Anti-Alien Racism in the Rebel Alliance?

[18-Till-I-Die]

Because you're doing this so they can interact with a galaxy standardized for humans. Don't pretend that's not what will happen, humans are, in canon, the norm. So everyone has to pick up the slack. It's the same reason why there are institutions to prevent Whites from using sheer numbers to dominate minorities in America: Whites are the norm, they're more numerous so they set the standards, so someone has to make sure the standards are at the very least fair or ideally impartial to race. And that is JUST skin color.

You're suggesting a race should be forced to alter their entire genetic structure, even how they see and experience the world, to fit into a world that is standardized for the norm: humans. If a race that doesn't see in the visible spectrum wants to be "equal" they have to then have some kind of crackpot surgery to achieve this. That's as illogical as saying that I should have an operation (hypthetical) that makes me White so I can be on an even basis with the hundreds of millions of Whites who effectively rule Western Civilization, instead of a "disadvantaged" Black guy. It's actually MORE racist to demand they change than to accept them as being different and just leave them to their own devices.

I mean Galactic Civilization, in Lensmen, did it and they were fine. They treated the giant 100-eyed dragons (no joke) like giant 100-eyed dragons, and the giant norse-like high gravity people like high gravity people, and the people in sealed cryonic suits from ice planets were treated like people in sealed cryonic suits etc etc. The people all had wildly different needs and mentalities (the ice people were scheming cowards to a man, for example, just the way their brains worked). And everyone was perfectly fine with it. So what, the Republic is too good for that?

[Eleas]

Yep. Come on, people, this is just stupid. Human senses, unaided, are all but worthless in space. Sensors, data interpretation, and computerized aids are mandatory, regardless of species; whatever you are, you're still going to be operating your ship by way of an interface. To assume that the only viable control interface would be one suitable for humans is idiotic. If that were the case, we could expect certain species such as umbarans or defels to attempt to ban humanity from the spaceways, due to their inability to see all the shades of the ultraviolet spectrum and thus being likely to miss vital warning signs. Hell, what about the Gran, said to be able to distinguish far more colours than the galactic norm?

In reality, of course, information would simply be presented in a way to which the pilot would be able to react, and that would be the end of it. And there's precedent to that already in the EU as well as the films (look at Kamino, where the white walls have been stated to be covered with ultraviolet signs and decorations; essentially that's an interface humans cannot operate).

[Samuel]

Because you're doing this so they can interact with a galaxy standardized for humans. Don't pretend that's not what will happen, humans are, in canon, the norm. So everyone has to pick up the slack. It's the same reason why there are institutions to prevent Whites from using sheer numbers to dominate minorities in America: Whites are the norm, they're more numerous so they set the standards, so someone has to make sure the standards are at the very least fair or ideally impartial to race. And that is JUST skin color.

There is a difference between discrimination based on pigmentation and not being able to be on the same planet because your body will crunch.

You're suggesting a race should be forced to alter their entire genetic structure, even how they see and experience the world, to fit into a world that is standardized for the norm: humans.

Humanity did not make it so that the majority of habitable planets are near 1 g.

If a race that doesn't see in the visible spectrum wants to be "equal" they have to then have some kind of crackpot surgery to achieve this.

And this is bad... how?

It's actually MORE racist to demand they change than to accept them as being different and just leave them to their own devices.

I don't think rampant stupidity counts as a good form of uniqueness.

the ice people were scheming cowards to a man, for example, just the way their brains worked

You mean like how black people are all lazy?

So what, the Republic is too good for that?

Nope- the Republic used that system. It turns out however that having aliens not interact with everyone else makes it really easy to demonize them and than exterminate. Opps.

If that were the case, we could expect certain species such as umbarans or defels to attempt to ban humanity from the spaceways,

Humanity is the majority species in the galaxy- they get to make the rules.

[Eleas]

Humanity is the majority species in the galaxy- they get to make the rules.

