Mono-gender society - viable?

[LaCroix]

I had a nice discussion with my wife today after the news told that somewhere, they managed to make sperm from stem cells. she argued that this might make men obsolete, and it evolved into a discussion about do they really need each other?

So given the scenario that ther is only one gender left on the planet (for whatever reason)

What society would be able to exist, and what were the problems attached?
Eggs or sperm are made by using one partner's stem cells.

In the pure male society babys are grown in tanks, since men can't carry them to term. The females are able to do that, too, if wanted.

My wife argued that men wouldn't be able to organize such a life, since they always foret on tiny things, and won't be able to raise kids proper. Also, they are to comperative and might have a lots of wars.

I pointed out that there are some male organisations (military, monasteries, some schools) which function fine without women, and of course, men who aren't good with children won't be teachers. Also, I believe that without woman around to impress, we could be less boisterous.

The woman society, I think, would be fareing ok, but I am riddled if the need for gossip, mobbing and the usual way to deal with problems I found common with most women I know would cause a problem. Basically, moste women of said soiety won't be on speaking terms with each other because "they were told that she said to her that she had told her about..." My wife refused to talk to me after that.

Overall, I think both societies would work to some degree.

[PeZook]

My wife argued that men wouldn't be able to organize such a life, since they always foret on tiny things, and won't be able to raise kids proper. Also, they are to comperative and might have a lots of wars.

Men "always forget tiny things", thus they won't be able to organize a society?

How does that follow? Plenty of men are able to organize just fine. We have problems with dividing attention and are more agressive...thus our children may turn out more messed up than current standard, but this is a far cry from being "unable" to raise them. Hell, male children were raised mostly by men throughout most of history: Sparta is one example of a semi-functional society where boys spent most of their time in a stricly male environment, and noble sons of medieval europe (and, even more so, the middle east) are another example.

Somehow, the Middle East managed to be a bastion of learning and progress for centuries, despite its wildly patriarchal society.

As for the amount of wars...our current society is almost totally patriarchal, and it's always men who decide when and who to fight. So...I don't think it would be much worse than our current state of affairs.

I pointed out that there are some male organisations (military, monasteries, some schools) which function fine without women, and of course, men who aren't good with children won't be teachers. Also, I believe that without woman around to impress, we could be less boisterous.

Now you're just being a tool: if all females were gone, we'd still keep our genes. Almost everything men do to prove their skill/athletic ability/smarts/strenght and thus show themselves a superior mate, they do entire subconsciously. Hell, most vehemently deny their activities have anything to do with proving their suitability as a mate to women.

The woman society, I think, would be fareing ok, but I am riddled if the need for gossip, mobbing and the usual way to deal with problems I found common with most women I know would cause a problem. Basically, moste women of said soiety won't be on speaking terms with each other because "they were told that she said to her that she had told her about..." My wife refused to talk to me after that.

Oh please...I really hope this wasn't meant to be a logical argument.

[TheLostVikings]

My wife argued that men wouldn't be able to organize such a life, since they always forget on tiny things, and won't be able to raise kids proper. Also, they are to competitive and might have a lots of wars.

Fun fact: No kid raised by a single dad ever turned out okay. No, not ever.

The woman society, I think, would be faring ok, but I am riddled if the need for gossip, mobbing and the usual way to deal with problems I found common with most women I know would cause a problem. Basically, most women of said society won't be on speaking terms with each other because "they were told that she said to her that she had told her about..." My wife refused to talk to me after that.

In other words, she proved you right!

But seriously, how is this even a question? Single parents of both genders exist, and they usually manage just fine. For most of recorded history society has been ruled largely by men, but whenever a woman rose to power the world still remained intact, so apparently they can manage to rule too. What a surprise.

P.S.
A fairly comprehensive study I read recently concluded that about 70% domestic violence involve the husband being the victim, so so much for your female only world being just roses and butterflies...

P.P.S.
Gender stereotypes are generally exaggerated anyways.

