Solution to US health care problem: medical credit cards!

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Solution to US health care problem: medical credit cards!

Post by Darth Wong »

Yes, the financial industry is issuing special credit cards to help Americans with their staggering $300 billion yearly out of pocket medical expenses. What can possibly go wrong with this idea?
http://money.cnn.com/2009/07/09/news/ec ... tm?cnn=yes
Can't pay your doctor? Charge it!
As more cash-strapped Americans resort to paying medical bills on credit cards, experts say it's a risky trend for consumers but a huge untapped market for lenders.
By Parija B. Kavilanz, CNNMoney.com senior writer
Last Updated: July 9, 2009: 9:30 AM ET

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- As medical bills pile up, more Americans are paying their doctors with plastic.

Consumer advocates warn that this is a dangerous trend, but industry watchers see a multi-billion dollar opportunity for lenders to offer specialized "medical" credit cards.

"Out-of-pocket health care spending was already increasing in good times," said Bruce Carlson, publisher with health care market research firm Kalorama Information. "Now with high unemployment, consumers have to reach into their pockets even more to fund their health care."

Americans spend an estimated $294 billion on annual out-of-pocket medical costs annually, to cover everything from doctor's office co-payments to surgeries and prescription medications.

About 25% of that -- around $74 billion -- is already being charged to regular standard credit cards, according to Kalorama. McKinsey Consulting expects that $150 billion worth of health care expenses will go on credit cards by 2015.

Meanwhile, more than 79 million Americans are already struggling to pay off their medical expenses, according to the non-profit Commonwealth Fund.

Regardless, Kalorama's Carlson says that health care related credit is an obvious target market for financial services providers. With retail shopping drying up, lenders need new ways to boost consumer credit card balances.

"Medical expenses are costs that consumers can't avoid unlike other discretionary purchases that they're cutting back on. So why not get into financing it?" he said.

At the same time, doctors and hospitals are having a harder time than ever collecting what they are owed by patients, making fast and easy credit card payments an appealing option.

Some lenders are already in the market. GE Money and Citibank both offer special credit cards that can only be used for elective medical procedures, such as LASIK vision correction, liposuction and cosmetic dentistry, which are generally paid for out of pocket.

GE Money's CareCredit card, for instance, limits its 7 million or so customers to using the card within a special network of doctors.

But just like any other credit card, one missed payment can trigger an interest rate jump up to 27%.

New to the market this week is a Mastercard-branded card, issued by MasterCard Worldwide and OptumHealth, a unit of insurer United Healthcare. This card acts as a debit card rather than a credit card, and draws money down from existing health care funds like consumers' health savings accounts and flexible spending accounts. (Spokespeople for MasterCard and Visa declined to comment on the story.)

This is probably just the tip of the iceberg. Carlson is betting that the next generation of medical credit cards to hit the market will offer consumers designated lines of credit to use exclusively to pay for standard medical costs like copayments and prescriptions.

Still, GE Money spokesperson Cristi Williams says that the company "doesn't see the need to go into other areas of medical financing."

And David Robertson, publisher of industry newsletter the Nilson Report expects medical credit cards will remain a niche market.

"Given the (financial) difficulties that Americans are under, I'm sure there will be some interest in these products," he said. "But you also have to balance the desire of consumers with the reality that lenders face," Robertson said, referring to the credit crunch that has forced lenders to tighten their belts.

Bad for your health? One thing that is clear is that the moderate-to-low income consumers who will be most tempted to use credit cards to pay basic medical expenses are the ones who can least afford to take on more debt.

"[It's] a worrisome trend," said Mark Rukavina, executive director of Access Project, a nonprofit consumer health advocacy group. "Credit cards give an illusion of security," he said. "It will just delay the day of reckoning and could become the final push into bankruptcy." He advises that, "Unless there's a risk of losing life or limb, don't use them."

To his point, about 1.5 million Americans will declare bankruptcy this year -- and 60% of those filings are estimated to be tied to medical bills.

There are alternatives to paying medical bills with credit cards said Rukavina. Patients can try to cut deals with their doctor or hospital; medical providers often negotiate bills and payment schedules with consumers in financial trouble. Some providers also offer charity care, which is free or reduced charges for treatment, that consumers don't know about.

Of course, none of this addresses the larger issue of increasingly unmanagable health care costs, said Rukavina.

"Frankly," he said, "meaningful health care reform is the only real solution to bringing down costs and enabling more people to pay their (medical) bills."
I love the bit where the experts say it's a risky but huge untapped financial services market.
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Re: Solution to US health care problem: medical credit cards!

