Black children banned from Philadelphia swimming pool

[neoolong]

It could depend on the point of contact between the camp and the club. If the person was white for instance, the person at the club may not have thought that it was going to be a bunch of black kids. Or the person in charge of new memberships may not have been particularly troubled by race, and so signed them up, since technically it's supposed to be an "open" club.

[CmdrWilkens]

I would be curious to see if the club bothered to find out in advance how many kids were coming. Sixty five kids is a GIANT surge in pool population.

They charged $1900. They must have been expecting a pretty large number of kids. I actually think it's pretty much inconceivablethat they wouldn't have quoted the rate based on the number of kids.

From a health and safety standpoint they would have to. I don't know the specifics of PA law but I do know that in Maryland when I worked at a camp that had a pool there are all SORTs of regulations that require you to know not only how many kids are in the pool but how long, how often, total attendance. All of these things are regulated to ensure the pool stays santiary and I would find it hard to believe that PA would be lax enough not to have regulations requiring pool owners (aside from homeowners) to know these sorts of details. The club woudl certainly have found out how many kids because not to know would potentially expose it to negligence suits for providing improper levels of sanitation and/or supervision.

[Ziggy Stardust]

I grew up in the area, thank you, so I know their relative geographic locations. Culturally, economically, and demographically the areas are quite different, so calling Huntingdon Valley "Philadelphia" is extremely misleading.

Oh, stuff it. Huntingdon Valley is considered to be part of the Greater Philadelphia area. This is like getting mad when someone uses "Los Angeles" when generically referring to say, Anaheim.

[Themightytom]

They charged $1900. They must have been expecting a pretty large number of kids. I actually think it's pretty much inconceivablethat they wouldn't have quoted the rate based on the number of kids.

From a health and safety standpoint they would have to. I don't know the specifics of PA law but I do know that in Maryland when I worked at a camp that had a pool there are all SORTs of regulations that require you to know not only how many kids are in the pool but how long, how often, total attendance. All of these things are regulated to ensure the pool stays santiary and I would find it hard to believe that PA would be lax enough not to have regulations requiring pool owners (aside from homeowners) to know these sorts of details. The club woudl certainly have found out how many kids because not to know would potentially expose it to negligence suits for providing improper levels of sanitation and/or supervision.

$1900 isn't a rediculous number to charge agency to agency for a service, especially if we're talking about ongoing private pool access for a summer. You would HOPE they would check their numbers, but then again this is a club that let their president make a public statement that they didn't want to alter the complexion of their club? The word choice alone suggests incompetence. It seems entirely plausible to me that this was an experiment gone wrong on the country clubs part and they had no diea what they were doing. I was at a golf tournament last month for the NP I work at and there was a lot of talk about membership being down at private country clubs to the extent that seasons and hours were being shortened. This could ahve been a last minute decision to bring in extra cash that waill concieved.

I agree CMDR Wilkens that they "Should" know, and that there "Are" laws, simply from the standpoint of maintaining a safe ratio between lifeguards and swimmers, but I seriously doubt a country club would think to consult its rent-a-teen lifeguards and even if they did the daycare could avhe pulled the old "We won't let them all in at once and we are bringing our won adults" line because thats pretty much how the Boys And Girls club pulled off the invasion of a public pool that I was at. parks and recreation DID ask them but they BS'ed their way through it because they had a ton of kids, bus rental isn't cheap and they figured they could handle it.

Seriously Wilkens, can you imagine bringing that many kids to a POOL? I mean a beach maybe, but a POOL??

[CaptainChewbacca]

Seriously Wilkens, can you imagine bringing that many kids to a POOL? I mean a beach maybe, but a POOL??

The public pool 3 blocks from where I grew up probably had close to 200 kids in it every afternoon in the summer. Some swim complexes actually have multiple pools, and they're all hopping. This isn't someone's backyard getaway, its probably closer to an olympic-sized water hole.

[Themightytom]

Maybe I'm not thinking on a large enough scale, a neighborhing city has a GIANT pool with little pyramids you can climb and a sizeable area for wading, another for diving and the intermediate area.

My city has your classic sixty by forty/ No deeper than 4'9 pool, of which I observed several in Camden NJ, which is near Philidelphia. I suppose a larger pool could take a 65 student field trip in the minds off the day care providers.

[Sea Skimmer]

This isn't some big swim complex, the place was dumb for ever agreeing to that many kids of any sort.
Look for oneselves at 40° 7'10.78"N 75° 2'24.00"W

[Surlethe]

That's certainly possible, however in most of those places ethnic minorities are accepted (in small numbers) as long as the meet the required socio-economic and cultural standards (i.e., they need to be middle class or rich AND not act like a bunch of hoodrats).

My sense, is that, more generally, if you're black or hispanic you're assumed lower-class until "proven innocent". Once you're seen to meet the socioeconomic standards, you're accepted.

I'm still confused how exactly the daycampers were allowed in in the first place. Did they assume these were a bunch of wealthy white kids or something, or did whoever approved it simply not expect the members' reactions?

My guess is that it's a bit of both. If you live in a sheltered, lily-white upper-middle-class environment, might you probably end up assuming that people you deal with are on the whole white? They may also not have expected the members' reactions.

[Garibaldi]

Oh, stuff it. Huntingdon Valley is considered to be part of the Greater Philadelphia area. This is like getting mad when someone uses "Los Angeles" when generically referring to say, Anaheim.