[LaCroix]

In fact, we were joking around with stereotypes, but since some have a grain of truth behind them, I thought it might be nice to see if there is anything factual behind.

So, if we take the domestic violence study, it might be that a female society is even more violent than a male one? I wonder if the Duchess has something about that. I weakly remember her to have data on female warriors.

But given that mobbing is widespread in female dominated offices (I know at least 5 cases), while virtually unheard of in male offices (at least I don't know any cases), my personal experience tells me it might be well possible.

[Hawkwings]

Let's just say that I'd rather be in a workplace of all men than a workplace of all women. In fact, I probably will be in a 90%+ male workplace. Outside of that, I'd say precious few of us have experience being around just men or women for months at a time, let alone years.

[Lord of the Abyss]

I think that a monogender society would tend to have some problems that we don't ( or exaggerated versions of problems we DO have ), since I think that each gender tends to moderate the tendencies of the other. But given history, it seems that they'd survive just fine.

[Solauren]

Picture a society of heterosexual males without any females to help us deal with tension (even just by being their).
Or, do females without males.

In otherwords, fill the plan with angry virgins.

Yeah, that will work.

[Dark Hellion]

This is the plot of the anime Vandread BTW. They do some job of addressing it, so check it out.

[Samuel]

This is the plot of the anime Vandread BTW. They do some job of addressing it, so check it out.

Don't they also have the characters revert to heterosexuality in an amazing quick timeperiod? I don't think that makes sense- you'd have homosexuality genetically engineered, if only to prevent the populance so going nuts.

[Lord of the Abyss]

Another example would be A World Out Of Time by Niven. A form of immortality was discovered that froze aging before puberty, leading to two societies; the Boys and the Girls. Eventually they drifted into a genocidal war with each other; without sex they had nothing to pull them together. The Girls were exterminated, the Boys reduced to bands of survivors.

Niven mentions the old joke that "The problem with the war between the sexes is all the fraternization with the enemy"; if there's no "fraternization" . . .

[Dark Hellion]

This is the plot of the anime Vandread BTW. They do some job of addressing it, so check it out.

Don't they also have the characters revert to heterosexuality in an amazing quick timeperiod? I don't think that makes sense- you'd have homosexuality genetically engineered, if only to prevent the populance so going nuts.

Well, they had only been mongendered for ~3-4 generations with an implication that a lot of the homosexuality was simply societal, which was causing them major problems. There was also a suggestion that there was some genetic engineering to make for more pronounced sexual characteristics and some hypersexuality. The characters also do take a long time (half a year or so) to come to terms with the idea of the other half as sexual partners as opposed to simply morphologically and psychologically similar enemies.

[LaCroix]

You don't need genetical engineering for that.

When no woman are available, men do adopt homosexual practise rather fast. Also, homosexuality was widespread in grece, and these men were still married to women and had children.

The virgins are usually angry that they do NOT get women/men while the others do. Since there are no opposite gender mates anymore available for everyone, the need for anger evaporates. If you want a sexual relationship you have to resort to homosexuality. Or farmstock. I foresee an upswing in sheep breeding on that male planet.

[Solauren]

This is the plot of the anime Vandread BTW. They do some job of addressing it, so check it out.

Don't they also have the characters revert to heterosexuality in an amazing quick timeperiod? I don't think that makes sense- you'd have homosexuality genetically engineered, if only to prevent the populance so going nuts.

Well, they had only been mongendered for ~3-4 generations with an implication that a lot of the homosexuality was simply societal, which was causing them major problems. There was also a suggestion that there was some genetic engineering to make for more pronounced sexual characteristics and some hypersexuality. The characters also do take a long time (half a year or so) to come to terms with the idea of the other half as sexual partners as opposed to simply morphologically and psychologically similar enemies.

Oh, bullshit it took them 6 months or more. Once those pilot girls figured out what he could do for them, they were on Hebeky (or however you spell his name) faster then a starving man on a cheeseburger.