Post by General Zod »

Because subprime credit was such a fantastic idea the first time around. Clearly we need more ways to sink the economy.
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Re: Solution to US health care problem: medical credit cards!

Post by aerius »

I can already think of several ways to abuse the system, so the end result is medical care is going to be even more unaffordable since they now have to jack up the fees to cover the scams and losses from credit card defaults. Financials and the HMO/insurance industry will once again be laughing all the way to the bank, at least until everyone starts defaulting and filing chapter 7 bankruptcy at which point they'll go grab a ton of free bailouts from the government.
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Re: Solution to US health care problem: medical credit cards!

Post by LaCroix »

That's the 'merican way of life. Charge and forget.

I don't understand those bankers, neither. "Risky" and "yet untapped" are THE 2(3) words telling anybody sane to stay the heck out of there. How many times do they think the Gouvernment can actually bail them out?
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Re: Solution to US health care problem: medical credit cards!

Post by Solauren »

I believe my jaw actually broke the speed of light before hitting the ground when I saw this...

Are they fucking Serious? Remember last year with the Credit Criss tanked the world economy?

Considering that, what is it, 2/3 of all bankruptcies are caused by Medical bills, this is the stupidest and worst idea in the history of stupid ideas!
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Re: Solution to US health care problem: medical credit cards!

Post by Serafina »

The worst thing is: How is this supposed to help you paying expensive medical treatment?
A credit card is not of much use if you have a medical bill of 100.000$ or more?

Those medical credit cards may actually be usefull for minor medical bills - but not if the shit really hits the fan and you need a surgery for tens or hundreds of thoudsands of dollars. And thats whats most important about insurances: paying the bills you can NOT pay on your own. And those credit cards are not going to do that.
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Re: Solution to US health care problem: medical credit cards!

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Oberst Tharnow wrote:The worst thing is: How is this supposed to help you paying expensive medical treatment?
A credit card is not of much use if you have a medical bill of 100.000$ or more?
No, but credit cards can easily have limits of tens of thousands of dollars. If I wanted to, I could go out right now and blow fifty thousand dollars on credit.
Those medical credit cards may actually be usefull for minor medical bills - but not if the shit really hits the fan and you need a surgery for tens or hundreds of thoudsands of dollars. And thats whats most important about insurances: paying the bills you can NOT pay on your own. And those credit cards are not going to do that.
No, but they will ensure that you are heavily indebted to the lenders. What makes you think they give a shit about whether their products actually help you? Their products are intended to help them.
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Re: Solution to US health care problem: medical credit cards!

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LaCroix wrote:That's the 'merican way of life. Charge and forget.

I don't understand those bankers, neither. "Risky" and "yet untapped" are THE 2(3) words telling anybody sane to stay the heck out of there. How many times do they think the Gouvernment can actually bail them out?
You clearly don't understand the 'merican way of life. "Risky" means "high rates of return", and "untapped" means "get there now before everybody else does". Who cares if it's ultimately a bad idea if you can make a killing profit off the initial growth of the industry?
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Re: Solution to US health care problem: medical credit cards!

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Surlethe wrote:You clearly don't understand the 'merican way of life. "Risky" means "high rates of return", and "untapped" means "get there now before everybody else does". Who cares if it's ultimately a bad idea if you can make a killing profit off the initial growth of the industry?
Yup, it's all about front-running the bubble which you or your associates created. Get in early and you're laughing since you can sell your holdings to the suckers who follow you in before the bubble implodes. And if that doesn't work, you get your bribed buddies in government to give you a nice fat bailout. I've seen it referred to as "bubble-nomics" on a blog somewhere.
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Re: Solution to US health care problem: medical credit cards!

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Because, at all costs, we must obviate the danger of America beginning any flirtation with SOCIALISM. Even if it bankrupts the country in the process.

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Re: Solution to US health care problem: medical credit cards!

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Darth Wong wrote:
Oberst Tharnow wrote:Those medical credit cards may actually be usefull for minor medical bills - but not if the shit really hits the fan and you need a surgery for tens or hundreds of thoudsands of dollars. And thats whats most important about insurances: paying the bills you can NOT pay on your own. And those credit cards are not going to do that.
No, but they will ensure that you are heavily indebted to the lenders. What makes you think they give a shit about whether their products actually help you? Their products are intended to help them.
Exactly. These cards exist solely to further indebt their users and generate more fees for the issuers and the healthcare industry. Furthermore, credit cards have by far the highest interest rates of all consumer credit loans which means the financials can make a huge return on the cards which don't default. And I bet they've already drawn up plans for securitizing & packaging their medical credit card loans so they can fob them off on pension plans and other unsuspecting buyers, pocketing yet another fee in the process. And I'm sure Goldman-Sachs & JPM will short their own securitized garbage and make a large profit in the process, knowing that the crap they're selling to pension plans & other holders aren't worth nearly as much as they claim since the underlying medical credit card loans will default at a fairly high rate.