When discussing an issue involving allegations of bigotry and classism it makes a significant difference. If you can't see why it's misleading to identify an largely white rich suburban town as "Philadelphia" when the issue is at hand is a club in said town expelling a bunch of black city kids, then you are either willfully ignorant or incredibly stupid. This isn't like someone roughly identifying their hometown to a stranger. If there was a news story about Anaheim kicking out a bunch of people from South Central, then the specifics of geography would matter a great deal. So you stuff it.

[That NOS Guy]

I grew up in the area, thank you, so I know their relative geographic locations. Culturally, economically, and demographically the areas are quite different, so calling Huntingdon Valley "Philadelphia" is extremely misleading.

If you had done any research you'd see that "Valley Swim Club" is 22 Tomlinson Rd, Huntingdon Valley, PA. Oh hey, look at google maps. Look at it's position vis-a-vis County Line road, y'know the border of Philadelphia county. You'll see it's inside the border of Philadelphia thus qualifying as "NE Philadelphia".

As for the topic at hand, I really can't say I'm suprised about all this.

[Garibaldi]

If you had done any research you'd see that "Valley Swim Club" is 22 Tomlinson Rd, Huntingdon Valley, PA. Oh hey, look at google maps. Look at it's position vis-a-vis County Line road, y'know the border of Philadelphia county. You'll see it's inside the border of Philadelphia thus qualifying as "NE Philadelphia".

Shut the fuck up, you don't know what the fuck you're on about. The Valley Swim Club is in Huntingdon Valley. Huntington Valley is not in Philadelphia County. It's in Montgomery County. Demographically, economically, culturally, it is not Philadelphia. Next to =! is. The differences between actual Philadelphia and the Montco suburbs are very possibly the fundamental underlying cause of this story.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Looking at google maps, the pool in question is an 'L' that's got racing lanes in the 30x70 long leg and a 50x50 square shallow-end. That's not a very big pool, and if the word wasn't communicated from one part of the club staff to the other, it would be suddenly VERY loud and VERY crowded in that pool.

Not excusing anything, just painting a picture.

[CmdrWilkens]

This isn't some big swim complex, the place was dumb for ever agreeing to that many kids of any sort.
Look for oneselves at 40° 7'10.78"N 75° 2'24.00"W

Based on the zoom level its at least 25% larger in both wdith and breadth (don't know about depth) than the pool at the summer camp I used to work at and we rated 50 kids without a sweat in terms of numbers int he pool, now the number of adult supervisors was always a bit harder but size wise we were fine and this pool should easily accomodate that many kids. Jeez it has at least 6 full length lanes in addition to the wading portion. The community pools in Columbia where I grew up are close to the same size based on number of lanes and additional wading space and those support 100+ patrons at a time easily.

[That NOS Guy]

Shut the fuck up, you don't know what the fuck you're on about. The Valley Swim Club is in Huntingdon Valley. Huntington Valley is not in Philadelphia County. It's in Montgomery County. Demographically, economically, culturally, it is not Philadelphia. Next to =! is. The differences between actual Philadelphia and the Montco suburbs are very possibly the fundamental underlying cause of this story.

Have you taken a look at the map, seriously?

Christ, I live 5 minutes away you hatfucker. I like how you've conviently managed to subdivide different areas of the same unit into what "is" and "is not" Philadelphia. What precisely is Philadelphia? Oh wait, it's an ethnically varied and complex city. Jesus Christ, the regions get very different as one goes along. The NE is different then the West, the South is different from the North and so on and so forth. It's a complete and utter fallacy to try and draw an arbitrary line as to what "is" and "isn't" Philadelphia.

Society Hill shares a shitload in common with the assholes in Montco, does that make them not Philadelphian? Of course it doesn't, but you conviently ignore that in your idiotic quest to declare that something which resides openly in the NE sector of the city as somehow not part of the greater whole. The attitudes of a partiuclar section of the city are what's in play, just accept that and quit this nonsense.

[FireNexus]

Of course it doesn't, but you conviently ignore that in your idiotic quest to declare that something which resides openly in the NE sector of the city as somehow not part of the greater whole. The attitudes of a partiuclar section of the city are what's in play, just accept that and quit this nonsense.

Technically speaking that swim club is not in the city. It's on the right side of County Line Rd., but it's just a hair west of the city proper. County Line Rd also divides Bucks and Montgomery counties, remember.

In any case, this club is so fucking close to the city as to not matter for the purposes of using it in the subject. The point of defining it as a Philadelphia club was not to define Philadelphia's race relations. The point was to identify approximately where it is to people not from the area.

Garibaldi, if it was less than a mile away there would be no argument. Even as it stands, there should be no argument. It is not an important distinction, so get over it.

[Darth Wong]

Garibaldi apparently does not understand why "nitpick" is not considered a compliment.

In any case, regarding the pool and the overcrowding issue, it might be nice to try a few numbers. A typical municipal pool around here is 25 metres long with 6 lanes (Olympic pools are twice as long). If we assume a 2:1 length to width ratio (which looks about right to me), that's 25x12.5 metres, or 312.5 m². If you put 65 kids in a pool like that, each kid gets nearly 5 square metres on average.

That's not exactly sparse, but it's well within the range of what one might normally expect for recreational swimming. My local pool has 70 lockers, and it's understood that families will often use one locker for several people.