targeting is simply an example) should be rejected for no reason other than NOT BEING MECHWARRIOR-Y. I have no attachment to any MW mechanic whatever (since I've never been a fan of the game and have little interest in playing a new one) but you obviously have an attachment to keeping MW like MW. Prove you're not just a hidebound brandslave; propose even a SINGLE improvement your precious jewel of a franchise could withstand without forever ruining the brand. Most people find improving old games interesting and positive.

Reverting to arguing about brands just makes you MORE like NMA. Don't change the franchise! Be true to the history of the name! Don't worry about making the best game you can!

For a laugh, when do player statistics go from 'RPG' to 'RPG-lite'? I mean obviously it's retarded to think character skill would be the major factor in aiming a 80t robot, but since that's exactly how ... gee... pretty much every RPG does it, I'm interested to know if Fallout3 is also 'RPG-lite'.

[VF5SS]

"Proper Mech simulation?" Are you serious? I've played a lot of giant robot games and out all of them (especially those with first person views) Gungriffon is probably a better "simulation" than any Mechwarrior game. And you can also pick up and play it too without mucking about with the gritty details. I'm starting to forget what was ever engaging about this gameplay. Mechwarrior never even surpassed its copy cats like G-Nome or Iron Soldier. Oh look I can shoot his leg off I feel like my personal pilot skills are so badass. Clearly this is better than a game that would force me to focus on maneuvering like those dirty non-Mechwarrior games.

[Czechmate]

I cannot put into words how happy this news makes me. Especially since one of my closest friends got me into Btech and I routinely spend loads of time reading up on it.

[VF5SS]

LEG SHOOTING SIMULATOR!

Optional tea-bagging and garbage music included.

[Stark]

Even more complex and interesting mech games of similar vintage (like Heavy Gear, say) quickly became a massively boring repetition of 'drive to nav point 1,2,3 then shoot a bunch of guys in the head/legs with lasers'.

[VF5SS]

I think Heavy Gear 1 was based on the Mechwarrior 2 engine. Heavy Gear 2 did away with the location damage tracking and simplified everything to a lifebar. Then again, everyone just started jump jetting around while firing bazookas at where they thought the other guy was going to land in hopes of using the splash damage to penetrate the weaker leg armor for a one-shot kill. Argh. Maybe I should be hating the players and not the games.

[Vympel]

Heavy Gear II was such a disappointment compared to the original.

[Imperial Overlord]

I think Heavy Gear 1 was based on the Mechwarrior 2 engine. Heavy Gear 2 did away with the location damage tracking and simplified everything to a lifebar. Then again, everyone just started jump jetting around while firing bazookas at where they thought the other guy was going to land in hopes of using the splash damage to penetrate the weaker leg armor for a one-shot kill. Argh. Maybe I should be hating the players and not the games.

Broken game mechanics tend to exploited. That's one of the reasons "the game mechanics suck" is a valid criticism of RPGS and computer games and "I spent a massive amount of effort house ruling them into sensibility" is not an excuse.

[Commander 598]

Welp, it's official now:

http://pc.ign.com/articles/100/1002275p1.html

July 8, 2009 - It's one of the worst kept gaming secrets of the week, but IGN can confirm that Piranha Games and Smith and Tinker are indeed working on a brand new MechWarrior game. While the game was supposed to be revealed midnight tonight, Pacific time, Piranha's PR agency Union Entertainment got ahead of the news by sending out an email congratulating the two companies on MechWarrior and, ironically, telling recipients to visit IGN at 12:01 AM PDT on Thursday to get the details and see the full trailer.

So make sure to check back later tonight for the very first details about the game, as well as an in-depth discussion with the key developers, and the trailer.

And on the subject of gameplay, I believe that using the term "auto-aim" is misleading people into thinking bad things, call it "Automated Target Tracking", which is honestly something that should be obvious to giant bipedal robots in the year 3000 AD, however make it optional. Also no to RPG stats.

Also should note that if the gameplay is like MW4 autoaim is probably just going to make it even more boring.

