Torchwood: Children of Earth

[Bounty]

It's pretty good watching indeed. I really like how they're willing to devote half an episode and a whole lot of good actors to a very thorny discussion, and it's damn well written. Very uncomfortable to watch - but then that's the point.

[NecronLord]

Indeed.

Something that bothers me; there's been very little indication that the 456 can do much. As the Doctor mentioned in the whole 'Sycorax' incident, at least one method of mass people control was basically hypnotism. For all we know, it's a very small number with a few virus tricks.

That said, assuming they're on the level, it's hard to know how this'll be resolved. I predict it will involve the 456's symbiosis(?) with the children somehow, we don't know what that's for or why, yet.

Though if we have to have a Deus Ex Machina, what I'd really love to see would be Jack's lot calling (by whatever means) the Shadow Proclamation. Followed by an epilogue of Judoon stomping on the 456's homeworld, and/or blowing it up. Creepy bastards need to die, and I've been wanting to see some payoff on their introduction in Season 4 of Who (one of many disappointments in that finale, they didn't do anything other than serve as an expositionary tool).


One slight plot hole in tonight's: how did they get the bodies out so quickly? I wouldn't go in there after that 'virus' had been released. I would also have evacuated Thames House - seriously, big pillar of fire. What more excuse would they need?

[Bedlam]

Yes, I agree it could all be a bluff on the 456's part although its a very dangerous bluff to call. At present the human race has nothing to fight against no invasion force, no space ships nothing apart from (presumably) one ambasidor. If they can set off their extra quick killy virus anywhere then were all dead very quickly

The only end I can see without a major change to the world (which I wouldn't entirely discount but isn't likely unless this is no longer a shared world with Dr Who) would be either the 456 bluffing and folding when pushed or (and I'm not keen on this) some sort of time travel cop out where the 1965 event is stopped, the 456 did seem very instant because we gave in last time we would give in this time. Only other endings I can see are complete deus ex machina coming from no where.

[NecronLord]

A time travel copout would be a Deus Ex Machina. The 456 bluffing would be out of left field, too.

I think, if there's a resolution that isn't, it has to do with the unexplained aspects of what the 456 are.

However, I don't actually mind the notion of a DEM here - the 456's defeat isn't the important bit of this story, for my money. The important bit is watching the lengths the government will go to over this.

[Big Orange]

One slight plot hole in tonight's: how did they get the bodies out so quickly? I wouldn't go in there after that 'virus' had been released. I would also have evacuated Thames House - seriously, big pillar of fire. What more excuse would they need?

I thought the dozens of people that got gassed by the 456 alien were almost entire the civil serivice team assigned to monitor and communicate with it, rather than regular mugs not part of the operation. And maybe the 456 creature was considerate enough to send the all clear and unlocked the doors, , although the clean up crew must've worn hazard suits anyway.

I personally think the 456 alien is bluffing as well and could even be one of a kind, hiding behind impressive technology and high cunning, scaring the Earth governments into turning on their own people in order to feed it and make it more powerful (its some kind of Borg/Tyranid creature). Its telepathic powers can only affect kids around the age of 10 to 12, with a telepathic bond that lasts a lifetime if a child comes into close contact.

[Hillary]

Its telepathic powers can only affect kids around the age of 10 to 12, with a telepathic bond that lasts a lifetime if a child comes into close contact.

We don't know that at all. It has chosen to use the children - there's nothing to say that they couldn't control adults in the same way should they choose.

There is also nothing to say that a telepathic link is there for life, unless the 456 requires it. It obviously did for this case, but it doesn't necessarily follow that anyone else would also keep that link.

[NecronLord]

We don't know that at all. It has chosen to use the children - there's nothing to say that they couldn't control adults in the same way should they choose.

There is also nothing to say that a telepathic link is there for life, unless the 456 requires it. It obviously did for this case, but it doesn't necessarily follow that anyone else would also keep that link.

And that's the rub. We don't know what it is. For all we know, it's a less flashy version of Blood Control device used by the Sycorax, somehow targeted on growth hormone concentration or something like that. It's quite possible that the effect is scary but fundamentally impotent. It's also possible that they possess the power to kill the children as easily as they killed Clem. We really can't say.