[Samuel]

You'd think they figure out it out alot quicker if the two sides were constant enemies with each other. Or was the concept of taking prisoners, defectors and diplomacy foreign to them?

[Coalition]

You'd think they figure out it out alot quicker if the two sides were constant enemies with each other. Or was the concept of taking prisoners, defectors and diplomacy foreign to them?

It was. The first episode had a propaganda movie that said women were horrible monsters who would eat a guy's internal organs if they caught him. Wish I could find it on Youtube so I could link it. Plus it was two separate planets, so space combat with energy weaponry and contact nukes tends to leave few survivors. Add to it when the female pirates boarded the male ship, they were in spacesuits with weird facemasks.

Add in the concept of 'cooties' when the female pirate crew saw a guy (the male doctor was in Engineering to help with a cold).

There is also the potential that the planets were designed that way, to have the two sexes develop separately (based on intel from the Harvest Fleet Database). Of course, there probably was espionage going on between the two sides, but that was only at very high levels. Makes you wonder how they managed to get agents to the other side.

Several weeks ago there was a link from here to a site that had the first four episodes for free online. Here it is.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I created an all-female society called Kaetjhasti by means of M. wolbachia infection of a population of Malay colonists of the continent of Zealandia, surfaced on a parallel Earth--been writing some fiction set there.

The key to what happened though was that the infection rendered men sterile so when they realized it they went crazy, and the population ultimately kept plummeting in the region infected, until they were only about 2.5 million women alive who formed the genesis of the future population. That created a winnowing process in which groups of females who were closer to each (and often evidenced it through homosexual activity) were better at acquiring resources and dividing tasks that had previously been divided based on gender, allowing for their improved survival. That meant that women willing to participate in sex on the same grounds bonobos have lots of sex--as a group bonding activity--survived the collapse of civilization caused by all the men endlessly fighting and killing each other in the panic and rage of the plagues, and the loss of their skills to that civilization. End result was that the issue of sex was largely settled because the society is made up of genetically identical clonal motherlines and those lines were selected during the collapse toward the ones most likely to be alright with homosexual activities.

A tight gerontocracy which is hyper-respectful of age and has caste distinctions based on Hinduism (similar to the Balinese) where certain castes take over the more masculine social roles was the end result, and I see no reason why it would prove incapable of functioning as a broader modern nation: In particular they were able to stave off colonization because they already had gunpowder courtesy of trade with the Chinese before the plague took place, and the arquebus nicely levels out early modern combat to render the advantage of male physical strength far less relevant. The end result is a rather paranoid and very alien society of motherlines and grand clan-homes for 30 - 40 descendants with little geographic mobility where sex is used, like among bonobos, as the cement of social bonding rituals, but even moreso as it's entirely divorced from reproduction, and the entire society's laws of employment are based around occasional and random disability due to pregnancy. Favouritism is simply commonly accepted, not even a problem, because instead of being focused on nepotism of one's offspring one would genetically essentially have the same feelings toward all of one's relatives.

I see largely any matriarchal society that's vaguely plausible developing on those lines, and furthermore there'd be a very strong tendency if it is based on clonal lines like the Kaetjhasti example for an entire family to trend toward the same jobs in life. Children would unquestionably be raised communally by the entire family, and the main taboo around sex would be a prohibitation on relations within a single motherline. More creepily however I could see, as an aspect of their being clones, "line marriages" where your children get involved with your partner's children (since they're raised in separate large extended households), as do their children, or cousins, and so on, and so on. Obviously those factors don't exist if genetic recombination is possible. A clonal society could exist for quite some time, though, like the whiptail lizards which have been reproducing parthenogenically for a very long time, so though they might be doomed to extinction by lack of genetic diversity except for spontaneous mutation in the long run, in the short term of the history of human civilization they'd have no notable problems, and would in fact be genetically healthier than we are since the Kaetjhasti Dark Age, for example, invariably resulted in the death of the crippled and mentally infirm and without DNA recombination in the reproduction process, recessive traits would stay recessive.