In short: Attention US citizens, please bend over and prepare to be forcibly sodomized. Again.
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Re: Solution to US health care problem: medical credit cards!

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Wait. Wait wait wait. Aren't we already in massive trouble because people are in massive and nigh-unpayable debt? How is making more debt going to help us any? Why would anyone think this is a good idea? [/rhetorical questions] Oh. It's just good business. Well, as long as people are making money who cares about long-term consequences? :banghead:
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Re: Solution to US health care problem: medical credit cards!

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They haven't got a fucking clue, no fucking clue what so ever. It's comparable to the officers of a sinking ocean liner giving concrete lifejackets to the passangers. Let's hope this BS is the last spasms of Turbo Capitalism before it fully dies.
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Re: Solution to US health care problem: medical credit cards!

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There are alternatives to paying medical bills with credit cards said Rukavina. Patients can try to cut deals with their doctor or hospital; medical providers often negotiate bills and payment schedules with consumers in financial trouble.
This is what it sounds like - an attempt by the credit card companies to muscle into an area of business usually dominated by doctor/hospital/etc-and-patient payment schedules (my dentist ,for example, offers a couple of possible payment plans in lieu of dental insurance if you don't have it). As long as it doesn't simply become yet another source of credit to spend in addition to the credit that is almost certainly being expended anyways, the only major problems I see are that the credit card companies will probably be much harsher on those who can't follow up on payments.
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Re: Solution to US health care problem: medical credit cards!

Post by une »

This is exactly why I left the USA as soon as a I graduated. This uber capitilism crap is astoundingly stupid.
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Re: Solution to US health care problem: medical credit cards!

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Some years ago, after being hit with multiple emergencies (both medical and otherwise) in a short period of time my Other Half and I found that we had racked up some credit card charges (mostly hotel bills for unexpected travel), some out of pocket medical costs, and a few other things (emergency vehicle servicing, etc - there was a lot of travel involved). We added up the total, looked at what it would take to pay off a few additional bills related to the mess that were lying around, and took out a loan from my credit union for several thousand dollars at 9%, which is less that the interest we were paying on the cards. We paid off all the credit cards, paid the rest of the bills, finished getting work done on the vehicles, and that is the ONLY way credit should get involved in these things.

With the credit union I was able to set the term of the loan/size of payment, which I purposely set low enough so that if I lost my job I could reasonably still pay it (lucky for me! Guess what happened 18 months later...), my interest rate is fixed and won't suddenly get jacked up, and if I got the funds (somehow) I could pay off the balance with no penalty. Gee, a consolidation loan, what a concept, but without the need for "counseling" or some agency that would want to skim a fee off it.

Aside from emergencies I almost never use a credit card for anything. When I need a loan I negotiate one - for a car, typically, but also for other things - because the interest rates are much lower and they're stable.
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Re: Solution to US health care problem: medical credit cards!

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une wrote:This is exactly why I left the USA as soon as a I graduated. This uber capitilism crap is astoundingly stupid.
It isn't just the USA though, the whole world seems to run of debt and credit. People get into debt buying stuff, multi-national companies run of credit lines rather than what they've actually got (see Automotive industry) so are in debt to the banks, the banks also don't have the money and are in debt to governments who are in debt to other governments. If you trace the debt back does anyone actually have the money or has it just been dreamed up.

I hear that China owns a sizeable portion of the US debt, but where have they gotten the money from? Have they borrowed from someone else?
The entire credit industry is insane.
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Re: Solution to US health care problem: medical credit cards!

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Lost Soal wrote:
une wrote:This is exactly why I left the USA as soon as a I graduated. This uber capitilism crap is astoundingly stupid.
It isn't just the USA though, the whole world seems to run of debt and credit.
But it was America's immense cultural, economic, and political clout that has encouraged the spread of Turbo Capitalism worldwide in the first place.
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Re: Solution to US health care problem: medical credit cards!