When we see evidence for actual rules enforcing such standardization, as compared to the evidence we already have to the contrary (such as Mon Calamari using their own control interfaces, and the fact that the Duros have always been a prolific and widely space-faring species who would be unlikely to bow down to such useless exclusion), I'll grant you the point.

[Samuel]

Humanity is the majority species in the galaxy- they get to make the rules.

When we see evidence for actual rules enforcing such standardization, as compared to the evidence we already have to the contrary (such as Mon Calamari using their own control interfaces, and the fact that the Duros have always been a prolific and widely space-faring species who would be unlikely to bow down to such useless exclusion), I'll grant you the point.

I was responding to "other species ill ban humans from space flight because of shitty reflexes".

[Junghalli]

That is not what you said. Your specific example stated you would convert green to white. That solves nothing, because now you need something to distiguish fake white from actual white. Thats what I was getting at.

So, assuming that real white isn't used in the signalling codes, simply convert real white into some other random color that's not used in the signalling codes. If it is used in the signalling codes, convert it to something that is not, and then convert that something else in turn to some other random color that is also not used. It's not like these signalling codes are going to use every color of the spectrum: as long as the person can be made to distinguish a handful of different colors the colorblindness ceases to be an obstacle to job performance.

[18-Till-I-Die]

First off, the ice-people from Lensmen were the way they are because of evolution. On their world, only the ones who were scheming cowards survived so it simply became their natural reaction to everything, like our fight or flight mechanism. They had a "Machievelli or David Xanatos" mechanism. Secondly it was actually quite useful since they knew how to screw people over on an innate, instinctual level as it was their primary defense mechanism: one of them wiped out a whole planet of bad guys, all on his own, by just making everyone go all paranoid on each other by spreading rumors, lies and propaganda in secret. All on his own. Ever seen the kind of bullshit quintuple crosses in Pirates of the Caribean 3...it was like that, now imagine a whole planet of people doing that. TO DEATH. Cause of one guy.

That's hardly some racist point of view, that's "Have everyone do what you do best and ask no more of them". So why not do that.

As for rampant stupidity, it's not the pig guys or the Marauders' fault they're less mentally developed, and since both are spacefaring cultures they're obviously not "stupid" just less intelligent than humans. Frankly the pig guys didn't seem too stupid to me, so maybe humans in the future have some absurdly high IQ or something and the pig guys only top out at 100, but either way, they have spaceships, they have a spacefaring society, so do the Marauders even though they live off salvage. Assuming they're stupid because they're less developed is the kind of thing I'm talking about, using human standards as a high water mark. Why not use Wookies as the standard? Make everything for giant hairy people strong as bears...or would it be not fair, and force humans into situations where they're discriminated against. OOPS! RACISM!

Plus "And this is bad...how?" It's bad because they don't fucking NEED IT. They'd be extinct if they couldn't see at all, they obviously would use echolocation or infrared or UV. Why should that change because of some standard? You're litterally saying it's perfectly logical to make an entire RACE of people change physically to match some norm that is arbitrarily established based on the sole fact that humans fuck like rabbits so they have more planets.

[Eleas]

I was responding to "other species ill ban humans from space flight because of shitty reflexes".

Ah, gotcha. Next time, I might want to quote who I'm replying to.

[Samuel]

On their world, only the ones who were scheming cowards survived so it simply became their natural reaction to everything, like our fight or flight mechanism.

Actually, that is one of the theories about why people developed intelligence. Is there a reason they would be more scheming or that group evolution would not affect them?

They had a "Machievelli or David Xanatos" mechanism.

Do you really want me to explain why that is retarded?

Secondly it was actually quite useful since they knew how to screw people over on an innate, instinctual level as it was their primary defense mechanism: one of them wiped out a whole planet of bad guys, all on his own, by just making everyone go all paranoid on each other by spreading rumors, lies and propaganda in secret.

Why should they believe him?

That's hardly some racist point of view, that's "Have everyone do what you do best and ask no more of them". So why not do that.

Having a giant alien that needs special accomedations is not racist. Having aliens that are smarter, dumber, quicker or crazier is not racist. Having them all have the same personality and skills is (unless you have genetic engineering in which case bets are off).

since both are spacefaring cultures they're obviously not "stupid" just less intelligent than humans.