What we can reasonably say is that these 456 don't have high end teleporters or the time to use them, or they'd just freeze the kids and snag them directly from school yards rather than dicking about. They may have to come down here to collect.

Interesting thought, actually. There may yet be a role for armed force in this.

[Crossroads Inc.]

I am SLIGHTLY worried abit from the previews for the final episode, mostly that they may go a bit over the top on being all dram and emo and end f the world business... The preview clip showing a weeping gwen talking to a camera about "This is a recording of how the world ended" made me roll my eyes quite a bit.

So far the Only thing we know for sure about the 456 is that it seems to be able to synthesis toxins or viruses from thin air and failry rapidly. the fact that its sealed in a box would make one think it did it telepatheticlly or something... This fits with its whole "protection racket" its got going on, give me kids or I create a virus and kill you all off.

I am going to go out on a limb and say if they killed CLem that easily, they can probably kill, or at least inflect pain, on any child, but again thats not know for certain.

Also as mentioned the fact that the 456 hasnt already snagged the kids means they HAVE to relay upon Earth forces to round the kids up.

[NecronLord]

I am SLIGHTLY worried abit from the previews for the final episode, mostly that they may go a bit over the top on being all dram and emo and end f the world business... The preview clip showing a weeping gwen talking to a camera about "This is a recording of how the world ended" made me roll my eyes quite a bit.

So far the Only thing we know for sure about the 456 is that it seems to be able to synthesis toxins or viruses from thin air and failry rapidly. the fact that its sealed in a box would make one think it did it telepatheticlly or something... This fits with its whole "protection racket" its got going on, give me kids or I create a virus and kill you all off.

I just assumed they transmatted distribution cannisters into the ventilation system during the whole pillar of fire incident, and used some kind of hacking technology to activate the lockdown.

[Darth Mall]

I am SLIGHTLY worried abit from the previews for the final episode, mostly that they may go a bit over the top on being all dram and emo and end f the world business... The preview clip showing a weeping gwen talking to a camera about "This is a recording of how the world ended" made me roll my eyes quite a bit.

So far the Only thing we know for sure about the 456 is that it seems to be able to synthesis toxins or viruses from thin air and failry rapidly. the fact that its sealed in a box would make one think it did it telepatheticlly or something... This fits with its whole "protection racket" its got going on, give me kids or I create a virus and kill you all off.

I just assumed they transmatted distribution cannisters into the ventilation system during the whole pillar of fire incident, and used some kind of hacking technology to activate the lockdown.

My thought is that it is possibly something that was built by the humans from the plans given.

I also think that the guy in "the mustard coloured lab coat" has something to do with this, as he seemed too overjoyed by the aliens return.

[Bounty]

I think the scene with the PM may just be the most devastating Torchwood's ever done. Jesus Christ. "Your children will be inoculated"...

EDIT: strike that. Four shots. Like Laur said in the chat, that's BAFTA material.

[Dartzap]

That was easily one of the finest bits of sci-fi drama to have been seen on TV screens here for many, many years. Excellent produced, and apart from the odd cheesey moment, excellently acted as well.

[NecronLord]

Personally, by the end, I was annoyed by how absolutely spineless the humans all were. I was really expecting Frobisher to go back and put that bullet into the PM's brain, and tell his family to run for the fucking hills.

Also, yeah. Drugs. I'd imagine that'd make them much less willing to give in - the aliens will obviously keep coming back if they're hooked.

And the resolution, yeah, it was a DeM, as anticipated, but the "moral dilemma" seemed pretty forced - there was obviously nothing particularly unique about children - they could contact Clem, why couldn't they use an adult as the broadcast subject, instead? Say, the man who can't die.


I really think this showed its roots as a non-Torchwood script idea - UNIT was reduced to military guys who don't do much of jack (and didn't even wear MOPP 4 gear in the room with an alien that had just killed hundreds with a biological weapon, umm, yeah) - no options beyond 'capitulate' or 'die' were even mentioned - never mind that last time, UNIT chose 'die' over 'capitulate.' It would have been nice to at least see them try and contact the Doctor when that degree of shit hit the fan.

As a drama, yes, it worked, the people were pretty convincing.

As a plot, I found tonight's episode lacking, simply because of how spineless the humans were - the DeM could have been anything, aside from seeming to point out that Jack, despite his repentance about 'sacrificing one to save many' before, will do it again.