On the leg sniping issue, could it possibly relate to a combination of poor view distance, small maps, poor terrain, and weapons that can't really be used in a proper fashion?

[Stark]

It's just due to the realities of the game; very accurate weapons against ablative hitpoints on targets that are half the height of the enemy. It doesn't help that the AI often appears to stop and face you while shooting instead of manouvring around (which they do even in the tabletop).

This sort of thing should be REALLY REALLY obvious. Accurate guns vs giant weakpoints with hitpoints (instead of resistances or whatever) means pew pew your leg's off. You either have to make the legs smaller, make targets move more (which would give a role for FCS, lol), change the (fucking stupid) way armour works, or change the way weapons are brought to bear on targets. The damage/armour model is also why stacking 15 medium lasers (or whatever) is done instead of a 'rounded' weapon set. Saying 'roffle leg doesn't come off now' is an example of a compromise solution that doesn't really address the issue at all. In Heavy Gear agility and inaccuracy were both used (along with cover) to make the game more of a crapshoot, but it was still broken.

In short, to NOT snipe legs, you basically have to do what Overlord says - just hope players WON'T DO IT, and instead grind through the much thicker torso armour.

[Nephtys]

Know what'd be a MUCH MUCH better way to do a giant robot game? Give the mechs blow-off panel armor. As in, ablative, but not that stupid 'being hit in the toe is the same as being hit in the knee' nonsense. After being hit by a reasonable sized shot, the armor plate hit explodes, preventing damage for another half second or two, so you have to actually... have... *gasp* control of your weapons, instead of firing away. The enemy can then turn or something to prevent you from getting a shot at that area to damage internals. So to maximize your chances of scoring a vital hit, you need to make shots carefully instead of alpha-striking.

That'd actually be fun, watching robots rotate and move, firing away at each other to shield weak armor segments and blown-off areas from enemy concentrated attack. Almost like... Gasp! Battletech!

[Lord Relvenous]

Prove you're not just a hidebound brandslave; propose even a SINGLE improvement your precious jewel of a franchise could withstand without forever ruining the brand. Most people find improving old games interesting and positive.

I already mentioned that I like MW4, so I'll go ahead and answer this:
Take into account where the weapon is mounted on the Mech and giving it tracking abilities accordingly. Example: an arm mounted weapon could track in maybe a 60 degree arc, a weapon mounted on the torso would have very slight tracking abilities, maybe 5 degrees or some other small number to represent the small amount of play, and a weapon built into into the torso would have no tracking abilities. Engage these tracking abilities after the player had designated the targeted area by resting the reticle on it. I target the enemy Mech's leg, the system will track the leg, but drift across the areas of the legs, representing the weapons attempting to maintain a lock as I and my target move. Incorporate the before mentioned idea of individual plate damage instead of big damage areas. To keep the damage representation similar, represent damaged areas in green to red, but more like a thermal map than a blueprint, with the damage not applied to the whole generic area, but only the areas you hit. Adjust the accuracy of the tracking system based on how relative speed and direction of the target and the firer. This way it's still important to be able to line up the target Mech, but you don't have unrealistic damage effects like a Mech losing it's leg because you alpha-struck its toe. The tracking system makes weapons mounted on mobile parts of the Mech (arms, turrets and such) more valuable, but also more vulnerable, as they are easier to destroy.

I don't think that change would significantly change the overall feel of MW, but it would decrease some of the problems you mentioned. Another change could be heat dissipation from lasers, so that a laser would effect a larger area of armor, but do less pinpoint damage, while a well timed auto cannon shot in close range could do damage to a more specific area. At larger ranges, a multiple shot ballistic weapon could scatter slightly, distributing the damage over a large area.

Damage to areas could effect Mech capabilities in more subtle ways also. A significantly damaged shoulder could result in a weapon being unable to track left right, while an elbow would do the same thing to vertical tracking. Damage to the center torso could increase heat as the shielding around the fusion engine is damaged. A damaged hip would result in slower turning, while a damaged knee would slow you down. Damaged cockpit would decrease tracking abilities and increase weapon drift.

Those are just some quick ideas.