The guards show no sign of being spacefaring and the scavangers... what is the word scavange the technology they are using.

so maybe humans in the future have some absurdly high IQ or something and the pig guys only top out at 100,

There is no reason to believe humans in Star Wars are super intelligent.

Assuming they're stupid because they're less developed is the kind of thing I'm talking about, using human standards as a high water mark.

If you have an IQ below less than 75 you are counted as retarded. So just sliding them down the scale a bit more and they get a significantly larger percentage of idiots.

Make everything for giant hairy people strong as bears...or would it be not fair, and force humans into situations where they're discriminated against.

They probably can. As it is, the current situation is that Wookies are so strong that if they get into a fight it is probably considered assult with a deadly weapon.

It's bad because they don't fucking NEED IT.

I don't need to ever leave my home city. They don't need to leave their home planet. Just because they don't need it doesn't mean they shouldn't do it.

You're litterally saying it's perfectly logical to make an entire RACE of people change physically to match some norm that is arbitrarily established based on the sole fact that humans fuck like rabbits so they have more planets.

Only the ones that want to leave their planet and interact with the rest of the galaxy. Keeps costs down.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Actually, that is one of the theories about why people developed intelligence. Is there a reason they would be more scheming or that group evolution would not affect them?

Didn't say. It was just a natural instinct for them. It was like a gag reflex from their point of view, you walk in the room and they instantly try to size you up, list your weaknesses, and devise ways to use them against you. Seriously this guy kept a little To Do list of people to assassinate...little cards, it was cute almost like Pokemon with assassinations and brutal poisonings.

I imagine it's more to do with hunting than anything, maybe it made it easier for them to kill whatever prey they needed to hunt, but that's just the trait that became dominant.

Do you really want me to explain why that is retarded?

Actually yeah I'm not sure what you mean. They're not all sociopaths or something, if that's what you think I meant.

Why should they believe him?

Because his race isn't known for outright lying. They were just known for...coming up with cunning plans and elaborate plots to fuck you up, and being rather cowardly. The first aspect makes them good commanders which is what he posed as. Also these guys he screwed over were all criminals, sociopaths and drug dealers, they probably wondered why he trusted them.

Having a giant alien that needs special accomedations is not racist. Having aliens that are smarter, dumber, quicker or crazier is not racist. Having them all have the same personality and skills is (unless you have genetic engineering in which case bets are off).

Not the same skills, just the same instincts. Granted they didn't have the same personality, for example the one who was a Lensman, by the very definition of what a Lensman is, was extremely brave and trustworthy...to his allies. He, as I said, got everyone on a planet to kill each other without batting an eye...or whatever they have for eyes. I think they had more than one though.

The guards show no sign of being spacefaring and the scavangers... what is the word scavange the technology they are using.

The pig guys show up on various planets in the EU, and on Tatooine if memory serves. They're fairly common in the galaxy. So either everyone just takes one home as a pet or they're a spacefaring people. And the fact the scavengers can USE that technology means that, stupid or not, they are capable of dealing with it.

There is no reason to believe humans in Star Wars are super intelligent.

Just a brain fart.

If you have an IQ below less than 75 you are counted as retarded. So just sliding them down the scale a bit more and they get a significantly larger percentage of idiots.

We don't know what they're IQs are. But unless they can teleport the fact they pop up on various planets means they're spacefaring.

They probably can. As it is, the current situation is that Wookies are so strong that if they get into a fight it is probably considered assult with a deadly weapon.

Not my point. My point is, why are we making everything for human standards. Why not Rodian standards, or Wookie standards. Because humans are the norm, so you're suggesting we force everyone to be this arbitrary norm.

I don't need to ever leave my home city. They don't need to leave their home planet. Just because they don't need it doesn't mean they shouldn't do it.

Only the ones that want to leave their planet and interact with the rest of the galaxy. Keeps costs down.