I'd rather have had Jesus Doctor turn up and save the day, than 'Jack kills his grandson because of variant on the old one or a million routine.'

[Lord Woodlouse]

Well, l thought that was awesome. Zaia was crying a lot through all that.

Supposedly RTD has plans for series 4, but l'm left wondering... how?!

One thing l have to ask... what does Stark think of this? (call it a morbid curiosity ).

[Bounty]

We tried to tell Stark about it in the chat and he seemed to have trouble processing the idea.

I really think this showed its roots as a non-Torchwood script idea

What was it a script idea for?

[NecronLord]

We tried to tell Stark about it in the chat and he seemed to have trouble processing the idea.

I really think this showed its roots as a non-Torchwood script idea

What was it a script idea for?

A stand alone miniseries.

[Big Orange]

I was also angry at Frobisher for taking the coward's way out of a solvable situation (like that other berk in The Mist). The government being cruel, double crossing, and spineless was not exactly out of the blue, considering how Her Majesty's government turned against it populace before in "Turn Left". The ending was not a genuine cop out, no more than in TNG's "The Best of Both Worlds" against another set of hive minded aliens, although RTD has painted himself into corner in regards to Torchwood since he has literally demolished the original show and Captain Jack is now in exile.

Torchwood's sudden upswing in quality is a direct inverse of Heroes' quality crash, and considering its critical and ratings success, the BBC and NuWho production team cannot just pull the plug on it. This was the best NuWho related story since "Midnight".

[Rye]

Well, l thought that was awesome. Zaia was crying a lot through all that.

Supposedly RTD has plans for series 4, but l'm left wondering... how?!

One thing l have to ask... what does Stark think of this? (call it a morbid curiosity ).

I would actually expect Stark to like it, even using words like "pathos" and "themes of utilitarian morality". Whether he will be convinced enough to watch something with a Torchwood brand mark is still up in the air. I expected it to be godawful and it really wasn't. If Torchwood the series had been this sort of "proper sci-fi" human ethical thought experiment (with goofy Who aliens) instead of the ribald pantomime we got, it could've been pretty good.

[Chris OFarrell]

Yeah, UNIT sitting around doing jack and shit was just annoying as hell. They could have -SHOULD have- been used a lot more effectively, doing a lot more stuff. Right up to the point of preparing to hit Earths self destruct. They were prepared to use it when the Daleks tore onto Earth after all. It would have been more interesting to see many nations flat out refuse to bow to the aliens demands like the UK did. Even more then that, I would have liked to see huge chunks of nations military forces go into revolt as the story became known thanks to Torchwood leaking, flat out refusing to carry out their orders as the truth becomes known and instead of seeing solders go house to house looking for kids, we see soldiers getting ready to stage a rather violent change in Government in the UK.

And no-one even appaers to bring up the possibility that the aliens can't be trusted. I mean they have already broken their promise to stay away and they have come back asking for *millions* of Children now! Why in the hell should we expect that they won't come back and just ask for more again? And again? And again? And frankly it would have been a more interesting dilemma to see UNIT ready to blow the whole damn planet sky high, and the aliens as a result backing off as they won't risk losing everything, it all being a big bluff like the Blood control tech.

And I also got rather irritated with the US 3 star suddenly being in charge. "You don't give the orders Mr Grahem', not to the UK military. If that was a UNIT guy it would at least make sense if they HAD taken over. Annoying. Unless of course he WAS UNIT and I just missed that, it would make him a little less of an annoying character, still they did mention at the end he didn't get permission from the UN.

The lack of the Doctor is a big annoyance. I mean I can understand why they can't have him there for the dramatic side of things and the story, but I would have thought they would be asking every 20 seconds WHRE IS HE? 'Someone find me Jones and that phone of hers and GET HER CALLING THE DOCTOR NOW!'. Yes they kept going on about 'the reason the Doctor didn't show up is because he is ashamed, yada yada', but that is just a cheap cop-out.

Frankly, I think it would have been much more interesting to have it go like this;

Humanity as a whole says 'fuck you' to the aliens in the end but the UK doesn't, striking a deal where they give up all the kids collected -say 6 or 7 percent, and the rest live, but the rest of the Earths kids will die. But at the last second, Jack and Frobisher lead a Coup and tell the aliens to stuff it, denying them ANY kids at all, hoping, praying that they clearly can't just take the kids otherwise they would have done it, and this all might just be a cheap trick like the blood control.