[Samuel]

The key to what happened though was that the infection rendered men sterile so when they realized it they went crazy,

Why would men all go crazy?

Also, the society seems rather plausible except that the lack of genetic diversity means they are extremely vulnerable to disease. That, and how are kids produced?

The first episode had a propaganda movie that said women were horrible monsters who would eat a guy's internal organs if they caught him.

Why do I find this hilarious?

[Junghalli]

Also, the society seems rather plausible except that the lack of genetic diversity means they are extremely vulnerable to disease. That, and how are kids produced?

I think I can guess from looking up the disease she mentioned (Wolbachia):

Within arthropods, Wolbachia is notable for significantly altering the reproductive capabilities of its hosts. These bacteria can infect many different types of organs, but are most notable for the infections of the testes and ovaries of their hosts.

Wolbachia are known to cause four different phenotypes:

Male killing: death of infected males.
Feminization: infected males develop as females or infertile pseudo-females.
Parthenogenesis: reproduction of infected females without males. Some scientists have suggested that parthenogenesis may always be attributable to the effects of Wolbachia.[6] An example of a parthenogenic species would be the Trichogramma wasp.[5] This wasp has evolved to procreate without males with the help of Wolbachia. Males are rare in this tiny species of insect, possibly because many have been killed by that very same strain of Wolbachia. [7]
Cytoplasmic incompatibility: the inability of Wolbachia-infected males to successfully reproduce with uninfected females or females infected with another Wolbachia strain.

I don't know how well that would work in humans though. We mammals are probably not genetically well-suited to asexual reproduction. Look at the trouble they had creating the fatherless mouse. Out of 457 attempts only 10 made it to term, and 9 of those died before they reached adulthood. And that was after artificial intervention to compensate for the lack of paternal epigenetic imprinting. And this is fusion of two egg cells, not parthenogenesis, which is even worse because you get issues with gene dosage as well as imprinting. From the same article, parthenogenic embryos in mammals typically die in a week or two of gestation.

Obviously those factors don't exist if genetic recombination is possible. A clonal society could exist for quite some time, though, like the whiptail lizards which have been reproducing parthenogenically for a very long time, so though they might be doomed to extinction by lack of genetic diversity except for spontaneous mutation in the long run, in the short term of the history of human civilization they'd have no notable problems, and would in fact be genetically healthier than we are since the Kaetjhasti Dark Age, for example, invariably resulted in the death of the crippled and mentally infirm and without DNA recombination in the reproduction process, recessive traits would stay recessive.

I wouldn't be so sure about the "healthier" part with Wolbachia as a mechanism ... see above. Even if by some miracle you get viable offspring (which realistically would probably require Alien Space Bats), they'd probably be rather fucked up genetically.

[Junghalli]

Ghetto Edit (blasted time limit):

Ah, doing some more looking, Wolbachia induced parthenogenesis creates diploid offspring, so the problems with the viability of mammalian parthenogenesis aren't an issue.

Parthenogenesis-inducing (PI) Wolbachia manipulate the chromosome behavior in unfertilized infected eggs, by causing the first mitotic division to abort, resulting in the formation of a diploid nucleus and female development (Stouthamer and Kazmer, 1994).

Link.

Although I still have doubts about it realistically being able to do the same thing to mammals it does to insects without fucking the offspring up horribly. We have a rather different chromosome structure from these wasps.

[Lord of the Abyss]

The first episode had a propaganda movie that said women were horrible monsters who would eat a guy's internal organs if they caught him.

Why do I find this hilarious?

Because extremist propaganda generally sounds ridiculous to someone who hasn't already been taught to think in that direction. Look at some of the real-world ridiculous propaganda that gets bought into, that no one outside it's target audience buys. Jews sacrificing Christian babies is about as ridiculous as women eating internal organs, yet it's been said and believed.