I'm sorry but that's just ridiculous. So your argument is "Be like us, or be persona non grata". Basically that's it, and that's actually WAY MORE racist than just letting them live in their own realm somewhere that they can easily function.

[Junghalli]

The pig guys show up on various planets in the EU, and on Tatooine if memory serves. They're fairly common in the galaxy. So either everyone just takes one home as a pet or they're a spacefaring people.

Wasn't Jabba using them for muscle? Maybe that's how they get around: people like Jabba use them as bodyguards/thugs.

Also, just skimming over the Wookiepedia article, they're described as having a relatively rich and complicated culture, so I'm thinking maybe the "they're dumb" thing might just be prejudice.

[Mr Bean]

The pig guys Gammorians? Think that the way is spelled. I've not checked the nets but I think they were a shall we say uplifted race? IE Duros, Humans, Hutts or someone comes along see strong manual labor with nice herd instincts which are intelligent, not brilliant but intelligent. Enough to be useful as manual labor. A Servant race you might say. Heck you could run across a dozen species another species might chose to add to their society in a symbiotic way. The Gammorians get good medical care, all the food they want, I assume mating opportunities and work. The Duros or whoever get nice strong servants. Not quite slavery but defiantly exploitative. You use the dumber ones for more brute work (Ugh this is Steve, Steve meet Ugh. Ugh when Steve tells you smash, you smash, and never smash Steve ok? You and the rest of your pack do this, we look after your young, and feed you good)

[Pelranius]

There was an instance of the Gammoreans operating a space craft in the Twilight Planet, where an Gammorean female and her several husbands were salvaging a blown up NR warship and picked up R2-D2 and C-3P0, and then the whole lot was captured by another NRDF ship whose captain was in Loronar's pay.

[consequences]

It's interesting to me that no one seems to have brought up possibly the most damning incident of anti-alien racism on the part of the good guys. In Solo Command, Zsinj manages to get the NR to relieve their Twileks of active duty en-masse, by brainwashing a few into going on killing sprees, with the Gotals next on the list. However there had been multiple Lusankya victimis human brainwash victims in the past, and the only overt precaution taken was against the one guy who could remember having been there.

[Samuel]

The absolutely-non-human poison-breathing multi-dimensional aliens in question literally do not have an emotional/mental capacity to be 'brave' (which is to say, to stand against fear)

? If an alien has evolved in a social group than it will have the capacity for bravery.

Also, just skimming over the Wookiepedia article, they're described as having a relatively rich and complicated culture, so I'm thinking maybe the "they're dumb" thing might just be prejudice.

When the first offworld traders landed on Gamorr, five Gamorrean clans fought for the right to approach the vessel. When one clan won the right to approach after two days of battle the victorious Gamorreans walked up to the trading vessel and smashed it into pieces. Six further trading expeditions suffered the same fate before a heavily armed vessel was sent with a new aim, to take the Gamorreans as slaves. After this initial contact, the galaxy found more productive uses for the Gamorreans.

As a result of their physical characteristics and low intelligence, Gamorreans away from their home planet or colony were usually employed as mercenary fighters, guards, bounty hunters or heavy laborers. Gamorreans would generally work for anyone if the price was right and the nature of the work was to their liking. They would even accept slavery if the terms were right. A draw-back for some employers in hiring Gamorreans was their contractual requirements. They generally did not consider a contract binding if it was not sealed in blood by way of combat. Since traditionally a Gamorrean warlord would force a recruit to fight to prove his ability, they expected a prospective employer to do the same.

It is hard to tell how much is cultural and how much is stupidity.

It was just a natural instinct for them. It was like a gag reflex from their point of view, you walk in the room and they instantly try to size you up, list your weaknesses, and devise ways to use them against you. Seriously this guy kept a little To Do list of people to assassinate...little cards, it was cute almost like Pokemon with assassinations and brutal poisonings.

I imagine it's more to do with hunting than anything, maybe it made it easier for them to kill whatever prey they needed to hunt, but that's just the trait that became dominant.

Why is this species not extinct yet?