In the end, that would be the crux of the story, humanity finally getting its shit together and telling the aliens to fuck off.

As for how it ends, you could then have the Doctor arrive if you wanted to and save the day, albeit with style, proud of how humanity once again has shown its awesomeness instead of its awfulness. Or you could have have a 'What Would the Doctor Do' moment (literally) when it looks like the only option is going to be his grandson, and come up with a brilliant idea so crazy it actually works.

Like calling for backup from the Space Cops; The Judoon with the realization that these guys are essentially using human kids engineered to produce a very very illegal drug Jack knows about, but also knows no-one knew the source of. Until now.

Ten minutes later a fleet of ships transmats into orbit.

"Illegal Narcotics trafficing; verdict guilty. Sentance death".
*lots of energy weapons fire against all the 456's*
"Case closed".

And a 10,000,000 credit fine to Earth for conspiracy to ship illegal narcotics...

[Lord Woodlouse]

Yeah, UNIT sitting around doing jack and shit was just annoying as hell. They could have -SHOULD have- been used a lot more effectively, doing a lot more stuff. Right up to the point of preparing to hit Earths self destruct. They were prepared to use it when the Daleks tore onto Earth after all. It would have been more interesting to see many nations flat out refuse to bow to the aliens demands like the UK did. Even more then that, I would have liked to see huge chunks of nations military forces go into revolt as the story became known thanks to Torchwood leaking, flat out refusing to carry out their orders as the truth becomes known and instead of seeing solders go house to house looking for kids, we see soldiers getting ready to stage a rather violent change in Government in the UK.

And no-one even appaers to bring up the possibility that the aliens can't be trusted. I mean they have already broken their promise to stay away and they have come back asking for *millions* of Children now! Why in the hell should we expect that they won't come back and just ask for more again? And again? And again? And frankly it would have been a more interesting dilemma to see UNIT ready to blow the whole damn planet sky high, and the aliens as a result backing off as they won't risk losing everything, it all being a big bluff like the Blood control tech.

And I also got rather irritated with the US 3 star suddenly being in charge. "You don't give the orders Mr Grahem', not to the UK military. If that was a UNIT guy it would at least make sense if they HAD taken over. Annoying. Unless of course he WAS UNIT and I just missed that, it would make him a little less of an annoying character, still they did mention at the end he didn't get permission from the UN.

The lack of the Doctor is a big annoyance. I mean I can understand why they can't have him there for the dramatic side of things and the story, but I would have thought they would be asking every 20 seconds WHRE IS HE? 'Someone find me Jones and that phone of hers and GET HER CALLING THE DOCTOR NOW!'. Yes they kept going on about 'the reason the Doctor didn't show up is because he is ashamed, yada yada', but that is just a cheap cop-out.

Frankly, I think it would have been much more interesting to have it go like this;

Humanity as a whole says 'fuck you' to the aliens in the end but the UK doesn't, striking a deal where they give up all the kids collected -say 6 or 7 percent, and the rest live, but the rest of the Earths kids will die. But at the last second, Jack and Frobisher lead a Coup and tell the aliens to stuff it, denying them ANY kids at all, hoping, praying that they clearly can't just take the kids otherwise they would have done it, and this all might just be a cheap trick like the blood control.

In the end, that would be the crux of the story, humanity finally getting its shit together and telling the aliens to fuck off.

As for how it ends, you could then have the Doctor arrive if you wanted to and save the day, albeit with style, proud of how humanity once again has shown its awesomeness instead of its awfulness. Or you could have have a 'What Would the Doctor Do' moment (literally) when it looks like the only option is going to be his grandson, and come up with a brilliant idea so crazy it actually works.

Like calling for backup from the Space Cops; The Judoon with the realization that these guys are essentially using human kids engineered to produce a very very illegal drug Jack knows about, but also knows no-one knew the source of. Until now.

Ten minutes later a fleet of ships transmats into orbit.

"Illegal Narcotics trafficing; verdict guilty. Sentance death".
*lots of energy weapons fire against all the 456's*
"Case closed".

And a 10,000,000 credit fine to Earth for conspiracy to ship illegal narcotics...