[Samuel]

The first episode had a propaganda movie that said women were horrible monsters who would eat a guy's internal organs if they caught him.

Why do I find this hilarious?

Because extremist propaganda generally sounds ridiculous to someone who hasn't already been taught to think in that direction. Look at some of the real-world ridiculous propaganda that gets bought into, that no one outside it's target audience buys. Jews sacrificing Christian babies is about as ridiculous as women eating internal organs, yet it's been said and believed.

No- I mean, this was badly timed. I just had a nightmare about people being eaten like french fries.

On that note, I guess I can't fault them due to not being natural cultures, but if you had that situation with normal people, they would figure it out very quickly. Humans just don't have that much sexual dimorphism to assume they are different species (although if you make the two groups different ethnicities you might do better). That and you could probably figure it out during the first dissection. All the organs being in the same place and same size is a minor clue. Do the higher ups know the truth because you'd think the clue would accumulate rather fast- of course, they could simply refuse to believe it.

Makes you wonder how they managed to get agents to the other side.

You mean disguise or transit?

[The Duchess of Zeon]

The key to what happened though was that the infection rendered men sterile so when they realized it they went crazy,

Why would men all go crazy?

Because they're getting old and nobody at all is having any sons and it's being blamed on the wraith of the Gods, so fanatic kalist thugee cults and such proliferate, followed by the actual collapse as the women can't take over the tasks of the aging men fast enough to keep civilization going without a 150-year interruption with major loss of life.

Also, the society seems rather plausible except that the lack of genetic diversity means they are extremely vulnerable to disease. That, and how are kids produced?

See Junghali's analysis; I set the thing on a parallel Earth, so that it wouldn't have to be super-super-accurate, anyway. But it was intended as a serious investigation of an all-female society, and that's as plausible as I could go in developing one in the past, without relying on advanced technology at which point it all becomes futurist speculation anyway.

[madd0ct0r]

So it's in the past but women are incapable of taking over the male jobs fast enough?

Assuming absolute seperation of roles (possible) and that it's not a vaugely matriarchal society to start with (possible) are you really saying all the skilled males would refuse to teach their daughters when there are no young men present to inherit the tradition?

Likewise, I'm not sure about the men all joining thugge cults. At least some would volunteer to protect the females, for the fringe benefits if nothing else.
I can see the overall tech and knowledge base taking a dip, but not a 150yr collapse you're talking about.



um. Unless 90% of the male pop was killed off the this bug overnight that is. that would work

[madd0ct0r]

So it's in the past but women are incapable of taking over the male jobs fast enough?

Assuming absolute seperation of roles (possible) and that it's not a vaugely matriarchal society to start with (possible) are you really saying all the skilled males would refuse to teach their daughters when there are no young men present to inherit the tradition?

Likewise, I'm not sure about the men all joining thugge cults. At least some would volunteer to protect the females, for the fringe benefits if nothing else.
I can see the overall tech and knowledge base taking a dip, but not a 150yr collapse you're talking about.



um. Unless 90% of the male pop was killed off the this bug overnight that is. that would work

[The Duchess of Zeon]

So it's in the past but women are incapable of taking over the male jobs fast enough?

Assuming absolute seperation of roles (possible) and that it's not a vaugely matriarchal society to start with (possible) are you really saying all the skilled males would refuse to teach their daughters when there are no young men present to inherit the tradition?

Likewise, I'm not sure about the men all joining thugge cults. At least some would volunteer to protect the females, for the fringe benefits if nothing else.
I can see the overall tech and knowledge base taking a dip, but not a 150yr collapse you're talking about.



um. Unless 90% of the male pop was killed off the this bug overnight that is. that would work

Collapses of civilizations have happened for far less serious reasons before. There were certainly other factors at work; for example the western cities of Sahul had already collapsed due to migration eastward and Islamic raiding. Also it wasn't like a total "living in mud huts" collapse but more like 6th century Rome. There's just a lot of social inertia to be undone.