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Lost Soal wrote:It isn't just the USA though, the whole world seems to run of debt and credit. People get into debt buying stuff, multi-national companies run of credit lines rather than what they've actually got (see Automotive industry) so are in debt to the banks, the banks also don't have the money and are in debt to governments who are in debt to other governments. If you trace the debt back does anyone actually have the money or has it just been dreamed up.
Well, that's only natural; debt and credit are really the stuff on which economies are built. Debt is the only way to invest, and there is always some degree of risk. The real key here is not eliminating credit entirely, but managing its risk through regulation and taxation and reining in overeager investors.

By the way, you misunderstand how banks work. They borrow from consumers and investors and lend to other consumers and businesses.
I hear that China owns a sizeable portion of the US debt, but where have they gotten the money from? Have they borrowed from someone else?
They get it by making more things things and shipping them to us than we are to them. Any trade deficit is accompanied by a capital flow: if we are importing more goods than we're exporting, we are the object of capital inflow and therefore some other country is holding our debt. One professor I talked to put it like this: it's a giant scam, and we're actually getting the better end of the deal (for now) since they're sending us cheap finished goods and we're sending them IOUs in return.
The entire credit industry is insane.
That's true, but not for the reasons you outlined.
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Re: Solution to US health care problem: medical credit cards!

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Surlethe wrote:Debt is the only way to invest, and there is always some degree of risk.
Untrue. You can sell shares, for which investors get dividends (and a payoff if the company is bought or liquidated). Share floatations account for a small fraction of investment raised compared to bonds and bank borrowing, but it is still an important part of the economy. I suppose it would be theoretically possible to use shares as the primary funding mechanism for companies if explicit dividend levels (tied to profits) and buyback schedules were incorporated into share issues regularly. However that pushes more risk onto investors and would almost certainly be less efficient.
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Re: Solution to US health care problem: medical credit cards!

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Point. From a certain point of view, though, the risk inherent in the purchase of an ownership stake makes it acomparable to a loan; the investor expects the market value of the share or the dividend to increase and commits money based on that expectation, just as a lender might. If the opposite occurs, he's even more out of money than a bondholder since ownership is not actually a form of debt.

Nevertheless, as you point out, most investment is accomplished by borrowing rather than via collective ownership.
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Re: Solution to US health care problem: medical credit cards!

Post by Starglider »

Surlethe wrote:Point. From a certain point of view, though, the risk inherent in the purchase of an ownership stake makes it acomparable to a loan; the investor expects the market value of the share or the dividend to increase and commits money based on that expectation, just as a lender might.
The defining characteristic of a loan is that the borrower expects his money back on some fixed schedule, with legal consequences for non-payment. It may or may not be directly secured on assets to reduce the risk to the borrower, but share issues are inherently less risky for the company, because there are minimal consequences if the expected profits do not materialise (the shareholders may be able to vote out the current board members but they can't normally force a liquidation).
Nevertheless, as you point out, most investment is accomplished by borrowing rather than via collective ownership.
Public share issues seem to have been more popular in the past; the British railway boom and a significant amount of US industrialisation was funded by public share issues raising starting capital. The modern equivalent is venture capital, which is technically still collective ownership in most cases (since most VC funds are open) but filtered through an intermediate holding company (the venture capital company). Modern public issues are usually for expansion funding for already-profitable (or at least trading) companies and/or to provide an exit for the VCs.
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Re: Solution to US health care problem: medical credit cards!

Post by une »

Lost Soal wrote:
une wrote:This is exactly why I left the USA as soon as a I graduated. This uber capitilism crap is astoundingly stupid.
It isn't just the USA though, the whole world seems to run of debt and credit. People get into debt buying stuff, multi-national companies run of credit lines rather than what they've actually got (see Automotive industry) so are in debt to the banks, the banks also don't have the money and are in debt to governments who are in debt to other governments. If you trace the debt back does anyone actually have the money or has it just been dreamed up.

I hear that China owns a sizeable portion of the US debt, but where have they gotten the money from? Have they borrowed from someone else?
The entire credit industry is insane.
Although it is true that the world runs on debt, how many other first world nations are as hell bent on putting their own citizens into heavy debt as the USA is? Most other first world nations use a variety of methods to control health care costs and keep them affordable, but here in the USA when it is shown that the cost of health care is too great a burden for the average citizen to bear the answer isn't to reform the system, but instead to have everyone pay with their credit cards.

I know that the above is a bit of an exaggeration and that the current administration is trying very hard to reform the system, but the fact that these "medical credit cards" are being offered at all is just sickening to me.
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Re: Solution to US health care problem: medical credit cards!