Sounds a bit wanky to me.

l agree it was a bit odd that they didn't make any attempt to call the Doctor, but l also think that would have ruined the story. So in the end it's only an idea to bring up simply to shoot down ("the 456 seem to be jamming the call!").

...and saying fuck you to a bunch of aliens who you have every reason to believe they can wipe our your entire species seems the height of idiocy. As does blowing up your entire planet to deny them that. lt's the very definition of cutting off your nose to spite your face. That's why l liked how the government handled it here, it was actually realistic. lt made sense, even if it was disgusting.

[NecronLord]

Sounds a bit wanky to me.

l agree it was a bit odd that they didn't make any attempt to call the Doctor, but l also think that would have ruined the story. So in the end it's only an idea to bring up simply to shoot down ("the 456 seem to be jamming the call!").

...and saying fuck you to a bunch of aliens who you have every reason to believe they can wipe our your entire species seems the height of idiocy. As does blowing up your entire planet to deny them that. lt's the very definition of cutting off your nose to spite your face. That's why l liked how the government handled it here, it was actually realistic. lt made sense, even if it was disgusting.

Except as of episode five, they're there for 'The Hit' - the one behaviour we can realistically project on them is that their demand will rise over time and they will be back again - and next time, they will want more. In short, they're going to kill our species anyway, and will never stop coming back. It's just a choice of whether we want to die quickly, or whether we want a long drawn out period of being farmed by aliens with those we surrender being tortured for eternity. Fuck that noise. I'd rather round up every child and shoot them to show the bastards our resolve.

If they'd wanted the 'sacrifice one to save millions' moral dilemma, I would have rather had them give some children carrying something they believe will poison the 456, rather than the way they did it, which seemed purely done to show that the universe hates Captain Jack, and wants him to suffer, which is yes, dramatic, but a bit unrealistic.

Rather like the PM taunting Frobisher with what's going to happen to his family - that'd be moronic. The entire family said the first thing they'd do there is grab the letter opener on the PM's desk, and put it through his eye, ring the family and tell them to run for the hills, then try and destroy every record of that order that could be found - real politicans may be spiteful bastards, but they're not generally stupid enough to taunt like that, while giving the guy an opportunity to speak to the public.
___

I'm also somewhat disappointed that the government hit-woman and her black-clad goons weren't officially said to have joined Torchwood at the end. If nothing else I'd have liked the finale to include that, preferably with the goons in the uniforms used by Torchwood 1's guards. Ideally with them putting the former Prime Minister/Frobisher/someone up against a wall somewhere in Canary Wharf and excecuting them for this.

I can see it now. "By Order-in-Council of Her Majesty's Most Honourable Privy Council, the Torchwood Institute is instructed to re-open its operational base in the City of London, under the command of Agent Jane Johnson" (It is actually quite scary how much power the somewhat secretive Queen's Privy Council actually has, they could certainly do that)

Because Torchwood being down to one - apparently even the guy in Torchwood Glasgow was killed, according to an email in part 1 of this - is... a bit much.

[Lord Woodlouse]

Except as of episode five, they're there for 'The Hit' - the one behaviour we can realistically project on them is that their demand will rise over time and they will be back again - and next time, they will want more. In short, they're going to kill our species anyway, and will never stop coming back. It's just a choice of whether we want to die quickly, or whether we want a long drawn out period of being farmed by aliens with those we surrender being tortured for eternity. Fuck that noise. I'd rather round up every child and shoot them to show the bastards our resolve.

What the fuck does "showing the bastards our resolve" achieve?

I think your solution is, frankly, twisted. Some chance is better than no chance. We get ourselves killed and we're without options. I don't give a flying fuck if we showed any entity "our resolve" in the process. We'd be dead. A dead person with great resolve aint worth much.

While I certainly don't trust the 456 as far as we can throw them, there's at least some reason to believe this number would be satisfactory to them. Last time we gave them a bus-load of kids, that's obviously not going to satiate an entire species. 10% of our children, however, might. Especially given the species seems to have incredible powers of preservation.

If they'd wanted the 'sacrifice one to save millions' moral dilemma, I would have rather had them give some children carrying something they believe will poison the 456, rather than the way they did it, which seemed purely done to show that the universe hates Captain Jack, and wants him to suffer, which is yes, dramatic, but a bit unrealistic.