Actually yeah I'm not sure what you mean. They're not all sociopaths or something, if that's what you think I meant.

Because the majority of evolution for humans- and presumably for non-human aliens- is going to be hunter gather tribes. There is no reason for that to be selected in situations with such a low population.

Because his race isn't known for outright lying. They were just known for...coming up with cunning plans and elaborate plots to fuck you up, and being rather cowardly. The first aspect makes them good commanders which is what he posed as. Also these guys he screwed over were all criminals, sociopaths and drug dealers, they probably wondered why he trusted them.

Ah, he was dealing with idiots That part does make sense.

So either everyone just takes one home as a pet or they're a spacefaring people.

You mean like Twileks?

And the fact the scavengers can USE that technology means that, stupid or not, they are capable of dealing with it.

Conceded. In hindsight scavanging Star Wars tech is going to be hard- for starters, they probably need to make their own fuel.

Just a brain fart.

It isn't too stupid. After all, I imagine that if you have the wealth level you do in Wars, everyone would get plastic surgery if there was no cultural restrictions.

I can only guess that people are opposed to a genetically engineered arms race because than the poor would be screwed over... although given the extreme corporitism it doesn't fit well.

We don't know what they're IQs are. But unless they can teleport the fact they pop up on various planets means they're spacefaring.

Slavery is for status given they have droids to provide ree labor. It isn't to unimaginable that they were a fad in the market.

Because humans are the norm, so you're suggesting we force everyone to be this arbitrary norm.

Yep- it is simplest to alter things to the majority.

So your argument is "Be like us, or be persona non grata". Basically that's it, and that's actually WAY MORE racist than just letting them live in their own realm somewhere that they can easily function.

No, that is the situation in the galaxy during the republic. Why do you think it was so easy for the Empire to start knocking of races? Why do you think that so many specie are noted for certain traits? They most obvious answer is they are not integrating into galactic society and so they maintain their distinctiveness. Unfortunately this made them really easy to start genociding-not the least because they are all in a small number of places.

[Patroklos]

So how is it racist to genetically engineer an entrie species so that their bones won't crumble and kill them when subjected to more than x g's? Or make a profoundly retarded species less retarded?

It is making them better and able to interact with the rest of the galaxy.

The same way it is racist to de-Jewify people to better fit into cultural norms.

[Samuel]

Culture=/physical handicaps. On that note though, there are cultural shifts that have occured- alot of Jews have adapted to the culture they live in. Just like everyone else actually.

[Darth Hoth]

On the actual topic, I think that most everything has already been said. The Star Wars galaxy is unrealistic in that the vast majority of its aliens conform so closely to human mores, prompting the conclusion that they are either human-derived sub-species or otherwise somehow altered. Under such conditions, imposing discriminatory legislation would be somewhat close to "racism" (as the aliens are, essentially, races of humans). On the other hand, demanding of genuinely alien aliens that they should subscribe to human mores is worse still, for the obvious reasons. I would agree with Necron that Civilisation in Lensman handle that one very well, for space opera.

One question:

Who's to say that the Tattooine pod races really proved human reflexive inferiority compared to aliens?

The ICS and, IIRC, the novelization explicitly mention this. Driving a pod requires either more eyes and limbs than you find on a human, or superhuman reflexes.

As I recalled it, the limit was the size/mass of the drivers; Anakin was going to have to quit soon because he was growing too big for the pod.

[Mr Bean]

.

As I recalled it, the limit was the size/mass of the drivers; Anakin was going to have to quit soon because he was growing too big for the pod.

Why don't they just make bigger pods?

Why don't they use former NBA stars as Horse Jockeys? The bigger the pilot the more weight on the pod. Consider the pods where just a bare minimum cockpit attached to two massive engines and it makes fine sense. The bigger the pilot the more the weight.

As well ask why most Formula 1 drivers are kept on strict diets during race season, after all they could make bigger cars can't they?

[NecronLord]

The majority of the discussion of the Lensmanverse aliens has been moved to this topic as what started out as an analogy for SW ended up talking about the aliens themselves.