[Stark]

Yeah, complexity made possible by computer backends (like wandering aimpoints, different FCS/suspension trying to keep guns on target as you move, etc) is a good way to manage that sort of issue. Ironically, Armored Core had that in like, 1998. I believe the MW games had 'torso lag', right, where the torso behaved as if it had mass when you waved it around?

[CaptHawkeye]

Nephty's is hitting in the right direction. I want to see MW drop its stupid health-bar based damage model and go for something that works like real ballistics models. What angle did the shell/laser hit? What was it made of? What was the armour made of? Fuck the "opps my toe took 50 damage LEG GO BYE BYE. Throw in more defensive customizations like non-shit countermeasures and additonal Shurzen-style armour plates.

Actually Stark clarified their is a difference between "auto aim" and "fire control" which I just forgot about. I'd be in favor of a "fire control system" on mechs, not to mention an increase in other subsystems. This way, smaller mechs could actually be used against heavier mechs successfully and everyone wouldn't run around JUST using Assault Mechs. "Oh no, my directors have been disabled!"

And did anyone else think the power scaling of Mechs has always been retarded? Small, Medium? Heavy? Assault? Big mech, bigger mech, zomgwankmech?!

[Vendetta]

I want to see MW drop its stupid health-bar based damage model and go for something that works like real ballistics models. What angle did the shell/laser hit? What was it made of? What was the armour made of?

I'm not sure how much that would enhance the user experience, if at all. It might sound like a nice idea, but it makes it harder for players to judge just how effective their attacks are being, and whether their mech is in good shape or not. Which, y'know, they're going to be needing to do in order to actually play the game.

There's a tendency to think that More Complicated = More Better, but it's almost never the case.

[Serafina]

There already IS a new mechwarrior game in the making: Mech Warrior: Living Legends. It's a full-conversion mod for Crysis thats already pretty far developed AND has a license from Microsoft.

I'm propably going to prefer Mach Warrior: Living Legends above MechWarrio 5. After all, its made for multiplayer, and thats where the real fun lies.

[Vendetta]

And now there's another. Though actually it's just called MechWarrior, not MechWarrior 5.

[Darksider]

and there's a trailer up.

Are they using the Unseen version of the Warhammer, or is that the re-design. It looks like the unseen to me.

[Darksider]

EDIT: just checked chaosmarch, and that's the Unseen version with slight modifications.

Someone in Japan is about to go apeshit.

[Vehrec]

Man, isn't it hilarious how those missiles spin all over the place? Well, at least one weapon system will be preforming up to usual mecha scum standards of low accuracy.

[VF5SS]

Someone in Japan is about to go apeshit.

Excuse me while I inform Big West :3

At the very least maybe sales of Yamato's Destroid Tomahawk will go up. I have that toy. It's awesome.

[Uraniun235]

EDIT: just checked chaosmarch, and that's the Unseen version with slight modifications.

Someone in Japan is about to go apeshit.

Nah, it's cool, nobody in Japan plays games on PC, they won't notice. :V


EDIT: Damn, I forgot my webhost shit its pants... need to re-upload the :V smiley.

[CaptHawkeye]

So Smith and Tinker and Pirahna games are involved? Collectively they are FASA studios. According to the developers this isn't necessarily "Mechwarrior 5" as much as it is Mechwarrior franchise reboot. Hey it's been working in Hollywood, what with Star Trek and Batman. I guess the thing these days is going to be rebooting old PC franchise? Time will tell.

3015 places the game well before the Clan Invasions. Nice to see them exploring a different era. But i'll still miss my Mad Cat.

[Vympel]

This game's probably gonna suck. The developer, AFAIK, has never made anything good, so why would they start now?

[Vendetta]

EDIT: just checked chaosmarch, and that's the Unseen version with slight modifications.

Someone in Japan is about to go apeshit.

It's worth noting that MechCommander had at least Maruders and Warhammers in, and nobody bawwwed about it.

This game's probably gonna suck. The developer, AFAIK, has never made anything good, so why would they start now?

Sadly true, their latest has been the latest Transformers cash in, notable for having awful and awkward controls and uninspired missions and gameplay.