*shrug* Why is it unrealistic? He's the Earth's biggest expert on alien life with a history in fighting them, the circumstances of having his grandson there flowed together as well as any scripted story could hope to. The whole frequency/resonance thing was established from the start to be an aspect of this species. Biological warfare, on the other hand, was shown to be something they were pretty frickin' well adept at. None of it really rubbed me the wrong way in terms of story.

Rather like the PM taunting Frobisher with what's going to happen to his family - that'd be moronic. The entire family said the first thing they'd do there is grab the letter opener on the PM's desk, and put it through his eye, ring the family and tell them to run for the hills, then try and destroy every record of that order that could be found - real politicans may be spiteful bastards, but they're not generally stupid enough to taunt like that, while giving the guy an opportunity to speak to the public.

It would have been far more satisfying to see Frobisher flip out and kill the PM, but not neccecarily more realistic. His response was, actually, exactly what I would expect from a man like him.
___

I'm also somewhat disappointed that the government hit-woman and her black-clad goons weren't officially said to have joined Torchwood at the end. If nothing else I'd have liked the finale to include that, preferably with the goons in the uniforms used by Torchwood 1's guards. Ideally with them putting the former Prime Minister/Frobisher/someone up against a wall somewhere in Canary Wharf and excecuting them for this.

*shrug* It would be nice to see her join TW (I still hope she does, if they make a new series) but executing government superiors isn't exactly their style. Arresting them, maybe...

[PREDATOR490]

Watched it and found it excellently done for the most part.

As for the Doctor, supposedly Martha was on her honeymoon to justify her absence but that quickly became bullshit after things started to escalate. UNIT would logically have hauled Martha's ass back and got her to phone the Doctor non-stop. Although my liking of the Doctor has rapidly diminished now considering he hasnt given UNIT the ability to contact him and his performance over the new series.

What, only his washout companions get that privilage ?
What about Sarah Jane and K-9 ?

Part Five's camera bullshit about the Doctor was exactly that. The irony is the Doctor either simply dosent care to help, cant or wont help and it makes Harriot Jones right in her viewpoint.

Although, I wont be suprised if the next Doctor Who special attempts to justify why the Doctor never turned up and what Martha was doing at the time. Could this be why the special is rumoured to have all the companions in it again, that way Martha wasnt actually around during these events to contact him etc. ?

[Lord Woodlouse]

Watched it and found it excellently done for the most part.

As for the Doctor, supposedly Martha was on her honeymoon to justify her absence but that quickly became bullshit after things started to escalate. UNIT would logically have hauled Martha's ass back and got her to phone the Doctor non-stop. Although my liking of the Doctor has rapidly diminished now considering he hasnt given UNIT the ability to contact him and his performance over the new series.

What, only his washout companions get that privilage ?
What about Sarah Jane and K-9 ?

Part Five's camera bullshit about the Doctor was exactly that. The irony is the Doctor either simply dosent care to help, cant or wont help and it makes Harriot Jones right in her viewpoint.

Although, I wont be suprised if the next Doctor Who special attempts to justify why the Doctor never turned up and what Martha was doing at the time. Could this be why the special is rumoured to have all the companions in it again, that way Martha wasnt actually around during these events to contact him etc. ?

lt makes far more sense, l think, to simply say that the 456 somehow blocked communications. lt's just something that would have needlessly detracted from the plot.

[NecronLord]

What the fuck does "showing the bastards our resolve" achieve?

For all we know, it's blood control, and the kids will break it when they get hungry. That's not my solution, shit for brains. It's a last resort that is still better than giving the drug addicts what they want. They're druggies. If they find a reliable supply, they will be back. That is what druggies do. They want more drugs. That is why it's called addiction.

Frankly, shooting all the kids (which is obviously a last resort if the 456 have some means of taking the kids - a bullet through the brain is considerably better than immortal torture) will demonstrate that they will never get what they want from Earth. And when the next set of children are born, the 456 will have no reason to think we'll hand them over.

It wasn't originally a Whoverse story, and that rather shows with the sheer unpreparedness for aliens. There are dozens of other things they could have done - what, we're supposed to believe that Martha Jones being on honeymoon prevents them calling the Doctor? AHAHAHAH. Where was she, in some luddite Himalayan monastery? Wait, no, they could still get to her there on day one, even if they had to get a high altitude plane and parachute messengers. Never mind that she's not the only one with means of contacting him.