Post by Big Orange »

Milton Friedman has a lot to answer for, even judging from this "shrine" over on DeviantArt. Here are few of Friedman's quotes that millions of Americans have earnestly taken to heart so much as to use credit cards for basic healthcare:
"The greatest advances of civilization, whether in architecture or painting, in science or literature, in industry or agriculture, have never come from centralized government."

"The Great Depression, like most other periods of severe unemployment, was produced by government mismanagement rather than by any inherent instability of the private economy."

"Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself."

"Many people want government to protect the consumer. A much more urgent problem is to protect the consumer from the government."
Milton Friedman got a Nobel Prize for spewing out an endless tirade of strawmen, fallacies, and non squinters?! Really, what Milton Friedman's warped ideology really was is a thinly disguised diatribe against governments being agents of the common good like they should be, instead of being enablers for capitalism for the sake of capitalism above all other considerations, which cannot sustain itself despite intial explosive growth, but with wealth going to the select few. It's akin to leaving a garden to be overgrown, with weeds (toxic debt) spurting out of control, and eventually clogging everything up.

And you need stable, benign governments to act as a solid framework for the growth of trade, business, science, art, etc... :banghead:
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'Secondly, I don't see why "income inequality" is a bad thing. Poverty is not an injustice. There is no such thing as causes for poverty, only causes for wealth. Poverty is not a wrong, but taking money from those who have it to equalize incomes is basically theft, which is wrong.' - Typical Randroid

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Surlethe
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Re: Solution to US health care problem: medical credit cards!

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Big Orange wrote:Milton Friedman got a Nobel Prize for spewing out an endless tirade of strawmen, fallacies, and non squinters?!
You're an idiot. Friedman got a Nobel Prize for being a top-notch economist: like the prizes in other fields and the Fields medal, the Nobel (memorial) Prize in Economics is awarded purely for academic research. Your non-sequitur is about as apt as saying Nash received it for being schizophrenic.
Really, what Milton Friedman's warped ideology really was is a thinly disguised diatribe against governments being agents of the common good like they should be, instead of being enablers for capitalism for the sake of capitalism above all other considerations, which cannot sustain itself despite intial explosive growth, but with wealth going to the select few. It's akin to leaving a garden to be overgrown, with weeds (toxic debt) spurting out of control, and eventually clogging everything up.
Oh, please, have you even read anything Friedman wrote? Are you judging his philosophy on the basis of a few quotes without even reading their contexts? If you are, you're as bad as the fundamentalists who judge George Washington's life philosophy on the basis of a few lines in his farewell address. The only difference is that your ultimate conclusion - Friedman was wrong - is coincidentally correct, but even your penultimate conclusion - Friedman's ideology was a 'thinly disguised diatribe against governments being agents of the common good' - is entirely unsupported and, I dare say, wrong.
And you need stable, benign governments to act as a solid framework for the growth of trade, business, science, art, etc...
And Friedman said as much. See, e.g., Capitalism and Freedom. I'm afraid I don't have the book handy to give an exact quote, but anyone who thinks that Friedman held the same views as, say, Rand is sadly ignorant.



You know what? Let's even take a look at the quotes against which you're kneejerking.
The greatest advances of civilization, whether in architecture or painting, in science or literature, in industry or agriculture, have never come from centralized government.
When I read this in Capitalism and Freedom, I immediately knew it was wrong: c.f., World War II, the space program, universal health care.
The Great Depression, like most other periods of severe unemployment, was produced by government mismanagement rather than by any inherent instability of the private economy.
Mostly true, at least as regards the Great Depression: government mismanagement lengthened and broadened a sharp downturn. The Fed fucked up big time between 1930 and 1933. (In fact, we've learned some lessons about managing a major banking crisis since then: if in 2007-09 there were no FDIC and the Fed had followed the same policies they did in the 1930s - i.e., "LALALALALA WE CAN'T HEAR YOU" - we'd be in deep shit today.)
"Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself."
Do you honestly disagree with this? That's actually a pretty succinct expression of the prevailing progressive view: people's options need to be constrained so that they (a) don't hurt each other and (b) don't hurt themselves. What do you think regulations are, suggestions?
"Many people want government to protect the consumer. A much more urgent problem is to protect the consumer from the government."
Taken without context, this quote is essentially meaningless; it was almost certainly put up on that wallpaper because it has a nice anti-progressive sound to it.
A Government founded upon justice, and recognizing the equal rights of all men; claiming higher authority for existence, or sanction for its laws, that nature, reason, and the regularly ascertained will of the people; steadily refusing to put its sword and purse in the service of any religious creed or family is a standing offense to most of the Governments of the world, and to some narrow and bigoted people among ourselves.
F. Douglass
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