But no, there are very few things worse than giving them what they want. Mass infanticide is not one of them.

I think your solution is, frankly, twisted. Some chance is better than no chance. We get ourselves killed and we're without options. I don't give a flying fuck if we showed any entity "our resolve" in the process. We'd be dead. A dead person with great resolve aint worth much.

Which is better than eventually, 100% of the species being rendered immortal, immobile, and subject to eternal sensory deprivation. Which is what happens to those they take. They are addicts. They will want more. That is what addicts do.

Certainly there's every possibility that they'd be stopped by an external force - or that the entire Earth would be cyberconverted by the time they came back, whereupon they'd be crushed by the cybermen we've been made into, or something equally amusing, but from the 'moral dilemma' of 'do we give them the kids' - yeah, they've a neat trick in making the children talk, but they can't afford to kill their supply, they have shown very limited technology (by known galactic standards) in not being able to get the kids themselves, and want to cause literally infinite suffering. There is every possibility they're bluffing, or don't even have the means to wipe out the Earth.

While I certainly don't trust the 456 as far as we can throw them, there's at least some reason to believe this number would be satisfactory to them.

No there isn't. They didn't even try and claim that this would be their last batch. No one even asked (for whatever the 456's word is worth).

Last time we gave them a bus-load of kids, that's obviously not going to satiate an entire species. 10% of our children, however, might. Especially given the species seems to have incredible powers of preservation.

Bollocks. Over forty five years they went from 12 to over a hundred million. And you think they won't want more, despite their lack of even saying they don't want more?

*shrug* Why is it unrealistic? He's the Earth's biggest expert on alien life with a history in fighting them, the circumstances of having his grandson there flowed together as well as any scripted story could hope to. The whole frequency/resonance thing was established from the start to be an aspect of this species.

No it wasn't. They can make children talk. They also made Clem talk. For all we know, they can make anyone talk, or for all we know, it was being done with one device sitting on their bridge with a big threatening button, and all a feedback should achieve is making a warning light activate. It's a DeM, it's no more established than any other DeM. What's more, there was never said to be any means of backward flow. The writers put that in, just because they wanted Jack to kill his grandson, because it's dramatic. It doesn't flow from the plot, it is a deus-ex-machina. And like any deus-ex-machina, they just put it in during the last ten minutes.

And they did it to literally incarnate one of these trite 'torture one child to save millions of people' 'quandries.' Yes, dramatic. It took me completely and jarringly out of SoD though.

Biological warfare, on the other hand, was shown to be something they were pretty frickin' well adept at. None of it really rubbed me the wrong way in terms of story.

They were also shown to be pretty well adapt at making funky noises come out of children, but that's how they killed the fucking thing, too. Why couldn't the 456 answer with a kill pulse for that?

Because it's a DeM, it works precisely how the writer wants, to be convinient for the plot. A bio-weapon, a bomb, or something similar is no more unrealistic than anything else. Actually, take back bio-weapon. Putting a bomb in a child the way they blew up Torchwood would at least be foreshadowed, rather than a complete DeM. Oh, and creepier to boot.

It would have been far more satisfying to see Frobisher flip out and kill the PM, but not neccecarily more realistic. His response was, actually, exactly what I would expect from a man like him.

There's no disputing taste. I found it absurd and unrealistic that he would casually take that from the guy he's been killing for, after promises to the contrary that his family would be unharmed. Never mind that it was pointless sadism from the PM. What, was that Prime Minister also the Master? Why did he do that? What possible reason could he want to kill Frobisher's, who's been loyal to a fault, family?

That scene was no more explained then Clem being able to smell homosexuality.

*shrug* It would be nice to see her join TW (I still hope she does, if they make a new series) but executing government superiors isn't exactly their style. Arresting them, maybe...

Superiors? The PM isn't above the law. His activities were outright treasonous.

Torchwood is supposed to be an autonomous branch of the government answerable only to the Queen. "Outside the government, beyond the police" ring a bell? As of Christmas Invasion, the Prime Minister was not even officially allowed to know Torchwood existed! The PM pretty obviously isn't their superior.